Today's out-of-left field idea:
Why have baggage cars at all for single level trains. Just build baggage compartments under the floor like a bus. Lots of unutilized space down there. Would allow checked baggage service at every podunk flag stop in the network.
The big show stopper would be places with high level platforms, but even that could be solvable... Money you save by not owning or operating could fund quite a bit of platform reconstruction.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
I've often thought the same. One advantage would be that in cases where some cars are switched in or out of a train (rarely done any more, I think), the baggage would automatically go with it's owner.
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"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
I wonder if anyone ever observes the loading/unloading of baggage cars on LD trains? Most folks travel much lighter today than 50 years ago. Who uses a trunk?
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
oltmannd Why have baggage cars at all for single level trains.
Why have baggage cars at all for single level trains.
To my mind one of Amtrak's advantages is its generous baggage allowance. Even with the recent restrictions Amtrak will accept a lot more baggage than planes or buses. Because trains by there nature are large Amtrak can afford to do this. While most riders do not check baggage some do and it can be important to those who do use the service.
As I understand the point, there are costs to hauling around a baggage care and often baggage cars are almost completely empty.
Under car baggage compartments do make sense except at stations with high level platforms. I can only wonder how a baggage handler could get to an under car compartment at New York Penn Station.
What occurs to me is that there doesn't have to be a whole baggage car. A section of any kind of car could be used for baggage and the rest could be a coach or a sleeping care. But when Amtrak has baggage cars it may make more sense to use them rather than buying a new combination car.
PS. Maybe it is time to reconsider Amtrak Express Service. I know the idea was tried and abandoned as it was not profitable. But perhaps with more careful planning the idea could be profitable.
schlimmI wonder if anyone ever observes the loading/unloading of baggage cars on LD trains? Most folks travel much lighter today than 50 years ago. Who uses a trunk?
..and how many backs are bent out of shape getting baggage on and off the cart/car?
How much usable space is there under a passenger car, with air brake equipment, Air Conditioning equipment, septic holding tanks, etc? If you could fit all the baggage for the entire train under one car, then you would have something. However, if you needed the space spread out over several cars it would be a baggage handling nightmare. Remember the space must also accommodate the Congressionally mandated gun safe.
Convert (or better still, change before the are finished) the new baggage cars to combines, either half coach half baggage or some other configuration, such as 1/3 baggage, 2/3 coach seating.
I check my bags if I plan on staying at the destination longer than 3 days. I would propose that Amtrak change it's boarding procedure for long distance trans to be the following.
1. Keep the baggage car on the head end or convert part of a coach to carry baggage.
2. At small station stops make the passengers get on the forward car against the baggage and detrain there as well. One 3-4 min stop per train per station. Keep some seats open and reserved for those waiting to check their bags or get them back prior to the station stop.
3. Check the bags on the train or dispense them prior to the small station stop. Hand carry into the baggage part of the car.
Sleeping car passengers that board at the small stop can easily walk to the sleeping car with their carry-on bags, if they can't then the sleeping car attendent or porter can help them for a small fee.
How essential are the baggage cars on the long-distance Superliner runs? I would think a couple of Coach-Baggages could replace those.
eagle1030How essential are the baggage cars on the long-distance Superliner runs? I would think a couple of Coach-Baggages could replace those.
I think that depends on the situation. When I was in the Army an awol bag could easily fit on the luggage rack but my duffle bag had to be checked.
schlimm I wonder if anyone ever observes the loading/unloading of baggage cars on LD trains? Most folks travel much lighter today than 50 years ago. Who uses a trunk?
Johnny
Doesn't Amtrak still carry mail? I remember reading a while back that Amtrak was making a nice chunk of change carrying priority and express mail parcels.
It maybe a little off subject but when did they stop using steam heat cars (converted B units)?
If you're going to left-field luggage stowage... why not do it with bilevel cars... following the way the sesquidecker van Hools used for the Megabus service do it. These don't have possum-bellies (the bottom 'deck' is low-floor) but the rear portion of the lower passenger compartment is currently reserved for luggage bays, and these are (even on the bus!) at what corresponds to high-level-platform height (over the rear and tag axle).
