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Diesels Catalogued, but not Built

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Posted by carnej1 on Monday, October 7, 2013 11:12 AM

I seem to remember a mention a reference to a  "C660" model as well..IIRC, it was listed as a catolog model in a late 1960's Alco manual that was for sale at a local trainshhow..

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Posted by Overmod on Monday, October 7, 2013 10:49 PM

CSSHEGEWISCH

Steinbrenner in his centennial history of Alco does mention the proposed C636P.  Alco made the proposal to Santa Fe at the same time that EMD proposed the FP45 and GE proposed the U30CG.  Side drawings suggest that it would have had the Alco flatnose.

 

Ah yes, the C636P -- as it happens, not only do we have drawings, we have quite a bit more...  (Admittedly as painted it has a PA nose, not the 'correct' one from the drawings, and with roofline plus radiators it might have had a little clearance trouble  ;-})

[NOTE: the original Gil Bennett 'anatomy of a painting' that showed this work in progress is archived in the Wayback Machine here.]

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Posted by NorthWest on Monday, October 7, 2013 11:03 PM

Beautiful, Overmod! Although, I'd like to see the PA-style headlight...Wink

Does anyone have any details on any un-built Bombardier designs just after they purchased MLW? 

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Posted by Leo_Ames on Monday, October 7, 2013 11:22 PM

Certainly puts to shame the U30CG and the FP45 in the looks department. 

I too would like to see how it would look with the grilled headlight casing and in Santa Fe's passenger warbonnet paint scheme. 

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Tuesday, October 8, 2013 8:23 AM

Siting the painting in the Pequops reminds me of some of Richard Steinheimer's work, especially from a spread in TRAINS after SP retired its PA's.

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Posted by carnej1 on Wednesday, October 9, 2013 11:19 AM

Overmod

CSSHEGEWISCH

Steinbrenner in his centennial history of Alco does mention the proposed C636P.  Alco made the proposal to Santa Fe at the same time that EMD proposed the FP45 and GE proposed the U30CG.  Side drawings suggest that it would have had the Alco flatnose.

Ah yes, the C636P -- as it happens, not only do we have drawings, we have quite a bit more...  (Admittedly as painted it might have had a little clearance trouble  ;-})

At least one Modeler has built a C636P in N-scale..

http://dieseldetailer.proboards.com/thread/5957/scale-alco-636p

 

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Posted by Leo_Ames on Sunday, October 20, 2013 3:45 AM

Did the Dash 7 successor to the U18B, the B18-7, get mentioned?

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Posted by NorthWest on Sunday, October 20, 2013 3:18 PM

Here is a list of what we have so far, copied and pasted in: 

GE

B18-7

U56

U18BT

U15BT

B40-8(B)

C23-7

B28-7

C28-7

B23-8

EMD

DD40A

AMT-125

RB3600

GMDH-2

SD40-2B

GP2000

SD39-2

SDL39-2

SD59

SD49

TR12

F45B

TR9

F-M

CFA-24

CFB-24

CPB-20

CPB-24

ALCO

C428

 C620

 C624

 C636F

 C636P

 C650DH

RSD-33

Railpower

RP20BH

Ingalls

3-S

16-S

5-S

17A

MLW

RSC-23

RS-13

RS-24

Lima

800 HP BB road switcher

 1600 HP center cab C-C road switcher

 2400 HP center cab intended for transfer duties

3200 HP CC cab unit powered by 6 free piston generators powering a turbine. 

Baldwin

1000 HP C-C Road Switcher

1500 HP C-C Road Transfer (streamlined car body)

3000 HP A1A-A1A Road Locomotive

Any more? There is some mention of other un-built Baldwins, Limas and models that were offered and not built by Bombardier when they purchased MLW. And what of the Alco FA-3?

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Posted by Leo_Ames on Monday, October 21, 2013 3:31 AM

NorthWest
Any more? There is some mention of other un-built Baldwins, Limas and models that were offered and not built by Bombardier when they purchased MLW. And what of the Alco FA-3?

Since Canada got FPA-4's, I suppose we should include the FA-4 since I'm sure that they'd of been happy to build one without a steam generator.  Wikipedia claims that Pakistan got 23 FCA-3's so maybe there's our FA-3?

