NorthWest Schlimm, I'm not sure who your post is directed to. I was merely trying to clarify that Sound Transit is not the only operator of buses in Seattle, indeed they are the minority in the area. They are the intercounty operator. The news release indicates that the neighboring transit agencies lent buses and crews, and coordinated everything well. There were additional Sounder Trains, so BNSF had a role also. Many private bus corporations also operated buses to the event. Kudos to all involved.
Schlimm, I'm not sure who your post is directed to.
I was merely trying to clarify that Sound Transit is not the only operator of buses in Seattle, indeed they are the minority in the area. They are the intercounty operator.
The news release indicates that the neighboring transit agencies lent buses and crews, and coordinated everything well. There were additional Sounder Trains, so BNSF had a role also. Many private bus corporations also operated buses to the event. Kudos to all involved.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
My point was the same as bluestreak's, which is that Seattle moved 700,000 without rapid transit and a much smaller public transportation group then NJT, and 200,000 were moved on rail I guess I do not understand what your point is.
N JT rail is in charge of commuter rail and nothing do not operate buses or light rail; each is a different division. But, commuter rail is not rapid transit. NJT, NFL, and the politicians don't seem to understand. In rapid transit you usually run electric trains on short headways with high platform stations and cars with at least two double doors on each side, and often run on the marker lights of the train ahead during peak periods. Commuter operations are trains operating by a completely different set of rules and philosophies. Superimposing a rapid transit need onto a commuter railroad is close to impossible to do. NJT didn't come close, couldn't come close, because of the physical characteristics of the railroad and equipment and operating rules.
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
schlimmSound Transit is commuter rail, light rail and buses for King County.
Sort of. Sound Transit operates the trains and light rail, as well as some of the long distance busses. It is sort of the regional carrier (owned by several counties) that takes people between counties, which operate their own busses. King County Metro provides most of the bus service in downtown Seattle.
henry6 Therein lies the nut....there is a difference between commuter rail and rapid transit and the people who know the difference.
Therein lies the nut....there is a difference between commuter rail and rapid transit and the people who know the difference.
Sound Transit is commuter rail, light rail and buses for King County. It is much smaller than NJT, but the concept is the same.
It will be interesting to see if this results in anything positive, or just more "smoke and mirrors".
http://www.northjersey.com/news/NJ_transportation_chief_orders_probe_into_NJ_Transit_Super_Bowl_logjam.html
Yet Seattle was able to handle over 700,000 persons to downtown celebrating the Sea Hawks win. If the 100,000 to the game that is 7 times the number of game attendees. If 30,000 traveled on NJT then that is 20 times what NJT carried. It certainly appears that Sound transit worked well. Read the following link -----
http://www.soundtransit.org/About-Sound-Transit/News-and-events/News-releases/Transportation-teamwork-for-Seahawks-parade-02062014
200,000 passengers on Sound which is a much smaller system than NJT
The station diagram is easy. Drawing from left to right. Three tracks stub ending with a platform between track three and two and another platform on the outside of track 1 over on the right. Track three has crossover to 2 to 1 at mp 1.8-1.9 and track 1 a crossover to tr 2 and one back to itself after that; track 3 connects to tr 2 at about mp 1.7 at MP .07 crossover track 2 to 1 followed by crossover 1 to 2. At .05 a connecting track swings off tr 2 to the right to what is called Plank connecting track but that is not defined . At MP 0 is the interlocking with the PV line with track two to PV 1 and crossover to PV 2 and Tr 1 to PV 1 and to PV 2 on another crossover . The bumper block at Sport Stadium is MP2.0.
picked up ma load of government security :"SAFES": ie secured file cabinets on a 24' ford 750 rollback we had at a lock and safe company in WASH D. C. that was in Newark N.J. in 1984. it snowed and them drivers went dumber than dirt. one trip cured me as this place looked like something from daunteis inferno with white snow that was either grey or brown instantly. I asked the dock forman why any one lived their. he said he owed the mob money and soon as they were paid he was outa there. I never returned again for the second load. told my boss u can go get um.
Blue Streak, if you're looking for a track diagram check the Paul Mulshine column I've referenced, then click on "like this" , it's in blue lettering, then scroll down to "regional transit diagram", although if you want to check out the NJT commercial with the cute girl and the football first that's OK, I did.
Also, click on "read their own website" also highlighted in blue.
There are some track and transit maps there but they're done in the abstract. Better than nothing.
I'll say this much, Mr. Mulshine did his homework.
6 & 7: Three tracks into a stub from a two track main. I cannot make copies of the diagrams I have but in the short distance both main tracks feed the station tracks and enter the Pascack Valley main line. Speed limit and distances mean you can actually stack your trains at any interval you want or can afford.
