Glad San Francisco did decide to keep the cable cars. Always one of my favorite things to see and do when I visit. Always a fun ride and they work well for the hills.
The Broadway Cable Railway Company building is still there, 611 Broadway, corner of Houston Street, known as the Cable Building. It was designed and built in the 1890's by McKim, Mead, & White, America's pre-eminent architectural firm of the time. It housed the cable company's hedquarters and cable powerhouse; the deep basements housed the immense boilers and cable-spinning equipment (long-ago removed). Today the Cable Building houses retail stores and rental office spaces.
Everything else said, being a grip man requires a good deal of skill. When the car goes around a curve, the rope has to be dropped lest the rope be pulled out of the rollers. Also, the modern systems have detectors for broken wire strands as those can catch on the grip of a car, leading to a wreck.
Also muscle-power. But some gripmen would not trade their jobs for anything.
For more on San Francisco, visit www.streetcar.org
trackrat888 Devil is in the details...cable cars are alive and well in the form of some people movers
Devil is in the details...cable cars are alive and well in the form of some people movers
Not quite the same. There is one car per cable, the car is permanently attached to the cable, and moves only when the cable moves. It is far more like an elevator than a cable car.
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The same companies that make people movers also make aerial trams with multiple cars that detatch from the cable to load/unload. I would not count out the application of the automatic detactchable grip technology to rail cable cars.
MidlandMike The same companies that make people movers also make aerial trams with multiple cars that detatch from the cable to load/unload. I would not count out the application of the automatic detactchable grip technology to rail cable cars.
attach and detach at multiple places along the line, just not at the end points? And go around 90 degree curves?
Buslist MidlandMike The same companies that make people movers also make aerial trams with multiple cars that detatch from the cable to load/unload. I would not count out the application of the automatic detactchable grip technology to rail cable cars. attach and detach at multiple places along the line, just not at the end points? And go around 90 degree curves?
An aerial gondola at Breckenridge, CO ski area goes from a parking lot to a condo area, then to two base areas. So 2 intermediate stops, and it makes sharp bends at the intermediate points. At the load/unload points the gondola automatically detaches from the higher speed cable, and then rides on an overhead rail pulled along at a slower rate for passenger loading, and then re-grips the cable. If the line changes direction, it is at these points. I have noticed at some intermediate stations that the segments have their own cable runs.
MidlandMikeThe same companies that make people movers also make aerial trams with multiple cars that detatch from the cable to load/unload. I would not count out the application of the automatic detactchable grip technology to rail cable cars.
Would be very dangerous on a street railway.
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DSchmitt MidlandMike The same companies that make people movers also make aerial trams with multiple cars that detatch from the cable to load/unload. I would not count out the application of the automatic detactchable grip technology to rail cable cars. Would be very dangerous on a street railway.
I would envision that a modern cable car would run on traffic lanes that exclude cars, and traffic lights would be controlled for transit preference. Still an operator would be needed to stop for errant cars and emergency vehicles.
All of this begs the question, why would any agency use obsolete cable car technology when electrically-powered cars powered by overhead wire are much more practical?
CSSHEGEWISCH All of this begs the question, why would any agency use obsolete cable car technology when electrically-powered cars powered by overhead wire are much more practical?
The original question was "would cable propulsion work if grades were too steep for conventional traction". My answer "select a different route"
Other solutions include rack-pinon-operation for the steep grade only, typical in Switzerland, or use of funicular assist, either the Cincinnati Mt. Adams variety (train rides a flat-car funicular) or the Triest Optotrain variety (train is pushed up and braked down by funicular dummies on the down end of the train)
YOu can ride and photograph the Optotrain in Triest. I think the Mt.Adams incline still works-for buses. Several routes in Switzerland for the rack examples, including Diessentis - Andat, Interlaken - Lucern, Interlaken - Klein Sheidigg (spelling on all?).
The fact that they are still building cable cars at airports (where they could and do use electric) indicates it is still a viable technology, that could possibly be modified for street use.
MidlandMike CSSHEGEWISCH All of this begs the question, why would any agency use obsolete cable car technology when electrically-powered cars powered by overhead wire are much more practical? The fact that they are still building cable cars at airports (where they could and do use electric) indicates it is still a viable technology, that could possibly be modified for street use.
Because they are not it the street railway sense of cable cars but horizontal elevators. Please read earlier comments.
Buslist MidlandMike CSSHEGEWISCH All of this begs the question, why would any agency use obsolete cable car technology when electrically-powered cars powered by overhead wire are much more practical? The fact that they are still building cable cars at airports (where they could and do use electric) indicates it is still a viable technology, that could possibly be modified for street use. Because they are not it the street railway sense of cable cars but horizontal elevators. Please read earlier comments.
