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Manhattan Elevated Gone 60 Years Today

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, June 18, 2015 2:54 PM

The exceptions were the Culver Shuttle line from Ditmas to 9th Avenue that saw BMT steels from Coney Island to Chambers Street Manhattan via the 4th Avenue subway, with two stations on the line, now torn down, and the Bronx Park spur running north from 177thStreet - West Farms Squar eto 180th Street Bronx Park, two removed elevated structures regulary used by steel subway trains.

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Posted by RICHARD DEARMOND on Wednesday, June 17, 2015 1:24 AM
All the els that exist today are parts of the underground system. The abandoned els were never part of the subway system per se.
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Posted by 54light15 on Saturday, May 30, 2015 9:37 AM

You are absolutley right, my friend! Eating a cruise ship? That sounds better than "Citizen Kane!" Hell, better than 10 Super Bowls!

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Posted by Firelock76 on Friday, May 29, 2015 5:10 PM

Hey, never mind "Sharknado", I've seem clips from the Sci-Fi Channel's version, new-updated-and rebooted, of "Moby Dick."  WOW, that looks cool!  Ol' Moby eats a submarine, a helicopter, and a cruise ship!  I'd LOVE to see the whole thing!

Hellava lot more action than a "Doctor Who" episode.

Besides, what's the point of an over-the-top monster movie if it doesn't have the "what's it gonna eat next?" factor? 

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Posted by 54light15 on Thursday, May 28, 2015 7:51 PM

I saw a documentary about sharks fighting the sewer gators. Wait, it wasn't a documentary. It was Sharknado 2 where the sharks invade New York. Sharknado 1 was superb enough, the sequel was even better. I mean really, how many sharks do you see in Jaws? One! How many in the Sharknado pictures? Thousands! Hanging from the runner of a helicopter! Impaled on the antenna of the Empire State Building! Bursting through the chest of Toronto mayor Rob Ford! Doesn't get any better than that and all you need is beer.

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Posted by narig01 on Thursday, May 28, 2015 5:18 PM

Firelock76

Interesting responses to the scrap sale all.  I suppose we can chalk this up to an "urban legend" that once it grew legs, there was no stopping it. 

Now about those alligators in the New York City sewers...

 

Can't say about alligators, except maybe on Wall St. However the subways have  been a virtual zoological garden. Sharks, cats, rats amongst other critters. And I almost forgot the AFLAC duck!

 

This is from a couple of years ago.

The AFLAC duck was accused of jumping the turnstiles in the NYC subway. Or should I say he ducked.

http://gothamist.com/2013/09/23/duck_spotted_turnstile_jumping_in_t.php

The previous stories.

A shark

http://gothamist.com/2013/08/07/photos_dead_shark_on_subway.php#photo-1

And kittens

http://gothamist.com/2013/08/29/video_adorable_kittens_frolic_on_su.php

In an interview with the gothamist an MTA spokesperson was quoted as saying MTA had mammal handlers :•}. Of course of all these incidents the only mammals were the kittens. The latest involved a fowl.
Enjoy everyone.

Thx IGN

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Posted by Firelock76 on Thursday, May 28, 2015 4:45 PM

Interesting responses to the scrap sale all.  I suppose we can chalk this up to an "urban legend" that once it grew legs, there was no stopping it. 

Now about those alligators in the New York City sewers...

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Posted by narig01 on Thursday, May 28, 2015 4:41 PM

Firelock76

Thanks for that detailed response Dave!  I'd heard one of the El's went to Japan as scrap, but didn't think it was so many of them.

My God, if the people selling the scrap only knew...

 

Everyone involved in scraping the 6th Av El vehemently denied the scrap went to Japan. LaGuardia denied during WWII that none of scrap was sold to Japan. At a meeting of the New York City Board of Estimate in 1942, Stanley M. Isaacs, the Manhattan Borough President, denied that steel from the El was sold to Japan.  

      In 1961, a Harvey Smedley an attorney for the Harris Structural Steel Company, which was involved in the demolition, wrote syndicated columnist George Sokolosy that the reports of the sale of steel from the El to Japan were incorrect. 

    In both it was claimed that the demolition contract had provisions forbidding export of the scrap. What is more likely is this scrap replaced scrap being exported from the west coast. In 1940 the US imposed an export ban to punish Japan for its war of aggresion in China(Japanese actions in China before and during WWII were even worse then what Nazi Germany had done). 

