daveklepper Posted before on an older thread: The AT&SF Ripley 2-10-4s were the best non-articulated freight locomotives built.
Posted before on an older thread: The AT&SF Ripley 2-10-4s were the best non-articulated freight locomotives built.
Dave, I would have asked the person offering that statement to explain himself. I think a good argument could be made that the ATSF 5010 series were the finest, but those riding the Pennsy J1 locomotives were mightily impressed with them.
tomstamey They often were used on passenger trains in WWII. Two were stationed in Longview Tx to handle the Sunshine Special of the T&P and MP due to length of trains between Texarkana and Longview. Many handled not only troop trains but regular scheduled trains extra sections and they could keep the schedules.
Do you know what was a typical length for the Sunshine Special between Texarkana and Longview during that time? I´m thinking about a Sunshine Special passenger train for the upcoming BLI T&P 2-10-4 in HO scale, so I would like to know more about the consist. Even more so I would like to know the paint scheme of the late heavyweight Sunshine Special. There are some nice heavyweight cars by Rivarossi and Branchline, painted into the blue and white Eagle scheme. I wonder if they would be ok for a T&P/MP heavyweight train powered by a 2-10-4, or if the cars should rather be dark green/olive green.
Yay misinformation! ATSF 5000 was never a 2-10-2, that was 3829 that was part of an order of 2-10-2s that was fitted with a 4 wheel trailing truck. ATSF 5000 'Madame Queen' was built from the start as a 2-10-4 and as per the brilliant steamlocomotive.com website:
"The Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe Railroad flirted with the 2-10-4 wheel arrangement for 19 years before it placed an order for more than one locomotive. The flirting began in 1919, with experimental number 3829, the 2-10-2 that was fitted with a four-wheel trailing truck. The second flirtation occurred with the delivery of number 5000, a single 2-10-4 locomotive in 1930. This Baldwin built, 502,600 pound "Texas" type locomotive had 69" dia. drivers which were larger than most freight motive power at the time. From the very beginning, number 5000 was nicknamed "Madam Queen". It was this single locomotive that proved the value of the four-wheel trailing truck and high drivers on 2-10-4s and led the AT&SF to order 35 of them starting in 1938.
"Madam Queen" operated heavy freight and ran up 1,700,000 miles before it was retired in 1953. "Madam Queen" was donated to the City of Amarillo, Texas by the AT&SF in 1957. It received little upkeep and was deteriorating badly when, in 1992, a small group of railroad enthusiasts formed the Texas Panhandle Railroad Historical Society of Amarillo, Texas. The TPRHS, with the aid of the City of Amarillo, undertook a project to restore number 5000. The cosmetic restoration was completed in the summer of 1996 and the society continues to maintain the locomotive. "
As for other points, no PRR J1 type 2-10-4 was ever preserved, they were all scrapped.
"Not everything you read on the internet is true" - Abraham Lincoln
ML
The engines were orginally limited to 45 MPH. But after rebalancing in the 1939-1940 rebuilds they were good for 70 MPH with excellent riding and no rail pounding. They were described as uncommonly well balanced. They often were used on passenger trains in WWII. Two were stationed in Longview Tx to handle the Sunshine Special of the T&P and MP due to length of trains between Texarkana and Longview. If not for that the trains would have to be double headed.
Many handled not only troop trains but regular scheduled trains extra sections and they could keep the schedules.
You will find many written complaints about the 600's balance problems but that was before the rebuilds. The same rebuilding was applied to USRA light 2-8-2's which also handled passenger trains.
