schlimm 1. Amtrak is not an Exxon Mobil or Microsoft, answerable to investors. It is a quasi-government public corporation answerable to the people through Congress. You now want to privatize? That's my point...it is not a private company answerable to investors, it is a quasi-government public entity, so don't expect the same conduct. I'm not advocating it be privatized, in fact I don't think it would be a good idea because it won't be independent of government subsidies. What I do think should be done is that Congress operate it as a private enterprise would be operated allowed to plan for and be funded for normal business timing instead of what a Congressman needs to do or say to make in through the next election. As is, it cannot be anything more than as it is! 2. You do not understand loss-leader concept in retailing. It is used to attract customers at a loss so they will buy other, profitable items. The rest of the operation makes a profit so that the net is an increase in profit. Food and beverage service is primarily on long distance and only increases the LD loss. The point here is that you've got to provide the amenities to attract and hold customers. Eliminating sleeping cars and dinning cars sets American passenger rail even further back than it already is. Greyound bus's and the first Erie train from Piermont to Dunkirk had to stop every couple of hours to feed the people and at dark to allow them a hotel room to sleep in! For God's sake this in 2014 not 1849! 3. Passenger rail advocacy that misses the point of a public passenger service does not advance the agenda because it is mired in outmoded nostalgic concepts of 60 years ago. So, what are you saying here? That's exactly what I am saying. And others who advocate rail passenger services. Yeah, America lives on nostalgia and complaints and puts anyone down who advocates progress as communists, socialist, or anti American in some way. Sorry about the political names, but, that what the anti progressives say not understanding the roles of business and government as separate intertwined entities dependent on each other for success. And progress.
1. Amtrak is not an Exxon Mobil or Microsoft, answerable to investors. It is a quasi-government public corporation answerable to the people through Congress. You now want to privatize?
That's my point...it is not a private company answerable to investors, it is a quasi-government public entity, so don't expect the same conduct. I'm not advocating it be privatized, in fact I don't think it would be a good idea because it won't be independent of government subsidies. What I do think should be done is that Congress operate it as a private enterprise would be operated allowed to plan for and be funded for normal business timing instead of what a Congressman needs to do or say to make in through the next election. As is, it cannot be anything more than as it is!
2. You do not understand loss-leader concept in retailing. It is used to attract customers at a loss so they will buy other, profitable items. The rest of the operation makes a profit so that the net is an increase in profit. Food and beverage service is primarily on long distance and only increases the LD loss.
The point here is that you've got to provide the amenities to attract and hold customers. Eliminating sleeping cars and dinning cars sets American passenger rail even further back than it already is. Greyound bus's and the first Erie train from Piermont to Dunkirk had to stop every couple of hours to feed the people and at dark to allow them a hotel room to sleep in! For God's sake this in 2014 not 1849!
3. Passenger rail advocacy that misses the point of a public passenger service does not advance the agenda because it is mired in outmoded nostalgic concepts of 60 years ago.
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All well and good. I personally believe Congress is totally dysfunctional. But the requirement that Amtrak break even (not "profitable food service") has been the law of the land for 23 years. Lobby to change the law if you wish. Why can't those of you who want the current food and beverage service maintained or improved simply agree that the passengers who choose to use it should simply pay the full cost? What is so sad, political, or unrealistic about that? Why conflate the survival of Amtrak LD service with a highly subsidized food and beverage service? We all make choices about whether to eat out, choices of meals and what we wish to pay everyday. Why is Amtrak food and beverage service some "sacred cow" that has to eat up subsidy dollars that could be used for better LD services?
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Does the Congressional 'food service' make money for the US?
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
I am confusing nothing. My point is that Amtrak is a Congressional football and that that Congress therefore passes legislation and ignores it for their own well being. The don't have to mean what they say or what they pass so they often ignore for their own benefit at any given time, especially for public show du jour.
As for providing food service. Sit on a train for 4, 10, 18, 24 hours...don't you get hungry or tired...need food and sleep? So those services should be made available. And at the least expensive price (not cost) to the traveler so that he will buy your train fare at the price you are charging. Thus, food service and or sleeping quarter service might become a loss leader in retail trade terms.
But we have another bugaboo here. Government agency. To provide for the most public good. So, by keeping cars off the roads for long distance travel could be cutting down on fuel consumption, air pollution, and promoting driver and passenger safety while relieving wear, tear, and congestion on the public highways. The government(s) own and operate the highways and roads, so anything they can do to help relieve congestion, lengthen the life of the plant, lessen the negative environmental impacts, and at a cheaper cost, would be important. We cannot look at running trains as a hobby or being done for just the sake of running trains. We have to look at the benefits it brings to the rest of the transportation system and to society. Since it is something no private railroad in this country wants to do...not tourist train services or museum rides...then the government has to step in to do it. Yeah, there are many willing to operate passenger trains and services for a price, but they will charge their costs plus a profit, and a government agency will be asked to cover the losses. So that's not the answer, the government still pays the difference so it is smoke and mirror financing.
