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Diesels Catalogued, but not Built

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Posted by NorthWest on Tuesday, July 29, 2014 5:18 PM

Thanks, I had forgotten the differences between EMD's Brazilian and North American production. (Although, the first order was built at London.) I need to take a more in depth look at EMD Brazil's catalog.

This is designed to compete with the GE BB40-9WMs? Both EFVM and VLI have purchased those. 

I'm not going to add this to the list until it is officially out of production. 

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Posted by GDRMCo on Tuesday, July 29, 2014 6:31 PM

The first 7 SD80ACes were built at London correct, my South American contact has lead me to believe there's another 23 on order (23 or 33, can't remember exactly) for Vale so it's likely more will be built down there as they're already building the SD70ACe/45.

And yes, it's designed to be an AC traction competitor to the BB40-9WM of which Vale(EFVM), VL! and ALL have purchased, VL! and ALL are rumored to be interested in the 8-axle version of the SD70ACe/45 while Vale(EFVM) is interested in the 8-axle SD80ACe.

ML

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Posted by Leo_Ames on Saturday, February 21, 2015 5:38 AM

Has EMD's F70PHAC been mentioned? This according to the January 1991 issue of Trains was to be an expanded take on the F69PHAC prototypes, with a 16-710 and a larger cab. Specs were wrote by Amtrak and an artist's conception was created for this bid by EMD, but obviously nothing ultimately came of it and Amtrak instead went to GE.

But like most of these, difficult to detirmine if it went far enough past the drawing boards to be considered as an official product that the builder actively tried to sell. 

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Posted by carnej1 on Monday, February 23, 2015 11:19 AM

One of the most interesting threads in recent years is reborn!

 It strikes me that the Production model Tier IV compliant EGR equipped SD70Ace that EMD was desperately trying to work the bugs out before determining that the so-modified 16-710 would not operate to the satisfaction of potential customers might qualify for this list..

 

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Posted by NorthWest on Wednesday, February 25, 2015 11:06 PM

Thanks for bringing this thread back. Sorry I couldn't respond the last couple days.

I'll look into the F70PHAC. The SD70ACe doesn't qualify, as it was never officially catalogued. 

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Posted by carnej1 on Thursday, February 26, 2015 11:20 AM

NorthWest

Thanks for bringing this thread back. Sorry I couldn't respond the last couple days.

I'll look into the F70PHAC. The SD70ACe doesn't qualify, as it was never officially catalogued. 

 

Really?:

http://www.emdiesels.com/emdweb/products/sd70ace.jsp

But I'm probably hair splitting as who knows if they would have modified the model name for the Tier IV equipped locomotives (if they did it would probably be a number suffix)..

 

 

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Posted by NorthWest on Thursday, February 26, 2015 9:41 PM

While railroads do classify their engines by Tier, builders in the past have not changed their designations. We had a discussion that at this point unbuilt model phases are not to be included, they may be in the future. I think that the proposed Tier IV 710-powered SD70ACe can be classed as a proposed phase, and I don't think it was ever catalogued, as EMD found it wouldn't work. The link describes the Tier III version.

Until I have time to do research, I found a couple more:

Alco E1530S SSB1 S1 calf

Alco E1540S SSB2 S2 calf

Please, keep it up!

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Posted by YoHo1975 on Friday, February 27, 2015 2:40 PM
Yes, simply, The Tier 4 SD70 was never Cataloged as it literally does not exist as EMD never actually achieved a tier 4 qualification nor produced a demo unit. A requirement right there in the name of the thread and so it does not count.
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Posted by zkr123 on Friday, February 27, 2015 9:01 PM

Vossloh 4000 that was never  built for  MBTA. 

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Posted by NorthWest on Sunday, March 1, 2015 10:37 AM

Just finished reading Preston Cook's excellent article on F units in Classic Trains, and learned a couple of new things.

1. While not applicable to this thread, the prototype FG9 was actually constructed and tested.

2. EMD prepared pricing and specifications for proposed F18 and F20 models, with the machinery of the GP18 and GP20. 

If you haven't read the article, it is well worth purchasing a copy of the magazine.

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Posted by Leo_Ames on Monday, March 2, 2015 8:13 AM

This issue of Classic Trains was also the first time I had heard about those proposed F unit models.

Excellent issue all around. 

