Every day that I pass thru a major bus or train station there are groups of Amish. As it turns out there are about 180,000 of these folk who depend on Greyhound and or Amtrak to get them around. For several years there has been a mass migration of amish out of PA and OH as land prices and taxes have forced them off there homesteads. For Amtrak and Greyhound to ignore this population by cutting rural stations and routes is a slap in the face to them and the bottom line. They are one of many groups that have to use ground transport like students,senior citizens,disabled and fixed income people and those that live nowhere near a airport.
Within the United States there are identifiable groups that have come to depend on Amtrak for their transportation. One group is those who for religious reasons use Amtrak. Many people with disabilities depend on Amtrak. Many people in rural areas have no other transportation available to them. Students going to college often use Amtrak's generous baggage allowance. Older Americans use Amtrak in disproportionate numbers.
Bus service becomes increasingly problematical. Testifying before the Congress on March 5 Amtrak President Joe Boardmen pointed out that from 2005 to 2011 bus service to rural areas declined by 11 per cent over all. Some states have much greater declines in bus service. Also, today increasing numbers of buses are operated by discount bus companies. These companies structure their service so they are not required to comply with the Americans with Disabilities Act. Many do not provide accessible restrooms. A significant proportion of buses are simply not available to people with mobility impairments. Even where accessible bus service does exist we do not know how long the private sector will be willing or able to provide it.
The number of rural areas served by air service is also declining as deregulation as forced may air carriers out of business.
For increasing numbers of people Amtrak is their only transportation. And for another group they don't even have Amtrak; they simply have no transportation to distant places.
I don't think the government's provision of transportation services to a group who cannot own automobiles because of religious beliefs would be constitutional unless said services were otherwise warranted.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Bonas Every day that I pass thru a major bus or train station there are groups of Amish. As it turns out there are about 180,000 of these folk who depend on Greyhound and or Amtrak to get them around. For several years there has been a mass migration of amish out of PA and OH as land prices and taxes have forced them off there homesteads. For Amtrak and Greyhound to ignore this population by cutting rural stations and routes is a slap in the face to them and the bottom line. They are one of many groups that have to use ground transport like students,senior citizens,disabled and fixed income people and those that live nowhere near a airport. Ohio 59,103 Pennsylvania 58,009 Indiana 45,144 Wisconsin 14,957 New York 10,787 Michigan 10,218 Missouri 9,833 Kentucky 8,172 Iowa 7,179 Illinois 6,267
The "mass migration" isn't due to inability to pay taxes, it's population growth. There just isn't more land for them to buy to farm. Many have gone into owning/working in other industries. If you own an RV assembled in Indiana, chances are a Amish guy or two worked on it.
As for "relying" on trains and buses. That's nonsense. They very often rely on "English" to drive them where they need to go.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
The "mass migration" is also a part of the phenomenon of many young Amish leaving the faith and community and moving to other places, usually urban areas. Some Amish are also able to drive vehicles which they borrow from "Auslanders" (foreigners = non-Amish).
Not being an expert on the German Anabaptists of which the Amish and their rules are one particular sect (I encountered some prosperous farmers with a brand new Ford Super Duty Turbo Diesel truck at Fleet Farm wearing "Amish" garb, but they may be of one of the other Anabaptist groups), guess I have some questions.
So, one is supposed to not own or drive a car, but it is OK to ride Amtrak or Lamars (Greyhound), which uses modern combustion engines, but it is not OK to get a ride from someone or ride an airplane?
This "slap in the face" remark also goes kind of far inasmuch that one particular branch of a religion (Amish are just one group of German Anabaptists -- many other Anabaptists are hardworking prosperous people who drive late model vehicles) chooses to forgo personal combustion engines, as a matter of piety through foregoing worldly luxuries or whatever devotional reason, so Amtrak service (Diesel powered) becomes some kind of 1st Amendment respect for someone's religion question?
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
Certainly Amtrak was not created because of anyone's religious beliefs. Yet the fact is that some who ride Amtrak do so because of their religious beliefs. I would argue that it is not valid for us to make our own personal judgments about those beliefs. However, there is a question about whether or not their beliefs should be considered in deciding whether or not to continue Amtrak routes.
