Boardman warns NJ commuters

[blue streak 1]

Not much comment needed Boardman is warning about Hudson river ( NORTH ) tunnels having to close prematurely.  One has to wonder what the situation is ?

http://www.capitalnewyork.com/article/city-hall/2014/07/8549155/amtrak-nj-transit-riders-should-be-very-concerned

[henry6]

Boardman shouldn't have to "warn" of the problems these tunnels pose...railroaders and politicians have known, even some have warned, of the age and condition of the tunnels but all sit on their hands while the point fingers at each other and do nothing. Of course, the piece is not really new, Joe has been saying this for quite a while just like many others since the PRR days, since PC, Conrail, NJT, and last Tuesday. The Right points fingers to the Left, the Left to the Right. We don't have the money; we don't have the initiative. We don't have a leader because crossing the Hudson River is in the hands of too many municipalities, too many states, too many countries, too many agencies, too many private companies and not enough "doers" or leaders able to grab the needed bullying by the diesel horns and get it done.

[Anonymous]

Not living in the NY Metropolitan area, I am not that familiar with the issues related to repairing the existing tunnels and/or constructing new tunnels.  I do, however, have a few questions that perhaps people knowledgeable about the issues could address.

If one of the existing tunnels had to be shutdown for repair, presumably the other one would be available for use. What impact would closing one of the tunnels have on traffic flow into and out of Penn Station?

What is the estimated cost to repair the existing tubes?

What was the estimated price tag to build the two new tunnels?

Where does the money for repairing the existing tunnels or building new tunnels come from?

Boardman is addressing the issue from a commuter point of view.  But the larger issue for Amtrak is the impact that disrupting traffic through the existing tunnels would have on Amtrak's operations. The NEC is the only segment in Amtrak's map that covers its operating costs.  What other, perhaps more objective, assessments of the situation and potential solutions have been put forth?

[henry6]

One tube is often closed for some kind of repairs and directional fleeting occurs and schedules are afoul. You are asking questions which others are asking or should be. But for the last 50 years I've heard these questions. Boardman is addressing this from a commuter point of view here and has addressed it from Amtrak's point of view many, many times over his tenure. But questions are not what we need anymore. We need answers, we need action. This subject has been talked about here, there, and everywhere but nobody has the guts to take the matter and say, this is what has to be done, this is who is going to do it. We know full well what will happen if nothing is done not only to NJT commuter services but also to Amtrak. The question is not how much will it cost to do but how much will it cost not to do. The answer is to stop asking questions and do something at any and all costs. Sound reckless? Not as reckless as not doing anything.

[blue streak 1]

henry6

One tube is often closed for some kind of repairs and directional fleeting occurs

 The question is not how much will it cost to do but how much will it cost not to do. The answer is to stop asking questions and do something at any and all costs. Sound reckless? Not as reckless as not doing anything.

As understood one tunnel is closed most weekend from 2300 Friday to 0500 Mondays for maintenance.  That is why no Raritan valley direct trains are run on weekends.  There are often unplanned closing during the week as well usually late at night.  

Does anyone know the operating agreement that NJT uses for the tunnels ? NJT might be able to share the pain or might be completely cut out ?  Either way PATH would not be able to carry the extra passengers from Newark and Hoboken ?   What are the max train lengths and capacities at 33rd street and world trade center.  Also no more NJT mid - town direct. And PA bus terminal ?

 

In the long run it does not matter what the Railroaders and POLS know.  They will hide the facts especially railroaders who are ordered to shut up.  If media will  push this problem awareness --  maybe some commuters will start asking questions ?l   Really hope the messenger does not gets shot ? 

 

The costs of a shut down cannot be calculated.  NYC workers will pay a big price not just persons from NJ.  POLS in states of NY & NJ will pay a big price if they are in office when the fit hits the shan.   POLs in Ma, RI, Conn, Pa, DEL, Md, and DC somewhat less so.  Look out for Christie !

 

Reckless not doing anything ?  extremely so  ?

[wanswheel]

Christie may need to be President.  Otherwise, cancellation of the ARC tunnel could be what history will remember him for, especially if the PRR tunnel fails disastrously after a point in time the ARC tunnel would’ve been completed and in service.

