But the majority of the stations are low level...so the Bi's end up with only two doors open per car....
But the majority of mileage in on hills with stations averaging about a mile apart...not enough time to get up to an efficient speed for schedules and fuel consumption starting and stopping
But if you look at the last week and a half before the Super Bowl when the Bi Levels were pulled from regular service for SB prep and trains used the Comet cars, there were fewer delays and fewer equipment failures.
But NJT stations on the Hoboken Div, in addition to the grades and curves, also have 8 not 10 car trains and even then they have to herd passengers to specific cars for specific unloading.
But beause crews don't have to walk each car twice, then work more efficiently (quicker, less strain, less fatigue) they actually can collect all tickets and be at the doors at stations more often and thus help both NJT with revenues and passengers with service.
I am telling you that Chicago suburbs are not NJT's Morristown lines. BiLevels do not serve the public nor NJT nor its employees and should be sold or given away substituting dual source electric MU's. An MU train goes from Hoboken to Dover faster than either a diesel or electric motor push pull. Ride one sometime and feel and see the difference....and ask the engineer what he thinks about performance...he'll tell you the same thing many of them have said: MUs do the job better and faster.
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henry6We are not talking Superliners and Viewliners, we are not talking Chicago commuter cars....these two are quite different and inefficient. in so many ways, especially the NJT cars. They may have a place in service somewhere but not on the hills, the close station stops, and low platforms of North Jersey.
The Bombardier multi-level cars used by NJT have a capacity of 127 cab car to 142 trailer cars using more spacious 2-2 seating. There are 2 large side doors at intermediate levels, and 2 end doors, except at the cab position on cab cars. The end doors of NJ Transit coaches have step well traps, allowing these doors to be used for both high and low-platform loading. Weight is not clear, maybe 110,000 pounds, maybe more. Comet V's have a capacity of 109-117 in a tighter 3-2 seating configuration. 6 doors (2 hi-level and 4 regular) and weigh 100,000 pounds.
A 10 car single-level train could pack in 1162, while the multi-level handles 1405 in greater comfort with more space for standees. You would need more trains(or longer trains) to handle the passenger load and the headway was already down to 10 minutes. The single-car trains can board and disembark more quickly.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
it was only a high school quality defense anyway. the hurry too leave was not the railroads fault.
CSSHEGEWISCH Schlimm has a valid point. Bi-levels, regardless of their design, can increase capacity appreciably for a given train length. As an example, South Shore's single-level cars can seat 90 people while their gallery bi-levels seat about 120. Henry holds that providing a real service is what matters, even NJT's tight-clearance bi-levels, with their increased capacity, can go a long way in moving a lot of people when needed.
Schlimm has a valid point. Bi-levels, regardless of their design, can increase capacity appreciably for a given train length. As an example, South Shore's single-level cars can seat 90 people while their gallery bi-levels seat about 120. Henry holds that providing a real service is what matters, even NJT's tight-clearance bi-levels, with their increased capacity, can go a long way in moving a lot of people when needed.
Sorry but I have to disagree because they can show a false promise in efficiencies. NJT and LIRR Bi Levels are good examples. The actual increase in capacity of each car is not that many more than a single level car so that the cost per car to build and purchase, the cost per car for fuel consumption to carry the extra weight, the cost per car needed for proper ticket collecting (I've ridden these cars and not have a ticket or fare collected because no one came to get it!) because trainmen have to climb up or down to access passengers then climb down or up to return through car (end foyers are platform level but trainman has choice of climbing or climbing down to access passenger levels), the lost time due to slower acceleration and longer deceleration in the applied service, the extended station dwells because low level platforms allow for only two doors per car to be used, the taxing of the physical abilities of train people to be able to manipulate the two level changes per car, the 8-10 foot foyer (for lack of a better term) space at each end of the car which does not accommodate seating the same as the upper and lower levels can be deemed wasted space (ie, money and fuel consumption for dead weight). We are not talking Superliners and Viewliners, we are not talking Chicago commuter cars....these two are quite different and inefficient. in so many ways, especially the NJT cars. They may have a place in service somewhere but not on the hills, the close station stops, and low platforms of North Jersey.
