suspect either traffic (what kind of cars are the electrics hauling) or the EMUs are needed elsewhere maybe NYP - Trenton? Remember the EMUs accelerate faster on long (12+) trains.
You really don't want to get me started. Oh, hache eeee double hockey sticks! You have.
NJT was looking for a universal car and engine system which would work anywhere...all cars push pull for either diesel or electric traction, interchangeable from one line to another. Looked good on paper, works neat on flat terrain and stations far apart (read "the Corridor"). But on the commuter lines of the former DL&W, Erie, NY&LB, and CNJ, the hilly terrain, many curves, the closeness of stations, have proven otherwise Locomotive hauled trains are slower to accelerate and decelerate and are not fuel efficient on many, quick station stops. NJT countered with high platforms and bilevel cars but that has only exacerbated the acceleration problems and extended station dwell times. On the hills, around the curves, and short leaps between stations are best dealt with with MU's. Schedules are now longer because of these problems. Als the incompataility of electric systems between M&E and Corridor are also leave MU out of system use because there is no way for a "glide through changeover" as is on locomotives. So, they are finally working on buying new MU's. But all you have to do to understand the accleration differnece is to take a ride on each and feel the difference.
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
Henry: Sounds as if the situation is more complicated than a first glance gives, Do you know if the present plans for THE has 25,000v 60hz all the way into the terminal? could be that has become a consideration.
Truthfully, I don't. I do know they have the same changeover problem on the Coast Line beyond Matawan to Long Branch. It is a very cumbersome, and thus expensive for equipment purposes, operation. Why the M&E and the Long Branch systems weren't done compatable with Amtrak, I really don't know nor understand.
Is the Amtrak area in question running 25 Hz or 60 Hz? That may have contributed to the those early decisions in some fashion. It's really hard to get 25 Hz, but 60 Hz is available everywhere.
YOu are overstating the changeover problem. It is no more or less difficult that what happened at Woodlawn, now at Mt. Vernon East, where the New Haven switched from AC overhead to New YOrk Central DC third rail and reverse. The problem is no better or worse with locomotives than with mu's. And the New Haven ran both for years.
The main reason NJT went to locos and push-pull is maintenance cost. FRA inspections and other maintenance is about the same for mu's as it is for locomotives. Times for non-power coaches are roughly four times the intervales, and so maintenance on trailer coaches is roughly one quarter that on mu's and locomotives.
But you are absolutely right that mu trains perform much better, and so save on crew costs and requirements for total equipment numbers.
The private companies in the past had it right, but todays supersmart consultants seem to refuse to learn the lesson. Lackawanna, South Shore, the IRT, the BMT, North Shore, CA&E, Boston Rever Beach and Lynn, Long Island, all used combinations of trailer and motor cars. That is absolutely the best compromise for suburban service,
Amtrak: Boston - east end of New Haven Station: 25,000V 60Hz AC. On Metro North New Haven _ New Rochell: 12,500V 60Hz AC. New Rochell (CP "Shell") - CP Harold (near Sunnyside Yard) 25,000V 60Hz AC. CP Harold - Washington and Harrisburgh 11,000V 25Hz AC.
Davekelpper: Technical question; Are NJ Transit'w EMUs set up for either 25hz or 60hz only or can they change on the fly? Are the new EMUs on order set up to change on the fly? If they can change on the fly does each set change separately or does the whole train have to change at the same time (requires a full train length dead space)
I hope I am overstating the conversion problem...that means NJT is too and the problem is not as big as they claim and can easily be fixed. Actually, the locomotives have no problem but at present I am told that in order for the MU's to convert they must be stopped to convert. And with the wire neutral between systems so that trains actually coast from one system to the next while converting, it is not possible to run MU's in traffic.
And, yes, the FRA rule of a motorized MU car being a locomotive and subject to the same inspection schedule as a locomotive was a reason cited by NJT for going with engine drawn trains.
MU performance is better because of the rapid acceleration and deceleration which allows for faster schedules which allows for more trains per given time period. Use of trailers is imperative for economy. But I think so is shorter trains which can be faster and have less dwell time per station allowing for better effeciencies in schedules and service to be achieved. And I think there are those at NJT that know all this, or are beginning to realize this, about MU's vs loco drawn trains but are not in a position say so publicly. And I don't the the duel mode locomotive is the end all answer, either. A help when bringing a train in off a low density line, yes, but not for all trains on all lines.
And I think Dave's list of roads which used trailers is so important to note. Compare schedules of 25 and 50 years ago with those of today and see how much faster they were with motor/trailer combinations!
daveklepper Amtrak: Boston - east end of New Haven Station: 25,000V 60Hz AC. On Metro North New Haven _ New Rochell: 12,500V 60Hz AC. New Rochell (CP "Shell") - CP Harold (near Sunnyside Yard) 25,000V 60Hz AC. CP Harold - Washington and Harrisburgh 11,000V 25Hz AC.