NorthWest
While not applicable to this thread, the prototype FG9 was actually constructed and tested.

I thought that I posted a picture of this unit earlier in the thread. If not, here's the picture and an article about it. 

http://utahrails.net/up/fg9.php

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Posted by carnej1 on Monday, March 2, 2015 11:39 AM

YoHo1975
Yes, simply, The Tier 4 SD70 was never Cataloged as it literally does not exist as EMD never actually achieved a tier 4 qualification nor produced a demo unit. A requirement right there in the name of the thread and so it does not count.
 

 I do see the issue with the SD70Ace Tier iv but there are several locomotive models that are on the list that never had a demonstrator constructed and may not have appeared as an officially offered model number in any manufacturer publication.

  The models I am referring to (several being Alco offerings) all appear to have been part of official presentations to potential customers and that is why they are on the list......

 I would suggest that the GE ES23B(4 axle road switcher using an inline 6 version of the GEVO engine) might be worthy of inclusion: it was included in presentations that General Electric gave to decision makers in the industry. GE stated that the model could either be remanufactured from older units or built as new-build locomotives per customer preference.

 

 

 

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Posted by 16-567D3A on Monday, March 2, 2015 10:07 PM

.                    , 

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Posted by Leo_Ames on Tuesday, March 3, 2015 12:45 AM

Surprised anyone is still waiting, since mine arrived very early. Usually shows up the last two or three days of the month along with Trains. But this time, Classic Trains showed up around the 20th of last month (While the latest issue of Trains stuck to past form and showed up with a couple of days or so left in February).

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Posted by NorthWest on Tuesday, August 11, 2015 1:16 PM

Time for an update. I've been talking with someone on another forum about export locomotives, and will be adding them at some point. I've also added a phase/other section for things that don't fit elsewhere, such as the Q-cab Dash-7s and some export locomotives that were built as either B-B, C-C, or A1A-A1A but had one or more of the other two not built.

The List

GE

B18-7

U18C-North American extension of the U18B

U56

U18BT

U15BT

U33CG

B40-8(B)

C23-7

B28-7

C28-7

B23-8

B33-7

C33-7

EMD

DD40A

F70PHAC

SD39-DC

SD55

AMT-125

RB3600

GMDH-2

SD40-2B

GP2000

SD39-2

SDL39-2

SD59

SD49

TR12

F45B

TR9

F18

F20

M-K

MK5000AC

MK6000AC

F-M

CFA-24

CFB-24

CPB-20

CPB-24

ALCO

PA-3

FA-4

C428

C620

C624

C636F

C636P(A)

C636P(B)

C650DH

RSD-33

SSB1 (S1 calf)

SSB2 (S2 calf)

Ingalls

3-S

16-S

5-S

17A

MLW

RSC-23

RS-13

RS-24

Bombardier

HR416

HR618

HR406

Lima

800 HP BB road switcher

1600 HP center cab C-C road switcher/transfer

2400 HP center cab C-C road switcher/transfer

3200 HP CC cab unit powered by 6 free piston generators powering a turbine.

1600 HP Switcher Combo

2400HP Switcher Combo

Baldwin

1000 HP C-C Road Switcher

1500 HP C-C Road Transfer (streamlined car body)

3000 HP A1A-A1A Road Locomotive

Phases/Other

Q cab Dash-7 GEs

GE Dash 8-32C (later updated phase of C32-8 that would have been somewhat like NS's Dash 8-32Bs)

A1A EMD G16

B-B EMD G16

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Posted by NorthWest on Tuesday, August 11, 2015 1:40 PM

Now for the new models.

First is the EMD G6. Essentially a 6-567 in the same carbody that was used for the G12 and G8.

More interesting is the second; the R. It is a 16-567C locomotive in an export carbody that generates 1750 HP, and so would have been roughly mechanically equivilent to a SD18. It has four radiator fans and a large radiator at the rear, and dynamic brakes in the usual spot in the short hood. It would have been a C-C locomotive.

As for GEs, there are numerous Universal Series export models that were not built. 

From the 1956 catalogue:

U4B: similar to the U6B but less powerful

U18B: similar to the U18C export units built for Indonesia and elsewhere but with B trucks

From the 1961 export catalogue:

U10B: Uprated version of U9B, distinct from later end-cab model U10B

U10C: Uprated version of U9C

U20B: Uprated version of never built U18B above

U26C: Quickly dropped 16-cylinder version of U20C, distinct from later 12-cylinder models.

