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Diesels Catalogued, but not Built

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Posted by Will Davis on Thursday, September 5, 2013 9:30 AM

The M640 was built with an 18 cylinder 251F. 

The 18-251 in that locomotive was unusual but not impossible to find elsewhere.  For example, I can tell you that the Diablo Canyon nuclear generating station has six of these 18 cylinder engines as EDG (Emergency Diesel Generator) equipment. 

Fairbanks-Morse now has the ALCO 251 line, and their brochure (which lists the 18 cylinder engine as well as numerous other smaller examples) can be found here:

http://www.fairbanksmorse.com/bin/90.pdf

One note:  You WILL see a 16-251F in this brochure with a gross rating of 4000 BHP, but bear in mind that this is a more modern development... and still would not have resulted in a 4000 HP rating for a locomotive, since this is engine gross or brake horsepower and not installed horsepower for traction in a locomotive.

-Will Davis

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Thursday, September 5, 2013 10:06 AM

The M640 was indeed built with V-18 251 engine.

The Baldwin road transfer locomotive has a definite resemblance to the R-615E which was built for export to Argentina.  It was intended to serve as competition to the Alco World Locomotive (DL-500), which turned up in Argentina, Spain, Greece, India, Pakistan, Australia, Peru and possibly other places.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by Leo_Ames on Thursday, September 5, 2013 10:32 AM

I wonder how all his research could indicate otherwise. It's a pretty widely known fact among Alco/MLW aficionados that the M640 had a 18 cylinder Alco 251 for its heart. 

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Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, September 5, 2013 1:03 PM

I'll have to admit I had forgotten that the M640 had the two extra cylinders.

EMD was supposed to have considered something like an SDL39-2 (the original SDL39 had a lot of dash-2 parts anyway) but a combination of MILW's bankruptcy and an oversupply of used locomotives killed it before it got too far. 

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Posted by Overmod on Thursday, September 5, 2013 2:27 PM

NorthWest

dmoore74
Ingalls Shipbuilding of Pascagoula, MS, listed 5 different locomotive models they planned to build.

Yes, the

3-S

16-S

5-S

17A

Good thoughts  everyone, keep it up!

Just out of curiosity -- is there a catalog reference to a 2000 hp locomotive?  And are there sources for plans of these locomotives?  Because I have just found some.

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Posted by Leo_Ames on Thursday, September 5, 2013 10:01 PM

Santa Fe wanted a cabless B40-8 just like their GP60B's but the savings for the special order weren't enough to justify it so they came equipped with the new North American cab. 

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Posted by carnej1 on Friday, September 6, 2013 3:27 PM

Leo_Ames

Santa Fe wanted a cabless B40-8 just like their GP60B's but the savings for the special order weren't enough to justify it so they came equipped with the new North American cab. 

Actually as I recall, GE actually wanted more per locomotive for the proposed booster units than they were charging for a conventional cab B40-8 so the idea was dropped.

 A few years before GE had delivered a large order of B30-7Ab (3,000 HP 12-FDL) booster units to BN but by the time ATSF made the request the builder decided than anything that required major engineering changes from the standard catalog models was going to cost extra..

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Posted by NorthWest on Friday, September 6, 2013 10:24 PM

Overmod
Just out of curiosity -- is there a catalog reference to a 2000 hp locomotive?

Overmod, the 17A is listed at 2000 HP, having two 8-cylinder engines. AIA-AIA cab unit. 

Overmod
And are there sources for plans of these locomotives?

No, this is from a book were Ingalls is just a footnote...

Some more:

SD59,

SD49

NW

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Posted by caldreamer on Saturday, September 7, 2013 9:42 AM

Actually both the GP49 and GP59 were built in quantities.  The 9 GP49's were woned by ther Alaska Railroad, now retired and sold off.  There were 46 Gp 59's built, 3 EMD kept the otehr 33 are still in service for the Norfolk southern.  One of them was involved itne Grantville SC accident and was rebuilt.

    Ira

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Posted by NorthWest on Saturday, September 7, 2013 10:17 AM

Hi Ira,

Yes, the GP49 and GP59 were built, but not their C-C cousins. The SD49 and SD59 weren't built.

