Due to the Con Ed feeder failure Metro North's New Haven Line has no overhead traction power. Amtrak's service bulletin states that Acelas are cancelled through Sunday, and extra cars are being added to regionals which are using Diesel power. Anyone have details on how this is being done? As far as I can remember Amtrak's traction power ends east of New Haven, and doesn't resume until west of New Rochelle. I assume trains are still required to enter Penn Station behind electrics.
Checking MetroNorth's website give you a better picture. Power is off west of Stamford to Woodhaven on MNRR and to wherever the break is between MNRR and AMtrak's line to Penn Sta. There are some dual service locomotives being used by MNRR I presume which can do the 3rd rail in to GCT. Amtrak is using diesels apparently between New Haven and NYP but not sure if they pull an electric to pan into NYP from some point. I posted on the Transit forum which might bring answers to your question RCDRYE.
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I wonder how the wire failures on the NEC compare in number and intensity to wire failures on other rail systems, i.e. Japan, France, Denmark, etc.?
Much of the cat on the NEC is an antique or of antiquated design compared to those in Europe or Asia.
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First...today's problem has nothing to do with the cat or Amtrak or MNRR. Con Ed, the power supplier failed and the railroads are at the mercy of the power company on this. Second, the cat in this area has been upgraded and the program is approaching New Haven at this time. LIkewise, catenary replacement programs are working south through NJ, too.
henry6 First...today's problem has nothing to do with the cat or Amtrak or MNRR. Con Ed, the power supplier failed and the railroads are at the mercy of the power company on this. Second, the cat in this area has been upgraded and the program is approaching New Haven at this time. LIkewise, catenary replacement programs are working south through NJ, too.
If the wire is de-energized, irrespective of the source, the wire has failed as an energy conduit. It is useless even if is hanging pretty.
One of the downsides of an electrified railway (heavy as well as light rail) is a major power failure usually brings the whole system to a halt. DART's light rail system has been shut down on several occasions during the past couple of years because of cat failures.
On the other hand, buses and airplanes, which are much more flexible than trains, can frequently work around an impediment. So too can diesel or other powered locomotives as long as they have an alternate route.
It appears Amtrak is using back-to back P32AC-DM pairs or P32AC-DM/P42 pairs to pull trains complete with AEM7s or HHP8s over the dark stretch. Though I haven't been able to confirm this I would bet the diesels are put on at New Haven and run right into Penn on third rail. That would make sense for where mechanical department folks would be available to minimize add/drop time. The main catch is the small size of the P32 pool.
You are being picky and anal in your criticism. Precisely, the catenary itself, physically, did not fail, MNRR did not fail, nor did Amtrak. Con Ed failed, its power feed failed while its back up system is off line for major overhaul. However, you should raise the question if it is wise for electric railroads to rely on purchased electricity or generate their own? or buy some and generate some? or buy from more than one supplier? or? If you are talking flexibility, then you must ask and answer these questions and act accordingly.
As for buses and planes being more flexible: yes. Same with automobiles and shoes. But the constant costs, etc. puts rail ahead of them in commuter instances and electric rail with speed and expense ahead of regular rail especially in commuter work as well as high speed long distance trains. An how flexible is a two mile long traffic jam or snow clogged roads on the ground or that snow storm or dense fog and high winds in the air?
And RCD, from what I've read on MNRR and Amtrak sites, Amtrak power is being changed at New Haven which is natural as they have facilities there and not anywhere closer to New York city...and they can stay out of the way of the MNRR traffic by running right through to and from New Haven.
henry6You are being picky and anal in your criticism. Precisely, the catenary itself, physically, did not fail, MNRR did not fail, nor did Amtrak. Con Ed failed, its power feed failed while its back up system is off line for major overhaul.
That tone is pretty rude, henry. What you say is like blaming the manufacturer of the generator on a diesel locomotive when it fails. It still means the system is not working. If Con Ed is unreliable, perhaps Amtrak and MNRR need to return to having their own power source, as the old NH did at Cos Cob?
I doubt Metro North,Amtrak or any other transit/rail operator in the NYC Metro area would be able to acquire the real estate or get through the permitting process to build a new power plant. As far as buying an existing one there are many utility operators with very deep pockets they would be bidding against.
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schlimm henry6You are being picky and anal in your criticism. Precisely, the catenary itself, physically, did not fail, MNRR did not fail, nor did Amtrak. Con Ed failed, its power feed failed while its back up system is off line for major overhaul. That tone is pretty rude, henry. What you say is like blaming the manufacturer of the generator on a diesel locomotive when it fails. It still means the system is not working. If Con Ed is unreliable, perhaps Amtrak and MNRR need to return to having their own power source, as the old NH did at Cos Cob?