Henry: Dave Kelpper:
Questions: How far along is the rebuilding of the CAT New Rochell - New Haven? Is this rebuilding capable of handling 25,000v 60Hz. What part if any is MN Conn equipment is able to operate on 25,000Hz and is all new equipment being so ordered? Is it true that the CAT in NYP cannot be upgraded to 25,000V because of clearance problems? Will the conversion of NJ - Washington to new 25,000 V 60 HZ run into the following problems?
1. Converting those stations that still use 25 Hz equipment?
2. Converting SEPTA equipment to 60Hz?
3. Any station's CAT not able to handle 25,000V due to clearance problems? 4. Any other problems?
It appears that until all CAT is converted to 25,000V - 60Hz that Conn - NJ through service is just a dream
I might imagine that Safe Harbor and Conowingo dam would like to replace their dedicated railroad power turbines with 60 Hz turbines instead, but the 25 Hz substations up and down the NEC fed by them would have to be replaced.
Most of the answers you seek are beyond my knowledge of what is really going on down there along the coast. There is a guy calling himself Dutch who is an MNRR engineer here on some of these pages and hopefully he can drop by and fill us in on the details of what is going on. While I understand you conclusion I don't accept it. First, with locomotives the changeover is being done on the fly now, so SEPTA to New Haven, etc., would not be a real problem. This again underscores my promoting regional railroad authorties of some kind to handle such situations and needs. And I nominate Amtrak simpley because it is an entity tht exists.
I might also point out that we have wandered way of the right of way of the Delaware, Lackawanna, and Western's Morris and Essex Division.
As I understand it, the NJT mu's can convert on the fly, but a neutral section of wire is necessary, and each car can convert as it passes the neutral section without having to stop/ However, power must be off while all cars automatically convert, or there will be undue wear on a large number of contactors. (Like pulling out the plug from the wall socket while the high-amperge electric heater is on.) I think the cars are actually protected against that possibility. If the power is on when the first car hits the neutral section, as soon as it reaches the different voiltage, all line switches in all cars will shut off immediately. So coasting is essential/ But this is essentially the same as what was done at Woodlawn for years and what now is done at Mt/ Vernon East.
Amtrak has looked at converting to 25,000Hz 60 Hz NY - Wasshington and Haarrisburg, but apparently the existing equipment, except the catenary itself, was in such good condition that it does not make economic sense. This is in contrast to Metro North, which had an obsolete Cos Cob power plant. There is no reason why Acela cannot run 150mph under 11,000 25Hz catenaruy if the track and catenary can take it.
Clearnances were one issue why Metro North chose 12,500V instead of 25,000V when it converted from 25Hz to 60Hz. Use of some existing feeder cable in good condition and retining rpesent groundning arrangements were other costs savings.
The NJT MU's can run on Metro North's 12,500V 60Hz without any real modification.
The New Haven Line mu's are restricted only to Metro North 12,500V 60Hz and 600-750V third rail dc lines. They cannot run either on Amtrak's 11,000V 25Hz (not enought iron in the transformers) nor on 25,000V (no proper connections for the equipment, plus insulation considerations), They can be modified, however, at no really great cost. And Conn DOT has been looking at running trains into Penn.
However, all electric locomotives orderd by Conn DOT for both Metro North and Shore LIne East will have the same full capability as Amtrak's electric locomotives.
Only correction, Dave, is that as I understand it, NJT's MU's cannot convert on the fly as the locomotives do. There is a neutral gap that accomodates that but MU's have to stop to be changed over. I don't know if it is because the gap is too short for an MU set or what.
Do trains actually have to come to a full stop at the Kearney connection? (No station there!) One reason NJT picked 12,500V instead of 25,000V, like Amtrak NH-Boston, was compatibility with the 11,000V 25Hz NEC. My understanding was that as long as all power was off (except the battery standby hotel power) the train could continue to coast. Doesn't seem reasonable to require it to stop. If fact, if it stopped under the neutral wire, it would be "gapped" and require a push to the live wire to get it started again! Of course if the train is moving slowly and power is off, it might coast to a stop before the programmed contactor sequency goes through its routine, but by that time it would presumably have coasted to have enough of the consist under live wire. This occasionally did happen with the third-rail to AC overhead changeover at Woodlawn, where eastbound is on an upgrade, and that is one reason they moved the changeover to Mt. Vernon East, which is level. Of course, some locals stop at Mt. Vernon East, but the usual trains to New Haven are expresses and do not stop.
