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CNW Commuter Questions

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CNW Commuter Questions
Posted by The Butler on Thursday, November 6, 2008 5:27 PM

In 1980 my family moved to the Northwest side of Chicago.  From my bedroom window, I could see CNW commuter trains cross Pulaski Ave. just East of the Irving Park station.  I believe this is the Northwest Line.  I remember seeing, once maybe twice, a light blue RTA EMD covered wagon.  My father never saw it.  He did see the RTA F40's painted that color.  Within a year we moved to Mount Prospect, Ill.  All the time I spent waiting at the station, there, for my mom, I saw CNW E units in green and yellow or the F40's.

The question is, does my childhood memory serve me correctly?  If it does, which locos got the blue paint?

James


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Posted by HarveyK400 on Friday, November 7, 2008 11:48 AM

The locomotives you saw were C&NW E8s repainted in RTA blue and brown similar to the then-new F40s.

I have a few of photos; but can't figure out how to paste them into this message. 

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Posted by artpeterson on Friday, November 7, 2008 1:35 PM

You're correct about it being the NW Line.  Es and Fs in CNW colors ran there, alongside the Metra F40PHs.  Some of the Es got repainted into the RTA light blue, brown and orange scheme and a couple of the Es (514 among them) also made it into the Metra dark blue and red.  One of those was used on the Milwaukee district for a while, BTW (515, I think....).  A couple of ex-CNW Fs made into the dark blue and red scheme, but normally were only used on work trains by that time.  Art

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Posted by The Butler on Saturday, November 8, 2008 8:59 AM

 Bow

Thanks, guys.  Was the CNW the only route with smooth sided cars?  I know today the NW Line runs fluted side cars.

James


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Posted by al-in-chgo on Saturday, November 8, 2008 9:00 PM

The Butler

 Bow

Thanks, guys.  Was the CNW the only route with smooth sided cars?  I know today the NW Line runs fluted side cars.

Wasn't the Rock Island commuter fleet smooth-sided?   -  a.s.

 

al-in-chgo
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Posted by cbq9911a on Saturday, November 8, 2008 9:54 PM

 The two ex C&NW F units are now at the Illinois Railway Museum; one of them is now in C&NW yellow and green.

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Posted by The Butler on Saturday, November 8, 2008 11:15 PM

 

al-in-chgo

The Butler

 Bow

Thanks, guys.  Was the CNW the only route with smooth sided cars?  I know today the NW Line runs fluted side cars.

Wasn't the Rock Island commuter fleet smooth-sided?   -  a.s.

 

A.S., I was thinking gallery cars. Did the Rock have those?

James


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Posted by al-in-chgo on Saturday, November 8, 2008 11:31 PM

The Butler

 

al-in-chgo

The Butler

 Bow

Thanks, guys.  Was the CNW the only route with smooth sided cars?  I know today the NW Line runs fluted side cars.

Wasn't the Rock Island commuter fleet smooth-sided?   -  a.s.

 

A.S., I was thinking gallery cars. Did the Rock have those?

IIRC from reading these boards, the Rock Island got bilevel gallery style cars even before CNW. This would be around 1954.  -  al

 

al-in-chgo
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Posted by HarveyK400 on Saturday, November 8, 2008 11:42 PM

Rock Island had about 20 smooth-sided Pullman gallery cars that may have been a follow-up to either a C&NW or SP (San Francisco) order. 

Bill Vandervoort's Chicago Transit & Railfan site used to have current and historical equipment rosters.  Sadly, these appear to have fallen victim to the new and limited web host.

(Can someone tell me how to post a photo?  The message toolbar has icons for "insert/edit image" and "content selector."  Is one of these part of the process?)

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Posted by The Butler on Sunday, November 9, 2008 2:44 AM

Here are the photo posting instructions, just click: 

http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/t/118690.aspx 

James


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Posted by Falcon48 on Monday, December 22, 2008 11:27 AM

al-in-chgo

The Butler

 Bow

Thanks, guys.  Was the CNW the only route with smooth sided cars?  I know today the NW Line runs fluted side cars.

Wasn't the Rock Island commuter fleet smooth-sided?   -  a.s.

 

  The IC (now Metra) "Highliners" were (and are) smooth sided.
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Posted by jrbernier on Thursday, December 25, 2008 12:48 PM

  The Rock Island bought Budd stainless steel bi-levels first, then bought P-S smooth side bi-levels painted in the 'Chicago Red' paint scheme with the yellow stripe.  Here is the roster info:

  • 110-114   Budd 'cab' cars(1965)
  • 140-154   Budd 'coaches'(1965)
  • 115-119   P-S 'cab' cars(1970)
  • 155-159   P-S 'coaches'(1970)

Jim

Modeling BNSF  and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin

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Posted by The Butler on Friday, December 26, 2008 1:39 PM

So, all stainless steel cars had fluted or corragated sides?