It lacks a designation in the story, but according to excellent article from November 1966 Trains by J. David Ingles that chronicled the American history of the Alco PA line up to that time, what was a PA-4 had been cataloged for 1954.

The PA-4 (Not to be mixed up with the four rebuilt Santa Fe PA-1's on the Delaware & Hudson) would've had 2,400 HP but none were ever ordered due to the decline in the passenger trade and growing dissatisfaction with Alco products including the widespread demotion of earlier PA's to secondary services. 

And according to Wikipedia, this was what the PA-3 really was supposed to be and it suggests that 1952 and 1953 PA-3's with the water cooled turbocharger, the lack of the rain run-off trough, and other changes were really just PA-2's despite being widely classified as PA-3's.

One way or another though, there seems to have been an unbuilt 2,400 HP model in the line. 

NorthWest
Any more? There is some mention of other un-built Baldwins, Limas and models that were offered and not built by Bombardier when they purchased MLW.

Bombardier cataloged five products in their HR line but only the HR412 and the HR616 were ever built. The other three were the HR416 (A 3,200 HP BB), HR618 (A 3,600 HP CC), and the HR406 (A 1,200 HP switcher). All but the switcher had the Canadian comfort cab and included cowl options. And like the HR412, the HR416 could be equipped with HEP. 

NorthWest

Lima

800 HP BB road switcher

 1600 HP center cab C-C road switcher

 2400 HP center cab intended for transfer duties

3200 HP CC cab unit powered by 6 free piston generators powering a turbine. 

Any more? There is some mention of other un-built Limas?

They offered two transfer locomotives that were switchers MU's together (And I assume drawbar connected) that they called double unit transfer locomotives. They were 1600 HP combinations or 2400 HP combinations. But these were built as single unit 800 HP and 1200 HP switchers so it's a gray area. And each half had a cab unlike the cab/calf concept from EMD. 

For their 1600 HP and 2400 HP center cabs, there were transfer and road switcher options for both. The road switcher option would've had a slightly lengthened hood at one end for an optional steam generator. 

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Monday, October 21, 2013 8:24 AM

A review of Alco's model designations from the 1940's and 1950's (which were applied retroactively) shows that export models were intermingled with domestic models.  The FPD3, which falls between the FA/FPA2 and FPA4, was one of the versions of the World Locomotive.

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Posted by Leo_Ames on Monday, October 21, 2013 9:35 AM

For another what might've been, there seems to have been a chance of a FL9 successor. New York Central tested several New Haven FL9's in 1965 with an eye towards eliminating swapping diesel and electric power. 

That's a full half decade after the last FL9 rolled out. So it's extremely unlikely that had it led to an order that it would've been for FL9's. And I suppose a streamlined unit was unlikely due to the extra cost, the hoped for demise of passenger service on the system in the near future, and the Central's quick and total acceptance of hood units. They wouldn't of wanted to pay extra for aesthetics and they'd of surely wanted something that could easily transition into their 2nd generation freight fleet. 

But how far anything got beyond the Central's test,  I don't know. Obviously no order was ever placed. Anyone know if EMD submitted a proposal which would qualify it for this list? 

Here's a photograph taking during one of their test runs. 

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1447076

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Posted by NorthWest on Monday, October 21, 2013 5:41 PM

Thanks everybody. I think I'll class the 2400 HP PA the PA-3, as that is what I have seen most often classified (and it helps eliminate confusion over the M-K rebuilds).

I have seen sources indicating a FA-4 being catalogued in the US, and so will add it.

On the FA-3, the export model seems logical.

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Posted by NorthWest on Monday, October 21, 2013 5:46 PM

Updated List

GE

B18-7

U56

U18BT

U15BT

B40-8(B)

C23-7

B28-7

C28-7

B23-8

EMD

DD40A

AMT-125

RB3600

GMDH-2

SD40-2B

GP2000

SD39-2

SDL39-2

SD59

SD49

TR12

F45B

TR9

F-M

CFA-24

CFB-24

CPB-20

CPB-24

ALCO

PA-3

FA-4

C428

C620

C624

C636F

C636P

C650DH

RSD-33

Railpower

RP20BH

Ingalls

3-S

16-S

5-S

17A

MLW

RSC-23

RS-13

RS-24

Bombardier

HR416

HR618

HR406

Lima

800 HP BB road switcher

1600 HP center cab C-C road switcher/transfer

2400 HP center cab C-C road switcher/transfer 

3200 HP CC cab unit powered by 6 free piston generators powering a turbine. 

1600 HP Switcher Combo

2400HP Switcher Combo

Baldwin

1000 HP C-C Road Switcher

1500 HP C-C Road Transfer (streamlined car body)

3000 HP A1A-A1A Road Locomotive

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Posted by Leo_Ames on Sunday, November 3, 2013 8:46 PM