No. Trains don't have to and don't come to a stop. There is a glide or neutral zone where train coast while conversion is made. These are locomotive hauled trans and not MU's. MU's would have to stop in the dead zone to change over. The complications of the MU would be that the length of the train would mean that pans would be pulling power from both systems, definitely not desirable. So the train would have to 1) be long enough, 2) stop shy of fouling the new power source wire, 3) lower pans on forward car or cars, 4) pull forward to clear old power source and probably far enough so that enough pans reach new power, 5) stop and raise forward pans and 6) proceed. At least that's how I envision the process The coasting space is probably good for only about two pans based on locomotive use rather than long enough for a whole 12 car set of MU's. The other problem that sneaks in is that because of traffic you might not always be able to go track speed and coast effectively, especially with an MU set. This is not to say that an automatic or other changeover system is not possible with MU's but just that there is nothing capable in the MU's at the moment. And, yes, there have been instances where a train has stalled in the gap and needed a shove to be able to move on.
The trains may be locomotive -hauled now, but the earlier Manhattan Direct trains were not locomotive hauled but were mu's, and they could operate both om Amtrak;s 11,000 25Hz and NJT's 12,500 60Hz. I now remember that the report was THEY DID NOT STOP BUT INSTEAD LOWERED ALL PANTOGRAPHS WHEN THE FIRST CAR REACHED THE NEUTRAL ZONE AND THEN RAISED ALL PANTOGRAPHS WHEN THE LAST CAR LEFT THE NEUTRAL ZONE.
Dave, I was on the first Midtown Direct train from Dover. Service has always been locomtovie hauled. Midtown Direct is only former M&E lines to NYP. Service up from Matawan on the NJCL and Trenton on the Corridor were always MU. But when NJCL electrificaiton was extended to Long Branch, they turned to locomotive hauled trains with the power change point just west of Matawan. But never was there an MU direct from M&E to NYP. The way an MU would have to change power would have to be the way you describe, but almost impossible to do, especially with the curvature and incline eastbound onto the Corridor; maximum speed cannot always be maintained especially with traffic ahead and restriciting or stop signals at the entrance. Westbound is a descending grade but again you've got traffic entrence problems and restrictions. In either direction there would be many, too many, stalled trains.
I prefer to call it the NY&LB and not the NJCL. I presume one or more test mu trains were run using the information I received at the time. I did not know this was not a regular service maatter, and of course I have to respect your statements, since you were there.
I did ride the mu service to Red Bank, when that was the extent of electrification on the NY&LB, and the method then was as I described.
Also, I realize the original M-2 Metro North-CDOT mu's can run under Sunnyside - Washington catenary, because they did so before the New Haven electrification was converted to 60Hz. They were placed in service while the 4400's, the "washboards," were still running. The New Haven Line mu's purchased since then probably not, because 60Hz transformer is less than half the size of a 25Hz transformer with the same power, voltage, and ciurrent. But anything on order now for the New Haven Line will have that capability because CDOT is serious about Penn Stations service.
And PC rand GG1's through to New Haven back then, too. I'm not sure it could be done today though
You are correct. On the 75th birthday of the New Haven RR, sometime in the 70's, a friendly engineer gave me a GG-1 cab ride from New Haven to Penn Station on a Boston - Washington Amtrak train. About a month or even less after the merger of the NYNH&H into PC, GG-1's took over from FL-9''s and EP-5's ("Jets") between NY and NH on all Boston trains, which were moved from GCT to Penn. And in the summer of 1972 a fan trip was run using PRR M-54 mu's to New Haven. That trip saw them going to New Canaan, as well, probably the only time.
None of this equipment could operate east of Harold Tower, near Sunnyside Yard, today. Their transformers are designed only for 25Hz operation and would burn up with the higher frequency, the laminations would get very hot. If the power reached the traction motors, the effect would also be seen there.
The FL-9's were quickly moved to the Brewster commuter service, a few to the Poughkeepsie service, and a few kept on commuter and Hartford trains out of GCT. The Jets were tried in frieght service in New Jersey and some survived for a while there.
I like your thinking Dave:"I prefer to call it the NY&LB and not the NJCL". I prefer that along with the Pennsy Main, the Morristown side or M&E, and the Boonton Line or Steam train. It was the Jersey Central and the Erie (if not Wearie). And the West Shore. If it wernt dem, it wernt a commuter train!
I am also jealous. I never got a cab ride in a GG1...I just loved 'em.
Arrow IIIs MUST come to a COMPLETE STOP before changing voltage. The switch is located UNDER the carbody, so the crew must stop the train, get off the train, and flip the switch. ALPs have the capability to change automatically on the fly. That is why they are used on MidTown Direct trains and Long Branch-NYP trains.
Now the reason for the different voltages (one is 11,000KV and the other is 25,000KV; don't remember which is which). A few years back (don't remember exactly when it was) Amtrak was planning on changing the voltage on their catenary. Anticipating this, NJT jumped the gun and upgraded theirs to the proposed Amtrak voltage. However, Amtrak changed their mind and left the catenary as is. So now Transit and Amtrak have different voltages on their catenary.
