Cosmetic restoration?
If it's a restoration to operating condition, wow. Why isn't that getting any attention?
I Share the same thoughts you do Leo_Ames. A Locomotive Like Her Really Calls and Screams for attention. I know she is no longer at the Museum in Elkhart but where did she go? Makes One Wonder.......
Keith Bunner
The Mohawk's no longer in Elkhardt? Really? I hadn't heard about that. The last pictures I'd seen of it it seemed to be "all there" physically but in poor shape cosmetically. I f anyone knows anything please pass it along.
I keep up on lots of railroad museums and there is nothing out there to suggest that the Mohawk has left Elkhart. There was a plan (scheme) a few years ago to restore it to running operation, but like most plans to restore a large steam engine to operation, it fell through.
Steve
Does Anyone Have Any Updates or Leads on NYC 4-8-2 #3001 in Elkhart,IN? Haven't seen much news about her and was wondering what the deal is and why people are hiding away from her being shown on a trip for her rebuild. Any Thoughts, Input or Leads? Thanks
The last news I heard on the project was a reluctance on the part of the City of Elkhart to agree to terms proposed from two individual ventures. They wanted to lease the locomotive for a monthly fee paid to the museum and term of 15 years, the same time frame as an FRA boiler inspections. The city felt that was too long a time for the locomotive to not be in Elkhart and may have an influence on museum visitors. Once returned to the museum after 15 years another effort would then have to be made to keep her running, again. Apparently running the locomotive was not going to be a benefit to the city. Politics played a part in this and may have curtailed any efforts moving forth. If anything has occured since it has not been made public.
Well some of us feel that history has born out the fact that the New York Central Railroad was the premere passenger railroad in America for most of the last century. Further, its steam power was among the best engineered thanks to Steam Locomotive Design Engineer Paul Keifer and others.
Now whoever wants to run this 4-8-2 should figure that Elkhart, Indiana is not going to let it go into operation without the overcoming of the objections of a disfunctional city government! Why is this such a strange concept to them? If they ran excursions from Elkhart to Chicago tourists would come from all over the world to Elkhart to ride it!
In America it seems odd that a few assorted freight locomotives get rebuilt but the glory of the New York Central passenger fleet goes on rusting in Elkhart! Paul Keifer who designed most of the Central's engines in his book Railroad Motive Power says "Considerable progress has been and is currently being made to reduce these difficulties and resulting delays chargeable to modern reciprocating steam. Roller bearings on axles, crank pins and valve gear, the use of alloy steel for machinery parts, refinements in design and insistance on careful workmanship have been of great help, and the provision of larger ash hoppers has permitted longer runs between servicings..." (p.42)
NYC Mohawk 3001 was among the most modern passenger steam power Central had, and more especially was a "passenger engine!", it was equiped with precison running gear and balanced drive for speed. Further New York Central had more 4-8-2 Mohawk locomotives than any other type, almost 600 compared to 275 Hudsons and a mere 27 Niagaras, which means that this was THE large New York Central steam locomotive most often seen by most folks in America.
Seriously, this "Mohawk" engine had available 5400 horsepower compared to the 4700 horsepower of a "Hudson" and 6600 horsepower of the "Niagara." Length, weight and operating speed were close to the "Hudson" and "Niagara." Surely the "Niagara" was the supreme American steam creation, but the "Mohawk" was one of Paul Keifers works and a close second.
Couple of facts from his book,
Engine and tender wheelbase - Hudson 83 feet - Mohawk 95 feet - Niagra 97 feet
Piston Thrust - Hudson 109,300 lbs - Mohawk 127,700 lbs - Niagra 140,000 lbs
Horsepower - Hudson 4700@77mph - Mohawk 5400@76mph - Niagra 6600@85
Engine weight per cylinder hp - Hudson 77 lbs - Mohawk 74 lbs - Niagra 71 lbs
I think it is pretty obvious that this engine was among the best of New York Central passenger power. Lets get busy and get it running again and make a case to Elkhart that moves them off their dead ass and includes them in the party! Mayor Dick Moore - your a putz - wake up and smell the coffee! Give up your freak control issues - give your city a great tourist attraction! - and give me a break - time to sign up for the future - like Cheyene, Wyoming and like Union Pacific does!
Doctor D
If you have the staff and financing set up to renovate and operate 3001, by all means contact the museum in Elkhart:
Robin Hume, coordinator, 721 S. Main St., Elkhart, IN 46516; (574)294-3001
My guess would be that about the same level of demonstrable cash in bank would be required for 3001 that the City of Nashville wanted to see for Dixie 576 -- in the range of $4M. The city, understandably, would want to be sure that regardless of any sort of disaster in the restoration or operation of the locomotive, or arising out of any tour or fantrip, the locomotive would be returned to Elkhart in substantially good condition.
I'm sure you could put together an appropriate combination of volunteers and professionals to get the actual job done... but you'll have to get this well established before expecting people in Elkhart to take your idea seriously.
i am 21. and i info might be wrong..... but, based on what i know is that one of the two only surviving NYC 4-8-2,s. one was moved to either the illionis railway museum or the st. louis transportation museum. ( but i,m shure it the st. louis transpotation museum) it was talked back and forth several times of a cosmetic restoration to a opertional resto. and then to a operational resto. to then a cosmetic resto. as far as i knew it was ( supposed) to be a operational resto. but i have heard nothing for several years. but if it was to be the case. i agree that everyone would be gobbling this up to get more and track it cause it is a NYC 4-8-2 after all.
Wizlish,
I intended in my post to say something about the pedegree of NYC Mohawk 3001 of a mechanical nature. Mechanically this engine has all the heritage of the great NYC steam locomotives. The balance and condition of the drive wheels. The precision and alloy of the rods and bearings. This is no freight engine. The boiler and firebox design with a large grate area and combustion chamber could and did run the "Water Level Route" passenger trains with ease.
