Let us examine a possible way Amtrak is handling this problem.
1. Move as quickly as possible P -40s & P-42s to the affected area.
2. Maybe remove one P-42 off the lakeshores and NH - Springfield runs.
3. Place several sets of 2 P-42s back to back.
4. fuel to capacity these locos.
5. Add loco sets to front of electric motors of trains at NYP & New Haven. Keep diesel locos off line with diesels operating the electrics until near dead section.
6. Start diesels, lower electric pans and pull thru dead section.
7. raise electric pans & shut down diesels to save fuel.
8. At NYP & NH remove diesels & position them to pull a train the other way.
The above will allow qualified Carmen to quickly remove and add diesels at each location. There may be a need for a couple electrics at NYP to shift the dead diesels ? ?
blue streak 1 Let us examine a possible way Amtrak is handling this problem. 1. Move as quickly as possible P -40s & P-42s to the affected area. 2. Maybe remove one P-42 off the lakeshores and NH - Springfield runs. 3. Place several sets of 2 P-42s back to back. 4. fuel to capacity these locos. 5. Add loco sets to front of electric motors of trains at NYP & New Haven. Keep diesel locos off line with diesels operating the electrics until near dead section. 6. Start diesels, lower electric pans and pull thru dead section. 7. raise electric pans & shut down diesels to save fuel. 8. At NYP & NH remove diesels & position them to pull a train the other way. The above will allow qualified Carmen to quickly remove and add diesels at each location. There may be a need for a couple electrics at NYP to shift the dead diesels ? ?
Is this what they are doing or what you think they should be doing?
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Henry: Just one possible way to make a bad situation tolerable. I am sure something else is probably being done. One other possibility is to use just one diesel with a cab car attached ?
blue streak 1 Let us examine a possible way Amtrak is handling this problem. ... 5. Add loco sets to front of electric motors of trains at NYP & New Haven. Keep diesel locos off line with diesels operating the electrics until near dead section. 6. Start diesels, lower electric pans and pull thru dead section. 7. raise electric pans & shut down diesels to save fuel. 8. At NYP & NH remove diesels & position them to pull a train the other way. The above will allow qualified Carmen to quickly remove and add diesels at each location. There may be a need for a couple electrics at NYP to shift the dead diesels ? ?
...
Do Amtrak diesels and electrics MU with each other?
BroadwayLion MidlandMikeAnother poster said that PRR built in redundancies to keep their cat system from coming to a halt. I recall the MetroNorth NH line cat was rebuilt to modern 60 Hz standards. Apparently they skipped on back-up systems. There *IS* a redundant circuit. It was taken out of service with the permission of the Railroad for scheduled upgrades. Airport towers to not use a tiny fraction of the power that the Metro North main line consumes. Even house of LION has back-up power. In New Zealand it took FIVE WEEKS to repair a similar (somewhat smaller) cable. ROAR
MidlandMikeAnother poster said that PRR built in redundancies to keep their cat system from coming to a halt. I recall the MetroNorth NH line cat was rebuilt to modern 60 Hz standards. Apparently they skipped on back-up systems.
There *IS* a redundant circuit. It was taken out of service with the permission of the Railroad for scheduled upgrades. Airport towers to not use a tiny fraction of the power that the Metro North main line consumes. Even house of LION has back-up power.
In New Zealand it took FIVE WEEKS to repair a similar (somewhat smaller) cable.
ROAR
Another poster wondered if one cable was so near capacity, that taking the other off line may have caused the overload. For redundancy, I was thinking along the lines of what other posters have said about jumpers to adjoining power blocks.
I know the airport tower would not need a very high powered back-up system, but my point was that an entire airport is like a small city, and would need a lot of back-up, or multiple feeds from the grid.
MidlandMike Do Amtrak diesels and electrics MU with each other?
Sorting through conjecture and a little bit of known fact, augmented by YouTube video segments to verify locomotive consists...
It looks like the favored tool by Amtrak is a pair of P32s or P42s pulling the entire train, supplying HEP as well. HHP8s were specifically equipped so that their controls could be used to operate diesels (on power jumpers from the diesels?). It appears that at least some AEM7s are also so capable. What's not known to me is whether P42s and P32s can control AEM7s or HHP8s, with the necessary controls to raise and lower pantographs. New Haven to New York is less than 100 miles, so fueling could be handled easily at New Haven, where Amtrak already has a diesel shop and platforms equipped for adding and removing locomotives in a hurry.
At least some trains are not affected much. The Vermonter, which runs behind diesels north of New Haven anyway, was only a few minutes late to Vermont stations on Friday. A YouTube video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7J060-baOck shows the southbound Vermonter at Stamford CT with a pair of P42s, an AEM7, an HHP8 and the usual Friday six car train of ex-Metroliner cab car, 4 coaches and Amcafe.