8: No, two tracks west and two tracks east at SJ can be used to load and unload Sport Complex service. Because of the short distances, the more trains you have, the more congested and confused you get.
The problems come from lack of properly planning the exercise, not having or using the right numbers of people needed to operate, nor having or using the right numbers of people to plan on using the system, the problem of using BiLevel cars which can carry lots of people but takes long amounts of time to load and unload (see 8 above...short distance, time takes time and takes away from time when distances are short and the number of trains on a given track at a given time cause congestion), by running the first train to arrive at the gate opening time of 2PM instead of several train loads ahead of time, by not changing the set up for returning trains and people: should have added more trains, equipment, and people after knowing they already hauled twice the number of people they had planned for, not realizing that the number of 10 car Bi Level trains sets didn't work at 2 in the afternoon and should have made adjustments of more and shorter trains more often or go for the Comet cars There are all kinds of things that should have been realized or thought of or questioned long before Super Bowl Sunday, more ability of NJT to react to needed changes Super Bowl morning when crowds became overwhelming, by 6PM, and by 10PM. We really don't know who was in charge...I get the impression it was a secretary to the janitor at Christie's offices in Trenton. Oh, sorry for the sarcastic comment...maybe.
A lot of people in NJ government could care less about their own citizens as long as they pay their taxes and keep their mouths shut, which is why I left.
Henry I guess I was looking for a more detailed layout.
6. Maybe a track diagram of the route in question for Secaucus - Meadowlands including any CPs between and beyond both stations..
7. Was wondering how close trains could run not the 10 minutes that NJT scheduled for the super bowl. That would depend on how close block signals are placed and their signal aspects.
8. Are you saying that both tracks at Secaucus station could not be used at the same time? Are you saying that only one track at Secaucus has access to Meadowlands ?
Of course who in NJ government cares as most of the riders were not from New Jersey ?
There's this from Paul Mulshine of the Star-Ledger...
http://blog.nj.com/njv_paul_mulshine/2014/02/2014_super_bowl_transit_debacle_what_the_investiga.html
Bear in mind, Mr. Mulshine's what I'd call the Star-Ledger's resident "Angry Man", usually with good reason.
From reading a lot of his columns I think ol' Paul was probably born PO'd. When the doctor slapped his bottom I wouldn't be surprised it Paul slapped him back, and probably a few delivery room nurses as well!
PS: Be sure to click on the blue highlighted topics in the column, they're links to NJ Transit. I get the impression NJT was whistling in the dark on this one.
blue streak 1 Actually I posted all this earlier or on similar thread Have not observed the layout of the Meadowlands station but several operational points are desired. 1. What is the allowable headway for MAS trains ? Schedule shows 10 minutes 2. What is the CP layout of the Meadowlands station and also the layout at Secaucus ? Is there a limit of one train at a time at the Meadowlands CP? Two track line off Pascack Valley Line with three track stub station one platform for trks 1&2; one platform for trk 3. Can't determine if high or low platform. 2a. Is the CP cross over located east of Secaucus so empty train could easily reverse direction? Not applicable as you are almost 5 miles from Sec. Jct. and off the main and off the PV line,too, But the two track line doe's have crossovers, ett. 3. Why was there not a person who could immediately act on the additional probable passengers based on last minute Sunday ticket sales?. Knowing commuters generally buy tickets at the last minute why was that not considered a possibility ? You are talking NJT, NFL, NJ Governors' office perhaps, and asking the $64 Question. 4. If all available bi-levels were allocated why were comet cars not kept as additional standby trains ? Could extra trains have been staged east of Secaucus ? All Comet cart pressed into regular service, Bi Levels are sexy public relations pieces, Extra crews and extra trains would have cost more money than NJT wants to spend....so, no, no extra trains were made ready. Anyway, the answer is also in the answer to #3 above. 5. Two engineers should have been assigned to each train so changing directions at each end much faster ? no walking length of train. See answer to #3 above. Inquiring minds want to know ----------------So do all of NJ taxpayers, media reporters, and me.
Actually I posted all this earlier or on similar thread
Have not observed the layout of the Meadowlands station but several operational points are desired.
1. What is the allowable headway for MAS trains ? Schedule shows 10 minutes
2. What is the CP layout of the Meadowlands station and also the layout at Secaucus ? Is there a limit of one train at a time at the Meadowlands CP? Two track line off Pascack Valley Line with three track stub station one platform for trks 1&2; one platform for trk 3. Can't determine if high or low platform.
2a. Is the CP cross over located east of Secaucus so empty train could easily reverse direction? Not applicable as you are almost 5 miles from Sec. Jct. and off the main and off the PV line,too, But the two track line doe's have crossovers, ett.
