When I was referring to FL-9's into Penn or GCT, I should have qualified with "on NYNH&H trains. Amtrak did runn Empire service trains into Penn with one FL-9 frequently.
It's very rare to see any Amtrak train on the Hudson line with more than one locomotive.
Whenever FL-9's ran to Penn, they were always two, back-to-back. But the horsepower was needed in any case for the grades on each side of the H. G. Bridge. But even GCT trains usually had two. But not always.
Horsepower is much greater for the new power, and some Empire Service trains do run with just one diesel. Or so the photos tele me.
The diesel sets were arranged back-to-back so turning wasn't an issue. What's impressive is the speed with which MNRC and Amtrak responded to deal with the power outage, and even more so the way they kept riders informed.
Empire service trains including the Ethan Allen are usually P32 powered even west of Albany. The Adirondack often gets a P42. Since the Lake Shore's P42s run Boston-Chicago they only hang around Albany in the evening. The Lake Shore's P42s are also the only ones that call at Boston South Station in regular service. The Downeaster has P42/CabBage push pull setup running from North Station. New Haven is still a diesel shop for Amtrak, with Springfield and Vermonter power based there.
YOu are correct, I should have written retractable, not non-retractable. Pardon.
I am certain the pure diesels used as pilots were cut off the train at Harold Tower and added to eastbounds, because of the lack of turning facilities at PENN. And of course Amtrak has refuling facilities (possibly owned by LIRR, since electrics continiued to switch Sunnyside long after LIRR replaced its steam with diesel) at Sunnyside, they use a number of diesel switchers there. The dual-modes ran through to Penn and then were on a Empire Service train to Albany. I believe all Empire service trains that ran west of Albany changed power there instead of running through. Actually, Amtrak was in a better position than MN because of a much larger pool of diesels.
As I remember, the loop at Sunnyside is at the WEST end of the yard. From Penn one takes a switch to the right of the LIRR main, goes under the main tracks at a right-angle, and then enters the yard from the EAST. But there is also a connecting track westbound off the main.
My Rabbinic teachers tell me the Eternal loves irony. Well replacing electric with diesel or even just adding diesel westbound at New Haven sure is irony! (But I don't blame the Eternal for the power outage.)
Both series of FL9s had air operated shoes as built. NH and later PC replace them with fixed shoes in the 1960s. They did have shoes that were supposed to work on either type of third rail. NYC had knock-off castings at Woodlawn to clip off shoes that hadn't dropped to a safe operating position. Trains had a number of articles on the FL9s documenting this over the years.
The FL-9's,all 60, originally had non-retractable double-sprung shoes that were desigined to work on both overruning and underruning third rail, and did work, as long as everything was maintained properly. They ran into Penn when a "Jet" EP-5 electric was not available, after the other electrics had been removed from service during the McGinnis-Alpert era.
daveklepper And often the dual-modes ran through on the Lake Shore to Chicago, so by changing at Albany, they hav two more to run to New Haven.
And often the dual-modes ran through on the Lake Shore to Chicago, so by changing at Albany, they hav two more to run to New Haven.
Current practice going back some years is that the through power to Chicago, usually a pair of P42s, comes in on the Boston section, get fueled and waits. When the New York section comes in with a P32, it cuts off and the Boston section pulls forward and backs onto the New York section. Coming in from the west, the Boston section cuts off by the shops north of the station and pulls in, then a P32 is put in front of the New York section and it pulls in on another track.
The Lake Shore does get any P32's heading for Beech Grove as extra power. The Empire Service trains usually get P32s exclusively. though P42s are around and used occasionally.
And Empire Service diesels routinely MUST go to Summyside, because of these trains are powered by single units, and there isn''t any way to turn them around at Penn.
No problem for them at Sunnyside. Once out of the tunnel in Long Island City, they switch back to diesel.
The Maple Leaf arrived in Albany from Toronto tonght with a P42 instead of its usual P32, getting an engine change to a P32 in Albany. That might help explain where Amtrak got the extra pilot diesels.
All P32's have retractable shoes using the same pneumatic arrangement. The key difference is in the shoes themselves that are shaped for either overrunning (top of rail) or underrunning (bottom of rail). Amtrak's P32s were designed with the intent that a dual purpose (under- or over-) running shoe could be fitted, but practice has been to fit an overrunning shoe and operate wit the shoes retracted in MNRC territory. Current MNRC rules prohibit operation of Amtrak power with the shoes in the operating position, so they are only used from Empire (about a mile from Penn Station) to Sunnyside. Amtrak's FL9s were acquired from Penn Central with fixed underrunning shoes but were later refitted with air-operated dual-purpose shoes and ran into GCT until 1991, with an occasional trip into Penn via the shore line and occasional operation into GCT after 1991.
FL9's had both types. Am led to believe the P32's have the over riding 3rd rail shoe from Spuyten Devil to Sunnyside.
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Just a question this post.
60 years ago NYC third rail format was called under-running; LIRR's was called over-riding.....had to do with whether the (electricity receiving metal contact from the train to the power source [third-rail]) shoe contacted (slid along) the top or bottom of the 3rd rail.
Has there been a conversion? Uniformity? 1 or 't'other?
P32s....That versatile? diesel/under running/over riding?
Whether the FL9s had an answer.....never thought about it.....
That's right, the P32 would work because of the 3rd rail to and from Sunnyside. Diesels can shut down in the tunnels and on Manhattan and the slow speed would be no problem with just the P32.
