CNW Commuter Questions

[schlimm]

Pretty ugly, all right!!

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1296065

The way it should be in green and yellow!

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/cnw/cnw-commuter2.jpg

 

[billio]

Mike O

RTA purchased C&NW commuter cars sometime in late 1970's/early 1980's, repainted them in a terrible color scheme which I cannot even discribe. Cars retained by Metra were then painted in the much better blue/silver Metra colors.

To amplify, RTA (this was before METRA was even a gleam in Phil Pagano's eye) consumated a purchase-of-service agreement with CNW in 1977.  Under the agreement, RTA "bought" the Chicago and NorthWestern Transportation Company's commuter rail line of business.  RTA assumed title to all assets "used and useful" in CNW commuter service, including rolling stock, locomotives (a bunch of aging F7s and E8s), and CNW's car shop and locomotive shop at M19A.  As I understood it, CNW would continue to operate the service, collect --and pocket -- the fares.  The operating deficit would be made up by RTA.  New equipment (to replace obsolete equipment and provice for any service expansion) is strictly up to RTA and its successors (read METRA).  This arrangement, to my admittedly limited knowledge, continues to this day, even though the equipment is now owned by METRA and CNW has been bought out by Union Pacific. 

Being a self-admitted slob of questionable taste, I will refrain from commenting here on either the effectiveness or the asthetics of the color scheme.  (Purists may note that I have attempted to mirror RTA's pumpkin orange).

[Mike O]

The RTA color scheme was bland and awful. Especially since the C&NW green-and-yellow was fantastic and the Metra blue-and-silver is excellent.

[artpeterson]

Hi - After the RTA purchase, the ex-CNW cars and locomotives had a small sticker applied (dark brown background with orange lettering IIRC) that indicated they were owned by the RTA.  The sticker certainly stood out on the yellow CNW paint!  As newer cars were delivered, the ex-RI Pullman gallery cars were transferred to the former CNW lines.  The RTA scheme on the ex-CNW and RI cars was a silver mist background at one time, with a light gray being used later on.  Hope this helps!  Art

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

The original RTA colors used on the ex-C&NW bi-levels wasn't that bad:  silver gray body, brown upper window belt, orange lower window belt and brown lettering and numbering.

[Mike O]

RTA purchased C&NW commuter cars sometime in late 1970's/early 1980's, repainted them in a terrible color scheme which I cannot even discribe. Cars retained by Metra were then painted in the much better blue/silver Metra colors.

[HarveyK400]

The Butler

I know C&NW crews kept operating the trains after the RTA/METRA take over.  I remember the RTA and METRA painted equipment being fazed in to use.  Who owned the C&NW painted equipment in the late 1970's and in to the 1980's? 

 

I've got no hard information; but I recall the C&NW cars were owned in trust by Northern Trust Bank and had a plate to that effect on  the car..

[The Butler]

I know C&NW crews kept operating the trains after the RTA/METRA take over.  I remember the RTA and METRA painted equipment being fazed in to use.  Who owned the C&NW painted equipment in the late 1970's and in to the 1980's? 

[clarkfork]

You are most welcome.

[The Butler]

"clarkfork," that makes sense to me.  For years, I have wondered why the red lights on the front of locomotives (not just C&NW).  Your answer is the most reasonable explanation I have heard.  Thank you for taking the time.

[clarkfork]

schlimm:

 

Both the reversible white/red Mars lights (named for the owner of the Mars company that made the candy bar of the same name - he allowed the prototype to be machined in the candy plant and financed its manufacture) and the fixed red lights on steam and diesel, preceded push-pull by many years.  It was on the front to signal an emergency braking.

I am sorry, I still do not understand, why on the front? 