        If someone has the time and the ability to research this it would make an interesting read. New York since the consolidation of 1898 has kept all its records of doing business(at least copies of city contracts, but no great records of the bribery have emerged).

Rgds IGN 

PS The George Sokolsky column piece on the denial:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=7CEsAAAAIBAJ&sjid=E54FAAAAIBAJ&pg=927,1975011&dq=scrap+metal+japan+sixth-avenue&hl=en

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Posted by LimaPapa03 on Wednesday, May 27, 2015 12:14 PM

South Ferry had the 2,3,6,9, avenue els plus the 1,5,4, IRT and the N<R<W< BMT lines, and the Bowling Green Shuttle.  Can't beat that for station acess.

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Posted by wanswheel on Wednesday, May 27, 2015 3:20 AM
Excerpt from The New York Times, December 7, 1938
In our grim world of today it is conceivable that 20,000 tons of steel from the Sixth Avenue "L" may ultimately take the form of explosive shells raining down from Japanese bombers on a Chinese city. The prospective purchaser of the old elevated structure is a dealer in such things on the Pacific Coast. He is also in the export business.
Excerpt from The New Yorker, February 17, 1945
Slow-footed truth has not yet caught up with the winged lie, and the canard of the Sixth Avenue “L has now reached the two-color-display-advertising stage. In Time of Jan. 22nd, the Bryant Chucking Grinder Company ran a full-page ad headed "Remember when we sent the Sixth Avenue El to Pearl Harbor. We sold it to Japan for scrap, brother, and they threw it right back in our faces!" A gripping story but untrue. Japan got no part of it. 98 per cent of the salvaged steel and iron went to the Bethlehem Steel Co. in Pennsylvania for re-melting. One and nine-tenths per cent went to W. Ames & Co., N. J. for remelting. The remainder went to a N.J. garage.
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Posted by mike0227 on Tuesday, May 26, 2015 10:31 PM

Firelock76
While we're on the subject, just what "El" was it that was scrapped and sold to the Japanese that they turned into the bombs that were dropped on Pearl Harbor?  I heard that urban legend a looooong time ago.

It was the 6th Avenue El.  I think the 9th Avenue El may have met a similar fate.  In addition, the Delaware Avenue Elevated in Philadelphia (originally built in 1908 as the east end of the Market Street Subway-Elevated...the Frankford El opened in November, 1922, and the Delaware Avenue El became a branch until it closed in May, 1939)was taken down in 1940, and once again, agents acting for Japanese interests bought the scrap metal.

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, May 25, 2015 3:13 AM

Narig found the evidence that this scrap did not go to Japan.   He will surely post the evidence shortly.   However, there is nothing to have prevented this scrap from replacing other scrap that then could be sold to Japan. In 1938, that is.  In 1940, it would have been tougher because of certain restrictive export laws that were passed after Britain and France were involved in WWII in 1939, after the Axis of Japan, Germany, and Italy had formed.

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Posted by narig01 on Friday, May 22, 2015 3:39 PM

Firelock76

It's a train, it's above ground on a no-nonsense steel trestle, it's in New York, it might as well be an "El" even if it's really the subway come up for a breath of fresh air.

While we're on the subject, just what "El" was it that was scrapped and sold to the Japanese that they turned into the bombs that were dropped on Pearl Harbor?  I heard that urban legend a looooong time ago.

 

FWIW. I remember reading that LaGuardia denied that the iron from the Manhattan El's went to Japan.  I do not think the 2nd Av El scrap went there as there was a trade embargo against Japan starting about 1940 I think. 

      LaGuardia's denial was about on a par with his denial of having been to Bridgeport when asked during the Mayorial debates in 1929. Mayor Walker had asked him what he was doing in Bridgeport and LaGuadia denied having even been to Bridgeport. Mostly Walker was winding LaGuardia up. 

 

Rgds IGN          

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Posted by Firelock76 on Thursday, May 21, 2015 5:25 PM

Thanks for that detailed response Dave!  I'd heard one of the El's went to Japan as scrap, but didn't think it was so many of them.

My God, if the people selling the scrap only knew...

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, May 21, 2015 1:14 PM

Much of the steel of the 6th Avenue Elevated, scrapped in 1938, went to Japan.  Some of the structures scrapped in 1940 did also, the 9th Avenue, upper portion of the 2nd Avenue, inner portion of the Fulton Street elevated in Brooklyn, and the 5th Avenue (Brooiklyn) Elevated and its Bay Ridge (3rd Avenue) branch.