Not mentioned is GE's passenger proposal to Amtrak during its early days. Not familiar with many details since I've only seen a drawing of its proposal, but it looked very much like Santa Fe's U30CG's and I assume it too would've also been 3,000 HP judging by what they later bought from both builders.

Visual differences include it having a slightly slanted nose with no front porch similar to something like a E9 which lends it a more streamlined appearance. And it has a horizontal headlight arrangement above the nose door instead of the vertical setup on Santa Fe's U30CG's to accommodate the door (Where as the headlights are built into the nose door on the Santa Fe locomotives).  

And it doesn't count for this topic, but Amtrak inquired about what would amount to a "E10" since it liked the aesthetics and the dual engines which could keep you moving in the event of an engine failure. But EMD declined to offer such a locomotive since the engineering and tooling would make it cost prohibitive and E unit jigs and such had been destroyed and couldn't be adapted. 

Details come from the article "The Power of Amtrak" by Don Phillips in the August 1972 issue of Trains detailing the goings on with Amtrak's locomotives at that time.  

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Posted by Leo_Ames on Sunday, November 3, 2013 9:45 PM

And thanks to a thread from the Railroad.net forums, here are a few others.

U25BG with a high nose with a steam generator. GE prepared artwork for this and marketed it but no takers. 

U18C which was considered by the Union Railroad to replace their Buffalo's (EMD repowered 6 axle Baldwins).

Alco C636B or C636PB since I'm not sure how it would be classified (Santa Fe solicited proposals for both A & B units and EMD and Alco offered both while GE refused to consider a booster).

U33C with a cowl to compete against the F45.

U50C with FB-3 trucks for customers other than Union Pacific (UP's reused trucks from their turbines). GE released a drawing of this when the U50C was announced. 

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Posted by NorthWest on Sunday, November 3, 2013 11:00 PM

Thanks for wading through that thread. I looked, but after finding some that were never offered listed as if they were , I stopped looking. Thanks for taking the time. I'll update the list soon.

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Posted by Leo_Ames on Sunday, November 3, 2013 11:57 PM

Just thought of another one that was at least planned and a new builder for your list.

An AC version of the MK5000C. But MK's troubles, issues with the CAT power plant, and the difficulty of breaking into a market long dominated by EMD and GE killed it off before anything more than the initial DC prototypes were finished. According to a post at Trainboard.com I just found when looking to confirm if it would've been designated as a MK5000AC, it would've came in 5500 HP (MK5500AC) and 6000 HP (MK6000AC) varieties. So it technically was never offered but was very much planned. 

It also lists without any sort of information a AC7100CW, a SD55 (Which sounds vaguely familiar), a HR612 (Not sure I believe this as he also lists the HR616 as having never been built which isn't accurate), B32-9W. M430W (Makes sense as a Canadian follow up to the C430 and a Canadian cab for Canadian National that was taking it on their new locomotives like GP40-2W's  so I'm inclined to believe this one), and a C436.

Edit: SD55, at least when I've seen it used, is a Montana Rail Link designation for a SD9 rebuilt with microprocessor controls. So if that's the context it's being used in rather than an official EMD product, it certainly doesn't qualify. 

And a search for M430W brings up a big thread dedicated to this topic. Might be worth digging through for some leads.

http://forum.atlasrr.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=61369&whichpage=13

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Posted by carnej1 on Monday, November 4, 2013 11:18 AM

Leo_Ames

Just thought of another one that was at least planned and a new builder for your list.

An AC version of the MK5000C. But MK's troubles, issues with the CAT power plant, and the difficulty of breaking into a market long dominated by EMD and GE killed it off before anything more than the initial DC prototypes were finished. According to a post at Trainboard.com I just found when looking to confirm if it would've been designated as a MK5000AC, it would've came in 5500 HP (MK5500AC) and 6000 HP (MK6000AC) varieties. So it technically was never offered but was very much planned. 

