Hello all ;
Here's a very interesting 'vignette' depicting one of the existing 6 BR A4 class steamers at speed, and 'at speed', in this case means 90 plus Mph (there are reocords of 'Bittern' reaching points of 94 Mph on these trips). Prior to the viideo, a litte description of the exceptional event that made all this fast running special trips possible :
As part of the 75th anniversary of Mallard's record breaking 126mph run in 1938, sister A4 4464 Bittern was temporarily permitted to exceed from 75mph to 90mph (144.84 km/h) on the mainline. This was to be a rare look at steam running at higher speeds since the 1960's, following recent high speed test runs. On June 29th Bittern hauled a London-York special "The Ebor Streak" which ran along the A4's native racing ground the East Coast Mainline.The A4 is first seen at Langford in Bedfordshire running like a Greyhound at 90mph! After a high octane pursuit on the A1 carriageway, the next location is what better place to see an LNER A4 would be Doncaster. Ending on a high note, the A4 whistles and echoes past Doncaster Works where she, Mallard, Flying Scotsman and all other LNER locos were built.With special thanks to Locomotive Services Ltd, DBS and Network Rail for this miracle run to happen.If you all thought 75mph was fast enough, think again after seeing this! Seeing steam running at 90mph is a completely unmissable event and is worth the long distance and cost to film!These shots are now featured in the DVD documentary film "BITTERN: The Need for Speed" as part of the "MALLARD 75" celebrations. Which includes an in depth look at the preparations and build up to the main events in May/June to December, along with interviews with the crews & officals at this historic event in railway preservation history. See http://www.ovpsteam.co.uk/25.html for more details.
Can such 'fast running' trips be possible in the US someday ? Certainly there are engines capable of reaching and even exceed this speed limit (N&W 611, UP 844), but there are so few lines where that is possible, and technically, even in such lines, the engines would possibly have to get some sort of cab signal equipment
There are a couple of locations where such fast running would be possible- TTC in Pueblo, and the former ATSF now only used by the Southwest Chief. The locomotives would need some form of automatic train stop.
The ex-AT&SF via LaJunta has been left to deteriorate. Amtrak had to pay to get repaired. Are there still any 90 mph segments?
The reason I mentioned it is that it is one of the last with IIATS (historically accurate for some locomotives), and is remote enough that fast running would be less of a problem. I believe that the Surfline is also IIATS equipped, but would be more difficult as it has tresspasser issues. PTC does eliminate the ATS issues, though.
I think fast running is much overrated! It results in lots of wear and tear on the locomotives and equipment and the risk of an accident increases dramatically. A nice run at normal track speeds ought to be sufficient and addresses the need to preserve our steamers into the distant future.
JimValle I think fast running is much overrated! It results in lots of wear and tear on the locomotives and equipment and the risk of an accident increases dramatically. A nice run at normal track speeds ought to be sufficient and addresses the need to preserve our steamers into the distant future.
...and it makes the excursion last much less longer. Espeacially today when a significant portion of the people who ride are families, ect. People want it to last, so they can savor the experience and revell in the nostlagia.
If I'm gonna pay close to $200 for an excursion ticket, I want it to be a day-long event, and get the most for my money.
...and anyone who has ever ridden the Accela will know that going 90+ mph is really overated.
Remarkable video, watching the Bittern lettin' it rip on the main line. I'm really impressed with that clean stack, whoever the fireman is he really knows his business!
Now that being said, I have to agree with Jim's post about it not being such a good idea to let ireplaceable artifacts like 611 and 844 go wild out on the main line. As much as I'd love to see a drag race between the two I realize those two locomotives are just too old and too valuable to push too hard. MAYBE up to 70mph on occasion, but higher than that on a regular basis, no.
The fastest I've ever gone behind steam was on a Ross Rowland-New Jersey Transit excursion back in the 90's. NJT has a 70mph stretch through the Hackensack Meadows and C&O 614 did it easily, AND with 25 cars in tow. Quite a thrill.
And echoing what Mr. Connor said, I remember reading a magazine article about the Blue Mountain and Reading and their steam excursions back in the 90's. The steam locomotive, Pacific 425, was good for 65mph, the track was good for 65mph, put they didn't push it past 45. Why? Because the passengers wanted the ride to last!
I had the good fortune to be able to pace 3985 in northern California on two occasions while I was living in Sacramento in the early 1990s when UP only had the Western Pacific. Steve Lee had it right at 70 MPH down to Stockton from The Big Tomato on one occasion for quite a stretch.
I'd surmise that 70 MPH to go with the allotted speed for intermodal trains might allow it to fit in with the current of traffic.
I am guessing that 70 MPH was probably the top end limit of a CSA, while 844 could probably lope along all day at that rate of travel.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aH4xZXskLIg
The guys I know say that they took SLSF 1522 up to 79 mph on a couple occassions. (79mph was the max speed the engine was rated for by Amtrak.)
"It was cool" they said, but noted that the novelty soon wore off and doing a 'leisurely' 45mph was much more enjoyable for everyone.
