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Texas and Pacific RR #610 A 2-10-4 TEXAS

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Texas and Pacific RR #610 A 2-10-4 TEXAS
Posted by samfp1943 on Monday, February 16, 2015 2:35 PM

Read with some interest about the UPRR 2-10-2 # 5511 on another concurrent Thread here. Its Still on the UPR property, but still in their Steam Heritage Roundhouse at Cheyenne.

My thoughts immediately went to memories of the #610 which was rebuilt around 1974/75, and pulled the American Freedom Train, then went to work for the Southern Rwy  in their original Steam program.  See linked photos @ 

   http://freedomtrain.org/american-freedom-train-consist-610-texas-and-pacific-today.htm  

#610 was campaigned by the Southern Rwy for about four years from 1977 to 1981 (?).  I saw her in operation on several occasions around the Birmingham to Chattanooga areas. See linked photo at Bluefield WV @ http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=514002&nseq=1

THe T&P RR 600 Series engines were constructed to be fast passenger engines (70 mph) in the late 1920's     In the early 1950's she was sent to be displayed in FT.Worth and was rescued for the participation on the AFT of 1976.  She went back to Texas after her participation in the SR's Steam Program to the Texas State RR at Palestine, Tx. 

THe T&P 600's were precursors of the Lima " Superpower' engine types. They were fast passenger types. See linked photo of #610 Chattanooga,Tn in 1980  @ http://abpr.railfan.net/august99/08-27-99/610.jpg

Here is 4501 and 610 inn 1977: linked @ http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=71762&nseq=72

See this link to ASME site for notation on T&P RR #610 @  https://www.asme.org/about-asme/who-we-are/engineering-history/landmarks/137-texas-pacific-steam-locomotive

FTL:...The Texas & Pacific 610 is the sole surviving example of the earliest form of the super-power steam locomotives built by the Lima Locomotive Works from 1925 to 1949. The super-power locomotives were the first to combine a high-capacity boiler with a modern valve gear and a four-wheel trailing truck. The performance of these locomotives was unprecedented, and they were the prototype for the modern American steam locomotive through the end of the steam age for rail. The chief design engineer was William E. Woodard (1873-1942), mechanical engineer, Lima Locomotive Works.

Number 610 was the first of the T & P's second order of 2-10-4s delivered June 1927. The I-A1's differed from the first order slightly in that they were built with American multiple-valve throttles that allowed room for their stacks to be capped with decorative flanges, a favorite detail on the T & P. The boiler pressure was also raised from 250 to 255 psig, which increased tractive effort to 84,600 pounds, plus 13,300 pounds for the booster..."

Sam

 

 


 

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Posted by ACY on Monday, February 16, 2015 4:43 PM

I have always admired T&P's 600 series 2-10-4's.

A few corrections/clarifications, if I may:

First, the 600's were not precursors of Will Woodard's Super Power philosophy; they were exemplars of it.  They represented a logical extension of the ideas represented by NYC 8000 and the A-1 Berkshire.  It's true that further developments resulted in later refinements of the design, the Van Sweringen Berkshires being the prime example, but the T&P's seventy 2-10-4 engines were undeniably Super Power. 

Also, they were most certainly not "fast passenger engines", notwithstanding the fact that they could, indeed, reach seventy miles per hour.  T&P's 900 series 4-8-2's filled that role.  They may have been used on passenger trains in T&P service, but they were designed to be freight engines, as attested by their relatively small (63-1/2") drivers.  It's true that 610 was used to haul passenger excursion trains in the post-steam period, but that was more a matter of availability than suitability.  Many freight engines (GTW 4070; Southern's 4501, 630, and 722; Strasburg 90 et. al.) have been used to haul passenger excursion trains, but that doesn't change their intended use.  610 was designed to haul freight.

It's sad to think she is the only survivor of her breed.  A sister engine was donated to the City of Dallas, but was scrapped after sustaining relatively minor damage from vandals.

I might add that reliance on the Internet for this kind of information is a bit risky.

Tom  

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Posted by JOSEPH the steam buff on Monday, February 16, 2015 6:22 PM

I really like this engine.   It in good shape too.   The only thing that's keeps her from running is the lack of space to do so.   She could run again.   But there ate some hurdles the Texas state railroad need to deal with I think.