James

 

This is hard to explain but I will give it a try.  Most major derailments create a mess spread out 30 to 50 feet out from the track.  On single track this does not create any special problems, other than the problems of clearing the wreckage itself.  However on double track this derailment wreckage does create an additional hazard, and that is that another train from the opposite direction could approach at speed and collide with the mess of derailed cars and cause a second derailment, not to mention what amounts to a head on collision for the crew of the second train.  The red "mars" light was meant to give instant warning to the crew of the approaching second train that the first train on the adjacent track had gone into emergency braking, which could have been caused be a derailment blocking both tracks (as well as other things.)  Seeing the red "mars" the crew of the second approaching train would stop as fast as they could to avoid colliding with any derailed cars obstructing their track.  These two train derailments don't happen very often, but when they do, they can be serious.  Some years ago in Selby, UK, a driver of a Land Rover lost control at an overpass and ended up on the East Coast Main Line.  As luck would have it a high speed passenger train collided with the truck and derailed blocking the adjacent track just as a freight train approached and derailed when it collided with what was left of the passenger train. Ten people lost their lives.  Going into emergency on double track is always an emergency and a fast response on the part of the train crew is essential.  This situation is one of few instances where Rule 99 flagging is still required.  The train crew should also send an emergency radio message to warn all approaching trains and ask the dispatcher to block traffic on adjacent tracks. 

[HarveyK400]

Very nice photos - both locomotives have the red Mars light.  BTW, the 1st diesel (in bottom photo) looks like an FM Erie-built.  Train could be the Peninsula 400 sb at Racine.

schlimm

 In days gone by, E (1)614 on an Illini rail Club Special in 1956

 

E2B 2912 rescuing dead diesels in 1952.

 

 

[schlimm]

 In days gone by, E (1)614 on an Illini rail Club Special in 1956

 

E2B 2912 rescuing dead diesels in 1952.

 

[HarveyK400]

I didn't see the red light lit on push-pulls either; but in the 1950's I saw oscillating red Mars lights on the rear of both suburbans (occasionally) and 400's.  Rules and use must have changed along the way.

The Butler

I do not recall seeing the red light lit on the rear of a C&NW commuter train.  I remember the flashing yellow light atop cab cars and engines, though.

 

[The Butler]

schlimm

Both the reversible white/red Mars lights (named for the owner of the Mars company that made the candy bar of the same name - he allowed the prototype to be machined in the candy plant and financed its manufacture) and the fixed red lights on steam and diesel, preceded push-pull by many years.  It was on the front to signal an emergency braking.

I am sorry, I still do not understand, why on the front? 

[The Butler]

HarveyK400

snip...

The reason the red light is on the front of a cab car is that it is at the rear of the train outbound.

...snip

I do not recall seeing the red light lit on the rear of a C&NW commuter train.  I remember the flashing yellow light atop cab cars and engines, though.

[schlimm]

The Butler

Thanks, folks.  So it is a brake light (an emergency brake light), why would it be on the front?  It doesn't seem to have been used in the push/pull service, right?

 

Both the reversible white/red Mars lights (named for the owner of the Mars company that made the candy bar of the same name - he allowed the prototype to be machined in the candy plant and financed its manufacture) and the fixed red lights on steam and diesel, preceded push-pull by many years.  It was on the front to signal an emergency braking.

[HarveyK400]

The C&NW Pullman push-pull gallery cars had a single red light (lens) under the twin beam headlight.  I never saw one in use.  A slide of mine shows the first order of CMStP&P Budd gallery cars with a similar red light trained with a Hiawatha coach and F9A while the subsequent MTD order did not.  My photos also show Metra M-K, Amerail, and N-S cab control cars have third light with a clear lens under the twin beam headlight; but the light seems to "float" in a way that suggests it gyrates and may have a movable red lens.

The reason the red light is on the front of a cab car is that it is at the rear of the train outbound.

The Butler

Thanks, folks.  So it is a brake light (an emergency brake light), why would it be on the front?  It doesn't seem to have been used in the push/pull service, right?

 

[The Butler]

Thanks, folks.  So it is a brake light (an emergency brake light), why would it be on the front?  It doesn't seem to have been used in the push/pull service, right?