I believe that most (if not all) Arrows have been moved to the NEC because of their speed. The quicker acceleration/deceleration allows for shorter schedules, which is more needed on the NEC than on the M&E Lines. All M&E and NJCL trains into Hoboken are now diesel-powered (in the event that New York is not accesable [i.e. the tunnels are blocked (like on Tuesday) or Portal gets stuck open AGAIN!(like on Wednesday)], trains will be rerouted to Hoboken, with connections to PATH.)
I do not know of the Arrow IVs will have the capability to change on the fly. Likewise, I don't know if the new dual modes will be able to switch from diesel to electric (or vice-versa) on the fly; they will most likely be able to handle the voltage change.
My Model Railroad: Tri State RailMy Photos on Flickr: FlickrMy Videos on Youtube: YoutubeMy Photos on RRPA: RR Picture Archives
ns3010A few years back (don't remember exactly when it was) Amtrak was planning on changing the voltage on their catenary. Anticipating this, NJT jumped the gun and upgraded theirs to the proposed Amtrak voltage. However, Amtrak changed their mind and left the catenary as is. So now Transit and Amtrak have different voltages on their catenary
Actually AMTRAK did not change their mind. The politicians did. For reasons I do not remember the budget proposal to change AMTRAK died in congress and has never been proposed again. One big problem is SEPTA AND I'LL COVER THAT IN A FUTURE THREAD. Fortunately NJ Transit went ahead and built for 25Kv 60 Hz and the conversion of NY&LB and M&E to that power will be fairly simple.
daveklepperThe trains may be locomotive -hauled now, but the earlier Manhattan Direct trains were not locomotive hauled but were mu's, and they could operate both om Amtrak;s 11,000 25Hz and NJT's 12,500 60Hz. I now remember that the report was THEY DID NOT STOP BUT INSTEAD LOWERED ALL PANTOGRAPHS WHEN THE FIRST CAR REACHED THE NEUTRAL ZONE AND THEN RAISED ALL PANTOGRAPHS WHEN THE LAST CAR LEFT THE NEUTRAL ZONE.
The pre-2003 spec instr don't mention any voltage change on the NY&LB-- they just say 12kV all the way to Long Branch. But trains probably did switch from 25 Hz to 60 Hz at MP 7.3, where they now also switch to 25 kV.
So-- did NY&LB MU trains always have to lower all pantographs and coast thru the gap at MP 7.3, just because of a frequency change?
ns3010 I believe that most (if not all) Arrows have been moved to the NEC because of their speed. The quicker acceleration/deceleration allows for shorter schedules, which is more needed on the NEC than on the M&E Lines. All M&E and NJCL trains into Hoboken are now diesel-powered (in the event that New York is not accesable [i.e. the tunnels are blocked (like on Tuesday) or Portal gets stuck open AGAIN!(like on Wednesday)], trains will be rerouted to Hoboken, with connections to PATH.)
That's the very reason the Arrows should be on the M&E instead: grades and curves, stations on grades and curves, closely spaced stations need the MU's for acceleration and deceleration. Locomotive hauled trains on the M&E have caused longer schedules to be implimented. The Corridor, the relatively flat line with few major curves, higher speed limits, and longer distances between station stops do not hamper locomotive hauled trains' schedules like they do on the hills. NJCL has similar problems of rolling and curving right of way and some closer spaced stations. No, the MU's should be on the M&E at least.
Midtown Direct is a marketing term coined by NJT for trains from the former Lackawanna lines which go to NYP
The trains I rode going to Red Bank and back lowered their pantographs going through the change. Whether this practice continued or was a safety measure at the start, I would not know. I would think that simply shutting off power and coasting might be just as safe. I had assumed the NJT electrification was 12.500 and not 25,000, and I was mistaken. So has the NY&LB electrification been changed from 12,500 to 25,000? Or does NJT have different electrifications on "their" two electrified lines?
I am reading on other fourms that NJT did indeed allow MU's to coast through a phase gap on the NY&LB and having to lower the pans on longer trains but not when there was a change of power east of Matawan because the power change switch is a manual switch on the outside of each car which meant the train crew had to make the switch. As of now there is the Amtrak 60 cycle system on the Corridor and to Matawan on the NY&LB but the 25 cycle system west of Matawan to Long Branch and on the former Lackawanna lines.
henry6 As of now there is the Amtrak 60 cycle system on the Corridor and to Matawan on the NY&LB but the 25 cycle system west of Matawan to Long Branch and on the former Lackawanna lines.
daveklepperSo has the NY&LB electrification been changed from 12,500 to 25,000?
A term misinterpreted here has been "phase gap". It it the neutral or dead gap between two similarly powered sections of cat and not the glide space between the two different power voltage systems.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.