CNW Commuter Questions

[schlimm]

HarveyK400

Class A Atlantic's were retired before WWII; and were not well suited for suburban service with 81" drivers.

 

The Atlantic's seen in suburban service were Class D's, even in the early 1950's.   A lot of trains used to "airhose" into Madison Street Terminal from the coach yard even in the steam era, but this was not push-pull service.

[HarveyK400]

Not in suburban service; but Pullman-Standard built lightweight streamlined cars with stainless steel fluted panels; and Katy, Frisco, Chessie, Nickel Plate, the Rock, and maybe others got some.  Water collected and rusted out the side sheets and framing.  The Rock stripped and rebuilt a few of its cars with smooth stainless side sheets for use on the Quad Cities and Peoria Rockets.

[HarveyK400]

The Class E was actually the heavier locomotive with 75" drivers.  The E-1 class was lighter, had 69" drivers, and probably used on the many shorter locals.  Class A Atlantic's were retired before WWII; and were not well suited for suburban service with 81" drivers.  I've seen photos of Class R ten-wheelers, possibly into the Fifties, on suburban trains too.

[HarveyK400]

No train-lined control cab cars were operated before the push-pull gallery cars.  However, push-pull operations were practiced with an air signal line from an 80' suburban coach vestibule "cab" with a rh end window, air-operated wiper, and detachable headlight on the end gate - drafty! 

In the late Fifties, an afternoon turn from Elmhurst on the West Line (Geneva Sub), dieselized at the time, would push all the way back to the Madison Street Terminal at track speed, 70 mph.  This section of track had wayside signals for use by C&NW, PRR, and B&O transfers without ATC.  I watched this apparent deadhead move pass 5th Av Maywood while I waited for a bus on the way home from high school.  It's possible this was done on other lines as well; but I don't know of any others specifically.  Only a few of the 80' cars seemed to be outfitted for this type of operation. 

I saw a dramatic movie of a flying switch at Highland Park to change ends - the manual crossover is still there; but the steam locomotive led the train back to Chicago running backwards.  Such a move would have been a candidate for push-pull operation before the Push-Pulls.

[schlimm]

 Also a few Class D Atlantic's.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

The Butler

Did the CNW use a certain class of steam locomotive for commuter (suburban) service?   

Class E Pacifics were standard passenger power on most of C&NW and this included the suburban service.

[The Butler]

Did the CNW use a certain class of steam locomotive for commuter (suburban) service?   

[condi]

LAST  YEAR AT THE CROSSING OF LAFOX RD AND THE GENEVA SUB UP i SEAM TO, REMBER SEEING 15 OF SO OF THE SMOOOTH SIDE CARS COMING BACK TO CHICAGO.

I HAVE SEEN SEVERAL ON THE UP WEST LINE

CONRAD

 

[schlimm]

The Butler

Was 1959 when diesels took over commuter service or were they in place before the push/pull service?  

 

CNW fully dieselized in 1956 with a hodge-podge of GP 7's and 9's, SD 7's, FM's, and even a few RS 3's.  But when push-pull came in, F7's were converted from freight and HEP was added for heating and A/C.  Later (can't say when - late 60's?) E units were used.

[The Butler]

Thanks   Was 1959 when diesels took over commuter service or were they in place before the push/pull service?  

[schlimm]

The Butler

Was there push/pull commuter service on the CNW before the gallery cars?   

 

As best as I can recall, the first gallery cars on the C&NW were from St Louis Car Co. in 1953-54.  This was followed by an order from Pullman-Standard.  Push/pull operations did not began until 1959.  There was no push-pull operation using the older, single-level commuter cars.  There is a picture of a steam hauled commuter train with one gallery car in the consist in 1955 in Lloyd Keyser's book..

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

The Butler

Was there push/pull commuter service on the CNW before the gallery cars?   

No push/pulls operated prior to the bi-levels. In fact, push-pulls were not started on C&NW until about 1958 or 1959, the first bi-levels (1-16) were not equipped for HEP or push-pull as built.

[wjstix]

Falcon48

The Butler

So, all stainless steel cars had fluted or corragated sides?

