You'll see "back-up hoses" on many Amtrak trains.
We use them - every now and then we have to do longer back-up moves (ie, outside the yards).
One thing about the valve on the back-up hoses - with today's pressure maintaining locomotive brake valves, the only way to effect any sort of stop is to dump the train. Trying to simply reduce the pressure in the brake line won't do a thing for you - even if the valve is open all the way...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
tree68 You'll see "back-up hoses" on many Amtrak trains. We use them - every now and then we have to do longer back-up moves (ie, outside the yards). One thing about the valve on the back-up hoses - with today's pressure maintaining locomotive brake valves, the only way to effect any sort of stop is to dump the train. Trying to simply reduce the pressure in the brake line won't do a thing for you - even if the valve is open all the way...
I believe 'pressure maintaining' can be cut in and cut out by the engineer on the locomotive. Cut it out when move is to be controlled by the back up valve and cut it back in when the engineer again has full control of the movement.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Deggesty Paul, the horror that I remember was the peanut whistles on Georgia RR diesels when I lived in Decatur. After having heard the mellow whistles of J's while living in Bristol, it was nerve-wrcking.was
Paul, the horror that I remember was the peanut whistles on Georgia RR diesels when I lived in Decatur. After having heard the mellow whistles of J's while living in Bristol, it was nerve-wrcking.was
The term for whistle many years ago was "steam trumpet". The passed on tradition among railroaders is the term whistle, although the FRA gives instructions to the use of the locomotive horn. So, when approaching a crossing be sure to blow the horn when you note the trackside whistle post.
BaltACDOn my carrier and I suspect many others, the caboose 'whistle' was a dual function air valve permanetly attached to the caboose railings on each end of the caboose - 1. make the whistling sound for road crossings and other signalling purposes. 2. as a air brake valve to apply the brakes on a shoving movement.
At the Fox River Trolley Museum, we have an ex-IC transfer caboose that is so equipped. We don't have to to use a hose type as Amtrak.
Also, many observation cars had a brake valve, a signal valve and whistle valve behind a panel near the door. Memories of the B&O's Cincinnatian backing across Spring Grove Ave after leaving Winton Place when the conducter would sid down just before the train made its stop, waited for the switch to reverse, and the signal to clear and then start backing. Conducter would have the back-up whistle screaming as we approached the crossing. It was an efficient and quick operation.
blue streak 1 Deggesty Paul, the horror that I remember was the peanut whistles on Georgia RR diesels when I lived in Decatur. After having heard the mellow whistles of J's while living in Bristol, it was nerve-wrcking.was Agree noted that many time with the eastbound evening GARR passenger train going past agony spot. ( That's Agnes Scott college in Decatur for the unknowing ). The only way to describe the horn was it was a poor imitation of the American Flyer attempt to imitate a Nathan Air Chime horn in their "S" guage trains.
Johnny
Yep, the New Haven RR was a big user of Hancock Air Whistles (an on-line customer of theirs, I believe). The NH applied them to:29 x RDC-12 x RDC-26 x RDC-33 x RDC-41 x DL-10960 x FL930 x GP915 x H16-4415 x RS-1120 x SW1200100 x 4400-class MU's10 x EP-59 x FCD RailbusTotal: 300 Hancock Air Whistles
Plus, the NH applied old steam whistles to new diesel switchers:65 x S-122 x S-221 x HH's10 x DEY-2Whistles were applied to all NH electric motors other than the EF-4, EF-3 and EP-4 (that's 163 electrics w/ the EP-5's).
BaltACDI believe 'pressure maintaining' can be cut in and cut out by the engineer on the locomotive. Cut it out when move is to be controlled by the back up valve and cut it back in when the engineer again has full control of the movement.
Having one man in control of the air and the other in control of the shoving sounds like a recipe for disaster. No thanks. Give me car counts and let me have my air.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
zugmannHaving one man in control of the air and the other in control of the shoving sounds like a recipe for disaster.
A friend nearly discovered the hard way about dumping the air vs a reduction. As Zug says, good car counts and you're in business. Dumping the air is for emergencies.
