I am willing to grant Mr. Klepper the lattitude to determine whether or not his version of "Speak kindly to Jerusalem; And call out to her, that her warfare has ended, That her iniquity has been removed, That she has received of the LORD'S hand Double for all her sins." is properly respectful of his religious profession, his heritage and his Rodina.
Those are powerful words that speak to a prophesy that looks towards a day when all the peoples of Jerusalem can live there in peace and with justice and prosperity.
These are also powerful words to a person, not only of the Middle East but also of the Near East, whose parents were forcibly driven from their Rodina under parallel circumstances to those spoken to in that passage.
To a person who dares to mock those words, I have one thing to say. Just put a "sock in it."
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
Speed thee rapidly to Jerusalem
And cry unto her
That her rail road is accomplish-ed
And her express train is departing
******
The voice of one that crieth at the track gate
"Prepare ye to now come aboard
Make straight in the country a rail-way
Fooooor -- waard!
Foooooor -- waard!"
Why would not he approve?
From the Oratorio "Messiah" by Geroge Frederick Handel:
"Speed thee comfortably to Jerusalem"
daveklepperI hope to still be alive at the second miracle, the opening of the high-speed Jerusalem - Tel Aviv line. under construction.
I can only wonder what Jesus would think of any rail transportation at all where he once walked.
Homogination. The "left" in Israel used to be accused (quite rightly, in my opinion) of wanting to make Israel a "Hebrew-speaking Weimar Republic (Germany before Hitler) and today that are accused of wanting to make Israel a "Hebrew-speakering mineature USA," and there is truth, even to a Disney or Disney-like theme park. You can seen the USA influence in the tee-shirts the kids wear, and things "made in America" automatically capture a higher price. Sometimes this is good, from my point of view, since I now see Chevrolets and Fords around and not just Volkswagens, Toyottas, Hondas, and Dafts.
But what is amazing, is for me, the main street "of the World" is of course the main street of Jerusalem, and you know what? It has a light rail line along its length, that today is seeing 110,000 passenger trips a day! (goes beyond at both ends, of course) Service every 5-1/2 minutes, clean, quiet, smooth, polite, a real dream come true. Something I could not possibly when the Broadway - 42nd Street streetcar line in Manhattan was converted to bus at the end of 1946 when I was going on 15 year old. I ride it frequenctly, and consider it somewhat of a miracle every time. The staff has all local enthnic groups and all ride it. I hope to still be alive at the second miracle, the opening of the high-speed Jerusalem - Tel Aviv line. under construction.
BaltACDMy take is the Federal Government, or at least Congress, wants to get out of the business of being a government - force everything that costs money to be private, and keep all the tax revenue for themselves.
Balt,
My take is different than yours. I think we are in a period of great cultural change. Our political institutions right now are embedded in that culture and they are effected by it pretty much like everything else is. However, because politics is so public we notice it a lot more.
I also believe in the pendulum theory of culture. As an extreme group on one side or the other gets power, as the pendulum swings farther and farther in one direction or other, the stronger the forces with tend to pull it back to the center become. For those of us who are conservative, and supporting Amtrak is a conservative thing to do in that conservatives are people who value and want to keep what we have built up over the years, the key to to battle to maintain it, to keep it until nature takes its course and we can again have some objective perspective.
That is my personal belief. Feel free to take it for what you believe it is worth.
John
schlimm BaltACDMy take is the Federal Government, or at least Congress, wants to get out of the business of being a government - force everything that costs money to be private, and keep all the tax revenue for themselve Substitute a political ideological group for federal Government and you are correct.
BaltACDMy take is the Federal Government, or at least Congress, wants to get out of the business of being a government - force everything that costs money to be private, and keep all the tax revenue for themselve
Substitute a political ideological group for federal Government and you are correct.
I didn't want to make a political statement. TOS and all.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
John WR daveklepperAnd I think that long distance trains will survive and the USA is better for that. No doubt there are benefits in better inter city rail service. Some states (notably California) have seen this and are seeking to build intercity rail. However, even today there is no consensus in the Congress that we ought to do this. In fact, if we look at the 2008 Amtrak amendments, the consensus seems to be the opposite, that the Federal Government ought to get out of the intercity business. Today the discussion is whether Amtrak should exist at all. The loudest voices insist we should abandon Amtrak. I share your hope that Amtrak will survive, Dave. But I do not share your positive outlook for that. ... John
daveklepperAnd I think that long distance trains will survive and the USA is better for that.
