B&M and CNJ also had GP7's similarly equipped for their suburban operations.
schlimmThe ButlerFrom the picture links provided by "schlimm," it looks like one of the 60' cars to me. This photograph was taken in 1961. I would guess that the 60' car had been converted to HEP.Harvey, it claims that GP9 #1712 was one of a group of five units (1711-1715) delivered in 1954 with steam generators. It then goes on to say, "The auxiliary generating equipment for Suburban service was housed in an extra squared-off enclosure on the rear platform.1. No. The CNW bought the 2nd order to completely retire all the old 60' and 80' cars in the late 50's. The old 60's and 80's were never converted to HEP.2. As Harvey said, the squared off box at the end of the long hood housed a generator (for lighting and AC on gallery cars).
The ButlerFrom the picture links provided by "schlimm," it looks like one of the 60' cars to me. This photograph was taken in 1961. I would guess that the 60' car had been converted to HEP.Harvey, it claims that GP9 #1712 was one of a group of five units (1711-1715) delivered in 1954 with steam generators. It then goes on to say, "The auxiliary generating equipment for Suburban service was housed in an extra squared-off enclosure on the rear platform.
From the picture links provided by "schlimm," it looks like one of the 60' cars to me. This photograph was taken in 1961. I would guess that the 60' car had been converted to HEP.
Harvey, it claims that GP9 #1712 was one of a group of five units (1711-1715) delivered in 1954 with steam generators. It then goes on to say, "The auxiliary generating equipment for Suburban service was housed in an extra squared-off enclosure on the rear platform.
2. As Harvey said, the squared off box at the end of the long hood housed a generator (for lighting and AC on gallery cars).
I said the generator was in short hood; but it was in fact the long hood (What was I thinking!). The trainline power may have been 64-v, not 32-v; but I have no definitive reference.
Actually, the push-pull HEP galleries from Pullman would have been at least the third order. The commuter cars may have been conditional on the acceptance of the "400 Bi-Levels." Two separate purchases for steam-heated galleries were made from St.Louis and Pullman.
The single level cars were running as late as 1962 while the earlier steam-heated galleries were being converted to HEP. I rode the 5:06 express to Des Plaines which at the time had 80-footers pulled by an E-7. Newer geeps had been reassigned to freight service; and passenger units were available from the many discontinuances including the "Twin Cities 400" and "Northwestern Limited."
Speaking of push-pull, I think I posted before witnessing an afternoon turn with single-level cars from Elmhurst, seemingly at track speed, through Maywood in the late 50's. The lead 80-footer had a window and wiper in the car end; and control was by air signals to the pushing diesel. An air whistle was attached to the brake hose. This may have been a practice with steam power as well.
Harvey
HarveyK400Actually, the push-pull HEP galleries from Pullman would have been at least the third order.
Harvey, you are quite correct and the 60's and 80's were running maybe even into 1963. There was a real hodge podge of motive power for commuter service: the usual GP 7's and 9's, but also some RS 3's and SD 7's or 9's. And who could forget the one-of-a-kind Baldwin unit with a baggage section that ran out on the Galena division to West Chicago and then out on the original G&CU line to Freeport?
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
HarveyK400Speaking of push-pull, I think I posted before witnessing an afternoon turn with single-level cars from Elmhurst, seemingly at track speed, through Maywood in the late 50's. The lead 80-footer had a window and wiper in the car end; and control was by air signals to the pushing diesel. An air whistle was attached to the brake hose. This may have been a practice with steam power as well.
I think that was a dead-head run from West Chicago. I have a dim memory of an E class Pacific doing that about 1954. I was pretty little, but it seemed weird at the time and I wondered why it ran through the Wheaton station!
I don't recall RS-3, or Baldwins in suburban service other than as EMD rebuilds. You forgot a couple of my favorite Baby TM's used on the Wisconsin Div.
Maybe there was a West Chicago turn too; but I saw the Elmhurst turn in the late 50's that continues with little change today, notwithstanding the push-pull galleries and F-40's.
Thanks, folks! So, am I right in surmising that this photo, taken in 1961, (I wish I could find a link to it!) shows five steam gallery cars because of the 60' car on the rear of the train?
James
Yes. I think I've seen that photo also. I also wish i could load a pic I have on my computer of that Baldwin passenger 1000hp diesel in Freeport. Not technically a commuter scoot; actually a branchline train with 2-3 60' cars in tow.
The ButlerThanks, folks! So, am I right in surmising that this photo, taken in 1961, (I wish I could find a link to it!) shows five steam gallery cars because of the 60' car on the rear of the train?
You're right; but the 60' car was just one clue - the other being the geep. No C&NW geeps were fitted for HEP and push-pull service.
HarveyK400The ButlerThanks, folks! So, am I right in surmising that this photo, taken in 1961, (I wish I could find a link to it!) shows five steam gallery cars because of the 60' car on the rear of the train? You're right; but the 60' car was just one clue - the other being the geep. No C&NW geeps were fitted for HEP and push-pull service.
The auxiliary generator on GP's on B&M, CNJ and C&NW was strictly to provide power for lighting on suburban coaches since the coaches did not have their own generator/battery sets. A steam generator was still needed to provide heat. CNJ steam locomotives in the suburban pool also had similar auxiliary generators.
Thanks!