3. Why was there not a person who could immediately act on the additional probable passengers based on last minute Sunday ticket sales?. Knowing commuters generally buy tickets at the last minute why was that not considered a possibility ? You are talking NJT, NFL, NJ Governors' office perhaps, and asking the $64 Question.
4. If all available bi-levels were allocated why were comet cars not kept as additional standby trains ? Could extra trains have been staged east of Secaucus ? All Comet cart pressed into regular service, Bi Levels are sexy public relations pieces, Extra crews and extra trains would have cost more money than NJT wants to spend....so, no, no extra trains were made ready. Anyway, the answer is also in the answer to #3 above.
5. Two engineers should have been assigned to each train so changing directions at each end much faster ? no walking length of train. See answer to #3 above.
Inquiring minds want to know ----------------So do all of NJ taxpayers, media reporters, and me.
1. What is the allowable headway for MAS trains ?
2. What is the CP layout of the Meadowlands station and also the layout at Secaucus ? Is there a limit of one train at a time at the Meadowlands CP?
2a. Is the CP cross over located east of Secaucus so empty train could easily reverse direction?
3. Why was there not a person who could immediately act on the additional probable passengers based on last minute Sunday ticket sales?. Knowing commuters generally buy tickets at the last minute why was that not considered a possibility ?
4. If all available bi-levels were allocated why were comet cars not kept as additional standby trains ? Could extra trains have been staged east of Secaucus ?
5. Two engineers should have been assigned to each train so changing directions at each end much faster ? no walking length of train.
Inquiring minds want to know ----------------
Just like for the Broncos, there is more than enough blame to go around for NJT.
Coulda, woulda, shouda - the staples of the Blame Game!
Come on Down!
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
if it aint all the above then I will be a monkeys uncle. they say the government is outa money. so when u get the chance to piss people off u do. how else do u get the payee's to pay more money. oldest trick in da book?
Well said. AFAIK, few if any past Super Bowls had as many problems with access as this one. Super Bowl XXVI held in Pontiac, MI 1982 did have some access problems because of the snow and cold.
Another two comments from the Bergen Record:
http://www.northjersey.com/news/244168611_Road_Warrior__A_missed_Super_Bowl_opportunity_missed_its_big_chance_to_shine.html
http://www.northjersey.com/news/opinions/244168571_The_Record__NJ_Transit_hearings.html
Yesterday (Thursday), the local cable news had a "man in the street" interview on NJ Transit's Super Bowl performance. Since I was listening, rather than watching the TV, I missed any identification of the interviewee. However, he raised an interesting point.
Since NJ Transit knew how many passengers it had transported TO the game, it knew that it would have to transport the same number of passengers FROM the game five hours later. Why didn't NJT call in additional crews and use additional train sets that were stored in yards (Waldwick, etc.) for the Monday commuter service?
I'm going to check with friends at NJT, but I suspect that it was:
a. A refusal of NJT management to deviate from the plan, regardless of what was actually happening.
b. The intense pressure on NJT management to avoid overtime at all cost.
c. The management culture that still hasn't recognized that its purpose is to provide a service to the public.
d. All of the above.
To refocus on the Superbowl issue, Henry, your point that the trains from the Meadowlands should have started earlier is certainly valid. Had the trains started a half hour earlier that would have more than 3 early trains. And 3 trains could have carried about 7,200 people or more than 20 per cent of the 33,000 who used the trains to leave the Superbowl.
However, whatever the pros and cons of Bi Level cars are it is hard for me to see how using cars carrying fewer people from the Superbowl would have been an advantage. The only disadvantage would be if in fact loading and unloading takes more time with Bi Levels than with single level cares. Are there any time studies of that? But still, carrying more people is still carrying more people.
The point that NJT might have had more buses standing by to carry some people is valid but the reason for not doing that is murky. Was it a NFL decision? Or a NJT decision? Or both? Here in New Jersey we have very little mass transit in the same sense that New York does: The subways. Commuter trains, as you well know, are very different from subways.
Aside from starting earlier NJT did use their Meadowlands rail line as well as they could. And once people leaving got to Secaucus there were no reports of problems or at least I didn't see any reports.
Finally, to respond to your overall assessment of NJT, Metro North and SEPTA are just as much political entities as NJT is.
John
The question has arisen as to whether NJT was bullied by the NFL or not. Why didn't NJT take charge and say, this is what we have to do to move this many people? Is it because NJT was not allowed to by the NFL? Or, as has been shown over the past several years, NJT does not have the expertise in running a service for the public? I have a strong opinion on this. As recently as last night a disabled train was cancelled and customers invited to wait another hour for the next train. Meanwhile two deadhead trains passed by the disabled train and another revenue train was scheduled before that hour was up. Poor authoritative judgment on part of whoever the authority was and poor communication because of poor understanding of schedules and service by the communicators! NJT is a political tool being abused by political forces for their own persuasions.