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Posted by Dr D on Monday, February 16, 2015 10:16 PM

The Texas and Pacific 600s as they were first constructed had a terrible problem with driver balance. One engine having kinked the rails across miles of Texas main line.  I believe a speed limit of 40 mph was put on the engines in freight service.  Piston thrusts were too high that the moving parts could not be balanced in 63 inch driving wheels.  TP 600's had 63 inch drivers.  Apparently a redesign was accomplished by the railroad which allowed better speed performance but high speed passenger engines they were not.  T&P loved the 600s and had a huge fleet in several classes.  Boiler pressure was 255 PSI.  

If I remember Graham Claytor when he revived TP 610 thought they had tremendous power when working on the Southern and it seems their pulling power was never really explored by Southern.  After running 2-8-2 SR 4501 it was a relief to have TP 610 pulling power.  This was of course before Claytor got his hands on NW 611 and NW 1218 both of which re-established the meaning of performance for the Southern steam program.

The 2-10-4 Texas type engine performance really peaked with AT&SF's massive engines built in 1938 with 310 PSI boiler pressure and 30 X 34 in cylinders.  Remember ATSF got burned on articulated steam power with its hinged boiler experiments early in the century and so they went to the Texas type in the late 30's.  

Equipped with 74 inch driving wheels, these engines recorded the highest piston thrust ever achieved by steam at 219,000 lbs.  The frames on these monsters were cast steel 7 inches thick.  The diameter of the axles on the driving wheels was 15 inches in diameter.  

One of these massive engines ATSF 5021 remained in mint condition in Belen, New Mexico on Santa Fe property and near operational condition into the 1990's until BNSF gave it away to California State Railroad Museum where it has sadly lanquished in outside storage not on display.  

ATSF 5021 is now boarded up painted in primer and missing most of its hardware - presumably to keep vandals from stripping the locomotive.  Come on!  This is not really appropriate for a mint class one steamer preserved to this late date.  It really belongs in Pamona just as it was dragged from the Belen roundhouse.  I guess thanks BNSF for not scrapping it!  But it could have been easily made operational at that time.  Go figure!

Equally fine C&O 2-10-4 Texas type engines were built in 1930 with 260 PSI boiler pressure.  These engines solved the driver balance problem with the use of 69 inch driving wheels.  I am not really too framiliar with them except they competed in pulling coal drags with C&O 2-6-6-6's.  Sadly none of these survive.

And lets also not forget the massive Pennsy J-1 2-10-4 Texas type engines with 69 inch drivers which exceeded Santa Fe's total engine weight by 30,000 lbs.  545,000 lbs vs. 575,000 lbs.  None of these survive, also both of these engines PRR and ATSF engines had 75,000 lbs axle loadings.

In 1925 it was the Texas and Pacific 600's that gave the 2-10-4 wheel type its name but T&P never perfected the design.  The "superpower design" credited to Woodward was really all about the massive firebox that a 2-10-4 could have over a 2-10-2.  Similar evolution can be found in what the NYC 4-6-4 had over 4-6-2 and which C&O discovered again with the 2-6-6-6.  Superpower was really all about the firebox because it was the massive furnace size that made all the steam.

Doc

- edited per Leo Ames and ML observations -

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Posted by Leo_Ames on Monday, February 16, 2015 10:43 PM

There isn't a Southern California Railway Historical Society to the best of my knowledge and BNSF didn't donate such a locomotive.

The Santa Fe collection was donated to the California State Railroad Museum in 1986 by the Santa Fe, which included 2-10-4 #5021. She wasn't operational, having last steamed in 1957 in helper service on Abo Pass in New Mexico. But she had spent most of retirement indoors, including residing in the Albuquerque roundhouse from the 1970's until 1986.

Sadly, demolition forced finding a home for them as Santa Fe's program of demolishing unused structures in the late 80's and 90's caught up with their home. The California State Railroad Museum seemingly has been unable to properly accomodate them ever since, much to the detriment of the collection. But at least one piece has escaped to greener pastures. 

I suspect the 5021 is the locomotive that you recall.

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Posted by kgbw49 on Tuesday, February 17, 2015 5:14 AM

The ATSF 2-10-4 units are real engineering masterpieces.

Thankfully, 69"-drivered 5000 is receiving excellent care in Amarillo.

74"-drivered 5011 class units include 5011 at the Museum of Transportation in St. Louis, 5017 at the National Railroad Museum in Green Bay,  the aforementioned 5021 at the California State Railroad Museum in Sacramento, and the 5030 in a park in Sante Fe, NM.

