Was he another Christie appointee?
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Firelock76 henry6 Firelock76 Sorry, but I've just got to ask: Is anyone in New Jersey looking forward to the Super Bowl coming back? Actually there were news media quotes saying exactly that! Attributed to the NFL! Really? Amazing! I'm sure the NFL wouldn't lie about something like that, would they?
henry6 Firelock76 Sorry, but I've just got to ask: Is anyone in New Jersey looking forward to the Super Bowl coming back? Actually there were news media quotes saying exactly that! Attributed to the NFL!
Firelock76 Sorry, but I've just got to ask: Is anyone in New Jersey looking forward to the Super Bowl coming back?
Sorry, but I've just got to ask: Is anyone in New Jersey looking forward to the Super Bowl coming back?
Actually there were news media quotes saying exactly that! Attributed to the NFL!
Really? Amazing! I'm sure the NFL wouldn't lie about something like that, would they?
The NFL only knows one word $$$$$$. Anything else is just noise.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
And i wish they did the same for comments on Fred Frailey's column.
rbandrpredicting human behavior is a dart board game. railroad cAN NOT JUST CALL UP A TRAIN AT THE LAST MINUTE BECAUSE A MASS OF SHEEPALL NEED ONE. IN THE OLD DAYS RIDING TO THE GAME WAS PART OF THE TRADITION.. caps lock stuck sorry two my critics.
Just so you know: the forum software lets you edit your posts if you or the computer make a mistake.
If you look under the 'post' window, you will see a little mystery-meat icon of a pencil. (On at least some systems if you 'mouse over' this, it will pop up a little info window saying 'Edit this post'). If you click on that icon, it will put your post back into 'editing mode' and you can make whatever changes you like. Heaven knows I thank the Kalmbach software people twenty times a day for having provided this... even if I wish they'd made it a bit more self-evident.
My comments are based on the compilation of information from many at many levels of people and operations and by riding and observing. Also knowing media and information services as a profession. Put them all together and it is even closer than a "near mole" experience and report. No, No! I don't know everything...but have just extracted my thoughts based on what I do know and have learned..
rbandr predicting human behavior is a dart board game. railroad cAN NOT JUST CALL UP A TRAIN AT THE LAST MINUTE BECAUSE A MASS OF SHEEPALL NEED ONE. IN THE OLD DAYS RIDING TO THE GAME WAS PART OF THE TRADITION.. caps lock stuck sorry two my critics.
predicting human behavior is a dart board game. railroad cAN NOT JUST CALL UP A TRAIN AT THE LAST MINUTE BECAUSE A MASS OF SHEEPALL NEED ONE. IN THE OLD DAYS RIDING TO THE GAME WAS PART OF THE TRADITION.. caps lock stuck sorry two my critics.
When all else fails, or you're not sure, remember the words of Oscar Wilde:
"Nothing succeeds like excess!"
Or what General Eisenhower said:
"Don't send a battalion to take a hill if you've got a regiment available!"
No problem with the caps lock, could happen to anyone.
Makes sense, Henry. There's a lot of that going on nowadays, both in the public and private sectors, from those who'd rather go bankrupt than admit they're wrong to those who won't let reality interfere with their pet theories.
Still, I'd love to here from a "mole" inside NJT.
Firelock76 Just my opinion, but looking at the trevails of Jersey Transit from "Sandy" to the Super Bowl, I have to wonder if theres some kind of "disconnect" between the people who actually get their hands dirty running trains, and the "suits" in the main office who tell them what to run and when. I'm sure there's plenty of hard-core professionals at NJT who know what's what. Do the "suits" just not listen? I suppose someone on the inside will have to sound off on this, anonymously or otherwise.
Just my opinion, but looking at the trevails of Jersey Transit from "Sandy" to the Super Bowl, I have to wonder if theres some kind of "disconnect" between the people who actually get their hands dirty running trains, and the "suits" in the main office who tell them what to run and when.
I'm sure there's plenty of hard-core professionals at NJT who know what's what. Do the "suits" just not listen? I suppose someone on the inside will have to sound off on this, anonymously or otherwise.
You are right...there is a lot of disconnect and dissatisfaction there. Part is because management at the top is from the political arena, mid management is a mix of some who know better and some who know who to get the job from, and those on the ground who may know what to do but either aren't given direction or approval to think right or who are so demoralized the don't or lost the gumption to give a hoot.
Today (Friday) Metro-North ran its morning commuter trains on a Saturday schedule, expecting many commuters to stay home because of the weather. The Saturday schedule has about 44% of the number of weekday trains, and has few express trains.
