The ButlerWas 1959 when diesels took over commuter service or were they in place before the push/pull service?
CNW fully dieselized in 1956 with a hodge-podge of GP 7's and 9's, SD 7's, FM's, and even a few RS 3's. But when push-pull came in, F7's were converted from freight and HEP was added for heating and A/C. Later (can't say when - late 60's?) E units were used.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
LAST YEAR AT THE CROSSING OF LAFOX RD AND THE GENEVA SUB UP i SEAM TO, REMBER SEEING 15 OF SO OF THE SMOOOTH SIDE CARS COMING BACK TO CHICAGO.
I HAVE SEEN SEVERAL ON THE UP WEST LINE
CONRAD
Did the CNW use a certain class of steam locomotive for commuter (suburban) service?
James
The Butler Did the CNW use a certain class of steam locomotive for commuter (suburban) service?
Class E Pacifics were standard passenger power on most of C&NW and this included the suburban service.
Also a few Class D Atlantic's.
No train-lined control cab cars were operated before the push-pull gallery cars. However, push-pull operations were practiced with an air signal line from an 80' suburban coach vestibule "cab" with a rh end window, air-operated wiper, and detachable headlight on the end gate - drafty!
In the late Fifties, an afternoon turn from Elmhurst on the West Line (Geneva Sub), dieselized at the time, would push all the way back to the Madison Street Terminal at track speed, 70 mph. This section of track had wayside signals for use by C&NW, PRR, and B&O transfers without ATC. I watched this apparent deadhead move pass 5th Av Maywood while I waited for a bus on the way home from high school. It's possible this was done on other lines as well; but I don't know of any others specifically. Only a few of the 80' cars seemed to be outfitted for this type of operation.
I saw a dramatic movie of a flying switch at Highland Park to change ends - the manual crossover is still there; but the steam locomotive led the train back to Chicago running backwards. Such a move would have been a candidate for push-pull operation before the Push-Pulls.
The Class E was actually the heavier locomotive with 75" drivers. The E-1 class was lighter, had 69" drivers, and probably used on the many shorter locals. Class A Atlantic's were retired before WWII; and were not well suited for suburban service with 81" drivers. I've seen photos of Class R ten-wheelers, possibly into the Fifties, on suburban trains too.
Not in suburban service; but Pullman-Standard built lightweight streamlined cars with stainless steel fluted panels; and Katy, Frisco, Chessie, Nickel Plate, the Rock, and maybe others got some. Water collected and rusted out the side sheets and framing. The Rock stripped and rebuilt a few of its cars with smooth stainless side sheets for use on the Quad Cities and Peoria Rockets.
HarveyK400Class A Atlantic's were retired before WWII; and were not well suited for suburban service with 81" drivers.
The Atlantic's seen in suburban service were Class D's, even in the early 1950's. A lot of trains used to "airhose" into Madison Street Terminal from the coach yard even in the steam era, but this was not push-pull service.
What was I thinking? You are correct. A's, B's (and C's?) were American 4-4-0's.
Doug Murphy 'We few, we happy few, we band of brothers...' Henry V.
HarveyK400Not in suburban service; but Pullman-Standard built lightweight streamlined cars with stainless steel fluted panels; and Katy, Frisco, Chessie, Nickel Plate, the Rock, and maybe others got some. Water collected and rusted out the side sheets and framing.
The CNW bought three of those cars from the C&O in trade for the three RDC units used in commuter service pre-gallery cars. I don't believe these ever were used in commuter service. Northwestern commuter service must hold a lot of memories for a lot of us, good and bad! As a little child, I recall riding the CA&E into the Loop with my mom. She (and many others) preferred it to the dirty steam trains! Now I bike the Roarin' Elgin's ROW on the Prairie Path.
To me, the CTA's colors were the finest of all the other commuter operations in Chicago.
You're entitled to your opinion; but my avatar shows my sentiment.