One can easily imagine one of them making short work of a mile and a half of doublestacks at track speed through New Mexico and  the Texas Panhandle, no doubt, in the vein of 3985 doing the same on the UP back in the 1990s.

Fast freight indeed!

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Posted by samfp1943 on Wednesday, February 18, 2015 4:44 PM

kgbw49

The ATSF 2-10-4 units are real engineering masterpieces.

Thankfully, 69"-drivered 5000 is receiving excellent care in Amarillo.

74"-drivered 5011 class units include 5011 at the Museum of Transportation in St. Louis, 5017 at the National Railroad Museum in Green Bay,  the aforementioned 5021 at the California State Railroad Museum in Sacramento, and the 5030 in a park in Sante Fe, NM.

One can easily imagine one of them making short work of a mile and a half of doublestacks at track speed through New Mexico and  the Texas Panhandle, no doubt, in the vein of 3985 doing the same on the UP back in the 1990s.

Fast freight indeed!

 

Thanks, Kgbw49:

The Santa Fe's Texas types were pretty awsome locomotives.  #5000 was not included in their block of Texas Class engines.  #5000 was a one locomotive order delivered in 1930 by Baldwin Locomotive Works. It was the result of some experimentation by Santa Fe on a 2-10-2 ( later converted to a 2-10-4). 

5000 was an early equivalent of what in the military jargon could be referred to as a Hangar Queen.  Being a one-off model, when something broke on it, it required another replacement part be machined for replacement.   It pretty much lived on the old Santa Fe Panghandle Division out of Amarillo.  The reason it survived the mass scrappings of other Santa Fe Texas types(?). 

The name "Madam Queen" name has grown in the 'lore' of the Santa Fe.  Porportedly, it was one of the first engineers to run 5000 that gave her that nick name.  And thereby is the tale.

Disclaimer: This story relates to a fictional character on an early 1920's Radio Program "Amos and Andy",  a show that definitely falls in the genere of currently, "Politically Incorrect".  So if you are extremely sensitized to that type of entertainment..Leave NOW! 

"Amos and Andy" was the tale of a couple of Halem (NYC) Black men.  The script revolved around their shenanigans as they attempted various schemes and 'cons' as they attempted to fleece temselves or others in the cast.  The radio versions were, just voices, done in Black speech patterns and jargon of the day. The television show was of course actors who mimiced the original programing. IT was written and acted on radio by two white men. Freeman Gosden and Charles Correll. The TV show wa done ba an all black cast. " Madam Queen" was a local hairdresser and formidible personage and Andy's girlfriend.   AT&SF #5000 apparently matched an engineers impression of the prowess of that radio "adam Queenn".   The Radio Broacast lasted from 1920 through the 1950's when it went on television and lasted til the end of the 1950's.

AT&SF # 5000 currently is on display in Amarillo,Tx See link @ http://westerntrips.blogspot.com/2012/11/steam-locomotive.html

 

The balance of the 5001 series( 12 engines(?) of AT&SF Texas types (classed as 5011's) lasted into the late 1950's. When they went to scrap in Chicago. 

But prior to that Santa Fe loaned some to the PRR to run in competetion with the Pennsy's own J1 Class engines out of Columbus ( St. Claire Roundhouse). The Pennsy had many steam locomotives still on their rooster in the late 1950's their problem was many needed expensive repairs.  The Santa Fe's were a timely benefit.

 

See Link @ http://www.columbusrailroads.com/prr%20santa%20fe.htm

FTL:"... In early May while working around the museum we heard a whistle that was new to us.  Here came a coal drag acting like a merchandise train heading north on the PRR Sandusky Branch with of all things a Santa Fe oil burning, class 5011, 2-10-4 in the lead.  We expected to see a PRR J1 slogging up the hill at its normal 15-25 mph.  Instead a Santa Fe class 5011 locomotive, which always seemed to be going 10 mph faster then a J1 powered train, was in the lead. .."

Sam

 

 


 

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Posted by tin can on Wednesday, February 18, 2015 5:05 PM

T&P had to contend with several long grades westbound out of Fort Worth; Ranger Hill; Baird Hill, and Clyde.  The 600's were well suited to lug tonnage westward...