[schlimm]

Harvey:  I stand corrected.  I was just looking through Vols.1 and 2 of the CNW in Color (these are great reference books, BTW).  The passenger E units had a Mars light that was normally white, but flipped around 180 degrees in an emergency stop to display the red part. Steam engines had the red-only unit mounted on top of the smokebox, but not steamers were equipped.  Road switchers were inconsistent also, some have a red-only light on each end, some the light mounted on top of the hood, some without.

[HarveyK400]

schlimm

The Butler

What is with the red light above the headlights on said GP9?

 

A fairly short-lived emergency signal light the CNW liked.  IIRC, some of the E-type Pacifics sported them also near the end of steam.

Short-lived?  The red signal light was installed on most early earlier steam, E's, J's & H's, as well as early diesels.  The exception seemed to be diesel passenger units with a white (Mars) signal light.  Correct me if I'm wrong; but it seems that the GP30's were the first freight units that didn't have the red signal light.  That would make it about three decades.

[schlimm]

The Butler

What is with the red light above the headlights on said GP9?

 

A fairly short-lived emergency signal light the CNW liked.  IIRC, some of the E-type Pacifics sported them also near the end of steam.

[Bob-Fryml]

For a few winters after the 1968 merger with the Chicago Great Western, the first morning commuter train out of Williams Bay / Lake Geneva, Wisc. ran with an A+B F-unit set coupled to the east end of the train.  The idea here was to have the heavier weight locomotives bust through snowdrifts and impacted road crossing flangeways rather than have a cab car do it.  The B-unit was painted passenger colors, but it retained a "CGW" reporting mark. 

As to whether or not the B-unit had an auxiliary generator to supply the coaches with electric power, that I don't know.  But what I used to call the first section of "The Lake Geneva 400" - that was the only C.& N.W. suburban train of that era that I ever saw which ran with 2-units.

 

[HarveyK400]

CSSHEGEWISCH

The auxiliary generator on GP's on B&M, CNJ and C&NW was strictly to provide power for lighting on suburban coaches since the coaches did not have their own generator/battery sets.  A steam generator was still needed to provide heat.  CNJ steam locomotives in the suburban pool also had similar auxiliary generators.

 

Steam locomotives in passenger service used steam turbo-generators, often mounted on the fireman's side over the firebox.  In some cases, a separate high-capacity steam generator for train heat would put in a head-end car, such as a dormitory or baggage car to avoid sapping tractive power, and to free up locomotive assignment. 

Early UP Streamliners may have used a diesel generator set in a head-end car, such as a dormitory or baggage car.  Most long-distance passenger equipment had individual gen-sets under the floor such as the propane-fueled Waukesha "Enginator."

[The Butler]

Thanks, that explains how it fits on the rear platform of the Geep.  What is with the red light above the headlights on said GP9?

[HarveyK400]

In the broadest sense, the auxilliary generating equipment is HEP; but it was low-voltage, low-wattage DC only for train lighting.  The push-pull HEP, in the commonly understood sense, was 375kW (F-7) or 500kW (E-8 & F-40), 440-V AC for train lighting, door and now lift operation, HVAC including radiant heat coils in the floor, battery charging, and other electronics.

[The Butler]

Thanks!

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

The auxiliary generator on GP's on B&M, CNJ and C&NW was strictly to provide power for lighting on suburban coaches since the coaches did not have their own generator/battery sets.  A steam generator was still needed to provide heat.  CNJ steam locomotives in the suburban pool also had similar auxiliary generators.

[The Butler]

HarveyK400

The Butler

Thanks, folks!  So, am I right in surmising that this photo, taken in 1961, (I wish I could find a link to it!) shows five steam gallery cars because of the 60' car on the rear of the train?

 

You're right; but the 60' car was just one clue - the other being the geep.  No C&NW geeps were fitted for HEP and push-pull service.

Wait, the blurb said, "The auxiliary generating equipment for Suburban service was housed in an extra squared-off enclosure on the rear platform."  Is this not HEP?  Or do you mean, HEP and push-pull service, one not the other and not both?