The morning commute was a public relations disaster. Trains were packed; local media interviewed many very irate passengers.
By the evening commute, Metro-North had increased the number of trains to about 75% of normal weekday, including expresses, and issued an apology to the public. Evening passengers interviewed by the media were appreciative of both Metro-North's apology and the additional trains.
Compare this to New Jersey Transit and it's Super Bowl performance. NJT is still congratulating itself on its "successful" operation.
It's obvious which agency understands that it's a service organization, and which agency has no clue.
The parking situation was well known by all in the Metropolitan Area.. But remember, this was neither a Giant nor Jet game, so the locals were already mostly counted out. Those who had the grand privilege of parking at the stadium just failed to do so...a slap in the face of those who really wanted to or maybe needed to. But such is the case of a lot of events...free tickets never used, the chance to use a facility like a parking space, lots of 'free prizes" get taken but never used. At several times over the years I found that people never claimed prizes of event tickets either I wanted to go to or friends or business associates did. If prizes were not picked up by the end of business on the day of the event, me or my friends or business associates were able to. It was the prizes that got mailed and not used that made me mad. But people are not reliable and do things with total disregard for others.
Not being in the Greater New York area I am not able to hear the local media. However, I suspect prior to the Super Bowl there was a lot of 'information' conveyed that the parking for vehicles of all varieties was going to be very limited. I suspect the local media belabored this information to the point of nausea. The surprise is that those that heard these 'warnings' believed them and opted for public transportation in the form of NJT which wasn't prepared for the volume.
Amtrak doesn't really play into this except at the Corridor platforms at Secaucus which did not handle any extra train movements except for a couple of Amtrak trains stopping. It is a four track, three platform station. The Sports LIne is two tracks off the double track Pascack Valley Line which is double track off the double track Bergen County LIne which creates a four track Main Line west of Secaucus. All interlockings and switches controlled by the dispatcher.
Henry your analysis is very complete. One thing that has not been discussed is how are the interlockings controlled ? If dispatcher controlled there may have been time out circuits that slowed thru put ? If that is the case a temporary " tower " control at inter locking's with supervisor to immediately change track lie ups ?
Amtrak does have local control at many CPs at the signal bungalows.
The one in three bypass directly to Hoboken would have balanced the 2 platforms at Secaucus + Hoboken with the three platforms at the stadium ?
There was no one problem with the Super Bowl service. Start with the anticipated number of passengers being 16,000 that turned out to be 30,000. Timings, equipment, inability to be flexible, lots of different things fed on each other to cause the problems. The loading and unloading times were a major problem...just like they are in regular service. The BiLevel cars cannot load and unload easily or quickly because of the foyers and up and down stair choices slowing things up. Even with high level platforms people jam up once inside the cars; they really don't work in rapid transit service and barely in the commuter service for which they were purchased. Next the timing. Stadium gates opened at 2PM; the first train was scheduled to arrive just after that. Several things should have or could have been done all at once or separately: Stadium gates open earlier, trains start arriving up to an hour before gates open; more scheduled trains on the closest headways railroad rules and plant would allow. And NJT probably should have (and they may have done this any way) is operate on a load and go basis, unload and turn. Then, return service should have been load and go, too. With the way the game was lopsided, I am sure there were enough to load a train or two long before the schedule (again they might have done so anyway) and have more trainsets staged to go....Three in the Stadium station, at least two more between PV interchange and the Stadium interlocking; perhaps others where possible. The point many will point to is that after the to stadium overcrowding, etc, they had lots of time to make adjustments, order more trainsets and crews for the return crowd. And they could have given a choice at the Stadium with every third train skipping Secaucus and going directly to Hoboken and unloading onto PATH or bus or HBLRT services there. Lots of thoughf and expertise did not go into this.
They could have assigned four trains. Two would would be passing each other midway, while one loaded at the stadium and the other unloaded at Secaucus. They could have planned on a four minute loading and unloading time, changing ends simultaneouslyh, and run a seven-and-a-half minute headway. With the existing infrastructure. Doubled their capacity without problems. Thinking like a transit operator.
Ken..thank you for clearing that up.. wasn't sure but could not believe them to be low. The real problem then is that it should be a three track loop station instead of stub end perhaps/.
I have to disagree here. Look at the logistical issues. It is far easier to move people into an event like the SuperBowl. With on stadium activities and people knowing there will be lines for security screening and the stadium gates opening more than 4 hours before kick-off, people are going to be more dispersed arriving at the venue. After the game, however, everyone wants to leave at once. Even in a blow out like this, maybe the Denver fans might be 30 minutes ahead of the Seattle fans in leaving. But you still are talking 33,000 people all expecting to leave within an hour of each other.