This is still one of my all time favorite excursion era vignettes:
3985 on intermodal - 143 wells - up Archer Hill out of Cheyenne eastbound.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhgHrDbN4EU
Firelock76 Remarkable video, watching the Bittern lettin' it rip on the main line. I'm really impressed with that clean stack, whoever the fireman is he really knows his business! Now that being said, I have to agree with Jim's post about it not being such a good idea to let ireplaceable artifacts like 611 and 844 go wild out on the main line. As much as I'd love to see a drag race between the two I realize those two locomotives are just too old and too valuable to push too hard. MAYBE up to 70mph on occasion, but higher than that on a regular basis, no. The fastest I've ever gone behind steam was on a Ross Rowland-New Jersey Transit excursion back in the 90's. NJT has a 70mph stretch through the Hackensack Meadows and C&O 614 did it easily, AND with 25 cars in tow. Quite a thrill. And echoing what Mr. Connor said, I remember reading a magazine article about the Blue Mountain and Reading and their steam excursions back in the 90's. The steam locomotive, Pacific 425, was good for 65mph, the track was good for 65mph, put they didn't push it past 45. Why? Because the passengers wanted the ride to last!
Actually, on the Hobenken - Port Jervis trips, there are parts that have a 79mph speed limit, and 614 was at the speed limit!
daveklepper Why should not a locomotive designed for high speeds and having good maintenance and the necessary support not operate at those speeds given proper track conditions?
In a similar vein there is nothing worse than watching a former F1 race car plodding along a 50 MPH - it isn't what the beast was made for.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
stdgauge, 79mph? Even better! I knew we were flying at one point, but I didn't think we went that fast. Cool!
And kgbw49, neat video of 3985 at Archer Hill. I didn't know there was a "Collins Curve" way out west!
I was on an excursion behind the 611 when Claytor was running them and we ran in excess of 80 eastbound on the straight line between Petersburg, Va. and Norfolk. Later on after they had a derailment and a few folks got injured and lawyers got involved, the max speed was cut to 40 or 45 and stayed that from then on.
It wasn't just Class J's that could move on that Petersburg-Norfolk racetrack. some old-timers I've spoken to here in Virginia told me they'd chase Class A 2-6-6-4's from Route 460 which runs alongside the N&W racetrack and the A's would run away from them.
But you're the lucky guy! 80mph behind 611!
1984 video of the J at speed, plus a couple of startups - one with the hooter sounding off as the pops lift, and another with the exhaust cracking like a platoon of artillery...
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JuTlIH6c75E
All of the fast steam videos I have seen from 8/16mm film taken in the 40's and 50's show the Hudsons, Pacifics, Northerns, and the unique speed demons (PRR T1 Duplex) rapidly flashing side rods if they weren't accelerating or climbing a grade. They had 79-80" drivers (the N&W Class J had 70") for that quick-stepping purpose.
If the track conditions permit, I would love to see some higher speed running. As wisely stated earlier, if it is all done at 'limited' speeds, the show would too soon be over. I don't see why, for the benefit of video recording run-pasts, for example, that some of the running shouldn't be at high speeds. The rest can be the sedate enjoyment rate that most of us like. It needn't be an either/or proposition.
If any of you have ever viewed some of the promo films put out by the Pennsy in the early 50's, you may have seen that one about the engineer who runs the Duplex. At speed, it was a thing of beauty the way its twin-driverd engines worked with the short rods housing roller bearings.
I saw the train in the originally posted video on 29 June 2013.
In fact I arranged a round the world trip from Australia via the USA to London, scheduled to arrive in the UK on the morning of 28 June, so I could check up on photo locations on the East Coast Main Line. I was planning to go to Alexandra Palace to watch the train go though.
Sadly, on the evening of the 27th June bad weather hit the US East Coast and my American Airlines flight to New York from Washington DC National was cancelled. American did a reasonable job and booked me next morning on a flight from Chicago to London (and a connecting flight from National to Chicago, of course). This at least got me to my pre-booked hotel in Paddington at midnight on the 28th.
I rose early and caught the Circle line to Kings Cross, where I decided to take my chances (and photos) at the terminus since I had no opportunity to check the on-line locations. "Bittern" arrived on a good platform for photographs and I was quite happy with the shots, particularly the departure...
M636C
So it will be moving at the sort of speeds it the A4's where designed for.
In this day and age 75mph is rather slow thats suburban passanger train speed.
There are three things that slow a steamer down the track can it handle the speed.
The design was it designed for speed or not.
and how fast the fireman or firemen can shovel coal into the fire box.
regards John
very cool to see steamers running that fast. And to hear about them doing it. I've seen #1522, rode with #765, #611 and #844 but all had to do lower speed limits.
Probably because of what happened to #611 mentioned in another post with an derailment and injuries. Thx to all for sharing.
Here is a video of UP 844 on an excursion in 2010, really pickin' 'em up and layin' 'em down. Ostensibly 75 mph.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HRTYNxtbnjI
Beautiful!
I appreciated the closeups of the working of the valve gear.
Thank you
Johnny
Nice Gyro-stablized camera, too! Excellent... even if the car was exceeding the speedlimit on the parallel highway!
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
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