[henry6]

Christie needs not be President...and there are quite a few other things and reasons to remember or forget him....don't ask corporate media to explain any of this...they don't understand, the don't want to understand, and they don't care.... Yes, most weekends only one of the two tunnels are open to traffic with directional fleeting. One Portal bridge opening and the whole thing can be chaos....the idea of PATH usage is good if only it could be planned. You can't pour 8 Bilevel carloads of people onto their platforms with 15 minutes notice and expect them to be viable. I mean take up to 500 people and try to fit them into one 200 capacity Tube train without creating misery at best, complaints and bad rep at worst. OH, they remember and they tell their friends how bad NJT and PATH are and they tell their politicos who order more patch for the crumbling highways and concrete to build more. I can't count how many municipalities on the west shore of the Hudson are involved from town and village through county status, plus the governments and agencies of NY, NJ, even Pennsylvania plus the Federal government and its agencies and departments,and the Port of NY and NJ Authority, not to mention every politician in the region all have ideas and something to say full with supports, denials, and oppositions to everyone else. Maybe Boardman and Obama have to hold hands and bully all others into submission of doing something.

[seppburgh2]

The point is all comes down to who is going to pay.  Growing up in North Jersey in the 60's I though Port Authority was suppose to manage the infrastructure as a joint asset.  Guess that was just so much ink on paper.  

 To give everyone a measurement of the cost, in Pittsburg about 2013 a new 'T' tunnel was open from Dawntawn to the North Side.  The cost of going under the river was $ 500 M.  The Allegheny is only a little bit shorter to cross than the Hudson, so figure the cost in the B range.  My two cents is government wasted the dollars over the year and well has gone dry.  So instead of gliding under the water on rails, the Lackawanna Ferry is coming back instead (think there is one still around and the docks/ramps are still there in Hoboken.)

[Firelock76]

Not such a crazy idea, resurrecting those ferries.  It'd be a hell of a lot cheaper than boring new tunnels, there wouldn't be the issue of environmental impact study after study after study after study, they'd be afloat and under way long before any of the tunnels were finished, (anyone think we'll be alive to see it?), and there's be the attraction of a fine ride as well.

As an aside, not only was the boring of the PRR tunnels 100 years ago an amazing feat of engineering, it's also an amazing example of what can get done if the builders don't have to deal with present day politics and pervasive corruption.

[blue streak 1]

Firelock76

Not such a crazy idea, resurrecting those ferries.  It'd be a hell of a lot cheaper than boring new tunnels,

 

Henry can address this with more authority but how could Hoboken terminal ever handle the traffic?. That is a stub end terminal with how many tracks and limited storage space ?  There is not a good connection from Newark Penn to Hoboken. 

Unless the tracks have are changed I believe the single track NJT Newark to Hoboken crosses at grade the PATH line ? Full NJT service would muck up both lines. At that crossing  believe grade separation is not possible ?.  Was there a collision at that crossing years ago ? 

 

[henry6]

The building of Pennsylvania Station and its attending tunnels were not without politics and social and business agendas...Read Jonas' book about it, less than ten years old. Ferries are great and can actually be faster or as fast as PATH. However, one seat rides with fewer transfers and changes are less confusing and time consuming, thus the success of NJT's Mid Town Direct services. Also, ferries are susceptible to weather conditions: storms, fog, winter ice for example. Cheaper to buy may not be cheaper in other matters in the long run. Bridges across the Hudson in the Manhattan area are out of the question. And it is incredible, at least to me, that there are only two tracks on the National Rail System between the Hudson Shores south of Castleton some 100 miles upstream! (Note: yes, PATH has two sets of tubes, four tracks, under the Hudson but is not part of the National Rail System.) Again the cost of not doing something will be much more than if not done. The social and economic impact and growth could be debilitating. The inability to be able to move in and out of the city via rail could be devastating not just to the city but to the entire east coast. I just had an idea. Former Mayor Blumburg always wanted to restrict automobile traffic in the city, especially downtown. Why not do that. Then convert the Holland Tunnel or one of the Lincoln Tunnels bores to rail? Only buses to and from the city 6AM to 8AM perhaps. Lots of things could be done if we really wanted to do something than take political and economic shots back and forth. The status quo cannot stand.