Remember the tin can; the MKT's central Texas branch...
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Posted by tomstamey on Friday, May 22, 2015 1:58 PM

The engines were orginally limited to 45 MPH.  But after rebalancing in the 1939-1940 rebuilds they were good for 70 MPH with excellent riding and no rail pounding.   They were described as uncommonly well balanced.  They often were used on passenger trains in WWII.  Two were stationed in Longview Tx to handle the Sunshine Special of the T&P and MP due to length of trains between Texarkana and Longview.  If not for that the trains would have to be double headed. 

Many handled not only troop trains but regular scheduled trains extra sections and they could keep the schedules.

You will find many written complaints about the 600's balance problems but that was before the rebuilds.  The same rebuilding was applied to USRA light 2-8-2's which also handled passenger trains.

 

Tom Stamey

 

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Posted by GDRMCo on Tuesday, May 26, 2015 1:08 AM

Yay misinformation! ATSF 5000 was never a 2-10-2, that was 3829 that was part of an order of 2-10-2s that was fitted with a 4 wheel trailing truck. ATSF 5000 'Madame Queen' was built from the start as a 2-10-4 and as per the brilliant steamlocomotive.com website:

 

"The Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe Railroad flirted with the 2-10-4 wheel arrangement for 19 years before it placed an order for more than one locomotive. The flirting began in 1919, with experimental number 3829, the 2-10-2 that was fitted with a four-wheel trailing truck. The second flirtation occurred with the delivery of number 5000, a single 2-10-4 locomotive in 1930. This Baldwin built, 502,600 pound "Texas" type locomotive had 69" dia. drivers which were larger than most freight motive power at the time. From the very beginning, number 5000 was nicknamed "Madam Queen". It was this single locomotive that proved the value of the four-wheel trailing truck and high drivers on 2-10-4s and led the AT&SF to order 35 of them starting in 1938.

"Madam Queen" operated heavy freight and ran up 1,700,000 miles before it was retired in 1953. "Madam Queen" was donated to the City of Amarillo, Texas by the AT&SF in 1957. It received little upkeep and was deteriorating badly when, in 1992, a small group of railroad enthusiasts formed the Texas Panhandle Railroad Historical Society of Amarillo, Texas. The TPRHS, with the aid of the City of Amarillo, undertook a project to restore number 5000. The cosmetic restoration was completed in the summer of 1996 and the society continues to maintain the locomotive. "

 

As for other points, no PRR J1 type 2-10-4 was ever preserved, they were all scrapped.

 

"Not everything you read on the internet is true" - Abraham Lincoln

ML

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, May 27, 2015 2:49 AM

Posted before on an older thread:  The AT&SF Ripley 2-10-4s were the best non-articulated freight locomotives built.

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Posted by De Luxe on Thursday, June 04, 2015 5:54 PM

tomstamey
They often were used on passenger trains in WWII.  Two were stationed in Longview Tx to handle the Sunshine Special of the T&P and MP due to length of trains between Texarkana and Longview. Many handled not only troop trains but regular scheduled trains extra sections and they could keep the schedules.

Do you know what was a typical length for the Sunshine Special between Texarkana and Longview during that time? I´m thinking about a Sunshine Special passenger train for the upcoming BLI T&P 2-10-4 in HO scale, so I would like to know more about the consist. Even more so I would like to know the paint scheme of the late heavyweight Sunshine Special. There are some nice heavyweight cars by Rivarossi and Branchline, painted into the blue and white Eagle scheme. I wonder if they would be ok for a T&P/MP heavyweight train powered by a 2-10-4, or if the cars should rather be dark green/olive green.

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Posted by selector on Saturday, June 06, 2015 11:49 AM

daveklepper

Posted before on an older thread:  The AT&SF Ripley 2-10-4s were the best non-articulated freight locomotives built.

 

Dave, I would have asked the person offering that statement to explain himself.  I think a good argument could be made that the ATSF 5010 series were the finest, but those riding the Pennsy J1 locomotives were mightily impressed with them.

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, June 07, 2015 10:29 AM

By the Pennsy J1 you also mean the equivalent C&O Texas Type. 

From what I read the engineers on the Sandusky Line coal trains had the opportunity of a direct comparison and the leased Santa Fe power came out ahead.

The 2-10-4 was the top freight power on the Santa Fe.  On the C&O, they were second to the Alleghanies, the 2-6-6-6.

The PRR rarely if ever used their J1s on passenger, but the Santa Fe did on occasion, quite regularly on troop trains.   But maybe that is a red herring, since we are talking about a a locomotive in freight serivce.  I'l give the J1 fans their due.

