daveklepperCorrection: The NYNH&H did not even cover costs on the dining cars per se. The dining and lounge cas were under one budget, and the money was recouped by the high prices chaged for drinks in the bar cars on commuter trains. And the higih prices did not stop people from using thse cars and using them steadly. They were often jammed, all seats taken and peoplel three deep at the bar-counter.
There may be a lesson here....
Sell snacks and soda from on board vending machines and "to go" meals at the stations on the NEC. Sell high margin stuff at manned stations - drinks, gourmet coffee, smoothies in manned cafe cars.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
schlimmThe infamous $15 hamburger (cost to Amtrak to serve it for $8.95) is the sort of nonsense Amtrak does that Letterman and others joke about. And it is a symbol of what's wrong with Amtrak. Guys like Mica use it to tear Amtrak apart.
Even as I agree with you about this statement I am not sure that Amtrak is lying in shreds over its hamburger expenses, Schlimm.
David Letterman is an entertainer and his job to to find comedy where ever he can. But I doubt that entertainers will bring Amtrak down.
Congressman Mica is caught in a political paradox typical of America. His constituents like him a lot; there is no danger of his losing his seat as long as he wants to run. However, active Republicans in his district are a lot closer to Teaparty candidates and would prefer a more conservative candidate. The primary is where his challenge really lies. And one way for him to appeal to the conservatives in his district is to attack Amtrak. The $15 hamburgers have gotten him a lot of national exposure. (See your comment about David Letterman). So among the conservatives in his district the Congressman has succeeded and he intends to continue to succeed. But among Americans as a whole I doubt his attacks are more than an amusing diversion.
John
oltmannd Stop the train? What for? Just load the meals on with the passengers.
Correction: The NYNH&H did not even cover costs on the dining cars per se. The dining and lounge cas were under one budget, and the money was recouped by the high prices chaged for drinks in the bar cars on commuter trains. And the higih prices did not stop people from using thse cars and using them steadly. They were often jammed, all seats taken and peoplel three deep at the bar-counter.
Should Amtrak start charging for luggage people bring on board, too? Dining cars provide what Amtrak's competition can't.
schlimmFood service (read: dining cars, $15 hamburgers) are an easy target, low-lying fruit for the Micas of the world. But the way to disarm them is take away the targets.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
oltmanndYou can rent a private car and invite your friends to come along. Might cost a bit more than $100 a head, though.
I'll put this on my "Things to do when I win the lottery" list. Along with your name as a guest.
blue streak 1 So if a train had to make a 45 minute stop to feed passengers would that save mone ? Not likely. That would cause what at least 6 crew members another 2 hrs + pay per day. That does not count the idle time of the train & m possible blocking a freight train. Seems like AT&SF did it with Harvey houses and went to dinner cars to speed up train. A 6 meal LD trip will make a train schedule 4:30 more and train set might not be able to make turn times + maintenance issue..
So if a train had to make a 45 minute stop to feed passengers would that save mone ? Not likely. That would cause what at least 6 crew members another 2 hrs + pay per day. That does not count the idle time of the train & m possible blocking a freight train. Seems like AT&SF did it with Harvey houses and went to dinner cars to speed up train. A 6 meal LD trip will make a train schedule 4:30 more and train set might not be able to make turn times + maintenance issue..
John WR oltmanndFull disclosure: I did have a steak in an old NH grill car riding along the Shorline on an Amtrak train in 1973. Great experience! Since you have been so candid, Don, I too feel the urge to confess. In the early 60's I was in the Army going home on leave. I met a pleasant companion and we both sat in the grill car on the New Haven looking out over the shore. I could only afford a hamburger. But I still remember how much I enjoyed it. I would willingly have $100 a year added to my taxes to see those grill cars run again. John
oltmanndFull disclosure: I did have a steak in an old NH grill car riding along the Shorline on an Amtrak train in 1973. Great experience!