An early phase of the U20C, with a high short hood and carbody similar to the U13C was also not built.

Comments?

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Tuesday, August 11, 2015 1:54 PM

Export models are going to have a host of variations due to differences in gauge, clearance diagram, axle loading limitations, etc.  It can be pretty hard to determine what is a catalogued model and what is a one-off modification.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by NorthWest on Tuesday, August 11, 2015 2:13 PM

That is true. Those are all standard models that were part of larger catalogues, so I feel they are worthwhile to include. Most of the other export models were based on these models but adapted for whaterver special conditions neccesitated modification. We'll see what others come up with and consider them by case.

I went through the ALCO specifications on the ALCOWorld website and am processing what I think are a few models that I will post later today. It is hard to tell what was officially offered or not, as some were simply development specifications, but some are distinct models.

[edit] Wow, I'm over 2000 posts now. I doesn't feel like I joined all that long ago! [/edit]

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Posted by mandealco on Tuesday, August 11, 2015 7:36 PM

GE Built 49 U-26C's for NZR in the early-mid 70's, although these were 16 cylinder models.  48 of these are still in service, though rebuilt to C30-8 standards.  The only withdrawal was a near new unit, written off after a head on collision in Auckland.

Cheers
Steve

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Posted by NorthWest on Tuesday, August 11, 2015 9:32 PM

Okay, now for the Alcos. I'm neglecting to include specification numbers since they aren't really neccesary for this purpose, but I could find them again if needed.

The first export models are part of the DL500 series, which intersects interestingly with the FA series. There is the FA1 and FA2, FPx3 export, F(P)A4, and then FPx5, FPx6 and FPx7 export models. Similarly to RS models, a C was to indicate an A1A-A1A model, and a D was used to indicate a C-C model.

As for models, I think these were not built:

FP3

FP6

FPC6

FP7

FPC7

Bombardier export models:

MX412

MX415

MX612

And now for the maybes.

E1671: RSX22, intended to be a successor to the RSX4(MRS1)

E1648: RSD1B

E1400: HH150

E1503: HH400

E411: Some sort of 800hp center cab.

I'm not sure how horsepower would be reduced on the HH models.

Anyone else have more comments or information?

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Posted by carnej1 on Wednesday, August 12, 2015 11:35 AM

NorthWest

Time for an update. I've been talking with someone on another forum about export locomotives, and will be adding them at some point. I've also added a phase/other section for things that don't fit elsewhere, such as the Q-cab Dash-7s and some export locomotives that were built as either B-B, C-C, or A1A-A1A but had one or more of the other two not built.

The List


EMD


F70PHAC


What is the source for that alleged EMD model?

I'm assuming that the model number indicates a locomotive similar to the two prototype F69PHAC units that were built;cowled body on a roadswitcher frame with AC traction motors and the associated inverters, ect..

The reason I ask is that in discussions on this and other forums about hypothetical high horsepower 4 axle locomotives with AC traction motors built on roadswitcher frames (as opposed to monocoque structure like the newest AC traction passenger units) i.e a "GP70AC" it has been strongly suggested that such units would be excessively overweight for the 4 axle trucks and thus would not be practical.

 Also regarding the General Electric section; I still contend that based on this official GE presentation (link below,page 10) the proposed ES23B - a 4 axle roadswitcher powered by the inline 6 cylinder derivation of the GEVO engine should be included.

http://www.fasterfreightcleanerair.com/pdfs/Presentations/FFCACA2008/Pete%20Lawson.pdf

 It has been officially offered to the industry by the manufacturer. This puts it in at least as much standing as ATSF's request for a quote on a B unit version of the Dash 8-40B.

I concede that the fact that the model could still could be ordered by a customer might mean it may not meet fully the list criteria...

 

 

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Posted by NorthWest on Wednesday, August 12, 2015 1:32 PM

mandealco
GE Built 49 U-26C's for NZR in the early-mid 70's, although these were 16 cylinder models. 48 of these are still in service, though rebuilt to C30-8 standards.

Sorry, I somehow missed this yesterday. The NZR U26Cs were built with the 7FDL-12, and were part of the later specification. The first with the 7FDL-16 was not built. Brazil, South Africa, Zambia, and Kenya recieved similar units to the New Zealand ones.  