[daveklepper]

There are ferries operating out of Hoboken now.   I think this is rush hour service only, but to two or more points in Manhattan.   They do not operate when the Hudson is frozen with ice in the winter.  And now they operate out of one or two of the old slips, restored!

[Firelock76]

The Hudson only freezes in the worst winters, and even then not for long.  It was one of the reasons the British wanted New York as a base of operations during both the French and Indian and Revolutionary Wars.    New York harbor had a reputation for being reliably ice-free, and it usually was.

There's very little reason a ferry service couldn't operate year-round and in all but the worst weather, especially with the aids to navigation modern vessels have available.

[henry6]

The Hudson rarely if ever freeze over but there can be chunks of ice and floes making for some fancy footwork in any crossing....there are quite a few ferry routes in and around NY Harbor in both the East and Hudson Rivers...NY Waterwasys mostly with NJ-NY crossings from about 5 NJ docks to three on Manhattan including Pier 11 on the east river. Also East River Waterways and NY Watertaxi. Several other ferry services from both Long Island Sound and Brooklyn and Queens shores. Was one up from NJ Shore but don't know if it still runs. Of course, Staten Island and Governor's Island ferries. And both Rivers services are all day while the longer distance services are rush hour. Last Thurs...7/17...the Ridewithmehenry trip had a great experience when we arrived from Brooklyn on the 2 train to Wall St. and headed for Pier 11 for the NY Waterways ferry to NJ. It was approaching 4PM and streets were being blocked off by NYPD and there were more and more NYPD cars appearing as we walked down Wall St. Soon we could see police and Coast Guard boats with red and blue emergency light all across the water as a Waterways boat and a Waterwaystaxi pulled into the pier. A fire truck was on a pier about a quarter mile downstream and ambulances and police cars were all over the place with lights flashing. We bought our ticket while a guy with an amplified megaphone announced the harbor was closed until further notice, no boats were allowed to leave. For how long, we didn't know. When asked why, it was said, not through the megaphone, that the President was due to arrive. Crowds gathered queuing up to board their respective boats. And boats were treading water in far off Upper Bay and under and above the Brooklyn bridge; perhaps as many as 60 or so craft of all sizes. About a half hour later two Marine Helicopters came from the northeast and landed on the pier where the fire truck was and it was another five or so minutes before a third Marine copter and the President's Helicopter came from the east and landed just beyond the others. To way it was an amazing show is an understatement. But in my mind I saw a preview of an ever better show: the police boats pulling out and the 8 craft at Pier 11 pushing off and all those other boats vying for position without running into one another. And it happened just like that...fast moves, sharp turns, bobbing and weaving, seeking dock space, and not hitting another vessel, while crossing wakes crossing each other! Our captain wanted so bad to make it out into the Bay then make a starboard turn up the Hudson across the bow of a Staten Island Ferry coming out his terminal but thought better of it and crossed in the wake of its stern instead. Smart move. But was a wild scene reminiscent of NY Harbor of the first half of the 20th Century...but with still fewer boats. Another great unexpected dividend of a Ridwithmehenry trip.

[blue streak 1]

Firelock76

The Hudson only freezes in the worst winters, and even then not for long.  It was one of the reasons the British wanted New York as a base of operations during both the French and Indian and Revolutionary Wars.    New York harbor had a reputation for being reliably ice-free, and it usually was.

 

You might want to study the Hudson this past super winter.

[Firelock76]

blue streak 1

Firelock76

The Hudson only freezes in the worst winters, and even then not for long.  It was one of the reasons the British wanted New York as a base of operations during both the French and Indian and Revolutionary Wars.    New York harbor had a reputation for being reliably ice-free, and it usually was.

 

You might want to study the Hudson this past super winter.

"One swallow does not a summer make."

In actual fact, the WORST recorded winter on the East Coast was the winter of 1779-1780.  THEN the Hudson froze shore to shore, and the Kill Van Kull froze right to the bottom.   Ice thicknesses of 10-plus feet weren't unusual.  However, this was the exception, a very great exception, but not the rule.