Regards,

NW

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Posted by caldreamer on Saturday, September 7, 2013 12:27 PM

Please forgive my typeing.  There werte 36 not 46 GP59's built.  2 EMD kept the other 33 are still ont Norfolk southern roster.

   Ira

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Posted by Leo_Ames on Saturday, September 7, 2013 1:42 PM

carnej1

Leo_Ames

Santa Fe wanted a cabless B40-8 just like their GP60B's but the savings for the special order weren't enough to justify it so they came equipped with the new North American cab. 

Actually as I recall, GE actually wanted more per locomotive for the proposed booster units than they were charging for a conventional cab B40-8 so the idea was dropped.

Thanks for clarifying it. 

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Posted by NorthWest on Saturday, September 7, 2013 11:19 PM

Here's another:

The EMD TR12, a cow-calf SW1200 set.

Keep it up,

 

NW

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Posted by Leo_Ames on Thursday, September 12, 2013 9:52 PM

I've read once or twice that back in the early to mid 1960's when FM power was still common and they were soliciting for rebuild business that there were rebuild proposals that included new carbodies.

Never saw any more detail than that but I assume that they had in mind accepting Erie builts & C-Liners, rebuilding the major components, and reinstalling them on what was otherwise new hood units. 

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Saturday, September 14, 2013 10:02 AM

I believe that MKT took FM up on its rebuilding program and had their H16-44's rebuilt, this occuring at a time when MKT Baldwins and Alco's were being re-powered with 567 engines.

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Posted by Leo_Ames on Saturday, September 14, 2013 2:49 PM

I believe that just like Baldwin, they did a pretty brisk business of rebuilding and assisting in rebuilding FM's (Usually switchers) in-kind back during the 1960's. It was their primary rail focus during that time although a few locomotives were built for Mexico and their was consideration of launching a 3,600 HP six axle road switcher. 

I'm not aware of just who did the work, but Milwaukee Road's switcher fleet was another that was upgraded and rebuilt with FM's assistance for another example. I believe that quite a few of those even got brand new OP's installed. That's a big reason why they were able to last so long with little maintenance throughout the 70's.

In retrospect, it's surprising that Katy rebuilt their H-16-44's. 5 FM's in a fleet that was standardizing on EMD at the time seems almost a given for being replaced. Never knew how long they lasted afterwards but I have seen a picture of them at Beloit being rebuilt. 

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Posted by Leo_Ames on Monday, September 16, 2013 7:57 PM

It's not entirely suitable for this thread since I'm talking about a potential rebuild rather than something officially offered by a builder, but it didn't seem worth creating a thread just to ask. Did MK rebuild for Delaware & Hudson a wrecked U33C in about 1974 with an Alco 251?

There's a news piece in an issue of Trains Magazine from about that time that says that was underway. Meant to inquire several years ago and forgot when I bought the issue in question and first heard about it. Came across it again last night on the Trains DVD collection and figured I'd ask now. Since an internet search came up empty handed and I think this would have received a bit of recognition in the railfan community back then and be remembered today, I'm pretty sure that provides me with an answer.

But does anyone know for sure? Rebuilt in kind like I suspect actually happened or rebuilt with an Alco 251? I was able to confirm that it indeed was returned to service but that's as far as I got. 

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Tuesday, September 17, 2013 6:46 AM

Such a rebuild sounds plausible since the 251 and FDL engines are quite similar but I don't think that it happened.  The only rebuilds on D&H that involved 251 engines of which I'm aware were PA's 16-19 and RS3m's 501-508.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by CPM500 on Tuesday, September 17, 2013 8:50 AM

The unit in question was 'rebuilt' (a meaningless term) with a GE FDL. 

I recall references to a number of  N deM GE's that may have been re-engined with 251's. If anything, this may have reflected a shortage of serviceable GE engines. Unlike complete locos, parts have to be paid for in cash-which NdeM seemed to be chronically short of.