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Posted by NorthWest on Wednesday, August 12, 2015 1:42 PM

carnej1
What is the source for that alleged EMD model? I'm assuming that the model number indicates a locomotive similar to the two prototype F69PHAC units that were built;cowled body on a roadswitcher frame with AC traction motors and the associated inverters, ect..

Leo Ames discusses it in an earlier post, which I have included below.

Leo_Ames
Has EMD's F70PHAC been mentioned? This according to the January 1991 issue of Trains was to be an expanded take on the F69PHAC prototypes, with a 16-710 and a larger cab. Specs were wrote by Amtrak and an artist's conception was created for this bid by EMD, but obviously nothing ultimately came of it and Amtrak instead went to GE.

I'm reluctant to add the ES23B as it may still be in the catalogue, seeing as rebuilds could still be constructed with the existing design. When it is moved out of the catalogue, I'll add it.

 

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Posted by mandealco on Wednesday, August 12, 2015 2:48 PM
Oops, sorry, I meant to say 12 cylinder FDL's
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Posted by GDRMCo on Wednesday, August 12, 2015 6:48 PM

NorthWest

 

 
carnej1
What is the source for that alleged EMD model? I'm assuming that the model number indicates a locomotive similar to the two prototype F69PHAC units that were built;cowled body on a roadswitcher frame with AC traction motors and the associated inverters, ect..

 

Leo Ames discusses it in an earlier post, which I have included below.

 

 
Leo_Ames
Has EMD's F70PHAC been mentioned? This according to the January 1991 issue of Trains was to be an expanded take on the F69PHAC prototypes, with a 16-710 and a larger cab. Specs were wrote by Amtrak and an artist's conception was created for this bid by EMD, but obviously nothing ultimately came of it and Amtrak instead went to GE.

 

I'm reluctant to add the ES23B as it may still be in the catalogue, seeing as rebuilds could still be constructed with the existing design. When it is moved out of the catalogue, I'll add it.

 

 

 

So Amtrak could've had 4000hp AC units capable of handling nearly every size train? The commuter market would've been all over something like this (one loco capable of handling long sets).

ML

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Posted by NorthWest on Wednesday, August 12, 2015 7:29 PM

Leo, it would be useful to have any information from that article. Would it have been C-C? What was the maximum speed and weight of the proposal?

Based on the time period and the concurrent SD60, I suspect it would be rated at 3,800 HP without HEP parasitic load.

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Posted by Leo_Ames on Wednesday, August 12, 2015 8:35 PM

Sadly, I believe that I listed all the details provided by the story. I'll double check though and edit this post. 

Edit: The proposal involved a seven unit order. Here's EMD's rendering of it, which confirms that it would've been a BB, like I'm sure most would've guessed given Amtrak's struggles in the 1970's with their EMD and GE CC's. 

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Posted by M636C on Wednesday, August 12, 2015 9:46 PM

NorthWest

Leo, it would be useful to have any information from that article. Would it have been C-C? What was the maximum speed and weight of the proposal?

Based on the time period and the concurrent SD60, I suspect it would be rated at 3,800 HP without HEP parasitic load.

 

The 3800 HP limit for the SD60 was set by the AR11 alternator and not the 710G3B engine. An AC traction locomotive would not have needed the DC output of the AR series and may have had a TA series alternator relying on the traction converters to produce the DC to feed the inverters for the traction motors. So a 4000HP traction rating is likely.

The "F2" was rated at 1350HP, limited by the generator, while the same engine was capable of 1500HP in the F3.

M636C

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Posted by NorthWest on Wednesday, August 12, 2015 10:35 PM

Leo, thanks for posting that. I do have to wonder whether weight would have been an issue.

M636C, I thought the SD60 had the AR20, but you are correct. Thanks!

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Posted by carnej1 on Friday, August 14, 2015 11:08 AM

Leo_Ames

Sadly, I believe that I listed all the details provided by the story. I'll double check though and edit this post. 

Edit: The proposal involved a seven unit order. Here's EMD's rendering of it, which confirms that it would've been a BB, like I'm sure most would've guessed given Amtrak's struggles in the 1970's with their EMD and GE CC's. 

 

Very interesting.

Makes me wonder if a freight version; a "GP70AC", would have been technically feasible...

 

"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock

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