[nyc#25]

  If the tunnels are taken out of service forever that will mean the DEATH

of the Northeast Corridor.  Another nail in the coffin of the U.S.A.

[blue streak 1]

daveklepper

There are ferries operating out of Hoboken now.   I think this is rush hour service only, but to two or more points in Manhattan.   They do not operate when the Hudson is frozen with ice in the winter.  And now they operate out of one or two of the old slips, restored!

 

All this talk of ferry service please explain to us how all the trains are going to operate in and out of Hoboken ? ? ?

 

 

[henry6]

The fear is that if the Hudson doesn't have tracks linked to the National Rail network, the whole of the East will be in big trouble and not just Amtrak but also NJT, the states of NY and NJ, and the social and economic structure of the whole Mid Atlantic and New England states. As for Blue Streak's question about ferries and trains, I'm not sure what he means. Hoboken is capable of handling more trans than it does normally but that may also be more than NY Waterways, PATH, and NJT and private buses can handle under present daily operations. All of them would have to increase services in forms of equipment, schedules, and people. Not saying it can't be done, but it would take an effort which would not happen over night. HBLRT is helpful only in taking people away from Hoboken to and from other point between Bayonne and North Bergen feeding to PATH's Newark Line at Exchange Place and other bus services utilizing either the Lincoln or Holland tunnels. But many plans and adjustments would have to be made to make it work. NJT trains in and out of Hoboken can be yarded there and many can be deadheaded out to other locations...but again planning and preparation are vital. Of course I am only talking NJT because of the power source difference between the Corridor and the NJT Hoboken Div. Diesels changed out at Newark or in the Meadows at the same location as the once famous Manhattan Transfer reverse of historic operation? Could be the thing of the future!

[blue streak 1]

Henry6:  Did not ever pay much attention to the Hoboken yard situation as was never there at rush hour.  My concern is if all NEC trains had to terminate at Newark Penn or Secaucus how to handle the passengers including Amtrak passengers.  Path at Newark seemed to be operating at capacity when there before as NJT discharged a portion of each NJT train.  Does PATH even have enough extra equipment to expand service especially the 33rd street terminal ?

NJT probably does not have enough dual frequency equipment to run Newark Penn - Hoboken ?  Even so is  that route single track with a rail grade crossing of PATH ? 

Also how many operational ferry slips left at Hoboken ?  Can they take larger boats such as Staten Island ferry ?

[henry6]

NY Waterways is not your father's Oldsmobile. It is not what's left but what has been built or rebuilt. Probably about 5 slips have operating docks which can be adjusted to the boat and the tide. Boats have bow and stern different from each other so boats only go forward in one direction but are smaller, faster, and more nimble. Problems at Hoboken are the same all over NY...infrastructure is 75 to 100 or more years old; all services are operating at capacity or more during high capacity hours; infrastructure layout and operating abilities are not always in sync with today business and employee patterns; society and business keeps changing, sometimes even back to what it used to be, often only temporary; everybody knows what needs to be done but no one is going to give up his fiefdom for the fix and no one wants to pay for it. PATH probably doesn't have enough extra equipment to or maybe just enough to run full time, but train lengths are limited by platform lengths an, like all other operations, there are not enough employees and no one wants to hire and pay. The most frequent things seen through this maze are fingers pointing at others' fingers, Status quo is golden as far as dollars and cents are concerned.

[blue streak 1]

another article saying about the same thing.

 

[sandyhookken]

The NJTransit connection between the NEC and Hoboken does not cross the PATH tracks at grade. Presently, there is a one-track bridge over the PATH tracks, used by the weekday North Jersey Coast Line trains between Bay Head to Hoboken. I vaguely recall reading that this bridge was constructed with the bridge abutments sized for two tracks. I tried checking this with Google Earth, however, Google Earth seems to have problems with bridges. Several of the ones I've checked seem to have "melted", including the NJT bridge over PATH. If all NJT trains had to terminate in Hoboken, I'm guessing that all of the ALP-46 electric motors would be used on the NEC & NJCL, since they can transition between the two voltages automatically. The M&E would become all EMU service, since they cannot automatically transition between the voltages. The dual-power ALP-46DP locomotives would also provide some flexability. NJTransit also has the (retired?) ALP-44 motors rusting away in Port Morris. In a crisis, some of them could probably be resuscitated. It would be interesting to find out if NJTransit has any contingency plan to respond to a closure of the Hudson Tunnels. Based on their responses to Superstorm Sandy and the Super Bowl, it's probably just "Hope & Pray!".