No doubt there are benefits in better inter city rail service. Some states (notably California) have seen this and are seeking to build intercity rail. However, even today there is no consensus in the Congress that we ought to do this. In fact, if we look at the 2008 Amtrak amendments, the consensus seems to be the opposite, that the Federal Government ought to get out of the intercity business.
Today the discussion is whether Amtrak should exist at all. The loudest voices insist we should abandon Amtrak. I share your hope that Amtrak will survive, Dave. But I do not share your positive outlook for that.
...
My take is the Federal Government, or at least Congress, wants to get out of the business of being a government - force everything that costs money to be private, and keep all the tax revenue for themselves.
Firelock76What worrys me is the present American culture is so powerful and so pervasive it tends to "homogenize" any part of the country it flows into.
On one level, Wayne, you're right. Go anywhere in the world and what do people want even if they don't have it? They want a car. And when they get a car they drive to McDonalds. But there is one place this homogenization is kind of lumpy: The U S of A.
Dave just pointed out Orthodox Jews are not disappearing. The Orthodox are increasing. And they are not becoming homogenized either. And among Christians the fastest growing group is the fundamentalists who take the Bible literally. And then today we have the strongest movement in our history and perhaps in human history to allow same sex marriage. And then there is the tea party. Agree or disagree with them, they are not going to be homogenized into some generic American. And, to turn to this forum, back in 1970 everybody knew, absolutely knew, that in a few years no one at all would be riding trains. But today Amtrak has more riders than it has ever had in its history. It seems to me that here at home somebody's homogenizer isn't working very well.
Back in 1970 when Amtrak (or Railpax) was debated in Congress the consensus that emerged is that the US should maintain a national rail system. That consensus exists to this day and that is what we have.
I think that now more than ever those who believe in rail passenger transportation have to stand up and support the Amtrak we have not because it is the best possible Amtrak but because not doing so erodes support for any rail passenger service at all. For that reason I shy away from strong arguments for improved methods even when I agree with them. When the perfect becomes the enemy of the good all to often that gives victory to the worst alternatives.
To Daveklepper: I've just read your take on my take on the Amish disappearing, and I hope you're right. I don't want them to disappear, I don't want any unique group here in the US to disappear, I think we'd all be the pooer for it.
What worrys me is the present American culture is so powerful and so pervasive it tends to "homogenize" any part of the country it flows into. It's so powerful it's even spreading around the world without any concious effort on our part. Movies, TV, popular music, and now the Internet and all its iterations.
I certainly hope I'm wrong. I'd be thrilled to be wrong on this one.
I think (strictly as an amateur) that Paul and Don are on to something here. Why run extra engines in a consist merely to keep on a schedule if one engine partly or totally conks out? That implies that mechanical problems are a fairly frequent occurrence. Why? Can't the maintenance folk keep the P42s in good repair? Is this seen also on the freight lines?
oltmannd blue streak 11. The first one is locomotives as adding cars to existing trains appears to cause them to be underpowered. Most of these trains appear to be at their car limit with the # of locos they now use. Of course when the AC traction motor locos are on the property that may change but as of now there is no definitive date of AC loco delivery. Two P42s on a dozen cars underpowered? Gee, I hope not! Amtrak used to use a single HEP equipped E8 or F40 on 8-9 cars on the Shoreline. Balance speed was just about 100 mph. Check out some of the Streamliner schedules and power and compare HP/ton to current Amtrak. Look at the Maple Leaf, Pennsylvanian, et. al. All single unit trains on a half dozen cars or more. The reason many of the Eastern LD trains have two units is protection. Lots of room for more cars w/o adding a locomotive.
blue streak 11. The first one is locomotives as adding cars to existing trains appears to cause them to be underpowered. Most of these trains appear to be at their car limit with the # of locos they now use. Of course when the AC traction motor locos are on the property that may change but as of now there is no definitive date of AC loco delivery.
Two P42s on a dozen cars underpowered? Gee, I hope not! Amtrak used to use a single HEP equipped E8 or F40 on 8-9 cars on the Shoreline. Balance speed was just about 100 mph. Check out some of the Streamliner schedules and power and compare HP/ton to current Amtrak. Look at the Maple Leaf, Pennsylvanian, et. al. All single unit trains on a half dozen cars or more. The reason many of the Eastern LD trains have two units is protection.
Lots of room for more cars w/o adding a locomotive.