But blaming the catenary for not having power instead of Con Ed for not feeding the power are two different pictures. The cat did not fail but the source did. I am being picky and anal, too. But the tone was to denigrate the concept of electric power for railroads as a specific as opposed to other modes of transportation in general.
carnej1 I doubt Metro North,Amtrak or any other transit/rail operator in the NYC Metro area would be able to acquire the real estate or get through the permitting process to build a new power plant. As far as buying an existing one there are many utility operators with very deep pockets they would be bidding against.
On the contrary, as far as being able to acquire real estate for power plants, I doubt there would be a problem....either use of former power station sites or other industrial sites, especially those already burdened with ground pollution. Look at the NJ Meadows for instance, first to mind is the old Coppers Coke land. And there actually is a lot of underdeveloped, undeveloped, abandoned, or otherwise available land space up and down the east coast (because I am only addressing NYC and possibly Philadelphia areas). And it might actually be a unique opportunity for investors and entrepreneurs: a generating station specifically designed to feed transportation services: MTA, Amtrak, MNRR, NJT, LIRR, LIRR, etc. Or it could be joint venture or consortium of the different users themselves. One venue producing and transmitting specific needs for each operation (I'm not going into the engineering aspects of transmitting different value power to specific locations as there are many solutions and applications, etc. which would be worked out according to the project). One, it could actually operate from several separate venues in part or in whole, with capabilities to feed each other or feed through. Two, it would allow the transportation electric system to be separate from public use and needs giving transportation the ability and freedom to function independent of general public power. It might or might not be part of the grid or grids...both a political as well as engineering issue.
Ah hem...
These are railroads. Transportation companies. They are not energy companies. The railroads used to generate power in the days when no other power was available. Today, for a zillion reasons, it is far better to buy power rather than to make power.
And even if they did make power, there could still be issues with cables, generators, and more.
ROAR
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Things evolve, revolve, are cyclical, and ever changing. Miniscule engineering problems and footnotes aside, it may be something to be looked at. In fact, NJT has already begun seeking solutions to power source problems...it is, therefore, not a stretch to invite MNRR, LIRR, SEPTA and Amtrak to the table.
BroadwayLion Ah hem... These are railroads. Transportation companies. They are not energy companies. The railroads used to generate power in the days when no other power was available. Today, for a zillion reasons, it is far better to buy power rather than to make power. And even if they did make power, there could still be issues with cables, generators, and more. ROAR
Which is why the closed CosCob in the first place.... It was hugely unreliable.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Cos Cob was old and overused. It was unreliable. But so what? A new generation generating station would be new. Cos Cob is history. Today is the beginning of the future.
One major reason for Cos Cob's unreliability was the poor management decisions (deferred or no maintenance and modernization) under the Mcginnis regime, a corporate pirate who was convicted later of accepting illegal kickbacks.
For many years the anti-trust law prevented railroads from generating there own juice...Interurbans were seperated from utlitys by a anti-trust law in 1935 which killed hundreds of interurbans... the law was repealed about 2 years ago.
What we've got here is an electrical circuit's failure to communicate..,..like this...the power feeder apparently is a generater/source to user and then back/ground. If the power went around in a circle with (phase breaks) placed frequently, power could enter from either or both ends of the circuit allowing short shuttle moves near the affected portions of failed feeder.
Neighbor, right next door, was on the bumping post of a short (distance/customer count) circuit from the mainline domestic source. Her house was without power during a severe Sierra foothills storm and its aftermath for 5 days after my and other main feeders were fed. Fixing her feed because she was one of 13 on that circuit was lesser priority than circuits with hundreds (of paying, follow the $) victims of the storm.
A circuit connected at both ends to grid that can have the damaged portion isolated and the ends of the circuit remaining functioning as out and back circuits.....
What part of no (brainer) isn't understood?
efftenxrfe What we've got here is an electrical circuit's failure to communicate..,..like this...the power feeder apparently is a generater/source to user and back/ground. If the power went around in a circle with (phase breaks) placed frequently, power could enter from either or both ends of the circuit allowing short shuttle moves near the affected portions of failed feeder. Neighbor, right next door, was on the bumping post of a short circuit from the mainline domestic source. Her house was without power during a severe Sierra foothills storm and its aftermath for 5 days after my and other main feeders were fed. Fixing her feed because she was one of 13 on that circuit was lesser priority than circuits with hundreds (of paying, follow the $) victims of the storm. A circuit connected at both ends to grid that can have the damaged portion isolated and the ends of the circuit remaining functioning as out and back circuits..... What part of no (brainer) isn't understood?