Tom Stamey
T&P had to contend with several long grades westbound out of Fort Worth; Ranger Hill; Baird Hill, and Clyde. The 600's were well suited to lug tonnage westward...
kgbw49 The ATSF 2-10-4 units are real engineering masterpieces. Thankfully, 69"-drivered 5000 is receiving excellent care in Amarillo. 74"-drivered 5011 class units include 5011 at the Museum of Transportation in St. Louis, 5017 at the National Railroad Museum in Green Bay, the aforementioned 5021 at the California State Railroad Museum in Sacramento, and the 5030 in a park in Sante Fe, NM. One can easily imagine one of them making short work of a mile and a half of doublestacks at track speed through New Mexico and the Texas Panhandle, no doubt, in the vein of 3985 doing the same on the UP back in the 1990s. Fast freight indeed!
The ATSF 2-10-4 units are real engineering masterpieces.
Thankfully, 69"-drivered 5000 is receiving excellent care in Amarillo.
74"-drivered 5011 class units include 5011 at the Museum of Transportation in St. Louis, 5017 at the National Railroad Museum in Green Bay, the aforementioned 5021 at the California State Railroad Museum in Sacramento, and the 5030 in a park in Sante Fe, NM.
One can easily imagine one of them making short work of a mile and a half of doublestacks at track speed through New Mexico and the Texas Panhandle, no doubt, in the vein of 3985 doing the same on the UP back in the 1990s.
Fast freight indeed!
Thanks, Kgbw49:
The Santa Fe's Texas types were pretty awsome locomotives. #5000 was not included in their block of Texas Class engines. #5000 was a one locomotive order delivered in 1930 by Baldwin Locomotive Works. It was the result of some experimentation by Santa Fe on a 2-10-2 ( later converted to a 2-10-4).
5000 was an early equivalent of what in the military jargon could be referred to as a Hangar Queen. Being a one-off model, when something broke on it, it required another replacement part be machined for replacement. It pretty much lived on the old Santa Fe Panghandle Division out of Amarillo. The reason it survived the mass scrappings of other Santa Fe Texas types(?).
The name "Madam Queen" name has grown in the 'lore' of the Santa Fe. Porportedly, it was one of the first engineers to run 5000 that gave her that nick name. And thereby is the tale.
Disclaimer: This story relates to a fictional character on an early 1920's Radio Program "Amos and Andy", a show that definitely falls in the genere of currently, "Politically Incorrect". So if you are extremely sensitized to that type of entertainment..Leave NOW!
"Amos and Andy" was the tale of a couple of Halem (NYC) Black men. The script revolved around their shenanigans as they attempted various schemes and 'cons' as they attempted to fleece temselves or others in the cast. The radio versions were, just voices, done in Black speech patterns and jargon of the day. The television show was of course actors who mimiced the original programing. IT was written and acted on radio by two white men. Freeman Gosden and Charles Correll. The TV show wa done ba an all black cast. " Madam Queen" was a local hairdresser and formidible personage and Andy's girlfriend. AT&SF #5000 apparently matched an engineers impression of the prowess of that radio "adam Queenn". The Radio Broacast lasted from 1920 through the 1950's when it went on television and lasted til the end of the 1950's.
AT&SF # 5000 currently is on display in Amarillo,Tx See link @ http://westerntrips.blogspot.com/2012/11/steam-locomotive.html
The balance of the 5001 series( 12 engines(?) of AT&SF Texas types (classed as 5011's) lasted into the late 1950's. When they went to scrap in Chicago.
But prior to that Santa Fe loaned some to the PRR to run in competetion with the Pennsy's own J1 Class engines out of Columbus ( St. Claire Roundhouse). The Pennsy had many steam locomotives still on their rooster in the late 1950's their problem was many needed expensive repairs. The Santa Fe's were a timely benefit.
See Link @ http://www.columbusrailroads.com/prr%20santa%20fe.htm
FTL:"... In early May while working around the museum we heard a whistle that was new to us. Here came a coal drag acting like a merchandise train heading north on the PRR Sandusky Branch with of all things a Santa Fe oil burning, class 5011, 2-10-4 in the lead. We expected to see a PRR J1 slogging up the hill at its normal 15-25 mph. Instead a Santa Fe class 5011 locomotive, which always seemed to be going 10 mph faster then a J1 powered train, was in the lead. .."