[henry6]

Forgot to mention, Ken, that the Andover extension at Port Morris does not contain anything anymore...several MU car shells are scattered around the ground cut in half. Don't know where the motors are but do know the BiLevels continue trekking to Kanona for Bombardier refurbishing. All NJT MU's are pushing 40 years old and need be replaced soon anyway. SEPTA was allowed to take all the MU's able to change over in motion while NJT got the ones which must be stopped to do so. As for the new news article...it continues the concept of the MTA 7 Subway burrowing into NJ. This would be a bureaucratic nightmare easily avoided by giving the trans Hudson rapid transit project to the Port of Authority's PATH system which already has all the government and paper clearances and which would shave 5 to 10 years and probably billions of dollars off the project. Come on, lets get real. But any rapid transit tunnels have nothing to do with the need of standard heavy rail tunnels for Amtrak and NJT. Rapid transit may relieve some traffic but not solve the need for regional, inter and intra regional rail, and interstate travel. Tunnels must be dug to accommodate the 21st Century at least. If we could only stop having to dig through all the political BS!

[John WR]

wanswheel

Christie may need to be President.  Otherwise, cancellation of the ARC tunnel could be what history will remember him for, especially if the PRR tunnel fails disastrously after a point in time the ARC tunnel would’ve been completed and in service.

Wanswheel,   

You hit the nail on the head.  The ARC tunnels had been planned for many years and their was a broad consensus that they were needed from both parties.  The money was there to do it:  Costs would be shared by the Federal Government, the Port Authority and the State of New Jersey.   And New Jersey's share would be paid by toll increases.  

One man, Governor Chris Christie, stopped the effort in its tracks.   Maybe his luck will hold and there will be no disaster.   Let's hope so.   

[henry6]

But there are as many pro rail, pro NJT, pro Amtrak who supported Christies' ARC action because of its shortcomings and inadequateness. I was never hot on ARC but accepted it as all we were going to get. I was kind of relieved when Christie did it but the fear that prevails is that nothing is being done but complaints, finger pointing, and sitting on butts instead of working on a plan.

[daveklepper]

So let the MTA sell the 14th Street Canarsie line to PATH and extend it Saucaucus, and then have trhough running with NJT and a third-rail electrification to High Bridge.

B Division cars can be built to FRA requirements and mix with the National Railroad system,  

[blue streak 1]

henry6

But there are as many pro rail, pro NJT, pro Amtrak who supported Christies' ARC action because of its shortcomings and inadequateness.

Wish this poster had this hindsight.  If Christie had called for a complete re-evaluation of the project that would have preserved at least some funding to allow for a sooner construction maybe these warning would not have been necessary ? 

 The Gateway tunnel project has a large number of pictures.  Please check the humongous crane that is being used.

 

http://ny.curbed.com/archives/2014/07/22/55_photos_inside_the_hudson_yards_construction_site.php

[John WR]

henry6

But there are as many pro rail, pro NJT, pro Amtrak who supported Christies' ARC action because of its shortcomings and inadequateness.

Henry,   

You are correct in your observation.   However, there was also a lot of wrongheaded opposition.   Ideally the ARC tunnels would have offered a direct connection to Grand Central Terminal.   That, of course, was an anathema to the Pennsylvania and New York Central Railroads.   But the public needed and still needs that connection.   It would be very helpful for Amtrak trains.   

However, New Jersey Transit and New Jersey commuters do not need it.   But they badly need the new tunnels.   I think that here half a loaf would be much better than none which is what we wound up with.    

John

[henry6]

No, WR, it was a two track stub station south of NYP; no Amtrak, no trough running, no way out but back to NJ. Yes, new tunnels have to be dug but with run through tracks in conjunction with Amtrak and LIRR. Ironically, though, one of the cries was that NJ commuters had to get to the east side of Manhattan but now major commercial and business development has occurred on the west side so the east side reach is not as important now.