Since you have been so candid, Don, I too feel the urge to confess.
In the early 60's I was in the Army going home on leave. I met a pleasant companion and we both sat in the grill car on the New Haven looking out over the shore. I could only afford a hamburger. But I still remember how much I enjoyed it. I would willingly have $100 a year added to my taxes to see those grill cars run again.
You can rent a private car and invite your friends to come along. Might cost a bit more than $100 a head, though.
DeggestyI'm sure that the news butchers made money in the fifties and perhaps in the sixties.
Johnny,
I think you mean those guys who walked through the trains with a basket under their arm and a coffee pot hanging down. That was definitely the most horrible food I ever had in my life. On the other hand, they also sold literature. If you talked to them in the vestibule there was a little privacy to discuss your purchase.
PNWRMNM With the possible exception of the NEC it [Amtrak] is a net burden on society and should be eliminated. Period. End of story.
With the possible exception of the NEC it [Amtrak] is a net burden on society and should be eliminated. Period. End of story.
What I like about you Mac, and I am sincere in saying this, is that you mean what you say and say what you mean. But let me suggest that things might improve if Amtrak burdened the society a little more. In the midwest and around Texas if we were to have some higher speed rail transportation than we now do it might be impossible to share it with freight railroads. Amtrak might then have to pay to improve its own track and leave the freight railroads, at least in some places.
Henry,
If we take individual comments about Amtrak food or bike hooks or similar things I can agree with them.
But I think we have to be careful about how we discuss them. There are people both in Congress and out of government who take a "starve the beast" perspective not only on Amtrak but also on many other government expenditures. They will attack pretty much anything government does. But their real agenda is to simply reduce government without any assessment of the value of the programs they want to close down.
Beyond that, Amtrak is a Republican legacy. Republicans traditionally favor internal improvements and beneficial to the economy as a whole and support them. Abe Lincoln, the first Republican President, understood that when he signed the Pacific Railroad Acts And Richard Nixon understood it when he signed the act to create Amtrak. Dwight Eisenhower understood it when he created the Interstate Highway System. These were controversial and the controversies were resolved in favor of the internal improvement.
Democrats oppose internal improvements because they believe all of the people of a society will be taxed for the benefit of a few relatively well off people. Thomas Jefferson, for example, refused to fund the Erie Canal for that reason. The people who oppose New Jersey Transit building to Scranton tend to be Democrats who incorrectly argue that only Wall Street people ride our commuter trains.
The people in Congress who oppose Amtrak do call themselves Republican and run on a Republican ticket. But many of them come from the southeast and still have their old anti internal improvement beliefs. Eventually I hope their beliefs will evolve.
oltmanndSo, you can buy good food in the stations at "for profit" joints, or you can buy not-as-good food on the train and help Amtrak lose money? And this is a good situation because....???
Don,
This is one of your comments I find it hard to understand. I am reporting a personal practice; I'm not evaluating anything Amtrak does or does not do. And at most I comment on food at the snack bar, not food in a dining car.
For what it's worth, Amtrak's coffee and soft drinks as pretty much the same as you can get anywhere else. Rolls, breakfast food and sandwiches I find far better at the station. For example, I fine Zaro's in both New York and Newark Penn Stations excellent. When I buy something to eat I try to buy what I like. That is all.
When I have brought food in the snack bar on the train I find it typical of similar food sold in for profit places. I don't see any valid comparison between Amtrak snack bar food and food at similar businesses.
Finally, to suggest that an Amtrak issue should revolve around the bagel or croissant I eat on the train going up to Providence seems a little short sighted.
Complaints and attacks about food and service aboard Amtrak should not be taken seriously. Those who favor McDonald's fare and costs would be against anything better than that. Those who prefer Delmonico's will be totally disappointed. Those who are bottom line feeders will complain against the cost of providing the service ignorning how it supports the service in ways other than financial, Those who over worry the total value of the service will lose track and go too far beyond what is really needed. Politicians, pick your sides and your weapons...the food fight is still in full battle.