Did the PRR ever test operate a Y-6 or A from the N&W?

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Posted by selector on Sunday, June 07, 2015 10:42 AM

I am not aware of a J1 being pressed into 'emergency, gotta get it done' pax service, but who is to say...?  I doubt it.  I do know many roads used otherwise freight engines in pax service.  The N&W used their K series Mountain Class at times, as did the NYC with their Mohawks.  The C&O used their H-8 Allegheny articulated monsters on troop trains, and apparently it was quite a thrill.

The T&P engines were indeed fine, but being the first of their kind, were early and did not benefit from refinements that came for the newer superpower introduced at the beginning of the Big Exercise and later on into the 50's.  C&O's wonderful T-1 engines were lent to the PRR who thought so much of the design that they essentially copied it with their J1s.

I wouldn't doubt that the Pennsy tested an articulated, and believe I have read that they did at least once, but their culture was rather strongly anti-articulated, so much so that they eventually agreed amongst themselves on the T-1 from the C&O. Even their later duplex types were non-articulated. I think the engine they did agree to trial might have been a 2-6-6-2, but I would have to defer to those who know their Pennsy history better than I do.

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Posted by ACY on Sunday, June 07, 2015 1:20 PM

Eric Hirsimaki's book Black Gold -- Black Diamonds, The Pennsylvania Railroad and Dieselization, Volume 1 (Mileposts Publications, N. Olmsted OH, copyright 1997) covers the PRR's decision to adopt the Lima/C&O 2-10-4 in some detail on pages 111 - 119.

A photo caption on page 114 reads:

Norfolk & Western's class A 2-6-6-4 1208 rolls through Tyrone, Pennsylvania on October 8, 1941 with a westbound freight.  It was a highly regarded design, but it failed to impress the Pennsylvania.  One thing working against it was the fact it was an articulated locomotive, a type long since out of favor on the railroad.  The 1208 was returned to the N&W and plans were made to test other designs under consideration.

Hirsimaki says PRR considered nine various contemporary engines at the time:  1. N&W class A;  2. PRR Q1 4-6-4-4;  3. S.P. SC-9 2-8-8-4;  4. KCS J2 2-10-4;  5. WM M-2 4-6-6-4;  6. UP 4-8-8-4 (!);  7. C&O T-1 2-10-4;  8. C&O H-8 2-6-6-6;  and  9. DM&IR M3 2-8-8-4.

The mind reels. 

I doubt that any of these engines was actually tested on the PRR, aside from the N&W class A and the C&O T-1.   

Tom

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Posted by tomstamey on Thursday, December 08, 2016 8:14 PM

De Luxe

 

 
tomstamey
They often were used on passenger trains in WWII.  Two were stationed in Longview Tx to handle the Sunshine Special of the T&P and MP due to length of trains between Texarkana and Longview. Many handled not only troop trains but regular scheduled trains extra sections and they could keep the schedules.

 

Do you know what was a typical length for the Sunshine Special between Texarkana and Longview during that time? I´m thinking about a Sunshine Special passenger train for the upcoming BLI T&P 2-10-4 in HO scale, so I would like to know more about the consist. Even more so I would like to know the paint scheme of the late heavyweight Sunshine Special. There are some nice heavyweight cars by Rivarossi and Branchline, painted into the blue and white Eagle scheme. I wonder if they would be ok for a T&P/MP heavyweight train powered by a 2-10-4, or if the cars should rather be dark green/olive green.

 

De Luxe

 

 
tomstamey
They often were used on passenger trains in WWII.  Two were stationed in Longview Tx to handle the Sunshine Special of the T&P and MP due to length of trains between Texarkana and Longview. Many handled not only troop trains but regular scheduled trains extra sections and they could keep the schedules.

 

Do you know what was a typical length for the Sunshine Special between Texarkana and Longview during that time? I´m thinking about a Sunshine Special passenger train for the upcoming BLI T&P 2-10-4 in HO scale, so I would like to know more about the consist. Even more so I would like to know the paint scheme of the late heavyweight Sunshine Special. There are some nice heavyweight cars by Rivarossi and Branchline, painted into the blue and white Eagle scheme. I wonder if they would be ok for a T&P/MP heavyweight train powered by a 2-10-4, or if the cars should rather be dark green/olive green.