Although I am retired now, as a young man I was involved in the restoration of PM 1225 in East Lansing, Michigan. My membership number was #069. Now how did a group of students at the University start the restoration of PM 1225? Well they just got going out of plain enthusiasm and while they were working on their college studies. We were just a bunch of students who wouldn't take "no" as an answer to the steam locomotive. A project that COULD be completed if it was just started. We just showed up and went to work with one intent and with with NO MONEY!
A retired PM boilermaker took interest in the project and he showed us how to do the boiler and firebox work. This volunteer contribution was the key part! Local licensed heating cooling business tradesmen contributed their skills and enthusiam, as did welders. Everyone was welcome to join the club and contribute all they wanted. I remember when we sat around someone's living room talking about how to replace the cylinder head gaskets out of sheet copper. The piston rings were missing and we had them made by a local tool shop using original blueprints found in the library! We found out where to get what we needed and we went and got it. Eventually we aquired our own library and blueprints and documents for the locomotive. A professional engineer, Ron Crawford from FORD MOTOR joined the club and volunteered to oversee the final finish of the project.
I personally remember hanging the throttle and helping ream the seats of the throttle in the superheater header with a "home made" carbide reamer a couple of engineering students devised. Most ordinary tools you could find anywhere were all that was needed to restore this engine - the larger sizes! What we didn't have was loaned to us by the Norfolk Southern Steam Program.
We worked outdoors at first, and out of an old tool car, but we had determination! We hydrostatic tested the boiler outdoors and steamed it for the first time and passed all the federal inspections, you should have heard the whistle. We then followed with basic maintaince on the running gear. It was not high tech by todays standards, no computor electronics, just built with sweat! We never dropped the drive wheels or bothered with the spring rigging this stuff was all in good order when the locomotive retired needing not much more than lubrication.
To be sure we went through the injectors, feed water pumps and compressors - these things were substancial and they were repairable accessories. We checked them off the list one by one. Removing the draw bar pins took some special work with hydraulics and we did it. The old club newsletters have the story.
We chipped all the rust out of the tank by hand - young guys remember, with boundless enthusiasm! We used to climb into the firebox and eat lunch. Heady stuff! So was climbing under the engine working on the brake rigging.
As with PM 1225 the key to restoring NYC Mohawk 3001 is the boiler - the rest of the locomotive is probably in fairly usable condition as is. I realize the stoker is gone but considering Union Pacific has converted UP 844 to oil fire and is intending to do this with "Big Boy" UP 4014 the removal may be already an advantage.
PM 1225 was a great engine! but NYC Mohawk 3001 well lets just say it just ought to be done. Too many older guys just take no for the answer, they have the skills but not the vision of youth that makes everything possible. Youth have the America of tomorrow in their hands - think of that next time you see PM 1225 - its the real story - they young guys that did it!
I notice in my reading about Elkhart that Neil Puetz is the Chief Mechanical Officer of the National New York Central Railroad Museum there. Well if this is the same Neil that I worked together with in the restoration of PM 1225, well he ran the project. The boundless enthusiasm may already be in Elkhart, Indiana, if so I suspect he is hamstrung by Mayor Dick Moore and city bureaurocrats, and by Elkhart local government! No my bet is "red tape" unwillingness and fear are preventing the restoration of NYC Mohawk 3001 and it can be found in the Dick Moore city government and a contrived city museum structure - amongst the hearts of these petty bureaurocrats. They know only about GOVERNMENT not the romance, history or technology that built America.
It was New York Central managment that destroyed all the New York Central steam power and yet saved NYC Mohawk 3001. It is a similar local governmental managment that now has NYC Mohawk 3001 "locked up" firmly in the questionalble operational future of museum life and Elkhart city government politics! - often that politic of "not taking risk." I bet the Strassburg Railroad and the Amish machinists of Pennsylvania could have NYC Mohawk 3001 running withing 9 months.
It is of note that British rail enthusiasts themselves have just hand built from scratch a 4-6-2 Pacific passenger locomotive similar to NYC Mohawk 3001. The brand new boiler sections were made in East Germany!
NYC Mohawk 3001 has come a long way to survive! NYC Mohawk 3001 now has a new set of parameters governing its future, lets see how long its "bound up in a prison" not of rust, but of government and museum "red tape!"
Dr. D
Dr DI notice in my reading about Elkhart that Neil Puetz is the Chief Mechanical Officer of the New York Central Railroad Museum there. Well if this is the same Neil that I worked together with in the restoration of PM 1225, well he ran the project.
This post, and the quoted section in particular, changes the dynamic considerably (in my opinion). If you and Neil could put together a similar organization to do the work on 3001, and perhaps establish enough local 'connections' to obtain insurance for the City agencies that might be concerned about safety or the condition of the "asset", I'd think most of the apparent bureaucratic considerations would be resolvable. That might not, in the short run, involve permission to run the restored locomotive... but, as you indicate, the most important part of the effort is the restoration. (I would leave the 1472-day-specific parts of the work, and perhaps anything that would require 'specialist' knowledge or parts, like the air compressors, to the end of the work; I'm sure Neil's planning methods are at least as good as they were for the 1225 project.
Who has contacts at, say, the Purdue campus in South Bend? That might be a logical place to start 'recruitment' and publicity...
What a great story Doctor D! Thanks so much for telling it! It's always a thrill to hear from someone who was "there", if you know what I mean.
And you must get a kick out of all those Lionel "Polar Express" sets showing up under Christmas trees. After all, it IS 1225! It's your doing they're there!