No one is belittling the Amish. However, it is rather a stretch of the 1st amendment and Amtrak's charter to let religion be a factor in deciding on a subsidized rail service.
Most of the Amish communities I am familiar with do not have Amtrak stations within buggy distance, and would need some form of motorized conveyance to be able to utilize Amtrak.
My understanding of the Amish, they cannot own automobiles, have no electricy at their homes, no indoor plumbing or toilet facilities.
However, they are permitted the use of electric lights, electronics, and power tools in the operation of their businesses.
Mennonites, who inhabit the same areas as Amish and have a similar manner of dress, are permitted to own and operate automobiles.
The 'Amish Mafia' show broadcast on the Discovery Channel offers some insights into a Amish community. How accurate it is, is open to question.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
come on people. Its time that we remember the words ------ " We the people " . Lets stop balkanizing the USA and try to work together.
schlimmNo one is belittling the Amish. However, it is rather a stretch of the 1st amendment and Amtrak's charter to let religion be a factor in deciding on a subsidized rail service.
I was wondering if anyone would notice that, Schlimm. But for you I was planning to start a new religion -- The Righteous Rail Riders -- and insist that any attempt to alter Amtrak would be an offense against my freedom of religion.
John
Your humor falls flat. Better keep your day job.
I apologize for my attempt to maintain a proper perspective here Schlimm. However, I think Bonas makes a very valid point. The Amish are one group of Americans. Dismissing their needs on the basis of stereotypes about their beliefs is, in my view, a mistake that goes beyond agreeing or disagreeing about Amtrak.
John WR I apologize for my attempt to maintain a proper perspective here Schlimm. However, I think Bonas makes a very valid point. The Amish are one group of Americans. Dismissing their needs on the basis of stereotypes about their beliefs is, in my view, a mistake that goes beyond agreeing or disagreeing about Amtrak. John
I am seeing the NARP style of passenger train advocacy, where we come up with any reason we can think of as a valid reason to direct public money towards passenger trains, throw all of those reasons against the wall, and see what sticks.
I mean, who is engaged in stereotypes? There are a lot of people who wear "Amish" clothes who are not Amish. But with the style of commentary around here, I suppose someone around here is going to tell me that what I know about Anabaptists from a Mennonite lay teacher of an adult Sunday School is all wrong and full of stereotypes.
How do you know the people at the train station are Amish rather than members of one of the other Anabaptist groups with different rules? How do you know that the folks in Amish clothes at the train station are there because of their stricture against automobiles? Maybe that train station is located where there is a concentration of Anabaptists wearing traditional clothes and that their usage of Amtrak is no different than people of other faith traditions?
And how is it that the Constitution granting people the freedom to practice their religion as they see fit is turned around to a moral obligation on my part to contribute public money at very high rates of subsidy to facilitate that lifestyle?
I believe there is a social obligation to persons in need, both at the individual and governmental level, but the individual response is a moral one whereas the collective or governmental response is justified more by utilitarian concerns of maintaining social order. There is a difference betweent providing high rates of subsidy to Diesel and electric trains to persons keeping a vow of poverty out of religious devotion with the moral demand of caring for the poor. There is a passage by Paul in the New Testament admonishing "If you don't work, you don't eat", and I believe that he was "locking the heels down" of people who didn't understand that distinction.
But I don't know that anyone of the Anabaptist faith tradition is demanding that they be provided with a Diesel or electric propelled train service to accomodate the lifestyle mandated by their faith. I am thinking that others are making that demand on their behalf because they want trains and are trying to come up with excuses for keeping them running.
The reason I call these excuses for keeping the trains running is that is what they are. The thing is that we don't have trains in many places and a lot of people in this country are without train service and manage to get by one way or another. But if there is a proposal to discontinue train service in one location so as to have resources to provide or improve trains service in some location with greater need or greater demand or other greater social benefit, there is this wailing and gnashing of teeth that train service is some kind of UN mandated human right.