 

De Luxe

 

 
tomstamey
They often were used on passenger trains in WWII.  Two were stationed in Longview Tx to handle the Sunshine Special of the T&P and MP due to length of trains between Texarkana and Longview. Many handled not only troop trains but regular scheduled trains extra sections and they could keep the schedules.

 

Do you know what was a typical length for the Sunshine Special between Texarkana and Longview during that time? I´m thinking about a Sunshine Special passenger train for the upcoming BLI T&P 2-10-4 in HO scale, so I would like to know more about the consist. Even more so I would like to know the paint scheme of the late heavyweight Sunshine Special. There are some nice heavyweight cars by Rivarossi and Branchline, painted into the blue and white Eagle scheme. I wonder if they would be ok for a T&P/MP heavyweight train powered by a 2-10-4, or if the cars should rather be dark green/olive green.

 

Train length of the Sunshine Special in WWII often reached 30 cars.  At Longview Tx the train was broken up into sections for Houston and Laredo on the MP and another for the T&P. From Texarkana to Longview the train had 4 baggage cars plus RPO's for each section.   Pullman green cars are what you need to use

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Posted by kgbw49 on Saturday, December 10, 2016 9:48 AM

T&P 2-10-4 648(?) leaving town with half the yard tied to the tank...

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T&P 2-10-4 668 sanding the flues at Handley, TX...

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T&P 2-10-4 615 broadside view...

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One for comparison - T&P 2-10-2 518...

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Another for comparison - high-stepping T&P 4-8-2 909 on the Sunshine Special...

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 Another T&P Mountain for comparison - 4-8-2 901...

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Posted by kgbw49 on Tuesday, December 13, 2016 7:27 PM

T&P 2-10-4 625 pulling a long string of high cars at Longview TX...

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T&P 2-10-4 double barrels on the departure tracks...

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T&P 2-10-4 646...

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T&P 2-10-4 600 class unit...

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Posted by kgbw49 on Tuesday, December 20, 2016 11:10 PM

T&P 610 American Freedom Train broadside...

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T&P 610 AFT through the crossing...

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T&P 610 AFT on the high iron...

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T&P 610 AFT pounding through Texas...

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T&P 610 working for the Southern - not the Sunshine Special but quite the string of varnish...

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Posted by kgbw49 on Thursday, December 22, 2016 5:23 PM

T&P 610 AFT shining like a new penny...

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T&P 610 AFT service stop with admiring onlookers - the people give scope - these were big units...

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T&P 610 AFT " and there she goes" angle...

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T&P 610 AFT compadre SP 4449...

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T&P 610 AFT compadre Reading 2101...

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T&P 610 AFT rods down portrait...

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T&P 610 Texas-style on the Southern...

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T&P 610 on the Southern pulling half the county...

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T&P 610 on the Southern at Knoxville TN waiting for the highball...

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T&P 610 on the Southern lifting the pops at 255 psi...

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T&P 610 on the Southern ready for the next run...

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T&P 610 on the Southern - what a Southern 2-10-4 would have looked like...

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T&P 610 AFT - hand off...

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T&P 610 on the Southern - Major League All-Stars...

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T&P 610 - Everything's bigger in Texas...

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T&P 610 AFT - Takin' care of business...

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Posted by kgbw49 on Sunday, January 01, 2017 4:31 PM

T&P 2-10-4 664 with a string of cars stretching to the horizon...

T & P Steam 2-10-4 664

T&P 2-10-4 660 on the ready track with a water canteen - similar to Illinois Central and Norfolk & Western practice...

T&P 2-10-4 655 on the ready track with a water canteen...

T&P 2-10-4 653 fresh out of the shop...

T&P 2-10-4 653 on the high iron at Marshall TX...

T & P Steam 2-10-4 653

T&P 2-10-4 650 with a water canteen out on the high iron...

T&P 2-10-4 646 at speed with a unit train of oil cans in 1948 - many years before the Bakken - locomotive has enough speed to outrun the camera shutter as evidenced by forward "lean" of the engine in the photograph...

T&P 2-10-4 600 on a reefer block...

T&P 2-10-4 612 leaving El Paso TX with a long train that seems to stretch clear back to New Mexico...

T&P 2-10-4 635 with a water canteen leaving Dallas TX...

T&P 2-10-4 637 making time with a reefer block...notice the brakeman on the tender at what has to be a significant rate of speed given the trailing smoke plume..

T&P 2-10-4 646 again with another unit train of oil cans at a different location...

A few for comparison purposes...