Talk about dropping a pebble in a pond and watching how far the ripples go...
Firelock76, Overmod et al.,
Yes it has been a thrill to have worked on PM 1225 and to realize in a significant way that the steam locomotive is just a machine, a very large machine that had a corporate use to society providing - transportation. By itself it is beautiful and useful in that context. As Union Pacific RR and Norfolk and Southern RR have demonstrated the railroad steam locomotive now has a huge "public relations" roll it can fulfill. Like a great sailing ship such as the US Navy USS Constitution, the steam locomotive can and does draw a huge public following.
To most people a steam locomotive sitting in a park is just so much junk, and rightly so. Whatever good is it? I am grateful that the museums and parks have been safe repositiories for railroad equipment that would undoubtedly not have survived. They are expensive to build and repair, do not surive the weather, and are easy targets for scrappers and vandals who return them to the dust from which they came.
The only real way to keep a railroad steam locomotive into the future is to use it and make money with it. This is something that appears lost on the City of Elkhart, Indiana. Particularly Dick Moore the mayor? Make money with it? This guy doesn't have a clue!
PM 1225 for example has become the heart and center of a huge community involvement in Owosso, Michigan. The people of the city have galvanized around the public relations perspective that "Owosso really does have something to offer in the form of celebration of its heritage of railroading city from the past." It is a civic event that Michigan State University Trust For Railway Preservation has restored the dusty forlorn rail yard into a fantastic place of civic activity. A new turntable and roundhouse have been built. The yard is full of restored and functional passenger trains that folks regularly ride on! When the steam locomotive moves through town with its whistle blowing it stops all the business activity as the entire town turns out for the show. Think about that Elkhart! Why not decide to go on the map as having something significant to offer the larger Chicago community besides your modernized bedroom mendacity!
The governor of the State of Michigan considers the Michigan State Trust For Railway Preservation - operators of PM 1225 - as one of the major tourist draws of central Michigan that stands apart from that of the Great Lakes. A civic reality similar to that of the Colorado tourist event that is the Denver & Rio Grande RR. narrow gauge railroad of south western Colorado.
Yes there is room in northern Indiana civic life for something besides the steel mills of Gary, Indiana or the Miami beach attraction of the Lake Michigan shoreline - you could go on record and do something significant with the railroad that has been your life blood and run across your state for the last 100 years.
So whats going on in Elkhart, Indiana? The mayor of Elkhart, Dick Moore with his indecisiveness has unknowingly I think, placed the National New York Central Railroad Museum at a point of crisis.
This also occured in Owosso, MI with PM 1225 in the Fall of 1985.
Quoting from John Martin, President PROJECT 1225 Fall 1985 newsletter, "Have you ever wondered why in fifteen years, we have been unable to operate the 1125? Or why groups such as the Fort Wayne Railroad Historical Society, the Strasburg Railroad, or the Valley Railroad of Essex, Connecticut, have steamed their locomotives and often after a few years of work? I know that I have asked myself these questions; as President of the Trust, my job is to ask questions. And then to find answersl What follows is a summary of some initial findings.
First, let us backpedal to 1983. The locomotive is inside the ex-Ann Arbor Railroad backshop in Owosso; surrounded by machine tools designed specifically to repair steam locomotives, the project has come a long way from the "roundhouse in a football field" of our Michgan State University days. Paradoxically, progress on 1225 is slow. The volunteer crew is sparse and dwindling. The engine is still far from testing What is wrong?
In the broadest sense, we had simply failed to keep our efforts trained on the real task: No. 1225. Our management structure, based on the Board of Directors, was incohesive and unable to deal with day-to-day operations; while grappling with these operatonal decisions - something it was not designed to do - the Board was neglecting its true role of establishing long term policy and goals. Personality conflicts played a part, too; project managers, equals on the Board and hence in the field, refused to coordinate their efforts. Each manager sought to promote his own area of interest, without understanding how his responsibilities contributed to the whole. As a natural outgrowth of the Board's vacillation and the unlinked endeavors of the managers, the Trust lost direction. Were we devoted to operating the 1225, or were we dediated to acquiring historic equipment and building a static museum? Finally, and most importantly, we failed to remember our obligations to our members, who are really our customers. Without their unflagging support, none of the progress would have been possible, We were not and are not, exempt from the ground rules of economics; most members will not contribute to a project that fails to deliver, and our membership roles were beginning to reflect that feeling.
This list, in a nutshell, defines what we faced in 1983. Since then, our position has changed, and for the better. Here is what happened.
After much discussion, the Board concluded that management by committee was not working. The beginnings of a true organizational structure were installed to actually run the Trust; problems could be dealt with immediately, instesd of being delayed until the next board meeting. More importantly, responsibility for our operations could be traced to a single chief executive. Instead of being defused over nine Directors. Having divested itself of management decisions, the Board moved to establish long range objectives - which was a welcome change...."
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When I read about the proposal to have NYC Mohawk 3001 restored to running order it seems the Elkhart, Indiana museum and mayoral office of Dick Moore are wandering into a quagmire of "what are their long term policy and goals." What is the public demanding of you Elkhart? What is opportunity demanding of you? What is history demanding of you? - Do we get to see the NYC Mohawk 3001 operate there in Elkhart? Do you really have to take responsibility for this decision? YES - and If not now? - then WHEN?
Come on lets move out of lollypop land ELKHART, INDIANA! Do you or don't you want to be on the map as part of Americas Civic future? DESPOTIC DECISION MAKING WILL NOT DO HERE - and gambling casinos are not the only future of our nation - so what about it? What about the railroad Elkhart?