KCSfan I think Schlimm may also have been thinking of galleries when he took exception to your comments.
I was thinking of non-gallery cars as well which I have ridden in Toronto. SoCal and Germany. Henry's main objection seems to be slow loading and difficulty climbing stairs. Not a problem in those other places. Also, the capacity is so much greater for bi-levels. It would have required 50% more cars (and trains) which would possibly have turned two hour waits to three or more.
But they didn't do it that quickly....especially when it came time to take them home....they needed buses to move the people...because the trains couldn't do it fast enough, efficiently enough. NFL underestimated the number who would be using train service....opened the gates at 2PM so trains didn't deliver first riders until then instead of starting much, much earlier....first train out of Sec. Jct. scheduled at 1:41PM based on what NFL told them to do. Somebody at NJT should have known better and told the NFL to they'd start delivering people at 1 or 1:30P. NFL math was bad. BiLevels could not load and unload quickly. .held things up. I don't know if NJT held to the scheduled or if they they just loaded til the sardines squealed and the set the train free abandoning schedules...if they did, then good for them. Perhaps NJT should have bye passed Sec. Jct. and just used PATH and Hoboken to Sports Complex for more of the service. But the number who showed up was much more than NJT was told to prepare for.
John WR The fact of the matter is that NJT moved about 33,000 people in about 2 hours. That seems to me not to be a total failure.
The fact of the matter is that NJT moved about 33,000 people in about 2 hours. That seems to me not to be a total failure.
To the I want it NOW generation, 2 hours is a eternity.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
It is relative about the Meadowlands debacle of last Sunday simply because the reports in the news claim NJT said so.
Henry,
Your arguments against bi levels outside of the NEC is well thought out and articulate. However, I'm not sure it relates to the use of bi levels on the Meadowlands line. I suspect NJT used bi levels because these are the biggest cars they have and can hold more passengers than single level cars. I've never been to the Meadowlands but I suspect that station, which is new, has high platforms just as Secaucus does so the bi level cars have 4 doors on each car. They are commuter rail cars and not subway cars so loading and unloading will be slower than with subway cars. But it seems to me they were more suited for the 33,000 people NJT carried away from the Superbowl than single level cars would have been. The Meadowllands line is 7 miles long so the weight of the cars related to acceleration and deceleration seems not too important.
KCSfan henry6 schlimm henry6 They proved that the BiLevels are not rapid transit with the slow loading and unloading, something I have ranted about for years How odd that you continue with this unfounded bias. I would ask why is it that suburban rails in many/most areas of the US (SEPTA is apparently gong to buy bi-levels.) and Canada switched to bi-levels starting ~60 years ago in order to increase capacity and speed up boarding? Same story in many foreign countries where vertical clearance permitted. But I guess you know better than their collective wisdom over many years?. Their collective wisdom doesn't impress me, if indeed they have any wisdom at all. The first problem stated Monday morning in news reports was that the Bi Level cars took too long to load and unload. It is the same observation I made even before they were put into service. Schedule time have been lengthened because of the dwell times but still schedules are often difficult to maintain. To me the fact that these cars were pulled from service over the past several weeks for Super Bowl service preparation and delays and breakdowns decreased during that period supports my feelings. It is not that Bi's are bad, but they are just bad for the lines they operate on. They are heavy and take a lot of time to get started and a lot to slow to a stop. On the lines they operate there are many curves, grades, and stations as close as a mile or less. I can't speak to the NJT situation but AFAIK none of these supposed drawbacks of bi-level cars are true of their operation on the METRA lines in Chicagoland. Mark
henry6 schlimm henry6 They proved that the BiLevels are not rapid transit with the slow loading and unloading, something I have ranted about for years How odd that you continue with this unfounded bias. I would ask why is it that suburban rails in many/most areas of the US (SEPTA is apparently gong to buy bi-levels.) and Canada switched to bi-levels starting ~60 years ago in order to increase capacity and speed up boarding? Same story in many foreign countries where vertical clearance permitted. But I guess you know better than their collective wisdom over many years?. Their collective wisdom doesn't impress me, if indeed they have any wisdom at all. The first problem stated Monday morning in news reports was that the Bi Level cars took too long to load and unload. It is the same observation I made even before they were put into service. Schedule time have been lengthened because of the dwell times but still schedules are often difficult to maintain. To me the fact that these cars were pulled from service over the past several weeks for Super Bowl service preparation and delays and breakdowns decreased during that period supports my feelings. It is not that Bi's are bad, but they are just bad for the lines they operate on. They are heavy and take a lot of time to get started and a lot to slow to a stop. On the lines they operate there are many curves, grades, and stations as close as a mile or less.
