On NJT phase gaps are between two same power sources. At Baker (wes of Morristown Sta.) for instance, west of the gap is fed from Denville Sub while east of the gap is from New Providence (P&D Juct.) sub. Jumping between sub stations would cause great problems with train and substations, thus the gap. The gap at the junctions of the M&E and Corridor (and west of Matawan on the NJCL, nee NY&LB) is between two dissimilar power sources and thus the need for changeovers inside the train.
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Phase Breaks: What are they? Since AC power is three phase with each phase 120 degrees different than the other two each on its own sine wave. Imagine three overlaping sine waves.That is why if you are in an urburn or only semi rural area there are three primary power lines to your transformers. In some areas the transformer is connected to two phases and other locations (esp the south the transformer is connected primary to ground). The winding ratio gives 120/240 V to your house. In most areas the primary to ground voltage is 7200V and Phase to Phase is not 14000V but about 12,800V.
The power generators (commercial and RR) strive to balance the load on all three phases. New high voltage power transformers are wound to mitigate some unbalance (don't remember how much) but the old PRR, RDG, & NH systems probably could not. All overhead AC CAT is now single phase (I recall that GN had a two wire 2 phase system). RRs and light rail are an unique problem because the loads are naturally unbalanced. Now if the RR source in one section is Phase A and the next section Phase B then a phase break is necessary. Breaks are only about 1 ft so even powering through a phase break for modern electrical equipment will never be felt because the power goes immediately to a rectifier. Older equipment such as a GG1 and MP54 had motor generators and the sudden 120 degree phase shift was not good for the motor so coasting thorough a phase break was called for. Remember also that modern CAT usually have a lot of isolation points that are on the same phase and you never notice them and i've not noticed anything through a phase break even when in an older car. 1ft at 60MPH = 1/88 of a second (60MPH = 88ft/sec).
Actually there is an effort to become standard but its going to cost a lot of money and time (probably 20 yrs). Upgrading CAT to 25Kv is the first item then all the electrical equipment both rolling stock and trackside equipment. electrical lot. There are no phase breaks on AC to third rail because the source to inverters is switched from the rectifiers to the third rail shoe. Don't know the relay speed.
There is usually a break between different DC power stations and also isolation points. You can especially notice them on the NYC transit subway cars as they go black for a very short time on the older cars. Not so noticeable on MN
So wouldn't it be cheaper and easier for all overhead wire from Boston to the south and west be of the same standard instead of gaps, changeovers, different equipment. Railroads succeeded when 4ft 8 1/2 inches was adopted, knuckle couplers and Westinghouse's air brake system was adapted, and other standards were set. Why shouldn't they (not couldn't, shouldn't) they do that with continguous electric power for Amtrak, ConDOT, NJT, SEPTA, and MARC?
That is what I have been told about the Metro-North ConnDot NH Line mu's on order. Because ConDot does want Penn Sta. Access (West Side Access), and also wants to be able to operate the cars in Shore Line East service.
It is hard to tell whether there is any equivalent third rail dc phase break. At every switch there is always a gap in the third rail and the reason is obvious, and this is true no matter which side of the track has the third rail. It is up to the power engineering people to determine whether all dc output substation should be tied together on a common hot bus all the time or whether sectionalization is important. Both methods have advantages. A common hot bus does not mean a poor performing substation cannot be taken off line, since all that is necessary is to open the output feeder circuit breakers for that station.
After reserch the latest EMUs should have no phase break, voltage, or frequency problems. Example: SEPTA will have AC propulsion on their Silverliner Vs. The transformer on the car provides either 25Hz 11Kv(nominal) or 60Hz 12.5 Kv (doesn't matter which and no switching required) with transformer output going directly to 4 wave rectifiers that supply various inverters (traction, passenger convience, emergency, battery charger, signals, communications, etc. The AC traction motors can supply regenerative braking first to all the above car electrical and then to the CAT (if it can take the power) or to dynamic brakes + the cars are also going to have blended braking much as AMTRAK. The specs require a MTBF(mean time between failure rate) of 50,000hr service for the traction motors.
A provision for the transformers is that they are all wired for a 25Kv transformer tap and for SEPTA to be able to install automatic switching on each car individually as a car passes into a different voltage (ie 11Kv/12,5Kv - to 25Kv). So the Silverliner Vs will be able to go from WASH to Sunnyside now and with the tap switching installed will be able to go WASH - BOS with no change of any power sources on the present NEC..I suspect that MN/CONNDOT's new EMUs will do the same with the additional priviso of third rail imput to their inverters.
SEPTA Silverliner Vs are speced to pass through phase breaks with power on. Must be other breaks on the NEC and old RDG CAT.
henry6there were no phase gaps on the former PRR. Nor the NH. Nor the DL&W. Nor the LIRR. Nor the NYC.