Dr DCome on lets move out of lollypop land Elkhart! Do you or don't you want to be on the map as part of Americas future? Despotic deciision making will not do here - and gambling casinos are not the only future of the nation - so what about it? What about the railroad Elkhart?
In all humility -- this approach ain't going to get it! Making fun of Elkhart and its people isn't going to make them change, least of all if it's only expressed on an Internet forum!
Put the organization together, get the student interest committed, file and get the 501(c)(3) for the Friends of the 3001 organization, get quotes and terms for the insurance ... in other words, get everything done that needs to be shown to, say, higher-ups in Elkhart. Then go to them with an appropriate presentation, and be proactive rather than negative. You've made some excellent points, and between 1225 and 261 I think much of the work of 'selling' the idea has essentially been done for you already.
I volunteer for what part of the work I can do from here. But you need local 'feet on the ground' with the distinctive competence to work, and the people skills to overcome resistance.
I don't think Doctor D's making fun of Elkhart as much as he's swinging a 2X4 to the back of their leaders heads to get their attention.
Leaders that can't lead. A common problem. In that vein, let me pass along a quote concerning leadership (or lack thereof) I read recently that was worth the price of the book it came from. It's from Stanley Resor, Secretary of the Army during the LBJ and Nixon Administrations...
"We get inadequate leaders because the people IN leadership are usually people who desperately want, and ruthlessly compete, for those positions. so the guys at the top are usually just good competitors.
And when havoc strikes, it is the ones who are officially in charge who often freeze or become unhinged. That's when the true leaders, who might not be near the top simply because they have the good sense to avoid competitive, back-stabbing people, rise to the occasion and assume the role of hard, risky leadership that no one else, in a time of crisis, really wants."
Ain't that somethin'?
National New York Central Museum - Alec
Mayor Dick Moore of Elkhart/and City Atty - dad
Fort Wayne Historical Society - Wayne
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Alec - Gee Dad when can I RUN my train engine NYC Mohawk 3001?
dad - Sorry son I just got it for you to look at, its too dangerous and expensive for you to actually use.
Alec - Aw gee dad! all the other guys have trains and they run them! - and it's better than all the rest!
dad - You'll just have to have fun just looking at it son - and besides your mom feels it is too expensive - you'll just get into trouble with it!
-----------------------------------------
Wayne - Hey Alec when are you going to bring out NYC Mohawk 3001?
Alec - My dad says its too dangerous for me - and it will get broken - and cost money!
Wayne - Cheeze! Whats the matter with him? - Doesn't he know its made to be used? What's the use of having NYC Mohawk 3001 if you can't do anything but watch it rust to junk? My dad lets me run NKP 765 all the time! and MSU Owosso runs PM 1225! You should see all the stuff we do with it!
Alec - I think he and my mom are just afraid and don't want to be bothered with me!
Wayne - Thats too bad Alec a dad should to stuff with his son! What a waste!
Alec - I know - Maybe I will get a new dad one of these days!
Wayne - Yah!
Alec - Just wait till then! - you'll see!
Wayne - Yah! - just wait till then! - NYC Mohawk 3001 will be better than all the rest! - you'll see! - trouble is WE'LL ALL BE DEAD!
Firelock, I like your last post. I often observed in my working days that the people who wanted the leadership positions the most were usually the worst at it, but I never analyzed the reasons for it.
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
Thanks Paul! When I first read that quote from Secretary Resor it hit me like baseball bat between the eyes. "Ah", I said to myself, "THAT explains a lot!"
As I said, worth the price of the book it came from.
The classic looks of 3001 along with its performance make it a real stunner in the world of restored steam. I hope folks can succeed.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Mark this date on your calendar, folks! This may be the first time Schlimm & I have ever agreed on anything!
The NYC Mohawk is truly a stunner --- a real work of art.
Tom
Honestly. I think the Mohawk is a better looking engine than the Hudson. Forgive the apostacy, but that's just one man's opinion.
On the other hand, I just LOVE the Dreyfuss Hudson's!
Dear Dr D,
You have been there and done that. Everything you said is spot on. As a 49 year IRM steam department observer, I've seen several locomotives out of service because of lack of leadership. We have the engines, the tools, the shop, the turntable (not ready for prime time spinning), the knowledge and we even have WILLING and DEDICATED volunteers, but alas, we have little and few operating days of steam.
The 3001 would be a "one of a kind" locomotive to restore. The northwest Indiana area has a great potential for drawing more than just your normal steam fans.
If you build it, they will come. It's a fact! We need more Dr D's out there!
So..... Did my post get blown over or did my info get mis read......?
JOSEPH the steam buffSo..... Did my post get blown over or did my info get mis read......?
Your post wasn't relevant. This discussion is about NYC 3001 in Elkhart. The locomotive at MoT is NYC 2933, and to my knowledge (S.Connor or others will correct me if otherwise) its restoration has always been cosmetic. (MoT would almost certainly bring back 1522 if they wanted to run a Mountain, for a great variety of reasons...)
Couldn't have said it better myself!
The major reason for this is that 1522 is stored serviceable.
The Mohawk is nearing the end of her cosmetic work and (Don't take my word for this) may be on display by the end of next year.
S. Connor,
Nice photo of the MOHAWK!
I grew up in Mullett Lake, Michigan - a station stop just south of Mackinac. I remember daily looking up the highway when I heard that whistle and seeing that locomotive face! Its a classic.
Today the former New York Central mainline crosses my property - all along the beach - and in the night - in the misty night - if you listen close - the ghosts of those sister engines continue to pass by! I can hear them, I really can!
I believe, that I really do!
Dr. D. - you should have never posted you worked on 1225! Im gonna hound you like green on grass about it now! I wasnt fortunate enough to be there but I remember it well the day i got the word 1225 was coming out of the Univ..