T&P 2-10-2 522 in a rare color photograph...the difference in design compared to the Superpower 2-10-4 is significant...

T&P 2-10-2 524 at Tower 55 in Fort Worth TX...

T&P 2-10-2 539 refueling at the oil tower...

T & P Steam 2-10-2 539

T&P 2-10-2 542 on the ready track in a rods-down roster shot...

Here are a few T&P 4-8-2 passenger shots for comparison...

T&P 4-8-2 907 on The Southerner nearing Texarkana TX...

T&P 4-8-2 907 again on The Sunshine Special nearing El Paso TX...

T&P 4-8-2 901 on The Texan near Forth Worth TX...

T & P Steam 4-8-2 901

T&P 4-8-2 903 waiting for the highball on The Sunshine Special at Fort Worth TX...

T & P Steam 4-8-2 903

 T&P 4-8-2 909 on The Sunshine Special at Fort Worth TX...

 

  • Member since
    April, 2001
  • From: US
  • 47 posts
Posted by sgriggs on Tuesday, January 03, 2017 10:29 AM

Trains Magazine published an article by Bill Withuhn in their February 1978 issue where they conducted dynamometer tests of the T&P 610 while it was in the Southern Railway steam program.  This was the first ever test of a steam locomotive with a modern dynamometer car and the first time a steamer had been tested in the U.S. since the 1940's or 50's.  The 610 produced a maximum of a about 4100 Drawbar Horsepower at 29 MPH (4500 Indicated Horsepower at 32 MPH).  

Contrast that with a 5001-class AT&SF 2-10-4, which produced a bit over 5300 DBHP on test.  If I recall correctly, when they dynamometer tested a 5011-class 2-10-4 (which had all roller bearings, less restrictive steam passages between the boiler and steam chest, and 67% maximum cutoff), it produced 5660 DBHP.

610

 

  • Member since
    July, 2006
  • From: Huntsville, AR
  • 698 posts
Posted by oldline1 on Thursday, January 05, 2017 10:57 AM

The T&P 600's were beautiful engines to me. Long, lean and just powerful looking standing still. In the Ft. Worth Stockyard area I worked on the 610 getting her ready to run on the AFT back in the early 1970's. I performed minor cleaning, painting and grunt work when I had free time. It was a great experience. Seeing her under steam was pure joy.

We ventured to Cleburne to see her pull the AFT into town for a maintenace stop. What a surprise to see her shiny black boiler covered in white residue from all the water residue from pop valves and whistle. Quite a shock as the last time I saw her she was shiny and bright.

When she visited the DFW area with the AFT we paced her from FW to Dallas and then back again several days or a week later. Very early hours of the morning running about 60 mph through Grand Prarie and climbing the stiff grade into Arlington was an amazing sight and sound. The whistle on the 610 has no equal and echoing in those otherwise quiet nights was haunting to say the least. Many thanks to the GP Police who knew it was futile to try to control the traffic and just let us roll with the big Texan!

It was a cold February night when, before sunup, she pulled in next to the 4449. They were side by side and the heat from her firbox, still hot from that run, was very comforting and welcome. They swapped engines and then we got the thrill of hearing the big GS-4 pulling through town blowing her whistle disappearing  from sight and sound while standing in the warmth of the 610 thinking she was done and wouldn't run again.

Later we paced her pulling the Southern aux tender and caboose and cars to the East as she went on to another all-to-short career pulling Southern Ry passenger trains. On one of those trips I talked with Mr. Purdie and he said he sure wished the Southern had something like her back in the day. He was obviously impressed with "modern steam" compared to all those USRA engines they used. Further proof of the difference between Super Power steam and what came before from a great man who had experienced it all.

The 610 sits all dusty and quiet in Palestine hoping for a chance to stretch those long silvery rods once again. What a shame to hide such a beautiful machine away in a garage! Someday.........................???????????

My biggest regret is that the 610 fell into that abyss between 16mm film and digiatl DVD's. Her careers were documented on 8mm and Super 8 and they just don't compare to before and after. Maybe next time?

Roger Huber

Deer Creek Locomotive Works

  • Member since
    August, 2010
  • From: Henrico, VA
  • 6,335 posts
Posted by Firelock76 on Thursday, January 05, 2017 5:27 PM

There's hope, oldline 1.  An outfit called John Pechulis Video has done restorations and enhancements of old 8mm and Super8 films and the results are incredible,  you'd swear you were looking at vintage razor-sharp 16mm.