NH only had one power plant, didn't they? So no need for gaps? And no need for gaps on DC electrifications like DL&W-LIRR-NYC?
CSX uses the high line frequenly. My understanding is that AMTRAK has wanted to reinstall the CAT and get trackage rights in case of difficulties at 30th street station but CSX has said no so far.
Conrail did pull down the catenary on the freight "High Line" bypass around 30th Street Station, and believe me, Amtrak certainly wishes they had not done so! Now, I am not even sure the track is still in place!
aegrotatio Makes me sad that Conrail felt the need to pull down the catenary on 'their' parts of the NEC. There is so much electrical capacity on the NEC it's unbelievable to me. As for what a Phase Gap is, the power is generated by several sources as you know. These sources have to be synchronized with each other at the same time instantaneously when they come online. This is really hard and expensive to coordinate. It's just easier to separate the sections where practical. Case in point, a motor-generator converting a 60 Hz source to 25 Hz in New Jersey must be timed so it become "in-phase" with the hydroelectric 25 Hz turbines (at several dams) that power the other parts of the system, and they all have to alternate at exactly the same time. Instead, just separate them so they don't have to synchronize. It's a little more complicated but that's the basic concept. Somewhere else in this forum there was mention of a phase gap in Delaware. First, as explained elsewhere above, a phase gap is a dead zone between two zones of the same power and not between two different power sources as you have described. Second, CR did not pull down wire on the NEC but rather on branch lines along the Susquehanna south of Harrisburg and from Harrisburg east to Paoli and on freight routes circumventing Philadelphia. The Corridor itself from New Haven to Washington, DC, remains intact (sort of...it keeps falling down in many places because it is so old and has to be replaced!).
Makes me sad that Conrail felt the need to pull down the catenary on 'their' parts of the NEC. There is so much electrical capacity on the NEC it's unbelievable to me.
As for what a Phase Gap is, the power is generated by several sources as you know. These sources have to be synchronized with each other at the same time instantaneously when they come online. This is really hard and expensive to coordinate. It's just easier to separate the sections where practical. Case in point, a motor-generator converting a 60 Hz source to 25 Hz in New Jersey must be timed so it become "in-phase" with the hydroelectric 25 Hz turbines (at several dams) that power the other parts of the system, and they all have to alternate at exactly the same time. Instead, just separate them so they don't have to synchronize.
It's a little more complicated but that's the basic concept.
Somewhere else in this forum there was mention of a phase gap in Delaware.
First, as explained elsewhere above, a phase gap is a dead zone between two zones of the same power and not between two different power sources as you have described.
Second, CR did not pull down wire on the NEC but rather on branch lines along the Susquehanna south of Harrisburg and from Harrisburg east to Paoli and on freight routes circumventing Philadelphia. The Corridor itself from New Haven to Washington, DC, remains intact (sort of...it keeps falling down in many places because it is so old and has to be replaced!).
Just to throw something dirty into the wash: a one time electical engineer for the PRR, then Conrail, once proudly told me that on the old PRR when a power station went down in NJ they could throw power across the whole system from a station, I believe, in Wilmington, DE and still have full power at Sunnyside Yard! As noted there were no phase gaps on the former PRR. Nor the NH. Nor the DL&W. Nor the LIRR. Nor the NYC. Only on NJT! (Oh, yeah, the New York subway has them at switches, though.)
henry6 A term misinterpreted here has been "phase gap". It it the neutral or dead gap between two similarly powered sections of cat and not the glide space between the two different power voltage systems.
A term misinterpreted here has been "phase gap". It it the neutral or dead gap between two similarly powered sections of cat and not the glide space between the two different power voltage systems.
Yes, henry6 is correct. I don't know if anyone else has been following a thread on another forum, but I've learned a lot about it.
At a PHASE GAP, (section of unpowered/isolated catenary between two sections of the same catenary [like at Red Bank, for example]), a train must a) lower pans completely if it is traveling at 25mph or less, or b) not draw power, but may keep pans raised, if it is traveling more than 25mph. I'm not sure exactly why PGs exist, but my guess is that they divide the catenary because different parts are powered by separate substations.
At a Voltage Change, such as at Kearny (SWIFT or the Waterfront Connection) or Matawan, Arrows can not travel through. As I mentioned before, the switch on the Arrow IIIs for the different voltages, is located under the carbody. The train must come to a complete stop, before the crew can go down there and flip the switch.
Also, there are no phase gaps on the NEC that I am aware of.
Hope this helps.