There was NO ONE happier in the whole world that day I can promise you! I will take what ever you have, documents, photos, stories, reports, technicals, testaments..... ANYTHING!
Dr. D,
Whenever I look at railroad tracks, I find it hard to not imagine a steam train roaring down them. I know how you feel.
-S. Connor
Since you are volunteering at the St. Louis museum and took that great New York Central Mohawk photo, how about finding about the Locomotive Valve Pilot Indicator? This device was used on every "Hudson", "Mohawk" and "Niagara" and can be seen in any photograph of the right side of these locomotives including the Franklin Steam Distribution poppet valve S-2 Niagara.
I am not sure how many other railroads used it but believe it was one of the corporate tools by which Chief Steam Locomotive Designer Paul Kiefer got such performance from New York Central steam locomotives.
So what is a "Locomotive Valve Pilot Indicator?" It's a very early mechanical computer, it was a BLACK BOX hung on the side of the engine just below the air resevoir and power reversing cylinder on the right side of all of the New York Central locomotives that used it. The Valve Pilor Indicator was a mechanism which attached to the locomotive steam distribution valve gear, and was so mounted to display the movement of two needles in a gauge visable to the engineer. There was on this display a dial with two needles one red one black indicating necessary adjustments to the locomotive power reverse mechanism. The engineer adjusted the locomotive steam distribution valve gear for a condition of operation called steam "cut off." This was done to achieve an optimum setting of power and efficiency - when the needles would align. Also included in this mechanism and located in the dial console was a rolling paper reel or tape that also kept track of the settings of the engine and was used for review at a later time.
"Locomotive Valve Cutoff" is a required performance setting of the position of the steam engine cylinder valves to allow the cylinders and boiler to work at an optimum setting of efficiency and power. Enginemen performed this adjustement as the locomotive accelerated. The use of the Valve Pilot Indicator allowed every engineman to run a New York Central steam locomotive at its best power and economy.
In starting the locomotive the engine valve gear would be set at LONG travel to admit steam from the boiler at full pressure for the full length of the cylinder stroke of the piston. As the locomotive accelerated the engine would run faster and with more power and ecomomy if the valve gear stroke was SHORT.
By admission of only part of the steam to the cylinder the boiler supply of steam would be saved and the expansion power of the steam would "run the train" instead of a "quantity or high volume of steam" from the boiler.
It was very easy to damage the locomotive without this adjustment. If it was set too short the exhaust events of the cylinders would not be long enough and the steam pressure would be traped in the cylinders of the engine causing it damage in the "pounding" the machinery.
This piston valve adjustment done by the engineman was called "Working the Cut-off" and was performed by adjusting the engine reversing mechanism wheel or the "Johnson bar" of the locomotive to achieve a short valve stroke.
Alvin Staufer mentions this subject in his book Thoroughbreads,
"Since the J1's usually worked at 65% "cut off" with boiler pressure of only 224 lbs., metal stresses to rods and crank pins was due to enormous mileage rather that "thrust" or "kick".
"The most complex aspect of running a steam locomotive, and that which sets it apart from any other of man's machines, is piston "cut off". This one talent is what separated the good engineers from the bad. It had always been a "seat of the pants" or "feel" technique. Steam admission to power stroke was an endless variable, changing with each different speed and load condition. Its accuracy was imperative at the high speed range. Proper settings meant more ecomomy, more speed and smoother running. Bad settings (usually too much steam to power stroke) were not only wasteful, but extremely damaging to the engine. If you "did'nt have it" you could literally tear your engine to pieces."
"To reduce the odds of human failures, the New York Central installed a device called a Locomotive Valve Pilot on all J1 Hudsons. Externally, it was a box-like apparatus, just below the reversing cylinder with arms or lines extending to the cab and reverse cam. It was a complex, magical device that could correlate the factors of speed and load and then correct valve setting. The engineer had just one gauge with two hands a red for speed, and a black for valve setting. When the black was directly over the red, you were running at best possible cut-off."
S. Connor - How about checking to see how much of this Valve Pilot Indicator mechanism remains on the St. Louis Museum NYC Mohawk 2933?
There should be a speedometer type dial in a console behind the brake stand located on the back of the boiler in the cab just ahead of the enginemans seat.
There should also be a metal "black box" located just below the power reversing cylinder, on the locomotive right side just below the engine running board and air tank. In historic photos there appears to also be a large steel bracket used in attaching this "black box" to the locomotive frame. This bracket would be found going between the drive wheels on the right side. The Valve Pilot Indicator is not attached or hung from the air tank or reverse cylinder.
There should also be a moving linkage attaching the "black box" to the locomotive reverse mechanism of the locomotive valve gear.
The Locomotive Valve Pilot Indicator "Black Box" appears to be missing on the Elkhart, Indiana NYC Mohawk 3001. I am assuming it was probably discarded when the engine was on display in Dallas, Texas masquerading as a Texas and Pacific Railroad locomotive from the 1950's to the 1990's. This would mean the only other New York Central locomotive with this equipment would be the NYC Mohawk 2933 in St. Louis, Missouri.
Surprisingly, I would say the New York Central Valve Pilot Indicator as used by the railroad was an early "mechanical computer," like one would find in an old fashioned cash register or adding machine. Before computers were electronic they were mechanical.
This would be a cool thing to check up on - and find out what part of it, if any or all remains.
Dr. D.
Dr DHow about checking to see how much of this engine accessory remains on the St. Louis NYC Mohawk?
Doesn't really matter. Most components of the Valve Pilot device were standardized. Frisco 1351 in Collierville still has most, if not all, of her Valve Pilot apparatus intact, so even if there were no other instantiations intact on other locomotives, you have patterns to re-create it.