What has to change is that Amtrak has to be set free from Congressional hovering with short term goals and financing and given enough money to meet long term goals and needs. Esso Mobile,GE, IBM, Microsoft, Disney, ...all these companies working on plans and programs stretching out 5, 10, 15 or more years and not just to the next Congressional election.
ACYQ: "Why do you lose money selling food on trains?" A: "We shouldn't and we won't." That does not respond to the question and doesn't provide the explanation asked for. It does not explain the "why". It is a response that plays right into the hands of those who want simple answers to questions that are too nuanced for that. IMHO, simple answers appeal mostly to simpletons. If Amtrak gave such a mealy-mouthed answer to this question, then Amtrak is guilty of allowing false assumptions to rule the "discourse". It is true that the law creating Amtrak stipulated that the Company would be a "for profit" enterprise. However, everybody who is awake knows that was a pipe dream from the start, just as it is naïve to think the Highway Trust Fund alone can support our highway system. I'm not sure how to solve these problems, but I'd sure like to see some honesty in the discussion for a change.
I don't disagree with a single thing you say.
I'd just say that the game that Amtrak is playing, the game the advocacy community want them to play, the game the public thinks they're playing, and the game that would provide the best value for the cost are wildly different - but shouldn't be!
I'd also add that Boardman has been doing a pretty good job of trying to align some of these things of late. He seems to know the growth market for Amtrak is corridors and has been drawing bright lines between that work and the LD trains. He makes no bones about the financial reality of the LD trains and has basically told Congress to "put up or shut up."
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
You want nicer food? Pay for the full cost yourself. Amtrak is in the transportation business, not for subsidizing folks to have a mid-level dinner.
Yes, I remember well the cuts that were in effect in 1982--the service in the long distance trains was like that in McDonald's--you paid up front, and the food was little better, if at all, than what you would find at a fast food restaurant. The meals on the Boston section of the Lake Shore Limited and on the City of New Orleans were much better.
Johnny
henry: You confuse the legislation to start Amtrak in 1970 with the bi-partisan legislation in 1981 to which I referred concerning food service only. Congress recognized the problems with the food operation in 1981 and included a provision to eliminate the deficit in Amtrak's onboard food and beverage operations and requiring Amtrak to at least break even. So Amtrak is statutorily required to break even.
I believe, along with most Americans who want rail passenger service, that Amtrak should be about providing passenger rail service, not a subsidized meal service. I also think 32 years to find a way to comply with federal law is 32 years too long. Perhaps the only way Amtrak will comply is is pull all its food and beverage service by the end of the year.
Schlimm! How can Amtrak comply with law when the individuals in Congress want things different than the law they created? It was silly for Congress to write that Amtrak was to make a profit when it was known that such service has never made profits for the majority of railroads? Or was it purposely written into the law knowing full well it could never happen and they could just rip up the tracks and sell the equipment to Mexico? We've had many good railroaders run Amtrak who have been ignored because Congress hasn't ponied up with the right money or attitude to make it work. Even the best politically savvy as well as people transportation oriented head of Amtrak...has walked thin lines and juggled with more than three items at once and he's just getting by. If there are "radical reforms" needed they have to come from Congress in the form of keeping hands off the operations but allocate the needed money for a long term commitment to rail passenger trains. Some Washington politicians like to kick around the idea they want to run things just like "real" businesses but they don't allow it to happen because they want complete success before they leave office.
So 32 years after the deadline, Amtrak is still unable or unwilling to comply with the law. Perhaps it is an indication of Amtrak's incompetence and suggests radical reforms are needed. Yet on here we continue to argue about sandwiches with lettuce?
The freight railroads' position on the future of Amtrak:
https://www.aar.org/newsandevents/Press-Releases/Documents/PRIIA%20reauthorization%20final%20June%202013.pdf
In July 2013, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit ruled that the performance metrics and standards developed under PRIIA were not enforceable. This decision invalidated (1) the metrics and standards, including those that measure on-time performance of Amtrak trains operating on host railroad tracks, financial metrics (e.g., requiring continuous year-over-year improvement in percentage of short-term avoidable operating cost covered by passenger-related revenue); (2) the corollary requirement that Amtrak incorporate those metrics and standards into its operating agreements with host railroads to the extent practicable.