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henry6 As of now there is the Amtrak 60 cycle system on the Corridor and to Matawan on the NY&LB but the 25 cycle system west of Matawan to Long Branch and on the former Lackawanna lines.
daveklepperSo has the NY&LB electrification been changed from 12,500 to 25,000?
I am reading on other fourms that NJT did indeed allow MU's to coast through a phase gap on the NY&LB and having to lower the pans on longer trains but not when there was a change of power east of Matawan because the power change switch is a manual switch on the outside of each car which meant the train crew had to make the switch. As of now there is the Amtrak 60 cycle system on the Corridor and to Matawan on the NY&LB but the 25 cycle system west of Matawan to Long Branch and on the former Lackawanna lines.
The trains I rode going to Red Bank and back lowered their pantographs going through the change. Whether this practice continued or was a safety measure at the start, I would not know. I would think that simply shutting off power and coasting might be just as safe. I had assumed the NJT electrification was 12.500 and not 25,000, and I was mistaken. So has the NY&LB electrification been changed from 12,500 to 25,000? Or does NJT have different electrifications on "their" two electrified lines?
ns3010 I believe that most (if not all) Arrows have been moved to the NEC because of their speed. The quicker acceleration/deceleration allows for shorter schedules, which is more needed on the NEC than on the M&E Lines. All M&E and NJCL trains into Hoboken are now diesel-powered (in the event that New York is not accesable [i.e. the tunnels are blocked (like on Tuesday) or Portal gets stuck open AGAIN!(like on Wednesday)], trains will be rerouted to Hoboken, with connections to PATH.)
I believe that most (if not all) Arrows have been moved to the NEC because of their speed. The quicker acceleration/deceleration allows for shorter schedules, which is more needed on the NEC than on the M&E Lines. All M&E and NJCL trains into Hoboken are now diesel-powered (in the event that New York is not accesable [i.e. the tunnels are blocked (like on Tuesday) or Portal gets stuck open AGAIN!(like on Wednesday)], trains will be rerouted to Hoboken, with connections to PATH.)
That's the very reason the Arrows should be on the M&E instead: grades and curves, stations on grades and curves, closely spaced stations need the MU's for acceleration and deceleration. Locomotive hauled trains on the M&E have caused longer schedules to be implimented. The Corridor, the relatively flat line with few major curves, higher speed limits, and longer distances between station stops do not hamper locomotive hauled trains' schedules like they do on the hills. NJCL has similar problems of rolling and curving right of way and some closer spaced stations. No, the MU's should be on the M&E at least.
Midtown Direct is a marketing term coined by NJT for trains from the former Lackawanna lines which go to NYP
daveklepperThe trains may be locomotive -hauled now, but the earlier Manhattan Direct trains were not locomotive hauled but were mu's, and they could operate both om Amtrak;s 11,000 25Hz and NJT's 12,500 60Hz. I now remember that the report was THEY DID NOT STOP BUT INSTEAD LOWERED ALL PANTOGRAPHS WHEN THE FIRST CAR REACHED THE NEUTRAL ZONE AND THEN RAISED ALL PANTOGRAPHS WHEN THE LAST CAR LEFT THE NEUTRAL ZONE.
The pre-2003 spec instr don't mention any voltage change on the NY&LB-- they just say 12kV all the way to Long Branch. But trains probably did switch from 25 Hz to 60 Hz at MP 7.3, where they now also switch to 25 kV.
So-- did NY&LB MU trains always have to lower all pantographs and coast thru the gap at MP 7.3, just because of a frequency change?
ns3010A few years back (don't remember exactly when it was) Amtrak was planning on changing the voltage on their catenary. Anticipating this, NJT jumped the gun and upgraded theirs to the proposed Amtrak voltage. However, Amtrak changed their mind and left the catenary as is. So now Transit and Amtrak have different voltages on their catenary
Actually AMTRAK did not change their mind. The politicians did. For reasons I do not remember the budget proposal to change AMTRAK died in congress and has never been proposed again. One big problem is SEPTA AND I'LL COVER THAT IN A FUTURE THREAD. Fortunately NJ Transit went ahead and built for 25Kv 60 Hz and the conversion of NY&LB and M&E to that power will be fairly simple.
Arrow IIIs MUST come to a COMPLETE STOP before changing voltage. The switch is located UNDER the carbody, so the crew must stop the train, get off the train, and flip the switch. ALPs have the capability to change automatically on the fly. That is why they are used on MidTown Direct trains and Long Branch-NYP trains.
Now the reason for the different voltages (one is 11,000KV and the other is 25,000KV; don't remember which is which). A few years back (don't remember exactly when it was) Amtrak was planning on changing the voltage on their catenary. Anticipating this, NJT jumped the gun and upgraded theirs to the proposed Amtrak voltage. However, Amtrak changed their mind and left the catenary as is. So now Transit and Amtrak have different voltages on their catenary.