Acelas will be running today under wire with a temporary feed, as will some MNCR trains. Regionals will continue to get diesel power until one of the permanent feeders is restored.
MidlandMikeI know the airport tower would not need a very high powered back-up system, but my point was that an entire airport is like a small city, and would need a lot of back-up, or multiple feeds from the grid.
Richardton Airport does not have any Electricity. It has a wind sock, it has some metal sign thingies to delineate the (grass) runway, and it has an insurance policy. That's it. Maybe a plane lands there once every two or three hears, but it is still a licensed airport. It is on our land, and our business manager is the airport manager, and gets all of the official information that the FAA sends out to airport managers. If you want to land you must first buzz the runway to move the cows aside. Once on the ground you are on your own for ground transportation and for the contracting of a fuel delivery of some sort.
I know that I am pulling your leg, but it was ripe for the pulling. This airport saves the city of Richardton from paying the much higher County Airport Tax, and that is really all it needs to do.
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blue streak 1 Henry: Just one possible way to make a bad situation tolerable. I am sure something else is probably being done. One other possibility is to use just one diesel with a cab car attached ?
It appears Amtrak is doing its damndest to make things work with all the equipment, facilities and manpower they have available and in cooperation with MNRR and ConDot. It appears that it is the main feeder from Con Ed at Mt. Vernon east Sub Station failed while the back up or alternate feed is off line for total rehabilitation and rebuild. On Sunday, MNRR and Con Ed installed new but lesser feeder capability which does, however, allow for MNRR to provide up to 50% of normal service rather than the previous 33%. I am still not sure about the ability of the signal, switching, and communication systems at the moment...whether they get supplied separately or are being controlled and operated manually; yes, communication by radio does supercede all the old phone lines they used to use.
Signals are separately fed and were not affected.
i suspect most regionals are just running diesel Boston to either New Rochelle or Harold Tower at Woodside and changing locomotives.
Amtrak is electric Boston to Washington thanks to Acela but has diesel operation Boston to Albany and New Haven to Springfield. That does not mean they may or may not change locomotives at New Haven and run diesel to Boston on some trains.
More likely given the power situation, electric Boston - New Haven, diesel New Haven - Harold Tower (near Sunnyside Yard), and electric Harold Tower - Washington or Penn Station, whichever is the endpoint.
daveklepper More likely given the power situation, electric Boston - New Haven, diesel New Haven - Harold Tower (near Sunnyside Yard), and electric Harold Tower - Washington or Penn Station, whichever is the endpoint.
Up here in Providence, RI the regional trains are running with electrics so they must be swapping locomotives in New Haven.
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Let me get this straight. They depart NY with a Diesel and swap the Diesel for a motor (electric locomotive) at New Haven?
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
Paul Milenkovic Let me get this straight. They depart NY with a Diesel and swap the Diesel for a motor (electric locomotive) at New Haven?
When you put it that way....
Electrics are pulled through the "diesel district" by diesels without being removed at New York and New Haven. Diesels operate between NHV and NYP becouse that's where the carmen are.
rcdrye Diesels operate between NHV and NYP becouse that's where the carmen are.
Diesels operate between NHV and NYP becouse that's where the carmen are.
And the electric power ain't at the moment....
There are carman at Sunnyside. The only way diesels could run into PENN, New York, is if they are mu'd with electrics and shut down in the tunnel. The ventilation situation is even more critical in the E. River and Hudson R. tubes than in the Park Avenue tunnel, and Metro North did get itself in trouble when they ran FL9's into GCT without using third rail power. Harold Tower was the engine change point 1918-1935 before catenary was extended from Trenton to Sunnyside through Penn. Possibly regular practice during the emergency was to run diesels and electrics together, but a train coming from Boston or Springfield or New Haven with only diesel power would have to pick up an electric at Harold Tower to run into Penn.
The most economical (but time consuming) would be electric Boston - New Haven, diesel New Haven -Harold Tower, and electric Harold Tower - Wasnngton. The fastest way would be to put a diesel and electric together on each rain. Most Boston regionals do run through to Wshington.
Amtrak has some dual-service diesels, compatible with the LIRR third rail (using diesel power with third rail shoes raised between Croton Harmon and Manhattan). and a few of those may have been borrowed from the Empire service, where they normally haul all trains Albany - Penn Sta. and used on Boston trains. These dual service locomotive normally run on third ral only between about 57th Street and Penn Station, hauling passeners, but they do also run through the E. River tunnels to Sunnyside regularly in empty-train service movements.
henry6 Paul Milenkovic Let me get this straight. They depart NY with a Diesel and swap the Diesel for a motor (electric locomotive) at New Haven? When you put it that way....