And this kind of inflexibility can't be blamed "on Congress" because Congress reacts to the opinions of the people who care about trains. Us. Amtrak cannot even operate like a well-run non-profit that optimizes the services it provides with the level of money it has on hand because train enthusiasts use the political leverage to demand that Amtrak do this or Amtrak keep that sparsely patronized train.
Paul MilenkovicBut I don't know that anyone of the Anabaptist faith tradition is demanding that they be provided with a Diesel or electric propelled train service to accommodate the lifestyle mandated by their faith. I am thinking that others are making that demand on their behalf because they want trains and are trying to come up with excuses for keeping them running.
I think Paul M is on to something there. The cynic in me wonders if it is just a coincidence that this Amish thread shows up shortly after the "Save the Pennsylvanian!" threads have been reiterated over and over? It does serve an area where or near where a good number of Amish and Mennonites have lived, so is this yet another justification for running a train that seems fairly unneeded compared to the needs of other, not/never-served-by- Amtrak areas?
Paul,
As I understand your position you consider government appropriations to Amtrak as an unwarranted subsidy to riders for no particular reason at all. The fact that some Amtrak riders are fairly affluent itself argues against that subsidy.
My own position is that Amtrak is an important part of our over all transportation system and Amtrak appropriations are needed to maintain that part.
I doubt we shall ever see eye to eye on this issue. I think all we can do is agree to disagree.
I am deliberately not commenting on the religious issue because I feel uncomfortable discussing other people's religious beliefs.
In the long term this is all probably a moot point. I'd be amazed if in 100 years time there are any Amish at all, at least not how we understand the term today. It's evolution. As the country becomes more "homogenized" any local cultures are going to have to be VERY strong to survive.
It's not wrong, it's not right, it's just the way it is. At any rate I won't be here to find out if I was correct.
BaltACD Most of the Amish communities I am familiar with do not have Amtrak stations within buggy distance, and would need some form of motorized conveyance to be able to utilize Amtrak. My understanding of the Amish, they cannot own automobiles, have no electricy at their homes, no indoor plumbing or toilet facilities. However, they are permitted the use of electric lights, electronics, and power tools in the operation of their businesses. Mennonites, who inhabit the same areas as Amish and have a similar manner of dress, are permitted to own and operate automobiles. The 'Amish Mafia' show broadcast on the Discovery Channel offers some insights into a Amish community. How accurate it is, is open to question.
Amish Mafia show is 100% road apples. It's entertaining and creative - but complete BS.
Mennonites range from very strict (even stricter than most amish) to very casual to the point you wouldn't even know they were Mennonite unless they told you.
As far as Amish, a lot depends on their local bishops. Many of them do have smartphones, computers, hire an Englishmen if they want to drive somewhere, or just use their kids' cars. The kids don't join the church until they are adults. They won't use a gas-powered tractor to spray weeds, but they'll use a horse-powered wagon with a gas-powered weed sprayer strapped to it. There is a lot of picking and choosing. There's also a lot of local strife about how certain laws and regulations are enforced (or more appropriately) not enforced in the Amish community. Things like child labor, OSHA regs, sewage treatment, food safety, and puppy mills. They are Amtrak supporters, though.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
You cant ignore your base customers- Amish,Students, Senoir Citizens(There are more now then ever),Disabled,people who live in rural communitys, Familys traveling together and folks who live in major citys who just dont have cars. Amtrak has been trying to go after the buisness traveler when in fact is has a pool of 40 million people that ride the greyhound bus and train every year. I have also noticed that connecting flights from small airports to major hubs can be as much as 500.00 a ticket like Waterloo IA to Chicago. Amtrak should stop trying to be a airline and just concentrate on being a good old fasioned railroad with comfy wide seats that you can sleep in no matter how big you are
BonasYou cant ignore your base customers- Amish,Students, Senoir Citizens(There are more now then ever),Disabled,people who live in rural communitys, Familys traveling together and folks who live in major citys who just dont have cars.
Actually Amtrak has been quite successful in recruiting more customers. It has been especially successful in recent years. Today it has more customers than ever.
John WR BonasYou cant ignore your base customers- Amish,Students, Senoir Citizens(There are more now then ever),Disabled,people who live in rural communitys, Familys traveling together and folks who live in major citys who just dont have cars. Actually Amtrak has been quite successful in recruiting more customers. It has been especially successful in recent years. Today it has more customers than ever.
