Boardman warns NJ commuters

[blue streak 1]

The following is about the Port Authority bus terminal.  One has to wonder if even all these improvements if PA bus will again be overloaded.  The 2 additional tunnels certainly would postpone any worse bus terminal if NJT would modify many bus line to get rail ? 

 

http://www.capitalnewyork.com/article/city-hall/2014/07/8549619/wheres-big-fix-port-authority-terminal

 

 

[BaltACD]

Breakdowns (or accidents) afflict all forms of transportation that have narrowly construed routes.  Accidents and construction block interstates - and traffic backs up.  Airports have incidents - and traffic backs up.  Waterways have channel or port issues - and traffic backs up.  Pipelines have their issues (that we don't hear of until there is a leak) - and traffic backs up.  Railroads have incidents - and traffic backs up.

Failure to take corrective actions to known impediments to sustained successful operations is dancing with the devil - and the consequences of failure can be catastrophic.

[wanswheel]

Joe Boardman is a Vietnam vet, USAF.

"I rode my first train I really remember going into the service, from Rome to Syracuse," Boardman said of his first rail experience at age 17. "Four years later, when I came back, they were bankrupt."

http://krtnradio.com/2014/07/12/amtrak-ceo-visits-raton/

[henry6]

Amtrak breaks down in the tunnels or across the Meadows as often as NJT...LIRR can foul up everything, too, in the E. River tunnels so neither NJT nor Amtrak can get to or from Sunnyside Yard... I repeat this about Boardman: he is probably the most politically savvy president Amtrak has ever had because he came up through the ranks of commissioner of "transportation" or "buses" or whatever from municipal through state (NY) to FRA before coming to Amtrak. He probably knows how to deal with both sides of the aisle better than anyone so far. And he does know about moving people from here to there and back, know how to shuffle papers, etc, as good as any political appointee ever. He many not always make the best choices per Amtrak and train, nor, evidently, be the perfect boss. But his ability to wiggle through politics and political BS is great.

[BaltACD]

Doo, Doo or get off the pot - Anon

[John WR]

schlimm

It seems that  Boardman is wise to get more support from the public than just Amtrak users.

Schlimm,  

Joe Boardman is sure trying to build support wherever he can.  As the poet said,

"Say not the struggle naught availeth

 The Labor and the wounds are vain

 The enemy faints not nor faileth

 And as things have been things remain."

Have a good summer.

John

[John WR]

Henry,  

When all is said and done we have to accept that there will be no ARC tunnels.   It looks like Amtrak will build tunnels eventually but that will take some time.   In the meantime, the problems with the existing tunnels have been pointed out.   

Have a good summer.   

John

[blue streak 1]

Another reason for more tunnels.  NJT breaks down at throat of Penn station blocking one tunnel.

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2014/07/29/nj-transit-train-breaks-down-outside-new-york-city/

 

 

[henry6]

But it is not just those who ride the trains that are important to the future, it is all who benefit from the economy supported by it all.

[schlimm]

Great point.   It seems that  Boardman is wise to get more support from the public than just Amtrak users.  Waking up NJ commuters increases the base and the possibility that action will be taken, hopefully soon.

[henry6]

BaltACD

Isn't Boardman's point that even with all the weekend band aids the Hudson Tunnels will only last another 20 years and REAL plans need to be made NOW to replace them?

Building new tunnels is not a one or two year construction project, especially not in the bedrock of the New York area.  After all the new Water Tunnel for New York has been under construction for 50 years.

All that and thensome...politicians have to stop playing politics and start doing something before it's too late.

[BaltACD]

Isn't Boardman's point that even with all the weekend band aids the Hudson Tunnels will only last another 20 years and REAL plans need to be made NOW to replace them?

Building new tunnels is not a one or two year construction project, especially not in the bedrock of the New York area.  After all the new Water Tunnel for New York has been under construction for 50 years.

[henry6]

Several years in fact.

[blue streak 1]

henry6

One bore of the tunnels is closed each weekend for continuous repair and maintenance projects.

Henry hasn't this been happening for some time ?  Believe only Thanksgiving, Christmas, Super Bowl, & Easter weekends one tunnel not closed ?