Well, don't laugh. Where are the dual-mode diesel units based, and where does Amtrak typically operate them? If you have a limited supply of such units, even if you did not need to operate some of them in their normal service between the times they are used for 'emergency service', you would want to turn them as close to the New York region as practical. New Haven is an established change point; theoretically you could perform the change somewhere closer, but the amount of procedure change alone would likely outweigh any practical gains in the short time this operating expedient will need to be used.
It IS extraordinarily ironic, historically, though, isn't it?
I understand the Amtrak dual-modes are based at Albany-Rennsselaer. They can be maintained at Metro-North's Croton-Harmon facilitiy, since MN has similar power with only the third rail shoe different. They could be cycllng a unit or two Albany-Penn Sta-New Haven and then return.
Normal operations are expected Monday
...but wait...unless like the FL9's with dual third rail pick up, Amtrak's Hudson line dualies won't work.... could only be used to the east end of Sunnyside because the Boston Line is overhead cat. Probably not worth the effort unless just to pull trains to and from Sunnyside.
But Olt...the humor of changing from electric to diesel westbound and from diesel to electric eastbound at New Haven is that it is totally opposite the practice for almost a hundred years by both NH and Amtrak!
henry6 ...but wait...unless like the FL9's with dual third rail pick up, Amtrak's Hudson line dualies won't work.... could only be used to the east end of Sunnyside because the Boston Line is overhead cat. Probably not worth the effort unless just to pull trains to and from Sunnyside. But Olt...the humor of changing from electric to diesel westbound and from diesel to electric eastbound at New Haven is that it is totally opposite the practice for almost a hundred years by both NH and Amtrak!
I was going to point out the reversal of Historical practices on the Shoreline in my earlier post..
What I posted isn't rumor, there are NEC regionals running up here in New England with electric locomotives and I have seen a couple this week.
Where and when they switch to diesel I do not know...
Video footage and on-the-ground observers have both P32 (third rail capable) and P42 (diesel only) pairs in use. Engines are added at New Haven westbound without removing the electric locomotive. P32 pairs can run into Penn with no change, but it's quite plausible that P42s are removed/added near Sunnyside. Since the electric is already present it's a fairly simple move, as long as crew is available. The only real limitation for the diesels is that Sunnyside has limited fueling capability, with the P32's normally filled at Albany/Rennsalaer even though they are turned at Sunnyside, and P42s that serve Springfield line trains are normally fueled at New Haven. Amtrak has 18 P32AC/DMs for which a P42 is a good substitute west of ALB, and most trains have enough dwell time there to allow a change.
That's right, the P32 would work because of the 3rd rail to and from Sunnyside. Diesels can shut down in the tunnels and on Manhattan and the slow speed would be no problem with just the P32.
Just a question this post.
60 years ago NYC third rail format was called under-running; LIRR's was called over-riding.....had to do with whether the (electricity receiving metal contact from the train to the power source [third-rail]) shoe contacted (slid along) the top or bottom of the 3rd rail.
Has there been a conversion? Uniformity? 1 or 't'other?
P32s....That versatile? diesel/under running/over riding?
Whether the FL9s had an answer.....never thought about it.....
FL9's had both types. Am led to believe the P32's have the over riding 3rd rail shoe from Spuyten Devil to Sunnyside.
All P32's have retractable shoes using the same pneumatic arrangement. The key difference is in the shoes themselves that are shaped for either overrunning (top of rail) or underrunning (bottom of rail). Amtrak's P32s were designed with the intent that a dual purpose (under- or over-) running shoe could be fitted, but practice has been to fit an overrunning shoe and operate wit the shoes retracted in MNRC territory. Current MNRC rules prohibit operation of Amtrak power with the shoes in the operating position, so they are only used from Empire (about a mile from Penn Station) to Sunnyside. Amtrak's FL9s were acquired from Penn Central with fixed underrunning shoes but were later refitted with air-operated dual-purpose shoes and ran into GCT until 1991, with an occasional trip into Penn via the shore line and occasional operation into GCT after 1991.
The Maple Leaf arrived in Albany from Toronto tonght with a P42 instead of its usual P32, getting an engine change to a P32 in Albany. That might help explain where Amtrak got the extra pilot diesels.
And often the dual-modes ran through on the Lake Shore to Chicago, so by changing at Albany, they hav two more to run to New Haven.
No problem for them at Sunnyside. Once out of the tunnel in Long Island City, they switch back to diesel.
And Empire Service diesels routinely MUST go to Summyside, because of these trains are powered by single units, and there isn''t any way to turn them around at Penn.
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