James


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Posted by Falcon48 on Friday, December 26, 2008 3:06 PM

The Butler

So, all stainless steel cars had fluted or corragated sides?

  I'm not sure that ALL stainless steel cars have (or had) fluted or corrugated sides.  But all of the stainless steel cars used in Chicago area commuter service do.
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Posted by The Butler on Saturday, December 27, 2008 10:16 AM

Oops, that's what I was thinking since we are talking about Chicago commuter service! Smile

James


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Posted by wjstix on Tuesday, December 30, 2008 12:42 PM

Thanks James for the linkee, I finally figured out how to post pics here!! Dunce

Stix
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Posted by MILW205 on Tuesday, December 30, 2008 1:26 PM

The Butler

 Bow

Thanks, guys.  Was the CNW the only route with smooth sided cars?  I know today the NW Line runs fluted side cars.

The Butler, you're absolutely correct that the UP lines run fluted side cars these days.   However, FWIW, yesterday morning on the UP-N line I witnessed a single smooth-sided coach tucked in immediately behind the engine in an otherwise all fluted-side consist.

It was nice to have a little variety.

Separately, here's a pic of an F in the blue/red Metra colors:

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=165359&nseq=1

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Posted by Falcon48 on Tuesday, December 30, 2008 2:25 PM

MILW205

The Butler

 Bow

Thanks, guys.  Was the CNW the only route with smooth sided cars?  I know today the NW Line runs fluted side cars.

The Butler, you're absolutely correct that the UP lines run fluted side cars these days.   However, FWIW, yesterday morning on the UP-N line I witnessed a single smooth-sided coach tucked in immediately behind the engine in an otherwise all fluted-side consist.

It was nice to have a little variety.

Separately, here's a pic of an F in the blue/red Metra colors:

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=165359&nseq=1

  Was the smooth sided coach you say a single level car or a bi-level?  For many years, C&NW and Metra ran special "members only" cars on the North line, inbound in the morning and outbound at night, which were old single level intercity cars refitted to be compatible with commuter trains.  Last I heard (which was a couple of years ago), there was still one of these left.
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Posted by MILW205 on Friday, January 2, 2009 9:25 AM

It was a bi-level in Metra silver paint with blue and red stripes.

I've seen the single-level ones you are talking about, but similar to you, it's been a few years (to the point that the last time I saw one, it was in RTA light grey paint with a brown stripe; I've never seen one in Metra colors).

I am under the impression that Metra had quit running the members only cars, perhaps someone else knows something definitive?

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Posted by HarveyK400 on Friday, January 2, 2009 9:37 PM

The single-level charter car, xCNW (7901 or 7902?) barbershop-lounge for Streamliner service, is still in service on #326 & #341.

My understanding is a half-dozen recently rebuilt "smooth-side" (Pullman) gallery cars were returned, possibly from Virginia, and can be seen singly on various trains.  This was done to add fleet capacity to relieve crowding; but not necessarily for the trains to which they are assigned.

There was talk by Metra of discontinuing the service due to demand for capacity on trains.

  • Platform tracks were cut back one car length when the Ogilvie Center was built, limiting most trains on the east side tracks, for North Line trains to Kenosha, to seven cars or less.  The "Banker's Special" used to use the longer center tracks typically assigned to Northwest Line trains to Harvard; but that has been "simplified" with the new interlocking configuration.
  • Station stops could be adjusted to keep demand within seating capacity limited in part by fleet size and in part by terminal track length without obliging the termination of the charter car; after all, it does add ~30 very pricey seats. 
  • North Line scheduling has been a long series of band-aid adjustments over the years.  One of the larger stations, Wilmette, has an hour gap in service between the 3:37 and 4:35.  No one on the North Western side seems to have any idea what the real market is or what service means. 
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Posted by al-in-chgo on Friday, January 2, 2009 10:29 PM

HarveyK400

(from prior post):

  • North Line scheduling has been a long series of band-aid adjustments over the years.  One of the larger stations, Wilmette, has an hour gap in service between the 3:37 and 4:35.  No one on the North Western side seems to have any idea what the real market is or what service means. 

That's because there is no meaningful "North Western side" anymore -- it has been all UP since 1995.  - a.s.

 

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Posted by Falcon48 on Sunday, January 4, 2009 11:37 AM

al-in-chgo

HarveyK400

(from prior post):

  • North Line scheduling has been a long series of band-aid adjustments over the years.  One of the larger stations, Wilmette, has an hour gap in service between the 3:37 and 4:35.  No one on the North Western side seems to have any idea what the real market is or what service means. 

That's because there is no meaningful "North Western side" anymore -- it has been all UP since 1995.  - a.s.