There isn't a Southern California Railway Historical Society to the best of my knowledge and BNSF didn't donate such a locomotive.
The Santa Fe collection was donated to the California State Railroad Museum in 1986 by the Santa Fe, which included 2-10-4 #5021. She wasn't operational, having last steamed in 1957 in helper service on Abo Pass in New Mexico. But she had spent most of retirement indoors, including residing in the Albuquerque roundhouse from the 1970's until 1986.
Sadly, demolition forced finding a home for them as Santa Fe's program of demolishing unused structures in the late 80's and 90's caught up with their home. The California State Railroad Museum seemingly has been unable to properly accomodate them ever since, much to the detriment of the collection. But at least one piece has escaped to greener pastures.
I suspect the 5021 is the locomotive that you recall.
The Texas and Pacific 600s as they were first constructed had a terrible problem with driver balance. One engine having kinked the rails across miles of Texas main line. I believe a speed limit of 40 mph was put on the engines in freight service. Piston thrusts were too high that the moving parts could not be balanced in 63 inch driving wheels. TP 600's had 63 inch drivers. Apparently a redesign was accomplished by the railroad which allowed better speed performance but high speed passenger engines they were not. T&P loved the 600s and had a huge fleet in several classes. Boiler pressure was 255 PSI.
If I remember Graham Claytor when he revived TP 610 thought they had tremendous power when working on the Southern and it seems their pulling power was never really explored by Southern. After running 2-8-2 SR 4501 it was a relief to have TP 610 pulling power. This was of course before Claytor got his hands on NW 611 and NW 1218 both of which re-established the meaning of performance for the Southern steam program.
The 2-10-4 Texas type engine performance really peaked with AT&SF's massive engines built in 1938 with 310 PSI boiler pressure and 30 X 34 in cylinders. Remember ATSF got burned on articulated steam power with its hinged boiler experiments early in the century and so they went to the Texas type in the late 30's.
Equipped with 74 inch driving wheels, these engines recorded the highest piston thrust ever achieved by steam at 219,000 lbs. The frames on these monsters were cast steel 7 inches thick. The diameter of the axles on the driving wheels was 15 inches in diameter.
One of these massive engines ATSF 5021 remained in mint condition in Belen, New Mexico on Santa Fe property and near operational condition into the 1990's until BNSF gave it away to California State Railroad Museum where it has sadly lanquished in outside storage not on display.
ATSF 5021 is now boarded up painted in primer and missing most of its hardware - presumably to keep vandals from stripping the locomotive. Come on! This is not really appropriate for a mint class one steamer preserved to this late date. It really belongs in Pamona just as it was dragged from the Belen roundhouse. I guess thanks BNSF for not scrapping it! But it could have been easily made operational at that time. Go figure!
Equally fine C&O 2-10-4 Texas type engines were built in 1930 with 260 PSI boiler pressure. These engines solved the driver balance problem with the use of 69 inch driving wheels. I am not really too framiliar with them except they competed in pulling coal drags with C&O 2-6-6-6's. Sadly none of these survive.
And lets also not forget the massive Pennsy J-1 2-10-4 Texas type engines with 69 inch drivers which exceeded Santa Fe's total engine weight by 30,000 lbs. 545,000 lbs vs. 575,000 lbs. None of these survive, also both of these engines PRR and ATSF engines had 75,000 lbs axle loadings.
In 1925 it was the Texas and Pacific 600's that gave the 2-10-4 wheel type its name but T&P never perfected the design. The "superpower design" credited to Woodward was really all about the massive firebox that a 2-10-4 could have over a 2-10-2. Similar evolution can be found in what the NYC 4-6-4 had over 4-6-2 and which C&O discovered again with the 2-6-6-6. Superpower was really all about the firebox because it was the massive furnace size that made all the steam.