[henry6]

One bore of the tunnels is closed each weekend for continuous repair and maintenance projects. Amtrak, along with NJT traffic to and from Dover, Trenton, Rahway, South Amboy, and Long Branch are fleeted in and out on single track between Bergen and NYP Friday nights to Monday morning.

[blue streak 1]

Retired Trainman

The tunnels are 104 years old, they can barely handle the traffic load now, if one failed then they had better have a lot of buses and or ferry boats lined up, the NY bridges and auto/ truck tunnels would not be able to handle the traffic. One has to wonder if NY city or the states of NJ and NY even have a plan in place for such a disaster If both failed then NY and NJ would see an economic nightmare..

 

Correct.  Boardman's statement is about the probability of when not if.  Of course the new tunnels will allow major rehab of the old tunnels hopefully one at a time.  The surveys about the condition of the tunnels is not public knowledge.  How can the public even judge when it is prudent to close one tunnel for major rehab ?  Rehab needs to begin before the probability of failure of one tunnel becomes very high ?  

 

 

[henry6]

Retired Trainman

The tunnels are 104 years old, they can barely handle the traffic load now, if one failed then they had better have a lot of buses and or ferry boats lined up, the NY bridges and auto/ truck tunnels would not be able to handle the traffic. One has to wonder if NY city or the states of NJ and NY even have a plan in place for such a disaster If both failed then NY and NJ would see an economic nightmare..

Going back over this thread, this is what the thread is all about. And the answers are, NO. There are some minor short term plans but nothing long term. There has to be a call to action on the part of partisan and parochial politicians which just isn't happening. The deception for many is the new Penn Sta project west of the current NYP: it is a station project and not a new tunnel project.

[henry6]

I always thought the ARC plan was a two track station south of present NYP with no connections to anything thus useless to Amtrak and not a real solution. I am surprised Christie shut it down because it would have given NJ control of ARC. But that would also give NJ and NJT a bad position in the game overall, would have made more enemies than friends. As I said, too, part of the reasoning 5 and 10 years ago was to get NJ'ians to Manhattan's East Side. But today, business has swung west of 6th Ave and it is not as important to reach the East Side as it was. A lot of people work the financial district in lower Manhattan but a lot more people work elsewhere in the City.

[John WR]

Henry,

Am I missing something?  I have always understood that the ARC tunnels, while two tracks, would end at a station with more than two tracks although I don't know the exact number.   

Certainly you are correct about Amtrak and the Long Island Railroad and I don't think I suggested anything any different.   

As far as getting to the east side is concerned, ideally that would be possible.   But often in this world we must accept less than the ideal solution.   I understand most people work in lower Manhattan in the financial district.   That is and would continue to be an additional subway ride.   

I appreciate your passionate opinion.   But when ARC to cancelled there were some pretty passionate opinions on the other side too.   

John

[Retired Trainman]

The tunnels are 104 years old, they can barely handle the traffic load now, if one failed then they had better have a lot of buses and or ferry boats lined up, the NY bridges and auto/ truck tunnels would not be able to handle the traffic. One has to wonder if NY city or the states of NJ and NY even have a plan in place for such a disaster If both failed then NY and NJ would see an economic nightmare..

[henry6]

No, WR, it was a two track stub station south of NYP; no Amtrak, no trough running, no way out but back to NJ. Yes, new tunnels have to be dug but with run through tracks in conjunction with Amtrak and LIRR. Ironically, though, one of the cries was that NJ commuters had to get to the east side of Manhattan but now major commercial and business development has occurred on the west side so the east side reach is not as important now.

[John WR]

henry6

But there are as many pro rail, pro NJT, pro Amtrak who supported Christies' ARC action because of its shortcomings and inadequateness.

Henry,   

You are correct in your observation.   However, there was also a lot of wrongheaded opposition.   Ideally the ARC tunnels would have offered a direct connection to Grand Central Terminal.   That, of course, was an anathema to the Pennsylvania and New York Central Railroads.   But the public needed and still needs that connection.   It would be very helpful for Amtrak trains.   