I've got several of his rail video DVD's and am more than satisfied with them.

www.johnpmedia.com  Check it out, he's got some good stuff.

However, I don't think he's done anything with 610 yet.

  • Member since
    November, 2008
  • 495 posts
Posted by De Luxe on Friday, January 13, 2017 3:14 PM

What I find very interesting about the T&P Texans is the fact that despite their 63" driving wheels they were so successfully upgraded and modified so that they were able to pull T&P´s flagship trains at 80 mph without problems, while the bigger SF Texans with their 74" drivers never were used on premier passenger trains and also never were allowed to run faster than 50 mph. Guess that´s why T&P never had any Northern types because their Texans were better than most Northerns. Also an interesting comparison between these two Texas types is the fact that the T&P Texans had a maximum tractive force of 97900 pounds while the huge SF Texans "only" had 93000 pounds.

  • Member since
    January, 2015
  • 825 posts
Posted by kgbw49 on Friday, January 13, 2017 9:37 PM

A couple of exceptions to ATSF Texas-types on freight only...

ATSF 2-10-4 5021 on the Grand Canyon Limited at Belen NM...

Related image

ATSF 2-10-4 5023 on varnish...

Image result for atsf texas locomotives

Of course, ATSF also had 65 enormous Northern 4-8-4 units with 80 inch drivers to cover passenger assignments...

ATSF 4-8-4 3775 at San Clemente CA...

Image result for Atsf northern locomotive

ATSF 4-8-4 3774 at unidentified location...

Image result for atsf 2900 class northern

ATSF 4-8-4 3760 on The Chief...

Image result for atsf 4-8-4 passenger trains

ATSF 4-8-4 2926 on unidentified varnish...

Image result for atsf 4-8-4 passenger trains

 

 

 

  • Member since
    January, 2015
  • 825 posts
Posted by kgbw49 on Friday, January 13, 2017 10:39 PM

Texas and Pacific had some good looking lighter power also...

T&P 4-6-2 720 on the Texas Ranger at El Paso TX...

T&P 4-6-2 710 on the Louisiana Limited...

T&P 4-6-2 714 broadside view...

T&P 2-8-2 800 at Dallas TX...

T&P 2-8-2 805 at Texarkana TX...

T&P 2-8-2 808 broadside view...

 

 

 

 

 

  • Member since
    November, 2008
  • 495 posts
Posted by De Luxe on Saturday, January 14, 2017 5:49 PM

Nice photos you posted! Yes, I know these are photos of SF Texans in passenger service. As far as I know the best train they ever pulled was the Grand Canyon Limited, but they never pulled the real flagship trains like the Chief or Super Chief, while the T&P Texans pulled the Sunshine Special which was THE flagship train on the T&P.

Although I love big steam, I was never a fan of SF late big steam. I just don´t like the looks of the SF Texans and Northerns. And they have nothing remarkable to me what distinguishes them from most other locomotives. But I love the SF articulateds even though they weren´t successfull. I think their 2-10-10-2, 4-4-6-2 and 2-6-6-2 (with articulated boiler) types are very impressive and interesting engines.

But I love T&P steam. T&P steam clearly differs from any other road and their looks give them a special appearance and character. My most favorite T&P steamers in order of favor are the Texans, the M-1 Mountains in Eagle paint, the semi streamlined Pacifics in Eagle paint with disc drivers and the Santa Fes. Too bad T&P steam operations ended already in 1951, but it´s no surprise the road diselized so early because it did financially well and operated through "oil country" so that diselization was completed very quickly.

Good that you mentioned the Texas Ranger. I always tried to find out the routing of this train. Can you tell me between which cities it operated? So far I only know El Paso being one terminal of it.

I also always wanted to know if there ever was a T&P passenger train that operated through the entire mainline of the system from New Orleans to El Paso. Or did all T&P passenger trains start/end in Dallas/Fort Worth?

I know that the SP was probably the road to go when you wanted to get from New Orleans to El Paso because SP offered direct through passenger trains on this route since 1894 already, but still in my opinion that shouldn´t be a reason why a T&P passenger train from New Orleans to El Paso via Dallas/Fort Worth should not have existed.

  • Member since
    January, 2015
  • 825 posts
Posted by kgbw49 on Saturday, January 14, 2017 6:11 PM

Definitely agree that T&P power was classy from smallest to largest!

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