 

  UP does not determine commuter train scheduling on any of its commuter lines.  Neither did C&NW in its later years.  The schedules are determined solely by METRA.  UP simply runs the trains for METRA under a purchase of service agreement, just like C&NW did after RTA began funding the service.
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Posted by MILW205 on Wednesday, January 7, 2009 9:10 AM

HarveyK400

The single-level charter car, xCNW (7901 or 7902?) barbershop-lounge for Streamliner service, is still in service on #326 & #341.

Thanks for the tip on the train numbers.

I witnessed #326 from a distance this morning.  Indeed, the single-level car was in the consist.  Since the weather was not terribly clear, I didn't get a particularly good view...but it appeared that it was still in the RTA grey paint with brown stripe scheme.   

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Posted by Bob-Fryml on Friday, January 30, 2009 1:25 PM

I had a summer job in a professional photo finishing lab during the summer of 1968 and commuted regularly between a northwest suburb and downtown Chicago.  At that time the Geneva Subdivison (West Line) commuter trains did not have any subscription cars.  The Harvard Subdivision (Northwest Line) supported one that operated between Chicago and Lake Geneva / Williams Bay, Wisc.  But the Kenosha Subdivision (North Line) ... well ... that was a whole 'nother story.

The Kenosha Sub. had maybe six subscription cars, four of which ran coupled together on one pair of schedules.  It was either one other pair of schedules supporting two cars each or two other pairs of schedules supporting one car each that hauled the rest of the equipment.  These cars were in addition to the numerous bi-level and single level equipped streamliners that ran between Chicago and Milwaukee, or Green Bay, or Ashland/Ishpeming.

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Posted by HarveyK400 on Friday, January 30, 2009 3:16 PM

Since 1959 when I started riding, the bar cars on the Northwest Line were open to anyone for the price of a drink.  This goes back to the heavyweight cars that were replaced by lightweight ex-City cafe-lounge cars converted to HEP a short time later as the suburban fleet was converted to push-pull.  One car ran to Williams Bay and subsequently cut back to McHenry under the RTA; the other car ran to Harvard.  These cars were replaced by gallery cars before being repainted for the RTA.

Now it seemed to me that the first lightweight bar cars were the 7900-series lounge-barbershop cars with 3 small windows; but I have no photos.  For many years the 7800-series cafe-lounges with 4 small windows were used.  Except for the service and storage room, the kitchen area was stripped and converted to a stand-up bar.  The original Heywood-Wakefied chairs and drink stands were used in the lounge area.  Eventually these cars were refurbished for the remaining North Line subscription/charter car.

To my knowledge and observations, only one Chicago-Kenosha train ran with charter cars.  Single-level 400 coaches and parlors were used; and there may have been as many as four in the Sixties.  Depending on the car's members, cars were fitted with a mix of reclining double seats, rotating and reclining parlor seats, and tables and chairs for cards. 

For a while, the morning Harvard train flipped to Highland Park or Waukegan to provide bar service one way. 

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Posted by The Butler on Wednesday, October 21, 2009 11:18 PM

Was there push/pull commuter service on the CNW before the gallery cars?   

James


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Posted by wjstix on Thursday, October 22, 2009 8:08 AM

Falcon48

The Butler

So, all stainless steel cars had fluted or corragated sides?

  I'm not sure that ALL stainless steel cars have (or had) fluted or corrugated sides.  But all of the stainless steel cars used in Chicago area commuter service do.

AFAIK all stainless steel passenger cars had fluted or corrugated sides. It can get confusing because a few railroads that had fluted stainless steel cars also had some smooth sided cars that they painted silver to match the stainless steel cars (sometimes even using pinstriping or "shadow striping" to match the corrugations of the stainless steel cars) but as they weathered it became pretty easy to tell the real stainless steel from the painted ones.

Stix
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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Thursday, October 22, 2009 10:19 AM

The Butler

Was there push/pull commuter service on the CNW before the gallery cars?   

No push/pulls operated prior to the bi-levels. In fact, push-pulls were not started on C&NW until about 1958 or 1959, the first bi-levels (1-16) were not equipped for HEP or push-pull as built.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by schlimm on Thursday, October 22, 2009 10:21 AM

The Butler

Was there push/pull commuter service on the CNW before the gallery cars?   

 

As best as I can recall, the first gallery cars on the C&NW were from St Louis Car Co. in 1953-54.  This was followed by an order from Pullman-Standard.  Push/pull operations did not began until 1959.  There was no push-pull operation using the older, single-level commuter cars.  There is a picture of a steam hauled commuter train with one gallery car in the consist in 1955 in Lloyd Keyser's book..

C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan

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Posted by The Butler on Thursday, October 22, 2009 10:50 AM

Thanks Thumbs Up  Was 1959 when diesels took over commuter service or were they in place before the push/pull service?  

James


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