  I'm not sure that ALL stainless steel cars have (or had) fluted or corrugated sides.  But all of the stainless steel cars used in Chicago area commuter service do.

AFAIK all stainless steel passenger cars had fluted or corrugated sides. It can get confusing because a few railroads that had fluted stainless steel cars also had some smooth sided cars that they painted silver to match the stainless steel cars (sometimes even using pinstriping or "shadow striping" to match the corrugations of the stainless steel cars) but as they weathered it became pretty easy to tell the real stainless steel from the painted ones.

[The Butler]

Was there push/pull commuter service on the CNW before the gallery cars?   

[HarveyK400]

Since 1959 when I started riding, the bar cars on the Northwest Line were open to anyone for the price of a drink.  This goes back to the heavyweight cars that were replaced by lightweight ex-City cafe-lounge cars converted to HEP a short time later as the suburban fleet was converted to push-pull.  One car ran to Williams Bay and subsequently cut back to McHenry under the RTA; the other car ran to Harvard.  These cars were replaced by gallery cars before being repainted for the RTA.

Now it seemed to me that the first lightweight bar cars were the 7900-series lounge-barbershop cars with 3 small windows; but I have no photos.  For many years the 7800-series cafe-lounges with 4 small windows were used.  Except for the service and storage room, the kitchen area was stripped and converted to a stand-up bar.  The original Heywood-Wakefied chairs and drink stands were used in the lounge area.  Eventually these cars were refurbished for the remaining North Line subscription/charter car.

To my knowledge and observations, only one Chicago-Kenosha train ran with charter cars.  Single-level 400 coaches and parlors were used; and there may have been as many as four in the Sixties.  Depending on the car's members, cars were fitted with a mix of reclining double seats, rotating and reclining parlor seats, and tables and chairs for cards. 

For a while, the morning Harvard train flipped to Highland Park or Waukegan to provide bar service one way. 

[Bob-Fryml]

I had a summer job in a professional photo finishing lab during the summer of 1968 and commuted regularly between a northwest suburb and downtown Chicago.  At that time the Geneva Subdivison (West Line) commuter trains did not have any subscription cars.  The Harvard Subdivision (Northwest Line) supported one that operated between Chicago and Lake Geneva / Williams Bay, Wisc.  But the Kenosha Subdivision (North Line) ... well ... that was a whole 'nother story.

The Kenosha Sub. had maybe six subscription cars, four of which ran coupled together on one pair of schedules.  It was either one other pair of schedules supporting two cars each or two other pairs of schedules supporting one car each that hauled the rest of the equipment.  These cars were in addition to the numerous bi-level and single level equipped streamliners that ran between Chicago and Milwaukee, or Green Bay, or Ashland/Ishpeming.

[MILW205]

HarveyK400

The single-level charter car, xCNW (7901 or 7902?) barbershop-lounge for Streamliner service, is still in service on #326 & #341.

Thanks for the tip on the train numbers.

I witnessed #326 from a distance this morning.  Indeed, the single-level car was in the consist.  Since the weather was not terribly clear, I didn't get a particularly good view...but it appeared that it was still in the RTA grey paint with brown stripe scheme.   

[Falcon48]

al-in-chgo

HarveyK400

(from prior post):

• North Line scheduling has been a long series of band-aid adjustments over the years.  One of the larger stations, Wilmette, has an hour gap in service between the 3:37 and 4:35.  No one on the North Western side seems to have any idea what the real market is or what service means. 
  

That's because there is no meaningful "North Western side" anymore -- it has been all UP since 1995.  - a.s.

 

  UP does not determine commuter train scheduling on any of its commuter lines.  Neither did C&NW in its later years.  The schedules are determined solely by METRA.  UP simply runs the trains for METRA under a purchase of service agreement, just like C&NW did after RTA began funding the service.

[al-in-chgo]

HarveyK400

(from prior post):

• North Line scheduling has been a long series of band-aid adjustments over the years.  One of the larger stations, Wilmette, has an hour gap in service between the 3:37 and 4:35.  No one on the North Western side seems to have any idea what the real market is or what service means. 
  

That's because there is no meaningful "North Western side" anymore -- it has been all UP since 1995.  - a.s.