I do not know of the Arrow IVs will have the capability to change on the fly. Likewise, I don't know if the new dual modes will be able to switch from diesel to electric (or vice-versa) on the fly; they will most likely be able to handle the voltage change.
I like your thinking Dave:"I prefer to call it the NY&LB and not the NJCL". I prefer that along with the Pennsy Main, the Morristown side or M&E, and the Boonton Line or Steam train. It was the Jersey Central and the Erie (if not Wearie). And the West Shore. If it wernt dem, it wernt a commuter train!
I am also jealous. I never got a cab ride in a GG1...I just loved 'em.
You are correct. On the 75th birthday of the New Haven RR, sometime in the 70's, a friendly engineer gave me a GG-1 cab ride from New Haven to Penn Station on a Boston - Washington Amtrak train. About a month or even less after the merger of the NYNH&H into PC, GG-1's took over from FL-9''s and EP-5's ("Jets") between NY and NH on all Boston trains, which were moved from GCT to Penn. And in the summer of 1972 a fan trip was run using PRR M-54 mu's to New Haven. That trip saw them going to New Canaan, as well, probably the only time.
None of this equipment could operate east of Harold Tower, near Sunnyside Yard, today. Their transformers are designed only for 25Hz operation and would burn up with the higher frequency, the laminations would get very hot. If the power reached the traction motors, the effect would also be seen there.
The FL-9's were quickly moved to the Brewster commuter service, a few to the Poughkeepsie service, and a few kept on commuter and Hartford trains out of GCT. The Jets were tried in frieght service in New Jersey and some survived for a while there.
And PC rand GG1's through to New Haven back then, too. I'm not sure it could be done today though
I prefer to call it the NY&LB and not the NJCL. I presume one or more test mu trains were run using the information I received at the time. I did not know this was not a regular service maatter, and of course I have to respect your statements, since you were there.
I did ride the mu service to Red Bank, when that was the extent of electrification on the NY&LB, and the method then was as I described.
Also, I realize the original M-2 Metro North-CDOT mu's can run under Sunnyside - Washington catenary, because they did so before the New Haven electrification was converted to 60Hz. They were placed in service while the 4400's, the "washboards," were still running. The New Haven Line mu's purchased since then probably not, because 60Hz transformer is less than half the size of a 25Hz transformer with the same power, voltage, and ciurrent. But anything on order now for the New Haven Line will have that capability because CDOT is serious about Penn Stations service.
Dave, I was on the first Midtown Direct train from Dover. Service has always been locomtovie hauled. Midtown Direct is only former M&E lines to NYP. Service up from Matawan on the NJCL and Trenton on the Corridor were always MU. But when NJCL electrificaiton was extended to Long Branch, they turned to locomotive hauled trains with the power change point just west of Matawan. But never was there an MU direct from M&E to NYP. The way an MU would have to change power would have to be the way you describe, but almost impossible to do, especially with the curvature and incline eastbound onto the Corridor; maximum speed cannot always be maintained especially with traffic ahead and restriciting or stop signals at the entrance. Westbound is a descending grade but again you've got traffic entrence problems and restrictions. In either direction there would be many, too many, stalled trains.
The trains may be locomotive -hauled now, but the earlier Manhattan Direct trains were not locomotive hauled but were mu's, and they could operate both om Amtrak;s 11,000 25Hz and NJT's 12,500 60Hz. I now remember that the report was THEY DID NOT STOP BUT INSTEAD LOWERED ALL PANTOGRAPHS WHEN THE FIRST CAR REACHED THE NEUTRAL ZONE AND THEN RAISED ALL PANTOGRAPHS WHEN THE LAST CAR LEFT THE NEUTRAL ZONE.
No. Trains don't have to and don't come to a stop. There is a glide or neutral zone where train coast while conversion is made. These are locomotive hauled trans and not MU's. MU's would have to stop in the dead zone to change over. The complications of the MU would be that the length of the train would mean that pans would be pulling power from both systems, definitely not desirable. So the train would have to 1) be long enough, 2) stop shy of fouling the new power source wire, 3) lower pans on forward car or cars, 4) pull forward to clear old power source and probably far enough so that enough pans reach new power, 5) stop and raise forward pans and 6) proceed. At least that's how I envision the process The coasting space is probably good for only about two pans based on locomotive use rather than long enough for a whole 12 car set of MU's. The other problem that sneaks in is that because of traffic you might not always be able to go track speed and coast effectively, especially with an MU set. This is not to say that an automatic or other changeover system is not possible with MU's but just that there is nothing capable in the MU's at the moment. And, yes, there have been instances where a train has stalled in the gap and needed a shove to be able to move on.
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