Video footage and on-the-ground observers have both P32 (third rail capable) and P42 (diesel only) pairs in use. Engines are added at New Haven westbound without removing the electric locomotive. P32 pairs can run into Penn with no change, but it's quite plausible that P42s are removed/added near Sunnyside. Since the electric is already present it's a fairly simple move, as long as crew is available. The only real limitation for the diesels is that Sunnyside has limited fueling capability, with the P32's normally filled at Albany/Rennsalaer even though they are turned at Sunnyside, and P42s that serve Springfield line trains are normally fueled at New Haven. Amtrak has 18 P32AC/DMs for which a P42 is a good substitute west of ALB, and most trains have enough dwell time there to allow a change.
henry6 ...but wait...unless like the FL9's with dual third rail pick up, Amtrak's Hudson line dualies won't work.... could only be used to the east end of Sunnyside because the Boston Line is overhead cat. Probably not worth the effort unless just to pull trains to and from Sunnyside. But Olt...the humor of changing from electric to diesel westbound and from diesel to electric eastbound at New Haven is that it is totally opposite the practice for almost a hundred years by both NH and Amtrak!
...but wait...unless like the FL9's with dual third rail pick up, Amtrak's Hudson line dualies won't work.... could only be used to the east end of Sunnyside because the Boston Line is overhead cat. Probably not worth the effort unless just to pull trains to and from Sunnyside.
But Olt...the humor of changing from electric to diesel westbound and from diesel to electric eastbound at New Haven is that it is totally opposite the practice for almost a hundred years by both NH and Amtrak!
I was going to point out the reversal of Historical practices on the Shoreline in my earlier post..
What I posted isn't rumor, there are NEC regionals running up here in New England with electric locomotives and I have seen a couple this week.
Where and when they switch to diesel I do not know...
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
I understand the Amtrak dual-modes are based at Albany-Rennsselaer. They can be maintained at Metro-North's Croton-Harmon facilitiy, since MN has similar power with only the third rail shoe different. They could be cycllng a unit or two Albany-Penn Sta-New Haven and then return.
Normal operations are expected Monday
henry6 Paul Milenkovic Let me get this straight. They depart NY with a Diesel and swap the Diesel for a motor (electric locomotive) at New Haven? When you put it that way....
Paul Milenkovic Let me get this straight. They depart NY with a Diesel and swap the Diesel for a motor (electric locomotive) at New Haven?
Let me get this straight. They depart NY with a Diesel and swap the Diesel for a motor (electric locomotive) at New Haven?
When you put it that way....
Well, don't laugh. Where are the dual-mode diesel units based, and where does Amtrak typically operate them? If you have a limited supply of such units, even if you did not need to operate some of them in their normal service between the times they are used for 'emergency service', you would want to turn them as close to the New York region as practical. New Haven is an established change point; theoretically you could perform the change somewhere closer, but the amount of procedure change alone would likely outweigh any practical gains in the short time this operating expedient will need to be used.
It IS extraordinarily ironic, historically, though, isn't it?
There are carman at Sunnyside. The only way diesels could run into PENN, New York, is if they are mu'd with electrics and shut down in the tunnel. The ventilation situation is even more critical in the E. River and Hudson R. tubes than in the Park Avenue tunnel, and Metro North did get itself in trouble when they ran FL9's into GCT without using third rail power. Harold Tower was the engine change point 1918-1935 before catenary was extended from Trenton to Sunnyside through Penn. Possibly regular practice during the emergency was to run diesels and electrics together, but a train coming from Boston or Springfield or New Haven with only diesel power would have to pick up an electric at Harold Tower to run into Penn.
The most economical (but time consuming) would be electric Boston - New Haven, diesel New Haven -Harold Tower, and electric Harold Tower - Wasnngton. The fastest way would be to put a diesel and electric together on each rain. Most Boston regionals do run through to Wshington.
Amtrak has some dual-service diesels, compatible with the LIRR third rail (using diesel power with third rail shoes raised between Croton Harmon and Manhattan). and a few of those may have been borrowed from the Empire service, where they normally haul all trains Albany - Penn Sta. and used on Boston trains. These dual service locomotive normally run on third ral only between about 57th Street and Penn Station, hauling passeners, but they do also run through the E. River tunnels to Sunnyside regularly in empty-train service movements.
rcdrye Diesels operate between NHV and NYP becouse that's where the carmen are.
Diesels operate between NHV and NYP becouse that's where the carmen are.
And the electric power ain't at the moment....
Electrics are pulled through the "diesel district" by diesels without being removed at New York and New Haven. Diesels operate between NHV and NYP becouse that's where the carmen are.
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
daveklepper More likely given the power situation, electric Boston - New Haven, diesel New Haven - Harold Tower (near Sunnyside Yard), and electric Harold Tower - Washington or Penn Station, whichever is the endpoint.
More likely given the power situation, electric Boston - New Haven, diesel New Haven - Harold Tower (near Sunnyside Yard), and electric Harold Tower - Washington or Penn Station, whichever is the endpoint.
Up here in Providence, RI the regional trains are running with electrics so they must be swapping locomotives in New Haven.
Amtrak is electric Boston to Washington thanks to Acela but has diesel operation Boston to Albany and New Haven to Springfield. That does not mean they may or may not change locomotives at New Haven and run diesel to Boston on some trains.
i suspect most regionals are just running diesel Boston to either New Rochelle or Harold Tower at Woodside and changing locomotives.
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