I just read, on the "Trains News Wire", that some enlightened solon in the area is going to try and move Amtrak's Glenview, IL station stop out-of-town. I do know that the numerous grade crossings in Glenview do delay the soccer moms "on thier appointed rounds", when they should be home cooking dinner, but, as a frequent "Empire Builder" passenger, in the winter, the station stop in Glenview is a highlight of the trip! The Xmas lights in the town are OUTSTANDING! Prob'ly the best in the country! Worth a drive, or train trip, just to see them. Congrats, Glenview! Without the Amtrak stop there, they will all be a blur. Sorry, soccer moms. Go home and ride the Hoover, or the Maytag!!!
HarveyK400You're entitled to your opinion; but my avatar shows my sentiment.
classicalman114 To me, the CTA's colors were the finest of all the other commuter operations in Chicago.
My dad is partial to the CSL's colors of his childhood!
The photo I use for my avatar was taken at the Ravenswood stop, Lawrence & Ravenswood, Chicago. My best estimate is that it was around 7:45am. The slide processing date was March, 1980.
I also like the shot because it shows the iconic C&NW semaphore signals.
My first "solo" LD trip was from New York (NYG) to Chicago, to St. Paul, to Moose Jaw, to Calgary. NYC-CB&Q-SOO-CP, c.a. 1955. I was 16 and stopped for a few days at an 'old' buddie's place in Des Plaines, IL. I fell in love with the 15-cent McDonald's hamburgers, at the original stand. I wasn't too thrilled with his purple-yellow-and maroon Dodge "Royal Lancer", but it did get us around to many railroad yards. Never saw yellow & green trains before! Even the Soo Lines maroon cars were a bit 'wild'! I got over that when I saw the Great Northern cars in MSP. Guess the New York Central was a bit drab. Next time I was in Des Plaines was two years later. Had to get fixed up with 18+-y-o chicks, so they could buy the beer! Males had to be 21! More mid-west silliness! Fun times!!! I do have B&W 616 pictures and bought a $35 Minolta 35mm when I got back to NY. Didn't have the guts to ride the "Bobs"!
Having grown up along the Harvard Subdivision (1956 to 1970), the deep green and English Stagecoach Yellow does it for me. But, I'll have to admit that I also love the green and cream paint scheme that hosted the C.T.A.'s finest equipment, specifically their 4000-series "Cincinnati Heavyweights." Why the C.T.A. retired this half-century old equipment in November 1972 is beyond my understanding.
October 25th my travels took me to the Fox River Trolley Museum at South Elgin, Ill. Too many seasons parked outside are beginning to take its toll on CTA 4451. The exterior paint's fading, the interior paint is chipping badly, the door seals are about shot, the roll down shades are rotting out and so is much of the upholstery. As someone who can wax eloquent and exotic, elegant and erotic about those cars and the many hours of pleasure I had riding them as "Evanston Express" trains, my heart sank when I saw it.
But for much of their history, the smooth riding and fast Cincinnati heavyweights wore a drab brown paint scheme. I thought the CTA save a four car train of these cars and occasionallly brings it out for railfans or publicity or what not. Are they still around? I think I remember there were two varieties, one originally had center doors, and the other didn't. I remember them last used in rush hour only service on the Evanston Express, and before that they departed from Lake Street.
Hi Dave - The Cincinnatis were probably about a 45 mph car. Did ride good though, as you said! The brown & orange was used on the rapid from 1939 until the 50s (Cincys were repainted to green & cream starting in 1952; the wood-steels wore that paint scheme until their retirement, with the last leaving the fleet at the end of 1957). Cars looked their worst in the early 50s when there was a policy decision to stop washing the cars. Otherwise, the paint job wasn't THAT awful.
A couple of the 1800s (ex-ACF trailers CTA motorized at West Shops) got green, cream & orange or green & white in mid-1950. Not a happy paint scheme for a wood car!
You're correct, two major groups of 4000s - 4001-4250 had the center doors (as well as end vestibules) and rolled steel roofs, so no trolley poles. Actually 4001-4066 were control trailers, the rest motors. 4251-4455 had end vestibules and canvas over wood roofs with trolley poles. Last cars to get a complete overhaul 4271-4272 are the cars that CTA kept, restored into a version of the brown & orange scheme - still on the property. As a group, last use of 4000s was in late 1973 on Evanston Express, prior to that also some cars in Ravenswood rush service. The 2000s (P-S, 1964) bumped 4000s off Lake Street. Hope that helps! Art
Although I'm also partial to the C&NW, the CTA green and white ain't bad!!