Food service:
The report released by the Amtrak Inspector General disclosed that Amtrak lost $72 million on operating its food service in 2012 and expects its losses to spike to more than $80 million in 2013. The report continued to state that Amtrak could save more than $10 million annually by making incremental changes to its business model and another $51.4 million to $60.5 million annually through privatization of its food service operations. Amtrak’s food service losses totaled nearly $1 billion over the past 12 years. Both the Amtrak Inspector General and the U.S. Government Accountability Office (GAO) have previously highlighted major waste, fraud and abuse in Amtrak’s food and beverage service. Additionally, a federal law passed in 1981 mandated Amtrak break even on its food and beverage service by 1982. Despite this, Amtrak has failed to eliminate taxpayer subsidies on food service operations and has instead doubled down by bringing on celebrity chef to create gourmet meals. Every Amtrak long-distance route and its food service operations are heavily subsidized by taxpayers, with some losing more than $400 per passenger ticket.
So instead `of a rational discussion of the three points, you prefer to engage in some generalities that do not remotely address the issues? Perhaps that is the sort of intransigence Paul M. refers to from the advocacy crowd.
#4 Subsidies for sleepers and food service would be far better spent on increased passenger rail service between non-served and under served areas.
Congress and its anti Amtrak contingent. People who know nothing but who to know to get them elected. They are in the passenger rail business and do everything they can to make it fail because they don't understand the business. Doesn't matter what the law Congress enacted to create and charge Amtrak with running passenger trains...they didn't legislate how to provide service, just to run trains. They don't understand the concept of a business providing a service beyond just running trains in the case of rail passenger service. Again. look at my analogy of choosing a restaurant based on how it presents a sandwich.
This is not about idiots in Congress or anywhere else. [BTW calling people whose views you do not like idiots is a pretty counterproductive tactic.] It is about priorities.
#1 By law, Amtrak is required to break even on food services. So to do so is simply complying with existing law.
#2 The taxpaying public is probably willing to subsidize basic passenger rail service, but not willing to subsidize meals for 1st class passengers. I seriously doubt if they are willing to subsidize those who insist they must have sleepers, either.
#3 So rather than curtail either service, which together are responsible for most of the subsidy Amtrak needs, why is it not possible for sleeper and dining car patrons to pay their way fully, above what the coach passenger pays? To use your analogy, if I go to a restaurant and pay for a hamburger, I do not expect to be given a steak with all the trimmings, subsidized by the other patrons.
No, Oltmannd...this is more picking on Amtrak by people who know nothing about passengers, passenger trains, hostelry, feeding people, controlling people under sequestered conditions, marketing a product, making a product appealing and worth buying. They do know how to pick away at the most minute of costs in the total Federal Budget. As I've often said: go to a restaurant and order a sandwich and you receive a piece of meat between two slices of bread on a plate big enough to hold it. Tempting, appetizing, think you got your money's worth? Go to another restaurant and order the same sandwich and you get a piece of meat between two slices of bread with lettuce, maybe tomato, plus mustard, mayonnaise or butter, a slice of pickle on the side and a handful of chips. Which one do you remember as being the better sandwich and will go back again? Same thing with a long distance passenger train.
henry6This is another misguided and spiteful run at Amtrak by the idiots in our Congress who don't know anything about business, hostelry, restaurants, trains, people, moving people, and government. Their motto is simply "don't spend any money except for my salary and expense accounts". Sounds like they are saving money while saving the world when they are really costing more money while screwing up the way the world operates.
Not even close. What they said to Amtrak was, "Why do you lose money selling food on trains?". Amtrak responded, "We shouldn't and we won't."
Admittedly, this is really small stuff that might be worth more in good will than it costs. But, Amtrak is doing this unilaterally.
Perhaps they'd be better off keeping the trinkets and dropping the "meals included" - without dropping fares.
dakotafred oltmannd Looks penny-wise to me. How is it pound-foolish? The standard mantra of the NARP et. al. is that Amtrak needs more sleepers because they are "always full". Think there's anyone out there who will say "No USA Today? That's it! I'm flying now!"? C'mon, Don, we know you're penny-wise in your own travels between Atlanta and the Northeast, preferring air to an Amtrak sleeper. And would stick all us rail passengers in coach if you could. Thanks, but I think we'll look elsewhere for a consultant on First Class by rail!
oltmannd Looks penny-wise to me. How is it pound-foolish? The standard mantra of the NARP et. al. is that Amtrak needs more sleepers because they are "always full". Think there's anyone out there who will say "No USA Today? That's it! I'm flying now!"?
Looks penny-wise to me. How is it pound-foolish? The standard mantra of the NARP et. al. is that Amtrak needs more sleepers because they are "always full". Think there's anyone out there who will say "No USA Today? That's it! I'm flying now!"?