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
John WR Sam1 Based on several reports critical of the company's food service practices, it appears that the activity is ripe for reform. Would it be possible to share the sources of these reports with us, Sam? The only reports I know of are Congressman Mica's. I ride Northeast Regional trains. Long ago Amtrak stopped operating the dining cars that the New Haven and Penn Central railroads operated. And I avoid Amtrak's snack bars because I prefer the food available in the stations. John
Sam1 Based on several reports critical of the company's food service practices, it appears that the activity is ripe for reform.
Would it be possible to share the sources of these reports with us, Sam? The only reports I know of are Congressman Mica's.
I ride Northeast Regional trains. Long ago Amtrak stopped operating the dining cars that the New Haven and Penn Central railroads operated. And I avoid Amtrak's snack bars because I prefer the food available in the stations.
Numerous reports regarding Amtrak's food services practices have been issued by a variety of sources over the last ten years. I have read five or six of them.
The two reports that I had in mind are the DOT Inspector General's Report CR-2005-068, July 25, 2005, and the Amtrak Inspector General's Report E-11-03, June 3, 2011. The DOT IG report dealt with the issue of sleepers and dinners on long distance trains. The Amtrak IG's report dealt with food service fraud. I have not read recently either report, and I am not quoting from them. We have beat them to death in our discussions.
Food service on passengers trains, down through the years, has tended to be a loss leader. Ironically, if I remember correctly, one exception was the New Haven, which made money on its dinning cars longer than any other carrier while it was losing a ton of money on its passenger operations.
Mica has a valid point. If Amtrak were a profitable commercial operation, then running a loss leader would be acceptable. But it is not profitable. It requires significant federal and state subsidies for its existence. Given its dependence on taxpayer subsidies, especially with respect to the long distance trains, I am hard pressed to understand why a train rider's eats should be subsidized.
As I read what Mica supposedly said, his focus appears to be on so-called gourmet meals or Amtrak's contracts with gourmet chefs for food advice.
No, I'm not over the top. I believe in a total and balanced transportation system in which all forms and modes are treated to rationalize and convenient and efficient system. Highway, air, water, and rail in a planned, coordinated system. What we have now is one which each mode has its supporters at the expense of supporters of other modes.
I'm sure that the news butchers made money in the fifties and perhaps in the sixties. The last one I remeber seeing was on the Man O' War, in the early sixties.
Johnny
henry6 Destroying the transportation system by not supporting it reduces the quality of life we have so gallantly fought for and developed is shortsighted, greedy, and unpatriotic.
Destroying the transportation system by not supporting it reduces the quality of life we have so gallantly fought for and developed is shortsighted, greedy, and unpatriotic.
You are more than a little over the top on this one. ATK is not "the" transportation system, it is barely a transportation system and a **** poor one at that. With the possible exception of the NEC it is a net burden on society and should be eliminated. Period. End of story.
Mac
Florida has become one of the most backward states, poitically, in our nation, trying not to be a part of the US today and hoping not to be in the tuture. Steps its politicians have taken to step backward are working hard to make the US a Fourth World country and not the first class leader our forefathers...especially the Greatest Generation..fought for and gave us. Mica and his ilk seem to want to take us back to the 19th Centruy ignoring all the Industrial Revolution and the political programs that helped create our country's greatness. Destroying the transportation system by not supporting it reduces the quality of life we have so gallantly fought for and developed is shortsighted, greedy, and unpatriotic.
So, you can buy good food in the stations at "for profit" joints, or you can buy not-as-good food on the train and help Amtrak lose money? And this is a good situation because....???
Amtrak need to figure out how to make money selling snacks on trains - plain and simple. Whether it's a manned food car or vending machines or a manned "bar cart" plus vending machines - something, anything!