If you have ever arrived at a stadium by car you will also see this phenomenon. There is less of a traffic jam inbound to park, but it can often talk an hour or so to exit the parking lot to leave. There is, and always will be a queuing problem for large events ending at a entertainment venue!
Secondly, the infrastructure to the stadium is a 2.5 mile branch from Secaucus Jct. which is stub ended at the stadium. At Secaucus Jct.it connects to another NJ Transit line for through service to Hoboken. The stadium branch line has two tracks. Realistically it would be difficult to operate more than 2 trainsets, one on each track between the Meadowlands and Secaucus Jct. Anything more than 2 trains (one on each track) requires making a meet between trains en route. So the capacity is the train size times the roundtrip cycle time times 2 trains. Just loading and unloading time makes a roundtrip per trainset of less than 30 mins unlikely. NJ Transit equipped both trains with their highest capacity (double deck) commuter cars to maximize the carrying capacity of each train. With really good track layout at each end you might accommodate 4 trainsets on the line One each at each end of the line loading/unloading and one in transit each way. And you would have to have at least one intermediate signal on the line to do this, and a crossover at each terminal.
In summary this is a no-win situation for NJ Transit. I think they probably did the best job possible given the capacity of the trains and the track. The only way to do better would be to have a bunch of trains queued up nose to tail at the stadium, and they do not have extra track to do this. They can stage two trains at the stadium (one on each track).
But it is easy to play arm chair quarterback on this topic.
The NFL told NJT to expect 16000 to us transit - 33000 did. A signifigant number of bus and limo parking passes wen unused.
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/02/11/super-bowl-train-jam-resulted-from-unused-parking-bus-passes/
Henry,
The Meadowlands Station is high level. Most (all?) of the new or major renovated NJT stations (Plauderville, Ridgewood) are high level platforms.
One interesting station is the Union station on the Raritan Valley line. It's a high platform station on a busy freight line, so there's gauntlet tracks on both sides of the platform to move freight trains out from the platform edge. I don't know if any other NJT stations have gauntlet tracks.
Ken
"Both the LIRR and MN have the culture to have done a great job with the Superbowl and frequently meet rapid transit needs. That is why both went to high platform stations and wide quarter-point doors on mu cars."
Right, Dave. MNRR and LIRR operate more in rapid transit environment, especially the LIRR. Services in and out of the City are more rapid transit: electric, high level platforms, four tracks, frequent trains. If that was what NJT had for the SuperBowl, it might have worked. BUT NJT had diesel push pulls, high level platform at Secaucus but I don't believe so at Sports Stadium (but I may be wrong on that), stub station at one end, railroad rules, long blocks, upstairs/downstairs connections, and not used to rapid transit operating needs. NJT is not a rapid transit system...their people were not prepared, their plant is not a rapid transit plant, their equipment is railroad not rapid transit.
henry6 N JT rail is in charge of commuter rail and nothing do not operate buses or light rail; each is a different division. But, commuter rail is not rapid transit. NJT, NFL, and the politicians don't seem to understand. In rapid transit you usually run electric trains on short headways with high platform stations and cars with at least two double doors on each side, and often run on the marker lights of the train ahead during peak periods. Commuter operations are trains operating by a completely different set of rules and philosophies. Superimposing a rapid transit need onto a commuter railroad is close to impossible to do. NJT didn't come close, couldn't come close, because of the physical characteristics of the railroad and equipment and operating rules.
N JT rail is in charge of commuter rail and nothing do not operate buses or light rail; each is a different division. But, commuter rail is not rapid transit. NJT, NFL, and the politicians don't seem to understand. In rapid transit you usually run electric trains on short headways with high platform stations and cars with at least two double doors on each side, and often run on the marker lights of the train ahead during peak periods. Commuter operations are trains operating by a completely different set of rules and philosophies. Superimposing a rapid transit need onto a commuter railroad is close to impossible to do. NJT didn't come close, couldn't come close, because of the physical characteristics of the railroad and equipment and operating rules.
Excuse me, the Long Island Railroad and to some extent Metro North supermpose rapid transit needs on their commuter railroads. But still, your point is well taken. That is why they went to high platforms on nearly all stations, wide quarter-point doors on their mu cars. Either of these railroads have the culture to
Both the LIRR and MN have the culture to have done a great job with the Superbowl and frequently meet rapid transit needs. That is why both went to high platform stations and wide quarter-point doors on mu cars.
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