Now, now.... I've ridden a bedroom in the CZ and Auto Train in recent years....
And, I would ride a roomette between Atlanta and Philly if only it were only somewhat more expensive than flying.
But, first class should pay it's full, long term variable cost. In what crazy world should something called "first class" be subsidized? If Ed Ellis can't make a go of it, should we subsidize him?
CMStPnP Ice Makers are not that expensive
Keeing them sanitized and filled with potable water is not cheap!
This is another misguided and spiteful run at Amtrak by the idiots in our Congress who don't know anything about business, hostelry, restaurants, trains, people, moving people, and government. Their motto is simply "don't spend any money except for my salary and expense accounts". Sounds like they are saving money while saving the world when they are really costing more money while screwing up the way the world operates.
NKP guyDoes anyone else remember or have any favorite free Amtrak amenity from their travels in First Class?
I remember riding Pullman on some of the better US trains in the early 1960's when service was still excellent, such as the CZ, 20th C,. City of Miami and Super Chief. No trinkets, no free wine and crackers. But there were fresh flowers in silver vases on the white table cloth in the dining car. In the mid 70s on the Amtrak versions of the Broadway and LSL, no trinkets. Everything costs money, even trinkets. In this case the taxpayers are footing the bill since the Amtrak long distance trains all are huge money losers.
Deggesty,
The small bottle of wine I was referring to (probably about 6 or 8 oz.) was invariably red, of decent quality, and was included in a box about eight inches square, which each passenger found on his seat or bed upon entering his roomette or bedroom. The cheeses were individually wrapped and included Laughing Cow brand, along with a few crackers. I'm familiar with the wine situation you describe and prefer the arrangement we had for years on The Lake Shore Limited.
Over the years I remember getting, on that train, not only wine & cheese kits, but very nice small black faux-leather overnight bags with an eyeshade, toothpaste, a brush, a comb, and maybe a shoehorn; we still use both our bags for other purposes. I have also received LS Ltd pins for my lapel. On The Capitol Limited I got the same wine & cheese kits and two fine, large glass mugs with the train's name embossed. We still use those mugs, just as we do my favorite free amenity from years ago, a pair of champagne flutes my wife and I received in our bedroom on The Silver Meteor when we went to Florida.
Does anyone else remember or have any favorite free Amtrak amenity from their travels in First Class?
NKP guy Cutting out various amenities and providing only a bare-bones roomette or bedroom, for what already strikes most passengers as an exorbitant amount of money, just looks cheap. It isn't generous, it doesn't offer customers something extra. I mean, really, how much does a newspaper or a small box of cheeses and/or a tiny bottle of wine cost? No matter what it costs, what percent is that of the total cost of a ticket? For goodness sakes, it's better to raise ticket prices by $3 or $4 and look generous, then to be Scrooge-like and begrudge. What would be next? The bag of ice at the end of the sleeper? The plastic cups? The train is already a few hours late; is it too much to ask for a complimentary newspaper to read as we sit here in the hole waiting for the freight trains to pass us by?
Cutting out various amenities and providing only a bare-bones roomette or bedroom, for what already strikes most passengers as an exorbitant amount of money, just looks cheap. It isn't generous, it doesn't offer customers something extra. I mean, really, how much does a newspaper or a small box of cheeses and/or a tiny bottle of wine cost? No matter what it costs, what percent is that of the total cost of a ticket? For goodness sakes, it's better to raise ticket prices by $3 or $4 and look generous, then to be Scrooge-like and begrudge. What would be next? The bag of ice at the end of the sleeper? The plastic cups?
The train is already a few hours late; is it too much to ask for a complimentary newspaper to read as we sit here in the hole waiting for the freight trains to pass us by?
"Tiny bottle of wine"? If you get one, you pay for it, in the diner or in the lounge car. At the wine tastings, a small amount is poured into your glass from a standard bottle for each wine (usually three) that is tasted. Any that is left over in a bottle is given to the passenger who is able answer a question about train operation. Also, those who take part in the wine tasting have the opportunity to buy a whole bottle of each type that was tasted.
Agree with raising ticket prices to cover it. Look how many people pay Allstate more for the free "good drivers bonus check" even with their agent disclosing the scam to them?
Anyways, anyone knows what the deal is with some Superliner sleepers NOT having an ICE MAKER? Encountered that on the Capital Limited. On the way there we had a functioning Ice Maker drawer in the center of the car where the juice station is. On the way back.........no drawer? We had to walk all the way to the Cafe Car to ask for Ice. Ice Makers are not that expensive, maybe next time we will pack one and sell the ice to other passengers from our compartment.
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