Maybe this "two P42s on a dozen cars" needs its own thread? Maybe this question of Amtrak power dispatch is something we have talked about before? Maybe "Amtrak is run by professional who know what they are doing and shouldn't be second guessed by arm chair railroad tycoons." Yeah, Don, I am talking about you, I mean what do you know about locomotives because your expertise is with freight operations, and like, passenger locomotives are so totally different
OK, seriously, people, I have wondered about the locomotive question. Is it a question of having enough power to trains can accelerate more quickly and make up time for scheduled as where as unseen slow running? Is it a question of Amtrak being underfunded and that their locomotives are old and unreliable and they need pairs of locomotives not to get stuck? Is it that they have the locomotives and people dispatch locomotives for "insurance" or that fuel economy is not an institutional priority in Amtrak in comparison to not getting stuck out on the road?
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
http://www.jewishfederations.org/local_includes/downloads/7579.pdf
This link suggests your prediction about the sizes of the different Jewish religious (and non-religious) communities maybe doubtful.
My views on preserving long distance trains for the benefit of tourism, handicapped and elderly, alternatives in emergencies, tying the corridors together, more equitable distribution of the subsidy to all citizens, have been expressed many times. I do want to answer "There won't be Amish 100 yeas from now."
I think there will be. Because I have learned that the best approach (for many peope) to the Eternal is through the rituals of ones own ansestors, "Honor thy Father and thy Mother." (Commandment No, 3.) And these rituals can include aspects of daily life, not just what happens in church, synagogue, mosque, ashram, or whatever.
Berfore WWII many Jews were convineced that Orfthodox Judaism, with its diatary laws, no riding on the Sabbath, no starting or stopping electrcial appliances including lights on the Sabbath, etc., was going to die out, and that the efforts of the Reform Movement in the USA to make Judiaism into just one more Protestanr denomination (no differnece in actual living) would succeed. But current demographics are such that in 40 ears most USA Jews will be Orthodox, despite many on retirement following the Biblical command to "rebuild the Land" and moving to Israel. Every Supermarket in the USA now has a wide selection of OU (Orthodox Union) labeled products permitting an Orhdox Jew to live anywhere and keep Kosher. Just like the Amish, there are some disssagreements, Sepharidim allow one to take food off a hot plate or stove and return in on the Sabbath, Ashkenazim do not. Some feel wearing "fringes" exposed is important, others inside the clothing only. Sephardim can eat rice during Passover, Ashkenasim cannot. But we can pray together without problems.
I think the Amish will survive, and I think the USA is better for that.
And I think that long distance trains will survive and the USA is better for that.
oltmannd Nearly all the growth has been on corridors. That's the success story. That's where future growth will be. That's where the money should be spent. Trains as a tool for social justice is a tough sell. If mobility is a basic right, there are better ways to get mobility to all than Amtrak LD trains.
Nearly all the growth has been on corridors. That's the success story. That's where future growth will be. That's where the money should be spent.
Trains as a tool for social justice is a tough sell. If mobility is a basic right, there are better ways to get mobility to all than Amtrak LD trains.
Paul Milenkovic I have never said here or any other place that I advocate doing away with trains or the subsidy for trains or even doing away with the long-distance trains. What I do say, perhaps repeatedly and to the annoyance of some, is that those of us who advocate for trains and advocate for public money for trains need to come up with better reasons for trains or come up with a better-reasoned case. Or we should put our support behind those trains that make the most sense for the reasons we put forth. Advocating for something with the wrong reasons or with weak reasons can actually weaken a cause.
I have never said here or any other place that I advocate doing away with trains or the subsidy for trains or even doing away with the long-distance trains.
What I do say, perhaps repeatedly and to the annoyance of some, is that those of us who advocate for trains and advocate for public money for trains need to come up with better reasons for trains or come up with a better-reasoned case. Or we should put our support behind those trains that make the most sense for the reasons we put forth.
Advocating for something with the wrong reasons or with weak reasons can actually weaken a cause.
With that succinct exposition, I agree entirely. Thank you, Paul for the clarification, and sorry if I have misunderstood your positions.
Mine is simply that Amtrak (or any other passenger rail service provider) should concentrate on providing basic transportation for the most people that is rational in the sectors where it can be competitive.
Paul,
Please accept my apology for mis stating your position. I did believe you to be opposed to Amtrak subsidy but, as your current post points out, I was mistaken. I regret my error.
So far I have not commented about Amtrak advocates. I would have to think about that issue before expressing myself on it.
John WR Paul, As I understand your position you consider government appropriations to Amtrak as an unwarranted subsidy to riders for no particular reason at all.
As I understand your position you consider government appropriations to Amtrak as an unwarranted subsidy to riders for no particular reason at all.
That is a complete misunderstanding of my position. I have never said here or any other place that I advocate doing away with trains or the subsidy for trains or even doing away with the long-distance trains.