CTA retired the 4000's because they were surplus, obsolete, incompatible with other equipment and just plain worn out. They were equipped with ancient control systems, air brakes and different couplers. In fairness, a good number of them served as work motors for several years after their retirement from revenue service.
Of course many of the Spams were not completely new cars when built, but rather used ex-PCC streetcar trucks, motors, seats, control equpment, bullseye lighting fixtures, and possibly other accessories. But for many years they were indeed the largest group of cars in sevice, being in service with the heavyweights and still serving with the new Pullman 2000 and Budd 2200's. So they were certainly a good investment and were the CTA's "signature cars" for many years.
On the cover of the 2009 C&NWHS calendar is a photo of a Westbound bi-level commuter train at Berkeley, Illinois. The blurb about the photo states that the GP9 (1712) has a steam generator and "...auxiliary generating equipment for Suburban Service..." My question is: Did the Gallery Cars use steam or were they only HEP (right term?)?
Also, there looks to be a heavyweight coach at the end of this train. What color would that car be? I can't tell if it it North Western green, Pullman green, black, or something else.
As always, thank you, all.
The first order of suburban bi-levels for C&NW pre-dated the re-equipping of the Flambeau and Peninsula 400's and were set up for steam heat.
The ButlerDid the Gallery Cars use steam or were they only HEP (right term?)?Also, there looks to be a heavyweight coach at the end of this train. What color would that car be? I can't tell if it it North Western green, Pullman green, black, or something else.
Did the Gallery Cars use steam or were they only HEP (right term?)?
1. HEP galleries came in a later order (about 1958?) for the push-pull arrangement.
2. The earlier standard commuter cars, both the 60' shorties with a monitor (clerestory) roof and the 80' aluminum high-capacity lightweights had a shade close to Pullman green, but lightened a tad with more of a coach green, as I recall and from pictures. I think a few of the 80' cars ended up in Stone Mountain, Georgia repainted some weird colors.
80 foot coach
60 footer
The ButlerOn the cover of the 2009 C&NWHS calendar is a photo of a Westbound bi-level commuter train at Berkeley, Illinois. The blurb about the photo states that the GP9 (1712) has a steam generator and "...auxiliary generating equipment for Suburban Service..." My question is: Did the Gallery Cars use steam or were they only HEP (right term?)?Also, there looks to be a heavyweight coach at the end of this train. What color would that car be? I can't tell if it it North Western green, Pullman green, black, or something else. As always, thank you, all.
I recall reading that passenger GP-7's and GP-9's had a 32-v(!?) dc generator for coach lighting in the short hood along with the steam generator that necessitated the extended cabinet. The earlier gallery cars, #1-46, had steam heating until conversion after delivery of the first 150 HEP galleries.
I haven't seen the calendar; but could the "heavyweight" be a ubiquitous (for North Western) 60' "utility" coach with clerestory?
From the picture links provided by "schlimm," it looks like one of the 60' cars to me. This photograph was taken in 1961. I would guess that the 60' car had been converted to HEP.
Harvey, it claims that GP9 #1712 was one of a group of five units (1711-1715) delivered in 1954 with steam generators. It then goes on to say, "The auxiliary generating equipment for Suburban service was housed in an extra squared-off enclosure on the rear platform."
The ButlerFrom the picture links provided by "schlimm," it looks like one of the 60' cars to me. This photograph was taken in 1961. I would guess that the 60' car had been converted to HEP.Harvey, it claims that GP9 #1712 was one of a group of five units (1711-1715) delivered in 1954 with steam generators. It then goes on to say, "The auxiliary generating equipment for Suburban service was housed in an extra squared-off enclosure on the rear platform.
Harvey, it claims that GP9 #1712 was one of a group of five units (1711-1715) delivered in 1954 with steam generators. It then goes on to say, "The auxiliary generating equipment for Suburban service was housed in an extra squared-off enclosure on the rear platform.
2. As Harvey said, the squared off box at the end of the long hood housed a generator (for lighting and AC on gallery cars).
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