The important custom piece is the cam, and while some care and effort would need to be made to re-create it (and probably some trial and error with 3001 restored and running, to get the fine points of the cam profile established) that is a comparatively small part of the restoration effort.
Didn't someone just win an award for a detailed article on the Valve Pilot? (I can't find any reference on the Classic Trains site, and can't find the notice I remember describing this -- someone please reference it.)
Honestly, in a mechanical sense, I think 2933 would be the better choice to restore and operate. Of course, I'm slightly biased, no expert, and do not know the condition of the boiler, but thats just my 2 cents.
I would be glad to see any New York Cental Railroad steam locomotive run!
NYC Mohawk 2933 appears entirely more intact, the firebox grates and stoker are intact as is the tender with coal pusher.
NYC Mohawk 3001 in Elkhart, Indiana, however, was built as a passenger engine and the locomotive drive is much finer. The Boxpok Drive Wheels offered much better balance and strength than the spoked drivers of NYC Mohawk 2933, also the side rods on NYC Mohawk 3001 were a light alloy and built from the start for high speed running. Also all the axles ran on roller bearings on NYC Mohawk 3001. As a passenger locomotive it was pretty close to a NYC 6000 Niagara.
So what about NYC Mohawk 2933, is the Locomotive Valve Pilot there or not? It went from storage in a NYC roundhouse direct to the St. Louis museum so it wasn't out on where it could be picked over or stolen. I assume the Valve Pilot mechanism would be intact.
For that matter, what about the bell, and the whistle, and also are all the cab appliances intact? and what about the famous water scoop on the tender? A NYC freight Mohawk should also have a pole and re-railers hung on the side of the tender?
Also a passenger Mohawk such as NYC 3001 should should have been equipped with other special equipment - the "forstaller" and its "reciever" for Automatic Train Control. These were special safety devices used on New York Central Passenger locomotive equipment.
Thanks for checking,
I do not know when I will be at the museum next (Especially with the upcoming holidays) but when I do get there I will check the locomotive thoroughly for the valve pilot, ect.
The bell, and whistle are at the museum, intact and restored. The cab has also been restored beautifully, but from the ground I'm afraid I can't get up and truly check it out. (I do not work with the restoration crew and do not have the authority to access the cab).
I know the automatic signal relays are still present, as well as the hooks for the poles (Not sure where those are, and I don't think the rerailers are with the locomotive either)
I'm sure the water scoop is there, but I have not thoroughly inspected the 2933.
Will check it out as soon as I get the chance.
I had to chuckle at that one. Presence or absence of a water scoop is hardly relevant, since you'll have a hard time finding a place to scoop water from the pans.
Yes, the L-2's (2933) were considered freight engines; but they were used on passenger trains sometimes, and their overall size and capabilities were not much different from those of the dual service L-3's (3001). As far as operation is concerned, nobody is likely to allow either engine to operate at 70 mph, so the 3001's high-speed capability may not be so important.
What's so bad about a freight engine on varnish? Many of our past, present, and future fan trip engines were designed as freight engines. These include NKP 765, PM 1225, SR 4501, N&W 1218, UP 4014, UP 3985, RDG 2102, RDG 2124, T&P 610, and many more.
If either one of those Mohawks ever breathes again, I'll be at trackside and/or hopefully in an open-window car behind. 2933 or 3001? Who cares which?
It's pretty cool that you have the time to volunteer at the St. Louis Museum. Once you are part of a family like that you probably only have to ask for access to the cab. Especially if I you are researching a project they will allow you. The museums exist for this purpose.
Thats why Southern California cut loose UP4014 and didn't try to keep it! This is why St. Louis is cutting loose the N&W Y6b. Any museum worth its charter is interested in more public attention and appreciation and the furthering of its mission. Its why Virginia is allowing restoration of 611 and allowing volunteers from all over the country to sign up and work on the engine.
This is also why Dick Moore the Mayor of Elkhart is totally screwed up in the head. He is peverting the National New York Central Railroad Museum mission for some kind of distorted purpose like city income or his and the city attorneys own personal fears.
Museums do not exist as private collections for the curators. They are interested in making the most historical impact and the public use of their collections. All museums love scholars and scholarship and anyone who in doing historic research - and for that purpose they have "the red carpet out."
So tell them you are researching an article for Trains Magazine Forum they should be glad to cooperate! You should also be able to access any historical files they have. And welcome to the world of creative writing Dr. S. Connor.
Thanks Dr. D,
I think it's cool you were involved in saving PM 1225 from the prison of that park! I'm only too exited to hear "behind the scenes" stories of things like this.
As for 3001, only time will tell her fate. May someone knock sense into Ekhart.
Be back with news on 2933 when I can.
Best of Luck,
S. Connor
I just happened to google "NYC Hudson" and came upon a u-tube presentation I have seen before entitled "The Steam Locomotive" by New York Central film department.
About mid way through the video the film did a nice presentation of the Valve Pilot Indicator. Showing the "black box" on the side of the engine and then the elaborate console in the cab with the dial gauge. Surprisingly they opened up the Valve Pilot Indicator and reveled the paper tape on reals that recorded the operation of the locomotive and how well the engineer adjusted the "cut off."
Apparently these tapes were removed after every run and sent to some company railroad department that reviewed them! Now without modern computers that's a serious amount of paper tape rolls to evaluate considering the number of engines the New York Central had running at any one time!
This interesting film and shows the "Hudson" steam locomotive in very fine detail. This would be a cool u-tube presentation for you to review if you are going to look over NYC Mohawk 2933!