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Posted by Firelock76 on Wednesday, May 20, 2015 5:11 PM

It's a train, it's above ground on a no-nonsense steel trestle, it's in New York, it might as well be an "El" even if it's really the subway come up for a breath of fresh air.

While we're on the subject, just what "El" was it that was scrapped and sold to the Japanese that they turned into the bombs that were dropped on Pearl Harbor?  I heard that urban legend a looooong time ago.

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Posted by 54light15 on Wednesday, May 20, 2015 1:40 PM

Potato, potahtoe. Stick out tongue

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Wednesday, May 20, 2015 9:58 AM

54light15

You want to see the El in a movie? Do I really need to tell you about "the French Connection?"

 
That was the subway, even though it's above ground.  El generally refers to the long-gone Manhattan Els.
 
Conversely, in Chicago it's always the "L", even when it runs under State or Dearborn Streets.
The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by 54light15 on Wednesday, May 20, 2015 9:45 AM

I agree, Firelock, and leave us not forget the superb classic, "Angels With Dirty Faces" How do you know an old movie is great? Is James Cagney in it? Then it's great. On the first day of shooting, the director, Michael Curtiz said, "Action!" Leo Gorcey made a wisecrack and Jimmy punched him in the nose. Told him, "We are professionals and we do not waste these people's time." Apparently the BBs gave Bogart a hard time during filming of "Dead End." Yep, I watched all the BB films. I recall that they were officially called "East Side Comedy" on the TV station  but no one I knew called them that. My sister had a crush on Satch if you can believe that!

You want to see the El in a movie? Do I really need to tell you about "the French Connection?"

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, May 20, 2015 4:04 AM

Ulrich

I lived in NYC as a little kid and remember the elevated lines in north Manhattan in 1972. The City is much MUCH improved since then although sadly most of the EI is gone.

The elevateds you saw in Manhattan were the two structures I noted, Broadway from Dyckman-200th Street north to the Harlem River, and the Manhatenville Valley Viaduct. The are still in use. All other Manhattan elevateds were gone by the end of 1955.

 

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Posted by Firelock76 on Tuesday, May 19, 2015 4:56 PM

54light15

60 years ago? Then obviously I was wrong when I remembered an elevated track over the Bowery when I was a kid on account I was born 60 years ago. Then where was I? Couldn't have been the Bowery since I never met Slip Mahoney or Satch.

Anudder ex Noo Yawker.

 

I don't know man, maybe you watched those old "Bowery Boys" movies so much you THOUGHT you were there.   Kind of like me being a military history buff and having flash-backs to wars I was never in!

PS:  I loved those "Bowery Boys" movies when I was growing up in Northern New Jersey, good old Channel Five!  They may have been a "Poverty Row" production but I wish there were films around today as sharply written as those old "BB" films were. 

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Posted by Ulrich on Tuesday, May 19, 2015 9:00 AM

I lived in NYC as a little kid and remember the elevated lines in north Manhattan in 1972. The City is much MUCH improved since then although sadly most of the EI is gone.

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, May 19, 2015 7:33 AM

Although officially a subway line, all the Williamsburg Bridge routs operate largely on an elevated structure, the Broadway Brooklyn elevated, which was strengthened for steel cars.  But the oldest structure still in use on the New York system is the stretch east of Broadway Junction - East New York- Eastern Parkway, on Fulton Street East, originally planned for three tracks like the portion on Broadway, but the center track never installed because of its added weight .  This structure is easily over 100 years old and still in use.  The J and rush hour Z use it.   In Manhattan, the 1 line is on a structure north of Dykeman 200th Street until it crosses what I still call the Kingsbridge but is officially the Broadway Bridge into the Bronx.  Also on the same rout there is the Manhattenville Valley Viaducte with the 125th Street Station.  Other than those two, Manhattan lacks elevateds as such.  In addition to the Williamsburg Bridge, with its J, M, and Z trains, the Manhattan Bridge has four tracks, with the B and D on the north pair, and the N and Q on the south pair, the main roadway between.   Above each pair of rapid transit tracks there used to be a pair of streetcar tracks, with wire only on the south pair and both wire and conduit on the north pair.   Those lanes are now private-car and taxi roadways, one in each direction.