Doc
- edited per Leo Ames and ML observations -
I really like this engine. It in good shape too. The only thing that's keeps her from running is the lack of space to do so. She could run again. But there ate some hurdles the Texas state railroad need to deal with I think.
I have always admired T&P's 600 series 2-10-4's.
A few corrections/clarifications, if I may:
First, the 600's were not precursors of Will Woodard's Super Power philosophy; they were exemplars of it. They represented a logical extension of the ideas represented by NYC 8000 and the A-1 Berkshire. It's true that further developments resulted in later refinements of the design, the Van Sweringen Berkshires being the prime example, but the T&P's seventy 2-10-4 engines were undeniably Super Power.
Also, they were most certainly not "fast passenger engines", notwithstanding the fact that they could, indeed, reach seventy miles per hour. T&P's 900 series 4-8-2's filled that role. They may have been used on passenger trains in T&P service, but they were designed to be freight engines, as attested by their relatively small (63-1/2") drivers. It's true that 610 was used to haul passenger excursion trains in the post-steam period, but that was more a matter of availability than suitability. Many freight engines (GTW 4070; Southern's 4501, 630, and 722; Strasburg 90 et. al.) have been used to haul passenger excursion trains, but that doesn't change their intended use. 610 was designed to haul freight.
It's sad to think she is the only survivor of her breed. A sister engine was donated to the City of Dallas, but was scrapped after sustaining relatively minor damage from vandals.
I might add that reliance on the Internet for this kind of information is a bit risky.
Tom
Read with some interest about the UPRR 2-10-2 # 5511 on another concurrent Thread here. Its Still on the UPR property, but still in their Steam Heritage Roundhouse at Cheyenne.
My thoughts immediately went to memories of the #610 which was rebuilt around 1974/75, and pulled the American Freedom Train, then went to work for the Southern Rwy in their original Steam program. See linked photos @
http://freedomtrain.org/american-freedom-train-consist-610-texas-and-pacific-today.htm
#610 was campaigned by the Southern Rwy for about four years from 1977 to 1981 (?). I saw her in operation on several occasions around the Birmingham to Chattanooga areas. See linked photo at Bluefield WV @ http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=514002&nseq=1
THe T&P RR 600 Series engines were constructed to be fast passenger engines (70 mph) in the late 1920's In the early 1950's she was sent to be displayed in FT.Worth and was rescued for the participation on the AFT of 1976. She went back to Texas after her participation in the SR's Steam Program to the Texas State RR at Palestine, Tx.
THe T&P 600's were precursors of the Lima " Superpower' engine types. They were fast passenger types. See linked photo of #610 Chattanooga,Tn in 1980 @ http://abpr.railfan.net/august99/08-27-99/610.jpg
Here is 4501 and 610 inn 1977: linked @ http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=71762&nseq=72
See this link to ASME site for notation on T&P RR #610 @ https://www.asme.org/about-asme/who-we-are/engineering-history/landmarks/137-texas-pacific-steam-locomotive
FTL:...The Texas & Pacific 610 is the sole surviving example of the earliest form of the super-power steam locomotives built by the Lima Locomotive Works from 1925 to 1949. The super-power locomotives were the first to combine a high-capacity boiler with a modern valve gear and a four-wheel trailing truck. The performance of these locomotives was unprecedented, and they were the prototype for the modern American steam locomotive through the end of the steam age for rail. The chief design engineer was William E. Woodard (1873-1942), mechanical engineer, Lima Locomotive Works.
Number 610 was the first of the T & P's second order of 2-10-4s delivered June 1927. The I-A1's differed from the first order slightly in that they were built with American multiple-valve throttles that allowed room for their stacks to be capped with decorative flanges, a favorite detail on the T & P. The boiler pressure was also raised from 250 to 255 psig, which increased tractive effort to 84,600 pounds, plus 13,300 pounds for the booster..."
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.