In comparison to the rail passengers, interesting to make a comparison for those who traveled by chartered buses:
from Progressive Railroads
Even with the weather on its side, New Jersey Transit was unable to meet the transit demands of the approximately 28,000 attendees who purchased rail tickets to the Meadowlands station. Super Bowlfans waited hours at cramped stations on overcrowded platforms and squeezed into tightly-packed trains to make their way to and from the game. With each 10-car train only able to accommodate1,600 passengers, it took hours for attendees to return home after the Seahawks throttled the Broncos yesterday.
But while train service may have struggled, it appears that the many more fans who arrived by bus had a smoother ride.
The Super Bowl Host Committee offered a “Fan Express” bus service from nine locations in New York and New Jersey. To expedite the trip between Manhattan and New Jersey, one westbound lane of the Lincoln Tunnel was dedicated exclusively to the buses, an infrastructure improvement that isnoticeably lacking during regular weekday commuting times.
So, what are the lessons learned from the first mass transit Super Bowl?
First, in order to make every day trans-Hudson commutes faster, a Lincoln Tunnel westbound exclusive bus lane must be made permanent. Just like the temporary exclusive bus lane facilitated a quick trip for Super Bowl attendees, a permanent westbound XBL lane would provide tremendous time, environmental and economic benefits to the 225,000 bus commuters that use the tunnel every day.
Second, the country’s biggest sports stage only magnified the trials and tribulations that 281,000 NJ Transit commuters have come to expect every day, and demonstrated to the world the need for greater investment in New Jersey’s transportation system. But with the Access to the Region’s Coreproject cancelled, the Gateway Tunnel years away and a bankrupt Transportation Trust Fund, cross-Hudson rail users shouldn’t expect any relief soon.
That’s because unless New Jersey’s elected officials muster the political will to sustainably fund the state’s transportation system (like their neighbors in Pennsylvania and Delaware have recently done) NJ Transit commuters will continue to face the same overcrowding and unreliable service that Super Bowl attendees got a taste of yesterday.
henry6 BaltACD! You're more sarcastic and cynical than me!
BaltACD! You're more sarcastic and cynical than me!
Just Baltimorian that has observed the workings and attitudes of the NFL for over 60 years, especially as it has related to Baltimore and it's fans over that span of time..
henry6 But they didn't do it that quickly....especially when it came time to take them home....they needed buses to move the people...because the trains couldn't do it fast enough, efficiently enough. NFL underestimated the number who would be using train service....opened the gates at 2PM so trains didn't deliver first riders until then instead of starting much, much earlier....first train out of Sec. Jct. scheduled at 1:41PM based on what NFL told them to do. Somebody at NJT should have known better and told the NFL to they'd start delivering people at 1 or 1:30P. NFL math was bad. BiLevels could not load and unload quickly. .held things up. I don't know if NJT held to the scheduled or if they they just loaded til the sardines squealed and the set the train free abandoning schedules...if they did, then good for them. Perhaps NJT should have bye passed Sec. Jct. and just used PATH and Hoboken to Sports Complex for more of the service. But the number who showed up was much more than NJT was told to prepare for.
But they didn't do it that quickly....especially when it came time to take them home....they needed buses to move the people...because the trains couldn't do it fast enough, efficiently enough. NFL underestimated the number who would be using train service....opened the gates at 2PM so trains didn't deliver first riders until then instead of starting much, much earlier....first train out of Sec. Jct. scheduled at 1:41PM based on what NFL told them to do. Somebody at NJT should have known better and told the NFL to they'd start delivering people at 1 or 1:30P. NFL math was bad. BiLevels could not load and unload quickly. .held things up. I don't know if NJT held to the scheduled or if they they just loaded til the sardines squealed and the set the train free abandoning schedules...if they did, then good for them. Perhaps NJT should have bye passed Sec. Jct. and just used PATH and Hoboken to Sports Complex for more of the service. But the number who showed up was much more than NJT was told to prepare for.
The thing about the NFL when it comes to their events - THEY ARE NEVER WRONG and they will not accept any resulting expenses when they are because to their mine they weren't. So the problem is NJT's not the NFL for poor event design. Besides the NFL and the Super Bowl are not marketing themselves to the 'little people' that would have to use public transportation.
Chicago and San Faancisco gallery carfs do not have the ticket collecting/checking inefficiency of the LIRR And NJT bilevels, since the conductor can check and collect with one pass-through.
EMU's always are faster and accelerate better. The one-time CSS&SB line in south Chicago to Indiana uses bi-level EMU's as does the old IC. Comet cars are not EMU's.
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