The Brooklyn and Queensboro bridges had both elevated and streetcar tracks at one time, gone.  At one time eight Brooklyn elevated lines converged on the Brooklyn Bridge, while 2nd Avenue elevated trains used the Quennsboro Bridge until 1942.

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Monday, May 18, 2015 7:01 AM

They still do.  I believe that several routes use the Williamsburg Bridge.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by MidlandMike on Sunday, May 17, 2015 9:55 PM

54light15

60 years ago? Then obviously I was wrong when I remembered an elevated track over the Bowery when I was a kid on account I was born 60 years ago. Then where was I? Couldn't have been the Bowery since I never met Slip Mahoney or Satch.

Anudder ex Noo Yawker.

 

The last El operated 60 years ago, but I imagine it was some time before they were torn down.  Also, didn't some of the subways use the bridges to cross the East River?

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, May 17, 2015 11:24 AM

More to the point, what did he do after the 9th Avenue elevated quit in 1940?  I began going downtown from school and meeting my mom and dad and returning with them to our uptown house.  I was careful to note that that we would not get on an E train to Queens.   Often they would treat me to a restaurant dinner in the area near Penn Station, sometimes a chinese restaurant.  Otherwise, well if DAd and sometimes both ended in Queens, my homecooked dinner would be late.  The Sixth Avenus Subway opened later, after the 9th Avenue elevated was abandoned.  But Dad and often both parents (Mom was his office Nurse having a Pharmasist's degree) usually went downtown at hours when the AA local was providing the Central Park West local service, with the BB and CC the rush-hour service only.  BB, Washington Hieghts - 6th Avenue, CC, Bronx Concourse - 8th Avenue, and AA, Washington Heights, - 8th Avenue.  Usually no problem.

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Posted by 54light15 on Sunday, May 17, 2015 10:22 AM

60 years ago? Then obviously I was wrong when I remembered an elevated track over the Bowery when I was a kid on account I was born 60 years ago. Then where was I? Couldn't have been the Bowery since I never met Slip Mahoney or Satch.

Anudder ex Noo Yawker.

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Posted by narig01 on Saturday, May 16, 2015 9:03 PM

daveklepper

My Dad was a physician and surgeon, an eye-ear-nose-and-throat specialist.  He had an office where we lived on West 85th Street, and another on West 29th Street.  He was often distracted by thinking about his patients' illnesses when commuting.  Going downtown, he abandoned the Ninth Avenue elevated when the Eight Avenue subway opened in 1932, at first using it in both directions.  Because going downtown, he would occasionally board a Sixth Avenue train which meant a longer walk than getting off a Ninth Avenue train practically at the corner.  In 1932, no problem like that on the subway.  But then in 1933 one day after the E train started running to Queens (E still uses the local track in Manhattan), he boarded that instead of the CC.  So the routine for all of us was to go downtown on the subway and uptown on the elevated. Could not make a mistake that way.

 

What did he do after the 6th Av subway opened in 1940?

 

Rgds IGN

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, May 13, 2015 10:16 AM

Manhattan elevateds:  Sixth Avenue abandoned in 1938, northern portion of Second Avenue and all of Ninth Avenue south of 155th Street abandoned in 1940, southern half of Second Avenue and Queensboro Bridge connection to Queen Plaza abandoned in 1942.   Brooklyn elevateds, the remaining two, to Park Row, Manhattan, via the Brooklyn Bridge, abandoned ini 1944, with the center tracks then used by streetcars until 1948, instead of outer roadway tracks.  Third Avenue lost the South Ferry - Chatham Square portion about 1952, then Citiy Hall  (Park Row)-Chatham Sqaure about 1953 or 1954, before removal south of 149th Street, The Bronx, in 1955.

My Dad was a physician and surgeon, an eye-ear-nose-and-throat specialist.  He had an office where we lived on West 85th Street, and another on West 29th Street.  He was often distracted by thinking about his patients' illnesses when commuting.  Going downtown, he abandoned the Ninth Avenue elevated when the Eight Avenue subway opened in 1932, at first using it in both directions.  Because going downtown, he would occasionally board a Sixth Avenue train which meant a longer walk than getting off a Ninth Avenue train practically at the corner.  In 1932, no problem like that on the subway.  But then in 1933 one day after the E train started running to Queens (E still uses the local track in Manhattan), he boarded that instead of the CC.  So the routine for all of us was to go downtown on the subway and uptown on the elevated. Could not make a mistake that way.

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