Full disclosure: I did have a steak in an old NH grill car riding along the Shorline on an Amtrak train in 1973. Great experience!
Food service (read: dining cars, $15 hamburgers) are an easy target, low-lying fruit for the Micas of the world. But the way to disarm them is take away the targets.
Paul Milenkovic Y'know, you could even save the delay of a station stop or the added time loading food carts at a station if you used one of those old-fashioned RPO car "mail hooks." You put the pre-plated (actually this requires padded boxes) food into a stout canvas bag, and a train crew person operates this hook to grab that bag set up on a post. Don't tell me it can't be done -- this is 1920's era railroad tech. Woo-hoo, just when eating that food, you will have to use a plastic spoon to scoop it off the sides of the styrofoam container . . .
Y'know, you could even save the delay of a station stop or the added time loading food carts at a station if you used one of those old-fashioned RPO car "mail hooks."
You put the pre-plated (actually this requires padded boxes) food into a stout canvas bag, and a train crew person operates this hook to grab that bag set up on a post. Don't tell me it can't be done -- this is 1920's era railroad tech. Woo-hoo, just when eating that food, you will have to use a plastic spoon to scoop it off the sides of the styrofoam container . . .
haha!!
Paul MilenkovicY'know, you could even save the delay of a station stop or the added time loading food carts at a station if you used one of those old-fashioned RPO car "mail hooks."
I was thinking of a trebochet set up to launch the food at "track speed" at a slight angle to the track so it would accelerate gently and land softly thru an open baggage car door.
Baggage car! Oops. Forget it...
oltmannd schlimm oltmannd DeggestySam, I agree with you that you will not find "gourmet" food in an Amtrak diner. I agree, too! It's on par with a lower end chain restaurant, like Applebees. I would say that food service is not one of Amtrak's core competencies and they should subcontract the whole thing out. Run the food service like a dinner train. The people who use LD trains as transportation don't use it because for the "dining experience." Only the land cruise and nostalgia folks and neither are part of Amtrak's mission. Lose the dining car and use subcontracted food service in the lounge car on Western LD trains. On single level trains use seat service. By, "run it like a dinner train" I mean, cook the food offsite and deliver hot, pre-plated meals to the train. Space is a very valuable asset on a train, don't use it up having a kitchen.
schlimm oltmannd DeggestySam, I agree with you that you will not find "gourmet" food in an Amtrak diner. I agree, too! It's on par with a lower end chain restaurant, like Applebees. I would say that food service is not one of Amtrak's core competencies and they should subcontract the whole thing out. Run the food service like a dinner train. The people who use LD trains as transportation don't use it because for the "dining experience." Only the land cruise and nostalgia folks and neither are part of Amtrak's mission. Lose the dining car and use subcontracted food service in the lounge car on Western LD trains. On single level trains use seat service.
oltmannd DeggestySam, I agree with you that you will not find "gourmet" food in an Amtrak diner. I agree, too! It's on par with a lower end chain restaurant, like Applebees. I would say that food service is not one of Amtrak's core competencies and they should subcontract the whole thing out. Run the food service like a dinner train.
DeggestySam, I agree with you that you will not find "gourmet" food in an Amtrak diner.
I agree, too! It's on par with a lower end chain restaurant, like Applebees.
I would say that food service is not one of Amtrak's core competencies and they should subcontract the whole thing out. Run the food service like a dinner train.
By, "run it like a dinner train" I mean, cook the food offsite and deliver hot, pre-plated meals to the train. Space is a very valuable asset on a train, don't use it up having a kitchen.
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
"Run it like a dinner train...." Where is the food to be delivered?--and when the train is running late, when do the passengers eat?
I remember one instance in which the steward had to buy food at a stop. One trip of the Coast Starlight was delayed en route when a freight train derailed in one of the Cascade tunnels, and the steward bought food in Chehalis so the passengers could eat dinner, and the food was prepared on board. We arrived in Seattle ten hours late.
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