Nearly all the growth has been on corridors. That's the success story. That's where future growth will be. That's where the money should be spent.
Trains as a tool for social justice is a tough sell. If mobility is a basic right, there are better ways to get mobility to all than Amtrak LD trains.
John WR Paul, As I understand your position you consider government appropriations to Amtrak as an unwarranted subsidy to riders for no particular reason at all.
As I understand your position you consider government appropriations to Amtrak as an unwarranted subsidy to riders for no particular reason at all.
That is a complete misunderstanding of my position. I have never said here or any other place that I advocate doing away with trains or the subsidy for trains or even doing away with the long-distance trains.
What I do say, perhaps repeatedly and to the annoyance of some, is that those of us who advocate for trains and advocate for public money for trains need to come up with better reasons for trains or come up with a better-reasoned case. Or we should put our support behind those trains that make the most sense for the reasons we put forth.
Advocating for something with the wrong reasons or with weak reasons can actually weaken a cause. The Environmental Movement sometimes advances wrong reasons, weak reasons, or perhaps reasons on which there is legitimate argument one way or the other. But the Environmental Movement can get away with that sometimes because who is "against the environment" and in favor of drinking bad water, breathing polluted air, and seeing animals go extinct? But even with the Motherhood and Apple Pie force behind it, certain policies coming out the Environmental Movement are not universally accepted and are subject to intense public debate.
Passenger train advocacy is a Motherhood and Apple Pie issue with a much narrower segment of the population than the Environmental Movement. No one wants to drink yucky water but the segment of the population with an enthusiasm for trains simply for the sake of trains is much narrower.
Passenger train advocacy has attempted to hitch its star to the Environmental Movement -- trains can relieve highway congestion, trains can prevent the need to pave over more farm and natural land, trains can reduce pollution, trains can reduce the environmental harm of oil production, and so on.
Many of us passenger train advocates support the environment, actually, we all do. Who wants to drink yucky water? But to our frustration, the support of environment advocates for trains can be mixed. From the standpoint of the environment, we are not the Environmental Movement, rather, we are advocates of a narrow solution to part of the environmental puzzle. We are the Ethanol Lobby. Many environmentalists support ethanol, but there are also many skeptics who think Ethanol may be doing more harm to the environment than good when you take in the demands for and stress on farmland and on soils.
Please accept my apology for mis stating your position. I did believe you to be opposed to Amtrak subsidy but, as your current post points out, I was mistaken. I regret my error.
So far I have not commented about Amtrak advocates. I would have to think about that issue before expressing myself on it.
Paul Milenkovic I have never said here or any other place that I advocate doing away with trains or the subsidy for trains or even doing away with the long-distance trains. What I do say, perhaps repeatedly and to the annoyance of some, is that those of us who advocate for trains and advocate for public money for trains need to come up with better reasons for trains or come up with a better-reasoned case. Or we should put our support behind those trains that make the most sense for the reasons we put forth. Advocating for something with the wrong reasons or with weak reasons can actually weaken a cause.
I have never said here or any other place that I advocate doing away with trains or the subsidy for trains or even doing away with the long-distance trains.
Advocating for something with the wrong reasons or with weak reasons can actually weaken a cause.
With that succinct exposition, I agree entirely. Thank you, Paul for the clarification, and sorry if I have misunderstood your positions.
Mine is simply that Amtrak (or any other passenger rail service provider) should concentrate on providing basic transportation for the most people that is rational in the sectors where it can be competitive.
oltmannd Nearly all the growth has been on corridors. That's the success story. That's where future growth will be. That's where the money should be spent. Trains as a tool for social justice is a tough sell. If mobility is a basic right, there are better ways to get mobility to all than Amtrak LD trains.
My views on preserving long distance trains for the benefit of tourism, handicapped and elderly, alternatives in emergencies, tying the corridors together, more equitable distribution of the subsidy to all citizens, have been expressed many times. I do want to answer "There won't be Amish 100 yeas from now."