What we've got here is an electrical circuit's failure to communicate..,..like this...the power feeder apparently is a generater/source to user and back/ground. If the power went around in a circle with (phase breaks) placed frequently, power could enter from either or both ends of the circuit allowing short shuttle moves near the affected portions of failed feeder.
Neighbor, right next door, was on the bumping post of a short circuit from the mainline domestic source. Her house was without power during a severe Sierra foothills storm and its aftermath for 5 days after my and other main feeders were fed. Fixing her feed because she was one of 13 on that circuit was lesser priority than circuits with hundreds (of paying, follow the $) victims of the storm.
Yeah, we understand that. What's your point? Part one of the discussion is that Con Ed feeder lines failed and cut off the power supply to 8 miles of track for MNRR and Amtrak. Part 2 are comments about Cos Cob generating station built by the New Haven RR and finally owned and operated by MNRR befroe being taken out of service. Your comments don't seem to make sense to either of these conversations.
But on another note it does bring up a problem I have asked about in today's modern transportation electrc systems. The DL&W and the PRR both, I know, could jump power between sections so that there was never a really whole system failure like this where one segment kills the whole operation. Why do they design systems like this today when they had created systems without that problem a hundred years ago?
Henry -- $$ and political ignorance of the consequences if there is a failure of a critical feed. I seem to remember that not long ago The PRR Amtrak feed was compromised but Amtrak worked around the problem with some speed restrictions.
Henry6,
Grand evening. that my (point) included trolley, LTV. Classic MU commuter, and more.
Cos Cob, that you're sensitive and suggest that the NHRR powerplant, poor baby, is a victim of my right and then left coast life.
I asked why different circuits with different interrupters could not be permitting power to be fed in from both ends of the circuit?
efftenxrfe Henry6, Grand evening. that my (point) included trolley, LTV. Classic MU commuter, and more. Cos Cob, that you're sensitive and suggest that the NHRR powerplant, poor baby, is a victim of my right and then left coast life. I asked why different circuits with different interrupters could not be permitting power to be fed in from both ends of the circuit?
You are new around here . . .
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
Sam1 If the wire is de-energized, irrespective of the source, the wire has failed as an energy conduit. It is useless even if is hanging pretty. One of the downsides of an electrified railway (heavy as well as light rail) is a major power failure usually brings the whole system to a halt. DART's light rail system has been shut down on several occasions during the past couple of years because of cat failures. On the other hand, buses and airplanes, which are much more flexible than trains, can frequently work around an impediment. So too can diesel or other powered locomotives as long as they have an alternate route.
If an airport looses power, I presume there is a back-up for critical systems like the control tower, runway lights, etc. However, is there also back-up for terminals/ticketing/baggage handling/food service/etc. Without that the airport would cease to function.
Another poster said that PRR built in redundancies to keep their cat system from coming to a halt. I recall the MetroNorth NH line cat was rebuilt to modern 60 Hz standards. Apparently they skipped on back-up systems.
Electric powered rail is appropriate for both ATK and commuter lines in Manhattan because of long tunnels.
MidlandMikeAnother poster said that PRR built in redundancies to keep their cat system from coming to a halt. I recall the MetroNorth NH line cat was rebuilt to modern 60 Hz standards. Apparently they skipped on back-up systems.
There *IS* a redundant circuit. It was taken out of service with the permission of the Railroad for scheduled upgrades. Airport towers to not use a tiny fraction of the power that the Metro North main line consumes. Even house of LION has back-up power.
In New Zealand it took FIVE WEEKS to repair a similar (somewhat smaller) cable.
I am sorry, but I don't understand what you are saying. Do you know what Cos Cob was? Do you know the operations of MNRR and Amtrak today versus the operations under NYC and NH of 40 years ago? You seem to know electricity...and so do most of us. So we're not sure of what you are saying or what you mean.