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Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, September 17, 2013 9:53 AM

In Wallace Abbey's book on Soo Line Diesels (The Little Jewel) he mentions that Alco proposed a version of the RS27 (of which Soo had two, 415 and 416) that would have used parts from Soo's F3s and F7s.  In the end, EMD built Alco-trucked versions of the GP30 instead using parts from Soo's FA1s ("Road-Freight", according to Alco...), and the F7s at least lasted until the late 1980s.

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Posted by DS4-4-1000 on Tuesday, September 17, 2013 10:55 AM

Leo_Ames
Did MK rebuild for Delaware & Hudson a wrecked U33C in about 1974 with an Alco 251?

That does remind me that GE proposed a line of "Super 7s" that would have been rebuilt from Alco Centuries and Montreal M-Liners.  Nothing came of that.

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Posted by carnej1 on Tuesday, September 17, 2013 11:22 AM

DS4-4-1000

Leo_Ames
Did MK rebuild for Delaware & Hudson a wrecked U33C in about 1974 with an Alco 251?

That does remind me that GE proposed a line of "Super 7s" that would have been rebuilt from Alco Centuries and Montreal M-Liners.  Nothing came of that.

 Actually there were Alco Centuries rebuilt in Australia ,Canada and Mexico with GE components. The Australian locomotives (owned by one of the iron ore haulers, Pilbara Rail IIRC) were frame up rebuilds with new FDL engines replacing the Alco 251s. The Canadian locomotives (again for an Ore RR) were rebuilt with some GE electronical components but nortfulll DASH 7 systems. They retained their 251 engines.

 The Dash 7 demonstrator was a Mexican locomotive, I believe..

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Posted by Leo_Ames on Tuesday, September 17, 2013 4:15 PM

DS4-4-1000

Leo_Ames
Did MK rebuild for Delaware & Hudson a wrecked U33C in about 1974 with an Alco 251?

That does remind me that GE proposed a line of "Super 7s" that would have been rebuilt from Alco Centuries and Montreal M-Liners.  Nothing came of that.

Not much but I believe they did build a demonstrator and that it stuck around at Erie for years as a test locomotive until recent years when it was sold. Retained its 251 engine that was rebuilt and upgraded along with a Super 7 style electronics package.

I think it retained its original carbody unlike the Super 7 U-Boat rebuilds that were of completely new construction above the frame other than the FDL engine being retained. 

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Posted by CPM500 on Thursday, September 19, 2013 6:10 PM

GECX 5000 was an ex-BCR M-630 remanufactured as a Super-7 design. The customer was supposed to be NdeM, who was ultimately broken up and privatized.

The most highly modified 251 powered locos are the re-man'ed OSE MX-636's and MX-627's. Among the improvements are 251 engine w/GE turbo and engine intercooler, BRIGHTSTAR controls, MDAC, new main alternator....and a whole host of other items.

CPM500

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Posted by Leo_Ames on Thursday, September 19, 2013 6:15 PM

I'd love to learn more about those.

Where do the Cartier's upgraded locomotives fit? I believe they saw a lot of electrical updates including computerized controls. So I assume they're more advanced than GE's Mexico proposal but not as advanced as these. 

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Posted by NorthWest on Sunday, October 6, 2013 6:32 PM

Okay, to get this thread more on track, I've found some more:

GE:

C23-7

B28-7

C28-7

B23-8

I'm still interested in any more models, people mentioned more not built Baldwins and Limas?  

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Posted by NorthWest on Sunday, October 6, 2013 7:10 PM

One more:

EMD F45B

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Posted by Leo_Ames on Sunday, October 6, 2013 7:36 PM

Wikipedia mentions several unbuilt Alco designs.

         
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Posted by NorthWest on Sunday, October 6, 2013 9:38 PM

Some More:

MLW

RSC-23

RS-13

RS-24

EMD

TR9

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Monday, October 7, 2013 8:33 AM

Steinbrenner in his centennial history of Alco does mention the proposed C636P.  Alco made the proposal to Santa Fe at the same time that EMD proposed the FP45 and GE proposed the U30CG.  Side drawings suggest that it would have had the Alco flatnose.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul

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