schlimm henry6 They proved that the BiLevels are not rapid transit with the slow loading and unloading, something I have ranted about for years How odd that you continue with this unfounded bias. I would ask why is it that suburban rails in many/most areas of the US (SEPTA is apparently gong to buy bi-levels.) and Canada switched to bi-levels starting ~60 years ago in order to increase capacity and speed up boarding? Same story in many foreign countries where vertical clearance permitted. But I guess you know better than their collective wisdom over many years?.
henry6 They proved that the BiLevels are not rapid transit with the slow loading and unloading, something I have ranted about for years
How odd that you continue with this unfounded bias. I would ask why is it that suburban rails in many/most areas of the US (SEPTA is apparently gong to buy bi-levels.) and Canada switched to bi-levels starting ~60 years ago in order to increase capacity and speed up boarding? Same story in many foreign countries where vertical clearance permitted. But I guess you know better than their collective wisdom over many years?.
Their collective wisdom doesn't impress me, if indeed they have any wisdom at all. The first problem stated Monday morning in news reports was that the Bi Level cars took too long to load and unload. It is the same observation I made even before they were put into service. Schedule time have been lengthened because of the dwell times but still schedules are often difficult to maintain. To me the fact that these cars were pulled from service over the past several weeks for Super Bowl service preparation and delays and breakdowns decreased during that period supports my feelings. It is not that Bi's are bad, but they are just bad for the lines they operate on. They are heavy and take a lot of time to get started and a lot to slow to a stop. On the lines they operate there are many curves, grades, and stations as close as a mile or less.
I can't speak to the NJT situation but AFAIK none of these supposed drawbacks of bi-level cars are true of their operation on the METRA lines in Chicagoland.
Mark
I need to amend my above comment. I was actually thinking of gallery cars. I don't think METRA runs any bi-levels and I have little knowledge of them so I'll take your word for their shortcomings Henry. I think Schlimm may also have been thinking of galleries when he took exception to your comments.
CSSHEGEWISCH This isn't an issue on gallery bi-levels, as the conductor or trainman can check tickets and collect fares on both levels from the main aisle only.
This isn't an issue on gallery bi-levels, as the conductor or trainman can check tickets and collect fares on both levels from the main aisle only.
But it is a problem on both NJT and LIRR Bi Levels today...Poor choice of cars from taking care of crew safety, performance, and moral. Only the ends of the cars have single aisle...crew has to walk about four or five steps to get to upper level from there or to lower levels....that's 10 steps up and 10 steps down on each car...The ends of the cars...vestibules (doors) , cabs (no doors), foyers, foyer doors...belie the idea of carrying significantly more people than single level cars (even those with center doors for high platform stations). The cars look nice, seem to ride nice, but have a lot to be desired for operating efficiencies in too many places (short distances between stations, long dwell times at low platform stations--more of them than high levels, and crew's having to climb).