 

[HarveyK400]

The single-level charter car, xCNW (7901 or 7902?) barbershop-lounge for Streamliner service, is still in service on #326 & #341.

My understanding is a half-dozen recently rebuilt "smooth-side" (Pullman) gallery cars were returned, possibly from Virginia, and can be seen singly on various trains.  This was done to add fleet capacity to relieve crowding; but not necessarily for the trains to which they are assigned.

There was talk by Metra of discontinuing the service due to demand for capacity on trains.

• Platform tracks were cut back one car length when the Ogilvie Center was built, limiting most trains on the east side tracks, for North Line trains to Kenosha, to seven cars or less.  The "Banker's Special" used to use the longer center tracks typically assigned to Northwest Line trains to Harvard; but that has been "simplified" with the new interlocking configuration.
• Station stops could be adjusted to keep demand within seating capacity limited in part by fleet size and in part by terminal track length without obliging the termination of the charter car; after all, it does add ~30 very pricey seats. 
  
• North Line scheduling has been a long series of band-aid adjustments over the years.  One of the larger stations, Wilmette, has an hour gap in service between the 3:37 and 4:35.  No one on the North Western side seems to have any idea what the real market is or what service means. 
  

[MILW205]

It was a bi-level in Metra silver paint with blue and red stripes.

I've seen the single-level ones you are talking about, but similar to you, it's been a few years (to the point that the last time I saw one, it was in RTA light grey paint with a brown stripe; I've never seen one in Metra colors).

I am under the impression that Metra had quit running the members only cars, perhaps someone else knows something definitive?

[Falcon48]

MILW205

The Butler

 

Thanks, guys.  Was the CNW the only route with smooth sided cars?  I know today the NW Line runs fluted side cars.

The Butler, you're absolutely correct that the UP lines run fluted side cars these days.   However, FWIW, yesterday morning on the UP-N line I witnessed a single smooth-sided coach tucked in immediately behind the engine in an otherwise all fluted-side consist.

It was nice to have a little variety.

Separately, here's a pic of an F in the blue/red Metra colors:

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=165359&nseq=1

  Was the smooth sided coach you say a single level car or a bi-level?  For many years, C&NW and Metra ran special "members only" cars on the North line, inbound in the morning and outbound at night, which were old single level intercity cars refitted to be compatible with commuter trains.  Last I heard (which was a couple of years ago), there was still one of these left.

[MILW205]

The Butler

 

Thanks, guys.  Was the CNW the only route with smooth sided cars?  I know today the NW Line runs fluted side cars.

The Butler, you're absolutely correct that the UP lines run fluted side cars these days.   However, FWIW, yesterday morning on the UP-N line I witnessed a single smooth-sided coach tucked in immediately behind the engine in an otherwise all fluted-side consist.

It was nice to have a little variety.

Separately, here's a pic of an F in the blue/red Metra colors:

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=165359&nseq=1

[wjstix]

Thanks James for the linkee, I finally figured out how to post pics here!!

[The Butler]

Oops, that's what I was thinking since we are talking about Chicago commuter service!

[Falcon48]

The Butler

So, all stainless steel cars had fluted or corragated sides?

  I'm not sure that ALL stainless steel cars have (or had) fluted or corrugated sides.  But all of the stainless steel cars used in Chicago area commuter service do.

[The Butler]

So, all stainless steel cars had fluted or corragated sides?

[jrbernier]

  The Rock Island bought Budd stainless steel bi-levels first, then bought P-S smooth side bi-levels painted in the 'Chicago Red' paint scheme with the yellow stripe.  Here is the roster info:

• 110-114   Budd 'cab' cars(1965)
• 140-154   Budd 'coaches'(1965)
• 115-119   P-S 'cab' cars(1970)
• 155-159   P-S 'coaches'(1970)

Jim

[Falcon48]

al-in-chgo

The Butler

 

Thanks, guys.  Was the CNW the only route with smooth sided cars?  I know today the NW Line runs fluted side cars.

Wasn't the Rock Island commuter fleet smooth-sided?   -  a.s.

 

  The IC (now Metra) "Highliners" were (and are) smooth sided.

[The Butler]

Here are the photo posting instructions, just click: 

http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/t/118690.aspx