We'd always test the back-up hose by cutting out the brake stand and doing a reduction. Then, during one event, we discovered that it was possible to have the valve on the back-up hose fully open (having been slowly opened) and still not effect a reduction... It wasn't ugly, but it got real close...
I have a Penn Central Western Region employee timetable dated 1969 which includes 2-3 pages of Special Instructions related to passenger equipment back-up moves into Chicago Union Station. There are provisions for a number of safety stops included.
zugmann BaltACD Having one man in control of the air and the other in control of the shoving sounds like a recipe for disaster. No thanks. Give me car counts and let me have my air.
BaltACD
Just like almost everything else in railroading the routine backup moves had their own set of procedures to be followed. The engineer would have his visual cues of when to apply power and when to decrease power in accordance with the train size of the move he was making - the other thing to remember - RADIOS DID NOT EXIST, so car counts weren't available to the man controlling the locomotive throttle.
Railroading without radios is totally foreign to current railroaders.
Paul of CovingtonDid early diesels have a different-sounding horn?
Many of them did. We've had threads about the A-220 and similar 'honkers' (listen to any cut of a GG1 that uses the horn for the idea).
As I've noted, I spent my early years close to the Erie (became Erie Lackawanna) Northern Branch, which had only just become equipped with RS2s/3s that had this kind of single-note horn. That was how I thought locomotives were "supposed" to sound for many childhood years. They were not so much a 'blat' (like truck air horns) as a kind of "HAAAAAMP!" sound; I never objected to the sound of this kind of horn on GG1s at high speed.
On the other hand, once we moved to the East Hill on the Palisades in the mid-1960s, I could hear the three-note chime horns on the NYC West Shore all through the night, and while they might not have all the quilling 'expression playing' steam whistles did, they were just as emotionally evocative -- 'real' railroading instead of plain old commuter stuff.
zugmann Deggesty Ed, Larry, Carl, Balt, Zug, Jeff, anyone? Whistle or horn - completely interchangable. I think the rulebook calls them horn signals, but don't quote me on that. I'd check, but it's in my locker. On newer engines, the lever/button has a picture of a little trumpet next to it.
Deggesty Ed, Larry, Carl, Balt, Zug, Jeff, anyone?
Whistle or horn - completely interchangable. I think the rulebook calls them horn signals, but don't quote me on that. I'd check, but it's in my locker. On newer engines, the lever/button has a picture of a little trumpet next to it.
GCOR calls them whistle signals.
Jeff
jeffhergert Whistle or horn - completely interchangeable. I think the rulebook calls them horn signals, but don't quote me on that. I'd check, but it's in my locker. GCOR calls them whistle signals.
Whistle or horn - completely interchangeable. I think the rulebook calls them horn signals, but don't quote me on that. I'd check, but it's in my locker.
NORAC is interesting. It calls them "whistle or horn signals" in most places (e.g., Rule 19) but then refers to the actual procedure only as 'whistling'. One piece of wording is interesting:
For trains and engines exceeding 60 MPH, the whistle signal must not be started more than ¼ mile in advance of the public grade crossing, even if the advance warning provided by the locomotive horn will be less than 15 seconds in duration.
In the definitions section, for "quiet zone", only the word 'horn' is used, which I assumed to be related to a formal or perhaps legal definition (remember that 49 CFR Part 222 is called by the FRA the "Train Horn Rule", and by CSX the "Locomotive Horn Rule")
I have to wonder, a bit tongue in cheek, what the official word for horn use that corresponds to 'whistling' might be...
RMEI have to wonder, a bit tongue in cheek, what the official word for horn use that corresponds to 'whistling' might be...
Fortunately "tweet" is taken...
She who has no signature! cinscocom-tmw
I would formally like to nominate Wanswheel's posting above as "The Photo of the Year"....cannot see this being topped...likely ever!
Also well aware that the Milwaukee built a lot of their equipment, from rolling stock to passenger cars, and they all had their own distinctive look but this arrangement/creation is amazing.