Doc
Doctor D, and anyone else for that matter, if you're really interested in the Loco Valve Pilot there's a superb article in Kalmbach's "Steam Glory 3" by Christopher Zahrt concerning the same. The article won a David P. Morgan award as well, and it was well deserved in my opinion.
"Steam Glory 3" is available as a back-issue, if you haven't got it, do so.
I just spent a very enjoyable hour or so watching (again) Herron's New York Central Vol. 1, Big Four Route: films of Donald J. Krofta, with sound recorded by Jim Hawk.
There's our girl, 3001, in all her glory, working out of Bellefontaine (pronounced Bell-fountain), Ohio in 1955. She's shown in several views. Also shown are several other Mohawks of various L-2, L-3. and L-4 subclasses, plus Mikes and Hudsons. Even diesel fans will get a kick out of seeing Lima diesel switchers and at least one Erie-buit F-M, so there's something for everyone. Saint Louis' 2933 isn't shown, but there are several L-2 shots that will give you a sense of what she'd look like under steam.
And for those who remember, there are a couple views of 3005, the Mohawk That Refused To Abdicate.
Of all the preserved engines in the world, the NYC Mohawks are the ones I would most love to see back in steam.
(Now, where are we gonna run her?)
ACY And for those who remember, there are a couple views of 3005, the Mohawk That Refused To Abdicate.
Never heard this, could someone explain the story behind that?
THE MOHAWK THAT REFUSED TO ABDICATE
In September of 1955, David Morgan and Philip Hastings started a journey to photograph steam action for a Trains Magazine series. They started, appropriately enough, in Roanoke, Virginia, on the N&W. Then they recorded C&O and a number of smaller roads in West Viirginia before they got to Ohio. Eventually, their travels took them on a journey around Lake Erie through Ontario, to upstate New York, Pennsylvania, Maryland, New Jersey, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Maine, Vermont, and Quebec. The result was a feature called Steam In Indian Summer, that ran in fourteen installments in Trains Magazine, one of the most popular features they ever ran.
After West Virginia and before they reached Toledo, (installment 4) they stopped a ways north of Columbus to observe and record PRR J1 2-10-4's on the Sandusky line, then moved on to Galion where they found bedraggled-looking NYC L-3a Mohawk 3005 at the coal chute tied to a long train of dead freight. Morgan and Hastings agreed the train looked like too much for 3005, but veteran engineer John Hitchko was optimistic.
The pair moved on to Shelby, Ohio and observed several other steam and diesel movements on the Big Four, plus a B&O Mikado working the interchange. From the tower operator, they learned that 3005 had pulled a drawbar, creating a living nightmare for the dispatcher. Just when it looked like 3005's efforts were bound for failure, they suddenly discovered that Hitchko and his conductor had gotten their train together and were, in Morgan's words,
"...bearing down on Shelby with all the implications of destiny of the Book of Revelations, gaining momentum with each revolution of those four pairs of 69-inch drivers, making the legal mile a minute with ease and perhaps a notch or two better. The elephant-eared aristocrat of an Alco rammed across the diamond with smoke going high, the Baker up near center, and the crew enjoying the breeze. Out of her dusty wake came her train --- rattling, rocking, rolling, riding to Cleveland at such a pace that, as Hastings recalls it, 'one felt called upon to wonder at what moment the whole shebang would take either to the air or to the adjacent countryside.'"
Hastings' photos of the event are classic, as is Morgan's description.
The entire series, plus additional Morgan/Hastings gems, was published by Kalmbach in book form (The Mohawk That Refused to Abdicate, And Other Tales) in 1975. That book should be in your personal collection.
Thats a cool post Tom, I can see the four coupled drivers rolling across the diamond and the train coming on. NYC in its glory!
I was reading that the new musem director for National New York Central Railroad Museum in Elkhart has recently replaced the former director Mark Frazier at whim of the Mayor Dick Moore of Elkhart. "Because he replaces anyone who does not agree with him." Mark was moving the museum forward in the restoration to operation of NYC 3001. This executive action was an effort to make sure Mohawk NYC 3001 does not steam again. Basically the mayor decapatated the museum structure. Apparently he wants the National New York Central Railroad Museum to be some kind of a "carnival side show" or "kiddy land." The new museum director Robin Hume is from Elkhart Parks and Recreation Department. I do not believe she has the skills or could really direct the museum in the operation of NYC Mohawk 3001.
It is important to know that the City of Elkhart does not own the NYC Mohawk 3001 because it is on lease to the National New York Central Railroad Museum. I would question that The City of Elkhart and Mayor Dick Moore have broken the conditions of the lease of NYC Mohawk 3001 by changing the function and purpose of the Elkhart museum from operation of the locomotive to become a collection of railroad equipment.
If they are not interested in this railroad equipment its preservation and operation why should they even have it? It is really out of the realm of the function of city governments like Elkhart, Indiana to operate a museum of this sort. I question if a mere "kiddie tourist attraction" really was the original intent of the owners in the leasing NYC Mohawk 3001 to the City of Elkhart.
I think its time for the owners of NYC Mohawk 3001 to consider legal action to remove this their property from control of such a disfuctional city government and mayor! I for one know several attorneys who are railfans who would be glad to take up the case!
Last time I heard the current Mayor of Elkhart Dick Moore was presently residing in Florida. I wonder how he manages to keep up with his mayoral duties and what's going on in Indiana?
Dr. D:
Maybe I missed it, but I don't think the actual ownership of 3001 has been explained. Who does own the engine, and who owns the other display items at Elkhart, and what are the terms & duration of the lease?
Tom,
Here are some facts you asked about concerning the NYC 3001.
NYC 3001 is owned by Lakeshore Railroad Historical Foundation who leases the locomotive and rolling stock to the National New York Central Railroad Museum. Currently the lease was signed in 1987 for 100 years for $1. The lease has a long list of conditions regarding the leased equipment that must be met.