Another unspoken problem with these cars concerns the crews. They have to walk down for the lower level and up for the higher level, two sets of stairways, twice per car. No matter how good your health and fitness, this wears on one's legs and knees. If one person has two or three cars under his charge, that means walking up and down six times between each station. Tiring and damaging on the crew. Or are we not supposed to care about them?
The Indian's should have been contacted for their enhanced loading expertise
It is a three track stub with one platform serving 2 tracks and one platform serving 1 track; a two track "main line" . Probably should have been a 2 or 3 track, 2 or 3 platform loop instead.. I'm not sure if they are high platforms or low...but if low, the limits doors to end of car doors only which would mean one on each end. Now there's a time waster!
Question -
Was the 'station' at the stadium single track and one train had to complete it's passenger work (loading or unloading) and depart the station track before another train could occupy the station track to perform it's passenger work?
If so, that is a recepie for disaster from the get go!
Their collective wisdom doesn't impress me, if indeed they have any wisdom at all. The first problem stated Monday morning in news reports was that the Bi Level cars took too long to load and unload. It is the same observation I made even before they were put into service. Schedule time have been lengthened because of the dwell times but still schedules are often difficult to maintain. To me the fact that these cars were pulled from service over the past several weeks for Super Bowl service preparation and delays and breakdowns decreased during that period supports my feelings. It is not that Bi's are bad, but they are just bad for the lines they operate on. They are heavy and take a lot of time to get started and a lot to slow to a stop. On the lines they operate there are many curves, grades, and stations as close as a mile or less. On the Corridor with often five or more miles on virtual flat land and broad high speed curves, they probably are ok. But on the former DL&W, Erie, and even CNJ, these cars bring the service down. Hell, the LIRR had Bi Levels back in the 40s and 50s which worked very well....perhaps as much that they were also electric MU's and not push pulls. In effect they have lengthened schedules, caused congestion, and have not been effective. Other locations they may work better, but here I didn't think they would and their performance has proven right and the comments about them in the Super Bowl trains underscores that. Yes, I've ridden those lines for almost 70 years and have experienced the operations and comparison of systems and other railroads. I may not be an engineer but have been around those rail lines, known enough railroaders, and experienced enough to believe I can make those statements and take this stance with confidence.
The NFL told NJT to expect 18,000 riders and that the stadium gates opened at 2PM. NTJ prepared for 18,000 (in spite of my feelings about Christie, I would like to think he didn't tell NJT to expect only 10 to 12 thousand, I seriously doubt he did.) But the NFL math falls short of reality as does the operations of NJT. NJT should have started running trains sometime between noon and 12:30 and let the NFL handle the crowd at the gate. And being the first "transit Super Bowl" NJT should have told the NFL how it should be done. But the didn't because they don't know how themselves. They proved that the BiLevels are not rapid transit with the slow loading and unloading, something I have ranted about for years. And note, too, that during the week and a half to two weeks the cars were pulled from regular service there were fewer late trains and fewer mechanical problems. I wonder, too, if the stub end terminal at the sports complex was a problem...that NJT should have built a loop or loops instead. Christie has already cleaned house, so to speak, moving Weinstein to the Delaware Toll Bridge Authority and bringing in the lady from the Turnpike Authority to run the trains...she has reportedly supported Christie's idea of privatizing the Turnpike! Hmmm.... I don't think anything is going to change at NJT for the good in the very near future. Christie's hunger for power and micro managing hand as been so apparent since before Sandy and I think will continue more so now. NJT has made a lot of bad mistakes in operations and a very uninformed public relations and customer program. I used to admire them and their first class operation, but can no longer.
An article and an editorial from the Bergen Record on this latest NJ Transit incident.
http://www.northjersey.com/news/Angry_riders_say_NJ_Transit_and_NFL_fumbled_Super_Bowl_plans.html?page=all
http://www.northjersey.com/news/opinions/243445191_The_Record__Secaucus_wasn_t_super.html
This may give Gov. Christie opportunity to do some management cleaning at NJT without having to admit that he was wrong about Transit's Sandy response.
