Do trains actually have to come to a full stop at the Kearney connection? (No station there!) One reason NJT picked 12,500V instead of 25,000V, like Amtrak NH-Boston, was compatibility with the 11,000V 25Hz NEC. My understanding was that as long as all power was off (except the battery standby hotel power) the train could continue to coast. Doesn't seem reasonable to require it to stop. If fact, if it stopped under the neutral wire, it would be "gapped" and require a push to the live wire to get it started again! Of course if the train is moving slowly and power is off, it might coast to a stop before the programmed contactor sequency goes through its routine, but by that time it would presumably have coasted to have enough of the consist under live wire. This occasionally did happen with the third-rail to AC overhead changeover at Woodlawn, where eastbound is on an upgrade, and that is one reason they moved the changeover to Mt. Vernon East, which is level. Of course, some locals stop at Mt. Vernon East, but the usual trains to New Haven are expresses and do not stop.
Only correction, Dave, is that as I understand it, NJT's MU's cannot convert on the fly as the locomotives do. There is a neutral gap that accomodates that but MU's have to stop to be changed over. I don't know if it is because the gap is too short for an MU set or what.
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As I understand it, the NJT mu's can convert on the fly, but a neutral section of wire is necessary, and each car can convert as it passes the neutral section without having to stop/ However, power must be off while all cars automatically convert, or there will be undue wear on a large number of contactors. (Like pulling out the plug from the wall socket while the high-amperge electric heater is on.) I think the cars are actually protected against that possibility. If the power is on when the first car hits the neutral section, as soon as it reaches the different voiltage, all line switches in all cars will shut off immediately. So coasting is essential/ But this is essentially the same as what was done at Woodlawn for years and what now is done at Mt/ Vernon East.
Amtrak has looked at converting to 25,000Hz 60 Hz NY - Wasshington and Haarrisburg, but apparently the existing equipment, except the catenary itself, was in such good condition that it does not make economic sense. This is in contrast to Metro North, which had an obsolete Cos Cob power plant. There is no reason why Acela cannot run 150mph under 11,000 25Hz catenaruy if the track and catenary can take it.
Clearnances were one issue why Metro North chose 12,500V instead of 25,000V when it converted from 25Hz to 60Hz. Use of some existing feeder cable in good condition and retining rpesent groundning arrangements were other costs savings.
The NJT MU's can run on Metro North's 12,500V 60Hz without any real modification.
The New Haven Line mu's are restricted only to Metro North 12,500V 60Hz and 600-750V third rail dc lines. They cannot run either on Amtrak's 11,000V 25Hz (not enought iron in the transformers) nor on 25,000V (no proper connections for the equipment, plus insulation considerations), They can be modified, however, at no really great cost. And Conn DOT has been looking at running trains into Penn.
However, all electric locomotives orderd by Conn DOT for both Metro North and Shore LIne East will have the same full capability as Amtrak's electric locomotives.
Most of the answers you seek are beyond my knowledge of what is really going on down there along the coast. There is a guy calling himself Dutch who is an MNRR engineer here on some of these pages and hopefully he can drop by and fill us in on the details of what is going on. While I understand you conclusion I don't accept it. First, with locomotives the changeover is being done on the fly now, so SEPTA to New Haven, etc., would not be a real problem. This again underscores my promoting regional railroad authorties of some kind to handle such situations and needs. And I nominate Amtrak simpley because it is an entity tht exists.
I might also point out that we have wandered way of the right of way of the Delaware, Lackawanna, and Western's Morris and Essex Division.
I might imagine that Safe Harbor and Conowingo dam would like to replace their dedicated railroad power turbines with 60 Hz turbines instead, but the 25 Hz substations up and down the NEC fed by them would have to be replaced.
daveklepper Amtrak: Boston - east end of New Haven Station: 25,000V 60Hz AC. On Metro North New Haven _ New Rochell: 12,500V 60Hz AC. New Rochell (CP "Shell") - CP Harold (near Sunnyside Yard) 25,000V 60Hz AC. CP Harold - Washington and Harrisburgh 11,000V 25Hz AC.
Amtrak: Boston - east end of New Haven Station: 25,000V 60Hz AC. On Metro North New Haven _ New Rochell: 12,500V 60Hz AC. New Rochell (CP "Shell") - CP Harold (near Sunnyside Yard) 25,000V 60Hz AC. CP Harold - Washington and Harrisburgh 11,000V 25Hz AC.
Henry: Dave Kelpper:
Questions: How far along is the rebuilding of the CAT New Rochell - New Haven? Is this rebuilding capable of handling 25,000v 60Hz. What part if any is MN Conn equipment is able to operate on 25,000Hz and is all new equipment being so ordered? Is it true that the CAT in NYP cannot be upgraded to 25,000V because of clearance problems? Will the conversion of NJ - Washington to new 25,000 V 60 HZ run into the following problems?