I don't believe there was a government statute directing that railroads could not own their own power generating systems. Trolley and interurbans were different and they got into the power business because no one else was generating power...then their owners, investors, whatever, found it was more profitable to produce and sell electricity to the public than run trolley cars and thus sold off the transportation part of their business. But I know for sure that the New Haven lines were fed electricity from their owned and operated generating station as Cos Cob, CT. And, as was stated, it fell prey to lack of maintenance and neglect especially under the McGinnis regime to the point it became useless. But is was railroad owned and operated until abandoned and power was purchased from commercial suppliers. The NYC, PRR and DL&W, and I believe the Reading, too, all purchased power from commercial power companies and converted to their specified needs. While they did not have a redundant facility, i.e. separate power supply for the entire systems, they were able to jump across so that a distant power conversion or sub station could actually feed the adjacent blocks. On the PRR, the Wilmington, DE plant could actually feed all the way to Sunnyside Yard in Long Island City if needed...and from a member of the PRR engineering department, it was full and usable power, too. The DL&W segments of about 10 miles each could be jumped to feed adjacent segments. All of this with no phase gaps, no loss of power to the locomotion, no loss of power to the lights of the cars. This is why I can't understand why these systems today are designed so that one 8 mile segment of power loss closes down the whole railroad, that there is no jump system from adjacent segments. Nor why, when it was known that Con Ed was taking a back up feeder off line for an extended length of time that Con Ed and MNRR didn't make an alternative back up plan. I know investor mentality is that redundancies and back up plans are expensive and take from bottom lines, but so does, and maybe even more so, total lack of service, emergency contingencies, and loss of respect and trust.
henry6 efftenxrfe Henry6, Grand evening. that my (point) included trolley, LTV. Classic MU commuter, and more. Cos Cob, that you're sensitive and suggest that the NHRR powerplant, poor baby, is a victim of my right and then left coast life. I asked why different circuits with different interrupters could not be permitting power to be fed in from both ends of the circuit? I am sorry, but I don't understand what you are saying. Do you know what Cos Cob was? Do you know the operations of MNRR and Amtrak today versus the operations under NYC and NH of 40 years ago? You seem to know electricity...and so do most of us. So we're not sure of what you are saying or what you mean.
The gentleman with whom you are having this discussion, I say gentleman because said person self-identified as a retired railroad locomotive crew member and I am thinking that in-the-day women in that post were rare, not so much today, this gentleman made three points that I think I can explain.
Part of why his response may be confusing to some here on the Forum as he is responding to more than one Forum member, who have been perhaps unnecessarily critical of the rather clear point he was trying to make.
The first point about "trolley, LTV, Classic MU commuter" was to say that our fellow Forum participant with a railroad career is well versed and well informed about the different kinds of electric railways. There were some posts that muddied the waters by suggesting that "efftenxrfe" didn't know what kind of putatively antiquated catenary was in use.
The second remark about "Cos Cob" "and being "a victim of my right and left coast life" was a response to a different Forum colleague who brought up the subject of Cos Cob, deferred maintainence, and how long-time-ago New Haven RR CEO McGinnis was a "corporate pirate" and for all we know also one of the corrupt Lake, McHenry, and DuPage County Republicans serving on the METRA board. I believe the remark "right and then left coast life" was a nod to the politics of corporate pirates and even nastier Republican political figures, who in the fashion of Emmanuel Goldstein (character in George Orwell's novel) are at the root of all deferred maintenance, underfunding of public works, and the recent announcement that for Wisconsin state workers, removal of warts is now regarded as a cosmetic procedure not covered by medical insurance.
As you, Henry6 point out, Cos Cob is ancient history (the power conversion plant, not the neighborhood), and that the affected catenary in question is newly updated 60 Hz line, and not the "ancient stuff" inferior to what they have in Europe and favored by Bad People in corporate boardrooms and in the halls of Congress.
Point number three is that if the affected stretch of catenary had been fed from each end, with the proper circuit breaker at each feed point, this failure and hence this embarrasing-to-the-cause-of-public-passenger-rail outage could have been avoided. You Henry6 admit as much in paraphrasing this entire point in one of your own posts.
In fact, another forum participant confirms that there is another electric feed to the affected catenary, but it was disconnected or maybe never put in place, perhaps in reponse to Corporate Pirates and Republican Legislators, vindicating our esteemed Forum member who worries about such people
So the service outage has nothing to do with McGinnis' mismanagement of the old New Haven RR or that the antiquated catenary on the NEC is not being replaced, but we can fault construction shortcuts (excuse the electricity puns) that perhaps can be laid at the feet of the Bad People rather than oversights and lack of engineering knowledge from our esteemed friends at Amtrak or Metro North. I hope this restores the harmony that David Wardale favors (he speaks of his religious beliefs rooted in Buddhism in connection with his late-day work on steam locomotives).
But everything I just said in a lot of words was said much more succinctly by my esteemed Forum colleague. But as to the patronizing tone ("You seem to know electricity...and so do most of us"), let's try to be more welcoming of new participants, especially people from the railroad industry.
All of your points are well taken, Paul and I am still trying to work through the confusion. Also, as for alternate feed to the segment. I don't believe it exists from other segments but by direct alternative standby line which at this time is out of service for major rebuilding and refurbishing. This, I think, was what was referenced.
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