It also lists without any sort of information a AC7100CW, a SD55 (Which sounds vaguely familiar), a HR612 (Not sure I believe this as he also lists the HR616 as having never been built which isn't accurate), B32-9W. M430W (Makes sense as a Canadian follow up to the C430 and a Canadian cab for Canadian National that was taking it on their new locomotives like GP40-2W's  so I'm inclined to believe this one), and a C436.

Edit: SD55, at least when I've seen it used, is a Montana Rail Link designation for a SD9 rebuilt with microprocessor controls. So if that's the context it's being used in rather than an official EMD product, it certainly doesn't qualify. 

And a search for M430W brings up a big thread dedicated to this topic. Might be worth digging through for some leads.

http://forum.atlasrr.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=61369&whichpage=13

Leo_Ames

Just thought of another one that was at least planned and a new builder for your list.

An AC version of the MK5000C. But MK's troubles, issues with the CAT power plant, and the difficulty of breaking into a market long dominated by EMD and GE killed it off before anything more than the initial DC prototypes were finished. According to a post at Trainboard.com I just found when looking to confirm if it would've been designated as a MK5000AC, it would've came in 5500 HP (MK5500AC) and 6000 HP (MK6000AC) varieties. So it technically was never offered but was very much planned. 

It also lists without any sort of information a AC7100CW, a SD55 (Which sounds vaguely familiar), a HR612 (Not sure I believe this as he also lists the HR616 as having never been built which isn't accurate), B32-9W. M430W (Makes sense as a Canadian follow up to the C430 and a Canadian cab for Canadian National that was taking it on their new locomotives like GP40-2W's  so I'm inclined to believe this one), and a C436.

Edit: SD55, at least when I've seen it used, is a Montana Rail Link designation for a SD9 rebuilt with microprocessor controls. So if that's the context it's being used in rather than an official EMD product, it certainly doesn't qualify. 

And a search for M430W brings up a big thread dedicated to this topic. Might be worth digging through for some leads.

http://forum.atlasrr.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=61369&whichpage=13

Regarding the AC7100CW; General Electric did build a prototype 18 cylinder version of the HDL engine and there was discussion of it's potential use in locomtives. The actual model probably would have been an "AC6800CW" as the 7,000 rating was BHP....

 

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Posted by Leo_Ames on Monday, November 4, 2013 3:55 PM

Did a bit of Googling with SD55 and it appears like it was possibly linked with a production version of EMD's SD45X rated at 4200 HP before EMD decided to not raise any horsepower ratings for their Dash 2 line. 

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Posted by SSW9389 on Tuesday, November 5, 2013 4:26 AM

The Pakistan units amount to FPA-2s riding on A1A trucks. There is a drawing of them in Steinbrenner' p 307. There is a roster of the FCA-3s on The Diesel Shop, they predate the Alco DL500 World Locomotive by several years.

The last 244 engine FA-2/FB-2s were built to Alco specification DL212B/DL213B. The MLW FPA-4/FPB-4s were built to specifications DL218/DL219. See Steinbrener page 355. The in between specifications DL214/DL215 and DL216/DL217 may have been your elusive FA-3/FB-3.

Alco achieved 2400 horsepower with a modified 244G engine in early 1954. These engines were instaleld in the first two RSD-7 demonstrators, model DL600. The production version of the modified engine was the 244H or so called Alco 250. Some of your unbuilt Alcos trace to the time period when the 244 engine was phasing out at Alco and the 251 was still being tested.  See Steinbrenner pp346-348 or read the Wikipedia RSD-7 article.   

 

 

 

Leo_Ames

NorthWest
Any more? There is some mention of other un-built Baldwins, Limas and models that were offered and not built by Bombardier when they purchased MLW. And what of the Alco FA-3?

Since Canada got FPA-4's, I suppose we should include the FA-4 since I'm sure that they'd of been happy to build one without a steam generator.  Wikipedia claims that Pakistan got 23 FCA-3's so maybe there's our FA-3?

It lacks a designation in the story, but according to excellent article from November 1966 Trains by J. David Ingles that chronicled the American history of the Alco PA line up to that time, what was a PA-4 had been cataloged for 1954.