1. Converting those stations that still use 25 Hz equipment?
2. Converting SEPTA equipment to 60Hz?
3. Any station's CAT not able to handle 25,000V due to clearance problems? 4. Any other problems?
It appears that until all CAT is converted to 25,000V - 60Hz that Conn - NJ through service is just a dream
I hope I am overstating the conversion problem...that means NJT is too and the problem is not as big as they claim and can easily be fixed. Actually, the locomotives have no problem but at present I am told that in order for the MU's to convert they must be stopped to convert. And with the wire neutral between systems so that trains actually coast from one system to the next while converting, it is not possible to run MU's in traffic.
And, yes, the FRA rule of a motorized MU car being a locomotive and subject to the same inspection schedule as a locomotive was a reason cited by NJT for going with engine drawn trains.
MU performance is better because of the rapid acceleration and deceleration which allows for faster schedules which allows for more trains per given time period. Use of trailers is imperative for economy. But I think so is shorter trains which can be faster and have less dwell time per station allowing for better effeciencies in schedules and service to be achieved. And I think there are those at NJT that know all this, or are beginning to realize this, about MU's vs loco drawn trains but are not in a position say so publicly. And I don't the the duel mode locomotive is the end all answer, either. A help when bringing a train in off a low density line, yes, but not for all trains on all lines.
And I think Dave's list of roads which used trailers is so important to note. Compare schedules of 25 and 50 years ago with those of today and see how much faster they were with motor/trailer combinations!
Davekelpper: Technical question; Are NJ Transit'w EMUs set up for either 25hz or 60hz only or can they change on the fly? Are the new EMUs on order set up to change on the fly? If they can change on the fly does each set change separately or does the whole train have to change at the same time (requires a full train length dead space)
YOu are overstating the changeover problem. It is no more or less difficult that what happened at Woodlawn, now at Mt. Vernon East, where the New Haven switched from AC overhead to New YOrk Central DC third rail and reverse. The problem is no better or worse with locomotives than with mu's. And the New Haven ran both for years.
The main reason NJT went to locos and push-pull is maintenance cost. FRA inspections and other maintenance is about the same for mu's as it is for locomotives. Times for non-power coaches are roughly four times the intervales, and so maintenance on trailer coaches is roughly one quarter that on mu's and locomotives.
But you are absolutely right that mu trains perform much better, and so save on crew costs and requirements for total equipment numbers.
The private companies in the past had it right, but todays supersmart consultants seem to refuse to learn the lesson. Lackawanna, South Shore, the IRT, the BMT, North Shore, CA&E, Boston Rever Beach and Lynn, Long Island, all used combinations of trailer and motor cars. That is absolutely the best compromise for suburban service,
Is the Amtrak area in question running 25 Hz or 60 Hz? That may have contributed to the those early decisions in some fashion. It's really hard to get 25 Hz, but 60 Hz is available everywhere.
Truthfully, I don't. I do know they have the same changeover problem on the Coast Line beyond Matawan to Long Branch. It is a very cumbersome, and thus expensive for equipment purposes, operation. Why the M&E and the Long Branch systems weren't done compatable with Amtrak, I really don't know nor understand.
Henry: Sounds as if the situation is more complicated than a first glance gives, Do you know if the present plans for THE has 25,000v 60hz all the way into the terminal? could be that has become a consideration.
You really don't want to get me started. Oh, hache eeee double hockey sticks! You have.
NJT was looking for a universal car and engine system which would work anywhere...all cars push pull for either diesel or electric traction, interchangeable from one line to another. Looked good on paper, works neat on flat terrain and stations far apart (read "the Corridor"). But on the commuter lines of the former DL&W, Erie, NY&LB, and CNJ, the hilly terrain, many curves, the closeness of stations, have proven otherwise Locomotive hauled trains are slower to accelerate and decelerate and are not fuel efficient on many, quick station stops. NJT countered with high platforms and bilevel cars but that has only exacerbated the acceleration problems and extended station dwell times. On the hills, around the curves, and short leaps between stations are best dealt with with MU's. Schedules are now longer because of these problems. Als the incompataility of electric systems between M&E and Corridor are also leave MU out of system use because there is no way for a "glide through changeover" as is on locomotives. So, they are finally working on buying new MU's. But all you have to do to understand the accleration differnece is to take a ride on each and feel the difference.
suspect either traffic (what kind of cars are the electrics hauling) or the EMUs are needed elsewhere maybe NYP - Trenton? Remember the EMUs accelerate faster on long (12+) trains.
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