In the broadest sense, the auxilliary generating equipment is HEP; but it was low-voltage, low-wattage DC only for train lighting. The push-pull HEP, in the commonly understood sense, was 375kW (F-7) or 500kW (E-8 & F-40), 440-V AC for train lighting, door and now lift operation, HVAC including radiant heat coils in the floor, battery charging, and other electronics.
Thanks, that explains how it fits on the rear platform of the Geep. What is with the red light above the headlights on said GP9?
CSSHEGEWISCHThe auxiliary generator on GP's on B&M, CNJ and C&NW was strictly to provide power for lighting on suburban coaches since the coaches did not have their own generator/battery sets. A steam generator was still needed to provide heat. CNJ steam locomotives in the suburban pool also had similar auxiliary generators.
Steam locomotives in passenger service used steam turbo-generators, often mounted on the fireman's side over the firebox. In some cases, a separate high-capacity steam generator for train heat would put in a head-end car, such as a dormitory or baggage car to avoid sapping tractive power, and to free up locomotive assignment.
Early UP Streamliners may have used a diesel generator set in a head-end car, such as a dormitory or baggage car. Most long-distance passenger equipment had individual gen-sets under the floor such as the propane-fueled Waukesha "Enginator."
For a few winters after the 1968 merger with the Chicago Great Western, the first morning commuter train out of Williams Bay / Lake Geneva, Wisc. ran with an A+B F-unit set coupled to the east end of the train. The idea here was to have the heavier weight locomotives bust through snowdrifts and impacted road crossing flangeways rather than have a cab car do it. The B-unit was painted passenger colors, but it retained a "CGW" reporting mark.
As to whether or not the B-unit had an auxiliary generator to supply the coaches with electric power, that I don't know. But what I used to call the first section of "The Lake Geneva 400" - that was the only C.& N.W. suburban train of that era that I ever saw which ran with 2-units.
The ButlerWhat is with the red light above the headlights on said GP9?
A fairly short-lived emergency signal light the CNW liked. IIRC, some of the E-type Pacifics sported them also near the end of steam.
schlimmThe ButlerWhat is with the red light above the headlights on said GP9? A fairly short-lived emergency signal light the CNW liked. IIRC, some of the E-type Pacifics sported them also near the end of steam.
Short-lived? The red signal light was installed on most early earlier steam, E's, J's & H's, as well as early diesels. The exception seemed to be diesel passenger units with a white (Mars) signal light. Correct me if I'm wrong; but it seems that the GP30's were the first freight units that didn't have the red signal light. That would make it about three decades.
Harvey: I stand corrected. I was just looking through Vols.1 and 2 of the CNW in Color (these are great reference books, BTW). The passenger E units had a Mars light that was normally white, but flipped around 180 degrees in an emergency stop to display the red part. Steam engines had the red-only unit mounted on top of the smokebox, but not steamers were equipped. Road switchers were inconsistent also, some have a red-only light on each end, some the light mounted on top of the hood, some without.
Thanks, folks. So it is a brake light (an emergency brake light), why would it be on the front? It doesn't seem to have been used in the push/pull service, right?
The C&NW Pullman push-pull gallery cars had a single red light (lens) under the twin beam headlight. I never saw one in use. A slide of mine shows the first order of CMStP&P Budd gallery cars with a similar red light trained with a Hiawatha coach and F9A while the subsequent MTD order did not. My photos also show Metra M-K, Amerail, and N-S cab control cars have third light with a clear lens under the twin beam headlight; but the light seems to "float" in a way that suggests it gyrates and may have a movable red lens.
The reason the red light is on the front of a cab car is that it is at the rear of the train outbound.
The ButlerThanks, folks. So it is a brake light (an emergency brake light), why would it be on the front? It doesn't seem to have been used in the push/pull service, right?
Both the reversible white/red Mars lights (named for the owner of the Mars company that made the candy bar of the same name - he allowed the prototype to be machined in the candy plant and financed its manufacture) and the fixed red lights on steam and diesel, preceded push-pull by many years. It was on the front to signal an emergency braking.
HarveyK400snip...The reason the red light is on the front of a cab car is that it is at the rear of the train outbound. ...snip
snip...
...snip
schlimmBoth the reversible white/red Mars lights (named for the owner of the Mars company that made the candy bar of the same name - he allowed the prototype to be machined in the candy plant and financed its manufacture) and the fixed red lights on steam and diesel, preceded push-pull by many years. It was on the front to signal an emergency braking.
I didn't see the red light lit on push-pulls either; but in the 1950's I saw oscillating red Mars lights on the rear of both suburbans (occasionally) and 400's. Rules and use must have changed along the way.
The ButlerI do not recall seeing the red light lit on the rear of a C&NW commuter train. I remember the flashing yellow light atop cab cars and engines, though.
In days gone by, E (1)614 on an Illini rail Club Special in 1956
E2B 2912 rescuing dead diesels in 1952.
Very nice photos - both locomotives have the red Mars light. BTW, the 1st diesel (in bottom photo) looks like an FM Erie-built. Train could be the Peninsula 400 sb at Racine.
schlimm In days gone by, E (1)614 on an Illini rail Club Special in 1956 E2B 2912 rescuing dead diesels in 1952.
schlimm: Both the reversible white/red Mars lights (named for the owner of the Mars company that made the candy bar of the same name - he allowed the prototype to be machined in the candy plant and financed its manufacture) and the fixed red lights on steam and diesel, preceded push-pull by many years. It was on the front to signal an emergency braking.
I am sorry, I still do not understand, why on the front?
You are most welcome.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.