Easy to put slide-out rails and even motor assist to move the luggage outboard for ease and speed of handling, regardless of what side of the car is facing the platform, or if you are at low level...
Naturally the through-car passageway has to be on the upper level if the bay goes side to side like a possum belly -- but that's where you want free walkthrough, and maximum passenger space, anyway, and there's no showstopping reason the idea couldn't be adapted to Superliner or other high-level car design ...
If checked bags are not all in one place on the train you will drastically increase dwell time at each stop.
If you are suggesting that passengers handle their own baggage at every stop, have you ever watched the people who board the train with large bags trying to move and store them?
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
MidlandMikeHow much usable space is there under a passenger car, with air brake equipment, Air Conditioning equipment, septic holding tanks, etc?
On Amfleet and Horizon coaches, a huge amount - take a look some time. Although you might have to rearrange some components. (you forgot potable water tank, HEP transformer, emerg. lighting batteries, but that's about it.)
MidlandMikeHowever, if you needed the space spread out over several cars it would be a baggage handling nightmare.
In some cases it would be easier, some harder. For small stations, car attendant does it right at the platform like bus. At lager locations, not much would change - but you might have to keep track of which car has which bags.
MidlandMikeRemember the space must also accommodate the Congressionally mandated gun safe.
That goes in the compartment on the Cafe car.
oltmanndOn Amfleet and Horizon coaches, a huge amount {of space under cars for baggage]
But Don, as you pointed out some stations have high platforms. How do you get to this space in, say, New York Penn Station?
schlimm Convert (or better still, change before the are finished) the new baggage cars to combines, either half coach half baggage or some other configuration, such as 1/3 baggage, 2/3 coach seating.
Not to go back into history, but if I've understood my reading, Southern Pacific's early/original Coast Daylight had a baggage car, but would handle checked baggage between endpoints San Francisco and Los Angeles (presumably to keep dwell times at intermediate stations).
But, the coaches actually had baggage elevators accessed from the outside. to easily shuttle luggage up to the luggage storage area inside each car.
John WRBut Don, as you pointed out some stations have high platforms. How do you get to this space in, say, New York Penn Station?
You'd have to get clever with the platform design. The platform would have to have a passageway beneath it with a 2 or 3 foot pit to all allow a person to maneuver baggage carts and baggage should do it. Or, perhaps, strategically placed cut-outs in the platform.
This would not come cheap, but you wouldn't have to do all the platforms at every effected station, just the ones served by LD trains. I would think a dozen or so stations would be cheaper to retrofit than buying dozens of new baggage cars and operating them.
Couldn't single-level coaches have a somewhat larger storage area at the end of the car? DB does that for luggage that is bulky or too heavy to put in overhead storage. Seems to work just fine for them on trains with much heavier passenger loads and very short dwell times at stops, usually only 2-3 minutes. BTW, couldn't Amtrak improve point to point times considerably (outside NEC) by reducing station dwell times, even with no improvement in top speed?
oltmannd The platform would have to have a passageway beneath it with a 2 or 3 foot pit to all allow a person to maneuver baggage carts and baggage should do it. Or, perhaps, strategically placed cut-outs in the platform.
That seems quite possible. Typically high platform stations have baggage elevators already. The pits should be doable.
Also, outside of cities very few stations have high platforms. Even Washington, DC has low platforms. In most stations there would be no problem.
schlimm Couldn't single-level coaches have a somewhat larger storage area at the end of the car? DB does that for luggage that is bulky or too heavy to put in overhead storage. Seems to work just fine for them on trains with much heavier passenger loads and very short dwell times at stops, usually only 2-3 minutes. BTW, couldn't Amtrak improve point to point times considerably (outside NEC) by reducing station dwell times, even with no improvement in top speed?
Want to maximize revenue space per car. Put the baggage where you can't put people.