"Hey, we've got a crossing coming up. Get the horns out of the lounge car..."
wanswheel
Whew! It is well that I proofread what I just wrote--among other interesting things, my fingers at first failed to put the "t" in rabbits."
Semper Vaporo I have two friends that are "Engineers" (another misnomer) and they both have referred to "Whistling a crossing" or "Whistle signals for the man on the ground..."
I have two friends that are "Engineers" (another misnomer) and they both have referred to "Whistling a crossing" or "Whistle signals for the man on the ground..."
And on the scanner I have heard references to "whistling off" (departing).
And further on a point made above, the Milwaukee Road 4-8-4 #261 has two different steam whistles and an air horn. I am told that in regular service it almost always used the air horn at crossings, etc. Now and then they use it (the air horn that is) in excursion service.
Dave Nelson
DeggestyWhew! It is well that I proofread what I just wrote--among other interesting things, my fingers at first failed to put the "t" in rabbits.
Darned clergymen...
Deggesty... among other interesting things, my fingers at first failed to put the "t" in rabbits."
Not as much of a mistake as you think! Those rabbis were probably avoiding paying rail fare by utilizing קְפִיצַת הַדֶּרֶךְin a more direct line...
Doesn't Portland's GS-4 4449 have a single note air horn as well as a steam boat whistle ?
blue streak 1 Doesn't Portland's GS-4 4449 have a single note air horn as well as a steam boat whistle ?
Yes it does, and it's been said that Doyle McCormick hates it.
Norm
jeffhergert zugmann Deggesty Ed, Larry, Carl, Balt, Zug, Jeff, anyone? Whistle or horn - completely interchangable. I think the rulebook calls them horn signals, but don't quote me on that. I'd check, but it's in my locker. On newer engines, the lever/button has a picture of a little trumpet next to it. GCOR calls them whistle signals.
So does the CROR (Canadian rules), but horn is acceptable too apparently. Excerpt from Rule 14:
Note:
(i) Wherever the words “engine whistle” appear in these rules they also refer to “engine horn”. Signals prescribed by this rule are illustrated by “o” for short sounds; “___” for longer sounds.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
selectorI have always used the term 'horn' for the flared tubes with vibrating diaphragms that make what I like to call a 'blaaattt!" That would be on all diesels and on at least one 4-8-4 back in the day...the S1-b Niagara.
Just as a note: the Niagaras weren't built with them (and the C1a Duplex wasn't specified with one, either). The 'pneuphonic' horns were applied at quarterly inspections in 1947 (5550, the S2a, got its horn in March).
There's an appreciable saving of heat and water if there's a need to blow for many grade crossings at high speed...
I wonder if those guys were salaried or paid by the hour?
Or the honk?
Norm48327 blue streak 1 Doesn't Portland's GS-4 4449 have a single note air horn as well as a steam boat whistle ? Yes it does, and it's been said that Doyle McCormick hates it.
I forget where I read this, but supposedly the air horns were installed on the GS's since they ran along the California coast and the sound from air horns was distorted less by the frequent fogs along the route than steam whistles were.
It does sound plausible. Mariners will tell you fog does distort conventional whistles making it difficult to tell just where the sound is coming from, it's one of the reasons fog was the most hated navigational hazard in the pre-radar days.
Doesn't explain why the NYC put air horns on the Niagaras though. Just to be modern and "cool?" Although RME's suggestion of saving steam, heat, and water does make sense.
Firelock76It does sound plausible. Mariners will tell you fog does distort conventional whistles making it difficult to tell just where the sound is coming from, it's one of the reasons fog was the most hated navigational hazard in the pre-radar days. Doesn't explain why the NYC put air horns on the Niagaras though. Just to be modern and "cool?"
Doesn't explain why the NYC put air horns on the Niagaras though. Just to be modern and "cool?"
In the early fall, rivers that have accumulated Summer's heat all summer, when the early cold snaps come along generate some severe fog events throughout the valleys that the rivers occupy. NYC prided itself in being 'the Water Level Route' - being water level it occupied many river valleys that would become fog filled.
That makes sense too.
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