The PA-4 (Not to be mixed up with the four rebuilt Santa Fe PA-1's on the Delaware & Hudson) would've had 2,400 HP but none were ever ordered due to the decline in the passenger trade and growing dissatisfaction with Alco products including the widespread demotion of earlier PA's to secondary services. 

And according to Wikipedia, this was what the PA-3 really was supposed to be and it suggests that 1952 and 1953 PA-3's with the water cooled turbocharger, the lack of the rain run-off trough, and other changes were really just PA-2's despite being widely classified as PA-3's.

One way or another though, there seems to have been an unbuilt 2,400 HP model in the line. 

[

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Posted by NorthWest on Tuesday, November 5, 2013 11:35 PM

Thanks guys. I'm busy now, but I'll do some more research and update the list this weekend. In the meantime, keep up the good work!

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Posted by narig01 on Wednesday, November 6, 2013 12:48 PM
Just a wild thought.
EMD produced FL-9 through 1960 and E-9's through to 1964. And at the same time the SD-24. Could they have produced on an FP-9 frame a locomotive with a 567D3 engine.

Thx IGN
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Posted by NorthWest on Monday, November 11, 2013 3:19 PM

This will be a series of postings, following research of prior postings, as I have time to do it today.

So far:

U25BG

C636PB

U33CG

U18C is not, as it was built as an export model, in a couple of generations.

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Posted by NorthWest on Monday, November 11, 2013 3:56 PM

Can't find anything about an AC7100CW...

Navigating Google Books:

The SD55 seems to be offered, and essentially be a production SD45X, but apparently not offered in the -2 catalogue. This is 210HP/Cylinder, 15 less than the later SD50, and considering the issues with them, it is probably a good thing that  EMD decided to drop this model.

Scroll down to Railfan & Railroad magazine: https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&hl=en&q=EMD+SD55

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Posted by NorthWest on Monday, November 11, 2013 4:05 PM
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Posted by Leo_Ames on Monday, November 11, 2013 8:55 PM

NorthWest
U18C is not, as it was built as an export model, in a couple of generations.

They're very different looking beast from what we can picture a domestic U18C looking like though which would've been 6-7' longer most likely with CC trucks being the prime visual difference but otherwise with an extremely similar family appearance to the U18B and other domestic U-Boats from that era.

So I'm not entirely sure that excluding that as a not produced model is exactly accurate just because they share a model designation with members of GE's export line. But it's obviously your call. :)

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Posted by NorthWest on Monday, November 11, 2013 9:37 PM

Leo Ames,

I think I will include that, with a caveat mentioning that it would be an extension of the domestic U18B.

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Posted by NorthWest on Monday, November 11, 2013 9:44 PM

Updated List

GE

B18-7

U25BG

U18C-North American extension of the U18B

U56

U18BT

U15BT

U33CG

B40-8(B)

C23-7

B28-7

C28-7

B23-8

EMD

DD40A

SD55

AMT-125

RB3600

GMDH-2

SD40-2B

GP2000

SD39-2

SDL39-2

SD59

SD49

TR12

F45B

TR9

M-K

MK5000AC

MK6000AC

F-M

CFA-24

CFB-24

CPB-20

CPB-24

ALCO

PA-3

FA-4

C428

C620

C624

C636F

C636P(A)

C636PB

C650DH

RSD-33

Railpower

RP20BH

Ingalls

3-S

16-S

5-S

17A

MLW

RSC-23

RS-13

RS-24

Bombardier

HR416

HR618

HR406

Lima

800 HP BB road switcher

1600 HP center cab C-C road switcher/transfer

2400 HP center cab C-C road switcher/transfer 

3200 HP CC cab unit powered by 6 free piston generators powering a turbine. 

1600 HP Switcher Combo

2400HP Switcher Combo

Baldwin

1000 HP C-C Road Switcher

1500 HP C-C Road Transfer (streamlined car body)

3000 HP A1A-A1A Road Locomotive

____________________________________________

Now, about the C436, M430W, and SW750, does anyone have anymore information?

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Friday, November 29, 2013 10:15 AM

Model designations for GE export models in the Universal series often overlap with domestic models and GE was known for recycling model designations for different models.  Export U18's were quite different from domestic U18's.

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