Advocating for something with the wrong reasons or with weak reasons can actually weaken a cause. The Environmental Movement sometimes advances wrong reasons, weak reasons, or perhaps reasons on which there is legitimate argument one way or the other. But the Environmental Movement can get away with that sometimes because who is "against the environment" and in favor of drinking bad water, breathing polluted air, and seeing animals go extinct? But even with the Motherhood and Apple Pie force behind it, certain policies coming out the Environmental Movement are not universally accepted and are subject to intense public debate.
Passenger train advocacy is a Motherhood and Apple Pie issue with a much narrower segment of the population than the Environmental Movement. No one wants to drink yucky water but the segment of the population with an enthusiasm for trains simply for the sake of trains is much narrower.
Passenger train advocacy has attempted to hitch its star to the Environmental Movement -- trains can relieve highway congestion, trains can prevent the need to pave over more farm and natural land, trains can reduce pollution, trains can reduce the environmental harm of oil production, and so on.
Many of us passenger train advocates support the environment, actually, we all do. Who wants to drink yucky water? But to our frustration, the support of environment advocates for trains can be mixed. From the standpoint of the environment, we are not the Environmental Movement, rather, we are advocates of a narrow solution to part of the environmental puzzle. We are the Ethanol Lobby. Many environmentalists support ethanol, but there are also many skeptics who think Ethanol may be doing more harm to the environment than good when you take in the demands for and stress on farmland and on soils.
John WR BonasYou cant ignore your base customers- Amish,Students, Senoir Citizens(There are more now then ever),Disabled,people who live in rural communitys, Familys traveling together and folks who live in major citys who just dont have cars. Actually Amtrak has been quite successful in recruiting more customers. It has been especially successful in recent years. Today it has more customers than ever.
BonasYou cant ignore your base customers- Amish,Students, Senoir Citizens(There are more now then ever),Disabled,people who live in rural communitys, Familys traveling together and folks who live in major citys who just dont have cars.
Actually Amtrak has been quite successful in recruiting more customers. It has been especially successful in recent years. Today it has more customers than ever.
You cant ignore your base customers- Amish,Students, Senoir Citizens(There are more now then ever),Disabled,people who live in rural communitys, Familys traveling together and folks who live in major citys who just dont have cars. Amtrak has been trying to go after the buisness traveler when in fact is has a pool of 40 million people that ride the greyhound bus and train every year. I have also noticed that connecting flights from small airports to major hubs can be as much as 500.00 a ticket like Waterloo IA to Chicago. Amtrak should stop trying to be a airline and just concentrate on being a good old fasioned railroad with comfy wide seats that you can sleep in no matter how big you are
BaltACD Most of the Amish communities I am familiar with do not have Amtrak stations within buggy distance, and would need some form of motorized conveyance to be able to utilize Amtrak. My understanding of the Amish, they cannot own automobiles, have no electricy at their homes, no indoor plumbing or toilet facilities. However, they are permitted the use of electric lights, electronics, and power tools in the operation of their businesses. Mennonites, who inhabit the same areas as Amish and have a similar manner of dress, are permitted to own and operate automobiles. The 'Amish Mafia' show broadcast on the Discovery Channel offers some insights into a Amish community. How accurate it is, is open to question.
Most of the Amish communities I am familiar with do not have Amtrak stations within buggy distance, and would need some form of motorized conveyance to be able to utilize Amtrak.
My understanding of the Amish, they cannot own automobiles, have no electricy at their homes, no indoor plumbing or toilet facilities.
However, they are permitted the use of electric lights, electronics, and power tools in the operation of their businesses.
Mennonites, who inhabit the same areas as Amish and have a similar manner of dress, are permitted to own and operate automobiles.
The 'Amish Mafia' show broadcast on the Discovery Channel offers some insights into a Amish community. How accurate it is, is open to question.
Amish Mafia show is 100% road apples. It's entertaining and creative - but complete BS.
Mennonites range from very strict (even stricter than most amish) to very casual to the point you wouldn't even know they were Mennonite unless they told you.
As far as Amish, a lot depends on their local bishops. Many of them do have smartphones, computers, hire an Englishmen if they want to drive somewhere, or just use their kids' cars. The kids don't join the church until they are adults. They won't use a gas-powered tractor to spray weeds, but they'll use a horse-powered wagon with a gas-powered weed sprayer strapped to it. There is a lot of picking and choosing. There's also a lot of local strife about how certain laws and regulations are enforced (or more appropriately) not enforced in the Amish community. Things like child labor, OSHA regs, sewage treatment, food safety, and puppy mills. They are Amtrak supporters, though.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
In the long term this is all probably a moot point. I'd be amazed if in 100 years time there are any Amish at all, at least not how we understand the term today. It's evolution. As the country becomes more "homogenized" any local cultures are going to have to be VERY strong to survive.