However, New Jersey Transit and New Jersey commuters do not need it.   But they badly need the new tunnels.   I think that here half a loaf would be much better than none which is what we wound up with.    

John

[blue streak 1]

henry6

But there are as many pro rail, pro NJT, pro Amtrak who supported Christies' ARC action because of its shortcomings and inadequateness.

Wish this poster had this hindsight.  If Christie had called for a complete re-evaluation of the project that would have preserved at least some funding to allow for a sooner construction maybe these warning would not have been necessary ? 

 The Gateway tunnel project has a large number of pictures.  Please check the humongous crane that is being used.

 

http://ny.curbed.com/archives/2014/07/22/55_photos_inside_the_hudson_yards_construction_site.php

[daveklepper]

So let the MTA sell the 14th Street Canarsie line to PATH and extend it Saucaucus, and then have trhough running with NJT and a third-rail electrification to High Bridge.

B Division cars can be built to FRA requirements and mix with the National Railroad system,  

[henry6]

But there are as many pro rail, pro NJT, pro Amtrak who supported Christies' ARC action because of its shortcomings and inadequateness. I was never hot on ARC but accepted it as all we were going to get. I was kind of relieved when Christie did it but the fear that prevails is that nothing is being done but complaints, finger pointing, and sitting on butts instead of working on a plan.

[John WR]

wanswheel

Christie may need to be President.  Otherwise, cancellation of the ARC tunnel could be what history will remember him for, especially if the PRR tunnel fails disastrously after a point in time the ARC tunnel would’ve been completed and in service.

Wanswheel,   

You hit the nail on the head.  The ARC tunnels had been planned for many years and their was a broad consensus that they were needed from both parties.  The money was there to do it:  Costs would be shared by the Federal Government, the Port Authority and the State of New Jersey.   And New Jersey's share would be paid by toll increases.  

One man, Governor Chris Christie, stopped the effort in its tracks.   Maybe his luck will hold and there will be no disaster.   Let's hope so.   

[henry6]

Forgot to mention, Ken, that the Andover extension at Port Morris does not contain anything anymore...several MU car shells are scattered around the ground cut in half. Don't know where the motors are but do know the BiLevels continue trekking to Kanona for Bombardier refurbishing. All NJT MU's are pushing 40 years old and need be replaced soon anyway. SEPTA was allowed to take all the MU's able to change over in motion while NJT got the ones which must be stopped to do so. As for the new news article...it continues the concept of the MTA 7 Subway burrowing into NJ. This would be a bureaucratic nightmare easily avoided by giving the trans Hudson rapid transit project to the Port of Authority's PATH system which already has all the government and paper clearances and which would shave 5 to 10 years and probably billions of dollars off the project. Come on, lets get real. But any rapid transit tunnels have nothing to do with the need of standard heavy rail tunnels for Amtrak and NJT. Rapid transit may relieve some traffic but not solve the need for regional, inter and intra regional rail, and interstate travel. Tunnels must be dug to accommodate the 21st Century at least. If we could only stop having to dig through all the political BS!

[sandyhookken]

The NJTransit connection between the NEC and Hoboken does not cross the PATH tracks at grade. Presently, there is a one-track bridge over the PATH tracks, used by the weekday North Jersey Coast Line trains between Bay Head to Hoboken. I vaguely recall reading that this bridge was constructed with the bridge abutments sized for two tracks. I tried checking this with Google Earth, however, Google Earth seems to have problems with bridges. Several of the ones I've checked seem to have "melted", including the NJT bridge over PATH. If all NJT trains had to terminate in Hoboken, I'm guessing that all of the ALP-46 electric motors would be used on the NEC & NJCL, since they can transition between the two voltages automatically. The M&E would become all EMU service, since they cannot automatically transition between the voltages. The dual-power ALP-46DP locomotives would also provide some flexability. NJTransit also has the (retired?) ALP-44 motors rusting away in Port Morris. In a crisis, some of them could probably be resuscitated. It would be interesting to find out if NJTransit has any contingency plan to respond to a closure of the Hudson Tunnels. Based on their responses to Superstorm Sandy and the Super Bowl, it's probably just "Hope & Pray!".

[blue streak 1]

another article saying about the same thing.