I read that when the trains were not able to handle the crowds they brought in 50 buses to try and get people out. The last passengers were still on the platform after midnight. What a fiasco. They probably won't do that again but politicians never seem to learn lessons.
There were also a lot of chartered buses that handled ticketholders for this event. Let's be realistic, though, if 35,000 passengers descended on any location within a 20-minute span, delays would occur.
Most of the estimates I've seen for passengers handled by NJ Transit are in the 35,000 range. However, the stadium seating capacity for a normal game is 82,500. I thought rubber tired transportation was not allowed -- am I wrong about that and only private autos were excluded?
Regardless, apparently rail handled less than half of the crowd.
daveklepper My understanding is that NJT handled about 30,000 fans for the Superbowl, but a close friend who works for NYCTA and has good connections with NJT says Christie'soffice told NJT to expect between 12,000 and 16,000. But should not ticket sales have aleerted them to change their plans?
My understanding is that NJT handled about 30,000 fans for the Superbowl, but a close friend who works for NYCTA and has good connections with NJT says Christie'soffice told NJT to expect between 12,000 and 16,000. But should not ticket sales have aleerted them to change their plans?
Ticket sales for a SB are not a barometer - you expect it to be sold out. PERIOD! The question for transportation planners is - where are the people coming from and how will they get there and back?
That's hard to believe, Dave, in spite of Christie and his record. NFL said they expected 18,000 by train and 30,000 showed up. But to me that's suspicious too, especially in light of the restrictions on travel into and out of the Stadium. They all had to know there would be way more than 18,000 train riders. If NFL didn't do the right math, nobody at NJT could do it either..
Like Henry6, this surprises me, too. My wife and I shot lots of video with an iPad on the Coast Starlight about two years ago. Mainly we shot passing scenery, but swung the pad around a few times to shoot out the other side, catching fellow passengers and the lounge car interior in the process. The crew plainly saw us but said nothing. This might vary by crew. I'd certainly take Henry's hint and not intentionally shoot crew.
Look at this link first...:
http://www.thelirrtoday.com/2014/02/a-rough-night-for-njtransit.html?utm_source=\ feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+TheLongIslandRailRoadToday+%28T\ he+Long+Island+Rail+Road+Today%29 >
>
WOW! What A Surprise! NOT!!!! Multi Level cars board and unboard s l o w l y. Anybody who didn't know that, raise your hand...now wave those hands because it's getting hot for NJT's inept management. After the slow movement of the Bi Levels is the "schedule". I remember when the Newark City Subway had its last day of the PCC cars and they scheduled the goodby afternoon only to find the crowd so big and enthusiastic all they did was fill a car and let it go throwing the schedule away. Lesson learned? NOT. So here they scheduled trains to go to the stadium beginning at 1:41PM then about every ten minutes after that. They probabley should have started well before noon, filled a train and turned it loose until the end of the first quarter. Then they should have begun running a shuttle every 10 to 15 minutes until the trains started to fill before the schedule; then they should have just filled the trains and turned them loose. Sec. Jct was the focus of the operation. But it probably should have been Hoboken...at least for every other train. If the NFL and Homeland Security wanted everybody screened, they should have done it at the gates of Met Life and not burden NJT with the task. And turnstiles at Sec Jct. should have been turned off so that it would not become another point for bottlenecks. Of course there were other options. The Pascack Valley Line and stations could have been used; so could Morristown Lines and stations and Corridor stations using the Meadows connections and the west leg of the wye at West End. Even if they didn't use the PV as a source of traffic, they could have use the line to store trains after dumping crowds off at the Meadowlands Sport Station. I just don't think Pre Weinstein, pre Christie NJT would have had such problems as are being reported this morning. ---
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