If you went to bi-level equipment, which would improve revenue even more, you'd have to do a luggage rack. The California cars do it this way.
oltmanndIf you went to bi-level equipment, which would improve revenue even more, you'd have to do a luggage rack. The California cars do it this way.
I've never been in an Amtrak coach that did not have an overhead luggage rack. Some cars also have a place for baggage at one end of the car. It seems to me that this is reasonable as somethings cannot go in the overhead rack and some people put them on the seats.
oltmannd schlimm Couldn't single-level coaches have a somewhat larger storage area at the end of the car? DB does that for luggage that is bulky or too heavy to put in overhead storage. Seems to work just fine for them on trains with much heavier passenger loads and very short dwell times at stops, usually only 2-3 minutes. BTW, couldn't Amtrak improve point to point times considerably (outside NEC) by reducing station dwell times, even with no improvement in top speed? Want to maximize revenue space per car. Put the baggage where you can't put people. If you went to bi-level equipment, which would improve revenue even more, you'd have to do a luggage rack. The California cars do it this way.
schlimmLuggage racks are overhead on Amtrak and DB. A space at the end of the car for heavy and oversized luggage doesn't take that much space. Certainly less time-consuming than having someone retrieve bags from under cars at each stop.
Best to have people handle their own bags. Don't need checked baggage or baggage car at all! But, if you do have to offer it, why not use space that is currently wasted?
If Viewliner sleepers had shelves at one end of the car where passengers could stow the baggage that will not fit in the roomettes or bedrooms, it might not be necessary to check baggage. However, if you are taking an extended trip it may be necessary to have one or two more bags than will fit in your space. Even the shelves on the lower level of a Superliner may be filled with such baggage.
I was astounded the first time we rode in a Viewliner to learn that there is no such space; the 10-6 sleepers that I had ridden had shelves at one end.
I think of seeing a family of (I think) a couple and two young children boarding a Viewliner in Washington. It seemed that each one had two large suitcases. I did not stay around to see how they arranged their baggage.
oltmannd schlimmLuggage racks are overhead on Amtrak and DB. A space at the end of the car for heavy and oversized luggage doesn't take that much space. Certainly less time-consuming than having someone retrieve bags from under cars at each stop. Best to have people handle their own bags. Don't need checked baggage or baggage car at all! But, if you do have to offer it, why not use space that is currently wasted?
WIth respect to the high-level platforms, I think the idea of cutouts to access the baggage racks is too complicated.
But you essentially have two Amtraks -- the high-level platform Amtrak with clearances that prevent Superliners, Auto Trains, etc., and the low-level platform territory where the Superliners and California cars roam. So I guess if you want checked baggage on the Florida trains into Penn Station, yes, you will need some kind of single-level baggage car. By the way, a Superliner into Penn Station would not work, even if you could get into through the tunnels, because it doesn't support boarding from high-level platforms.
But these alternative ideas should be considered for the everything-but-entry-to-Penn-Station territory. But the way things are going, you are largely talking about Superliners or California cars, the latter seeming to be the new standard for other-than-the-NEC corridors.
But there is this kind of railroad philosophy that every function has a car. You need fuel and water for a (steam) locomotive? There is a tender. Baggage? A baggage car. A place to eat? A dining car. Someplace else to sit and maybe eat a snack because a long distance train trip is too uncomfortable to sit in one place for the duration (even intercity bus lines take you to McDonalds and let you stretch your legs)? A lounge car. A place for mandated rest of on-board crew? A crew dorm (ocean crossing airlines need crew dorm space, but they make do with curtaining off a few coach seats).
With the expense of new rail passenger cars along with the seemingly high maintenance costs to keep those cars rolling, maybe this pattern of a train car for every function is dated.
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
Paul MilenkovicWith the expense of new rail passenger cars along with the seemingly high maintenance costs to keep those cars rolling, maybe this pattern of a train car for every function is dated.
But there was a time when there were even more special use cars. The New Haven even in its poorest days ran real dining cars but now there are none on the Northeast Corridor Line.
Which is not to say that Amtrak should return to library cars and similar amenities.
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