It's not wrong, it's not right, it's just the way it is. At any rate I won't be here to find out if I was correct.
As I understand your position you consider government appropriations to Amtrak as an unwarranted subsidy to riders for no particular reason at all. The fact that some Amtrak riders are fairly affluent itself argues against that subsidy.
My own position is that Amtrak is an important part of our over all transportation system and Amtrak appropriations are needed to maintain that part.
I doubt we shall ever see eye to eye on this issue. I think all we can do is agree to disagree.
I am deliberately not commenting on the religious issue because I feel uncomfortable discussing other people's religious beliefs.
Paul MilenkovicBut I don't know that anyone of the Anabaptist faith tradition is demanding that they be provided with a Diesel or electric propelled train service to accommodate the lifestyle mandated by their faith. I am thinking that others are making that demand on their behalf because they want trains and are trying to come up with excuses for keeping them running.
I think Paul M is on to something there. The cynic in me wonders if it is just a coincidence that this Amish thread shows up shortly after the "Save the Pennsylvanian!" threads have been reiterated over and over? It does serve an area where or near where a good number of Amish and Mennonites have lived, so is this yet another justification for running a train that seems fairly unneeded compared to the needs of other, not/never-served-by- Amtrak areas?
John WR I apologize for my attempt to maintain a proper perspective here Schlimm. However, I think Bonas makes a very valid point. The Amish are one group of Americans. Dismissing their needs on the basis of stereotypes about their beliefs is, in my view, a mistake that goes beyond agreeing or disagreeing about Amtrak. John
I apologize for my attempt to maintain a proper perspective here Schlimm. However, I think Bonas makes a very valid point. The Amish are one group of Americans. Dismissing their needs on the basis of stereotypes about their beliefs is, in my view, a mistake that goes beyond agreeing or disagreeing about Amtrak.
I am seeing the NARP style of passenger train advocacy, where we come up with any reason we can think of as a valid reason to direct public money towards passenger trains, throw all of those reasons against the wall, and see what sticks.
I mean, who is engaged in stereotypes? There are a lot of people who wear "Amish" clothes who are not Amish. But with the style of commentary around here, I suppose someone around here is going to tell me that what I know about Anabaptists from a Mennonite lay teacher of an adult Sunday School is all wrong and full of stereotypes.
How do you know the people at the train station are Amish rather than members of one of the other Anabaptist groups with different rules? How do you know that the folks in Amish clothes at the train station are there because of their stricture against automobiles? Maybe that train station is located where there is a concentration of Anabaptists wearing traditional clothes and that their usage of Amtrak is no different than people of other faith traditions?
And how is it that the Constitution granting people the freedom to practice their religion as they see fit is turned around to a moral obligation on my part to contribute public money at very high rates of subsidy to facilitate that lifestyle?
I believe there is a social obligation to persons in need, both at the individual and governmental level, but the individual response is a moral one whereas the collective or governmental response is justified more by utilitarian concerns of maintaining social order. There is a difference betweent providing high rates of subsidy to Diesel and electric trains to persons keeping a vow of poverty out of religious devotion with the moral demand of caring for the poor. There is a passage by Paul in the New Testament admonishing "If you don't work, you don't eat", and I believe that he was "locking the heels down" of people who didn't understand that distinction.
But I don't know that anyone of the Anabaptist faith tradition is demanding that they be provided with a Diesel or electric propelled train service to accomodate the lifestyle mandated by their faith. I am thinking that others are making that demand on their behalf because they want trains and are trying to come up with excuses for keeping them running.
The reason I call these excuses for keeping the trains running is that is what they are. The thing is that we don't have trains in many places and a lot of people in this country are without train service and manage to get by one way or another. But if there is a proposal to discontinue train service in one location so as to have resources to provide or improve trains service in some location with greater need or greater demand or other greater social benefit, there is this wailing and gnashing of teeth that train service is some kind of UN mandated human right.
And this kind of inflexibility can't be blamed "on Congress" because Congress reacts to the opinions of the people who care about trains. Us. Amtrak cannot even operate like a well-run non-profit that optimizes the services it provides with the level of money it has on hand because train enthusiasts use the political leverage to demand that Amtrak do this or Amtrak keep that sparsely patronized train.
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