I think there will be. Because I have learned that the best approach (for many peope) to the Eternal is through the rituals of ones own ansestors, "Honor thy Father and thy Mother." (Commandment No, 3.) And these rituals can include aspects of daily life, not just what happens in church, synagogue, mosque, ashram, or whatever.
Berfore WWII many Jews were convineced that Orfthodox Judaism, with its diatary laws, no riding on the Sabbath, no starting or stopping electrcial appliances including lights on the Sabbath, etc., was going to die out, and that the efforts of the Reform Movement in the USA to make Judiaism into just one more Protestanr denomination (no differnece in actual living) would succeed. But current demographics are such that in 40 ears most USA Jews will be Orthodox, despite many on retirement following the Biblical command to "rebuild the Land" and moving to Israel. Every Supermarket in the USA now has a wide selection of OU (Orthodox Union) labeled products permitting an Orhdox Jew to live anywhere and keep Kosher. Just like the Amish, there are some disssagreements, Sepharidim allow one to take food off a hot plate or stove and return in on the Sabbath, Ashkenazim do not. Some feel wearing "fringes" exposed is important, others inside the clothing only. Sephardim can eat rice during Passover, Ashkenasim cannot. But we can pray together without problems.
I think the Amish will survive, and I think the USA is better for that.
And I think that long distance trains will survive and the USA is better for that.
http://www.jewishfederations.org/local_includes/downloads/7579.pdf
This link suggests your prediction about the sizes of the different Jewish religious (and non-religious) communities maybe doubtful.
blue streak 11. The first one is locomotives as adding cars to existing trains appears to cause them to be underpowered. Most of these trains appear to be at their car limit with the # of locos they now use. Of course when the AC traction motor locos are on the property that may change but as of now there is no definitive date of AC loco delivery.
Two P42s on a dozen cars underpowered? Gee, I hope not! Amtrak used to use a single HEP equipped E8 or F40 on 8-9 cars on the Shoreline. Balance speed was just about 100 mph. Check out some of the Streamliner schedules and power and compare HP/ton to current Amtrak. Look at the Maple Leaf, Pennsylvanian, et. al. All single unit trains on a half dozen cars or more. The reason many of the Eastern LD trains have two units is protection.
Lots of room for more cars w/o adding a locomotive.
oltmannd blue streak 11. The first one is locomotives as adding cars to existing trains appears to cause them to be underpowered. Most of these trains appear to be at their car limit with the # of locos they now use. Of course when the AC traction motor locos are on the property that may change but as of now there is no definitive date of AC loco delivery. Two P42s on a dozen cars underpowered? Gee, I hope not! Amtrak used to use a single HEP equipped E8 or F40 on 8-9 cars on the Shoreline. Balance speed was just about 100 mph. Check out some of the Streamliner schedules and power and compare HP/ton to current Amtrak. Look at the Maple Leaf, Pennsylvanian, et. al. All single unit trains on a half dozen cars or more. The reason many of the Eastern LD trains have two units is protection. Lots of room for more cars w/o adding a locomotive.
Maybe this "two P42s on a dozen cars" needs its own thread? Maybe this question of Amtrak power dispatch is something we have talked about before? Maybe "Amtrak is run by professional who know what they are doing and shouldn't be second guessed by arm chair railroad tycoons." Yeah, Don, I am talking about you, I mean what do you know about locomotives because your expertise is with freight operations, and like, passenger locomotives are so totally different
OK, seriously, people, I have wondered about the locomotive question. Is it a question of having enough power to trains can accelerate more quickly and make up time for scheduled as where as unseen slow running? Is it a question of Amtrak being underfunded and that their locomotives are old and unreliable and they need pairs of locomotives not to get stuck? Is it that they have the locomotives and people dispatch locomotives for "insurance" or that fuel economy is not an institutional priority in Amtrak in comparison to not getting stuck out on the road?
I think (strictly as an amateur) that Paul and Don are on to something here. Why run extra engines in a consist merely to keep on a schedule if one engine partly or totally conks out? That implies that mechanical problems are a fairly frequent occurrence. Why? Can't the maintenance folk keep the P42s in good repair? Is this seen also on the freight lines?
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