And I have explained how they may be applicable to street railways. Please read earlier comments that may be contrary to your line of thought.
DragomanOn the very steepest hills, they do continue to have a function -- it's called a funicular.
Falcon48, I don't argue with what was happening with technology 80 years ago. Nevertheless, in modern times, after a number of electric tram systems were built at airports, I noticed new cable systems starting to be built there. Technology evolves, and some airports saw advantages to cable. I don't expect to see something like a San Fran. central hoist cable system to be built, however, I would not rule out some more modern concept of a cable street system to be developed.
Has San Francisco Muni ever proposed putting back any cablecar routes that were abandoned in the early 1950's. Such as the California Street line going west of Van Ness for a mile or so.
I seriously doubt it. The expense of extending a cable car route, even a mile, would be astronomical. Consider that you would need to extend the rails and cable slot, install new cable machinery under the slot, install a longer cable, etc.
Longer cable not a problem. It is replaced at regular intervals by a very neat cable splicing method.
Cable railways of the Funicular type will continiue to be built because they are an economical solution to specific transportation situations. Except for the possible historic revival in Dundee, New Zealand, I doubt very much if any new grip-type cable. The Glascow and Haifa subway lines are really Funiculars. But Glascow's is a circular line, not a hill-climber.
As has been pointed out earlier the new generation of cable powered "transit" in airports are really horizontal elevators. They are limited to their own track, no switching they have the advantage of having a centrally located driving motor and no need to have propulsion power distribution. That is a very limited application environment.
In reply to usmc1401: There is no need to spend the required new money on extending the California Street line since that street west of Van Ness has trackless trolleys to serve the travel needs of residents. Tourists, the real market for cable cars these days, are perfectly happy to go out to Van Ness and back to Market Street.
In reply to the larger question of cable cars having a renaissance in other cities: This will happen when transit authorities in Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Chicago, etc. can figure out a way to have people pay $6 a ride as they do on the Barbary Coast. But I don't think any city in the USA can match San Francisco in its tourist appeal, do you?
By the way, in 1971 I paid 25 cents per ride for cable cars, streetcars, buses, etc. But I unhesitatingly shell out $6 to ride the cable cars because, really, where else can one do that?
Buslist As has been pointed out earlier the new generation of cable powered "transit" in airports are really horizontal elevators. They are limited to their own track, no switching they have the advantage of having a centrally located driving motor and no need to have propulsion power distribution. That is a very limited application environment.
They are not limited to their own track, they have switches to meet other cable cars, and they have multiple cars running on the same track and multiple cables. They are only limited by how complicatd you want to build the system.
Please give examples to back up your statement. Where is cable powered "transit" in airports that is not limited to their own track, have switches to meet other cable cars, or have multiple cars running on the same track and multiple cables?
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gardendance Please give examples to back up your statement. Where is cable powered "transit" in airports that is not limited to their own track, have switches to meet other cable cars, or have multiple cars running on the same track and multiple cables?
I doubt he can. From earlier posts by me with edits for emphasis:
"While the the "people movers" may superficially resemble traditional cable cars, they do not release the cable to stop. The cars are "permanately" attached to the cable. The cable stops moving to stop the cars. The movement of the cable (and thus the cars) is controlled automatically by a program to stop the cars at pre-set locations. They also operate on controlled access right of way so there is no conflict with other traffic.
--This type system has can have multiple cars but the all operate on one cable in lockstep. Station spacing and car spacing is such that they all stop at a station at the same time--
This type system goes back to the earliest days of cable car operations, where the cable movement was manually controlled by an engine operator. --on the ground at the location of the engine--
The Detroit Airport system is a little different and more advanced than most other systems. It consists of two separate cars each on its own cable. Each car operates like an elevator (a horizontal elevator) It is actually a little more complicated because both cars use the same guideway (track) and must pass in opposite directions at a central location where there is a passing section. --so there are switches on the track-- The system is programed to override (delay the execuation) of passenger calls as necessary to prevent a conflicts."
--Neither system can operate like the traditional cable car. The ability of an operator on the car to attach/detach from the cable and control speed by partial release (allowing the cable to slip through the grip) and brakes on the car is the essence of a cable car system.--
"Cable cars are distinct from funiculars, where the cars are permanently attached to the cable, and cable railways, which are similar to funiculars, but where the rail vehicles are attached and detached manually --not by an operator on the car, click links for more detail on each type--."
A cable railway sounds similar to the system in place on Brazil's Sao Paulo-Santos line before it was converted to a cog-and-rack system.
Just curious: How do the brakes on San Francisco cable cars work? Do they grip a stationary cable or rail? I can't imagine conventional brake shoes on the wheels being effective on those steep hills.
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