In 1976 the Lakeshore Railroad Historical Foundation was started by Bob Spaugh who originally owned the current National New York Central Railroad Museum (aka Elkhart Museum) building and purchased it from Miles Labratories when they made Alka Seltzer and Flintstones vitimans on that site.
Bob and his wife ran a novel theme restaurant at the location, which incorporated authentic old NYC passenger cars as part of the dining room experience. This was called the "Freight House Restaurant."
The Lakeshore Railroad Historical Foundation (aka The Foundation) ran steam excursions in the 1977's to Middlebury and Shippshewana using a former Buffalo Creek and Gauly steam locomotive which was later acquired by one of these on line towns. This engine BC&G #13 is now preserved operational in Sugarcreek, Ohio at the Age Of Steam Roundhouse.
The Lakeshore Railroad Historical Foundation through the efforts of Bob Spaugh collected several Pennsylvania RR GG1 locomotives including the one used on the Robert Kennedy funeral train. This locomotive PRR 4903 was traded to the city of Dallas, Texas, for the former NYC 3001 Mohawk in 1984. This steam locomotive was moved to the Lakeshore Railroad Historical Foundation museum/ Bob Spaugh's Restaurant in Elkhart in 1984 by Union Pacific Railroad and Conrail.
Conrail was interested in having a steam program like CSX with C&O 614. Bob and the foundation were contacted by Conrail CEO Richard Sanborn about moving NYC Mohawk 3001 to the Conrail Shops in Reading, PA for an operational overhaul. Conrail Senior Vice President R.B. Hasselman was sent to handle this when Conrail CEO Richard Sanborn died of a heart attack - the Conrail steam program died with him.
In 1986 Elkhart city officials drove into the Bob Spaugh's and Lakeshore Railroad Historical Foundation parking lot and made an offer to become a part of the project by lending The city of Elkhart influence and help. Bob sold the restaurant and its dining cars to the city outright, the rest of the railroad equipment including NYC 3001 was leased to The City of Elkhart by the foundation.
Efforts continued to obtain funding to restore NYC 3001 and restoration funds were offered and became available through The National Railroad Historical Society. I am sure similar funding is available today.
---------------------
Fast forward to the years 2006-2008 when Mark Frazier was the Curator of the Elkhart Museum with a plan moving towards operating NYC 3001. Ron Troyer was a director of the museum at this time.
Enter the administration of Mayor Dick Moore of Elkhart who completely altered the direction of the museum while giving lip service to supporting the operation of NYC 3001. Moore was heavy handed with any part of the city govenment that did not see things "the way he did" or get his approval for such projects. Mayor Dick Moore appointed Robin Hume from Elkahart Human Resourses and Parks and Recreation Department to head the Elkhart Museum.
The City of Elkhart has made few statements of any credability concerning the Museum and engine NYC 3001.
Many feel the the National New York Central Railroad Museum is adrift without a true purpose or mission and that it and its prize collection are the stepchild of city politics that are use for 'one-up-man-ship' more than the use of, preservation of, and protection of the exhibits such as NYC 3001.
In this behavior I feel sure there is a violation of the museum lease and foundations charter.
To illustrate the source of the problem, here are a few quotes from 3rd term mayor Dick Moore - who by he way is running for mayor again in 2015 - regarding the museum and the operation of NYC Mohawk 3001,
----------------------
"I'm not sure its the practical thing to do, the train wouldn't be seen much in Elkhart"
"I'm not sure thats what we need if we can't run it when it gets back here."
"A lot of people have said, 'Yes, Elkhart ought to do that!' I think they are like me..they would love to see it run and smoke and toot and do all that again...but it's questionable."
The mayor has also gone on record saying that he is reluctant to part with the 70 year old locomotive but after communicating with 'rail buffs' and those who brought NYC 3001 from Texas he now half-heartedly supports restoration efforts.
A non profit group of 'rail buffs' called Friends of 261, based in Shoreview, MN, thought that NYC Mohawk 3001 could be overhauled for about 1 million dollars and would try to find the money to do it. "They are wrapped up in 261 and can't handle two locomotives at this time, but they are still interested. We don't have one or two million dollars ourselves."
He would rather have an outside organization perform the restoration.
He plans to form a committee of 'rail buffs' and members of Lakeshore Railroad Historical Foundation (who owns NYC Mohawk 3001).
"The City of Elkhart is contacting railroads, private companies and individuals interested in being involved in the restoration."
Ron Troyer - Director of National New York Central Railroad Museum in 2007 is quoted "Were drafting a letter to send out to a couple of companies that have the ability to do this."
Persons contacting the National New York Central Railroad Museum in 2010 were told "Ron Troyer is in charge."
-----------------
Some facts about Mayor Dick Moore 3rd term Mayor of The City of Elkhart.
He is 77 years old and grew up in Elkhart where he earned a highschool degree from Elkhart High School in 1957.
Dick Moore is former Street Commissioner, Fire Chief, owner of the River Queen restaurant and was co-owner of a trucking company for 10 years.
Dick Moore reportedly is a model railroader with several loops of track in his basement. - He is at least purported to to be a model railroader for publicity and political purposes.
Dick Moore announced that he is going for a third term election in 2015 on the Democratic ticket.
In 2008 he pionered Anti-Noise Control legislation in Elkhart and established a noice control police enforecement. He feels the anti-noise control is a model program for the nation. - This is an odd political stand on his part because Elkhart is a railroad shop and yard center moving extensive rail traffic and hazardous materials. Rail whistles are necessary for the protection of everyones safety.
Mayor Dick Moore notes also that Elkhart has the highest unemployment in the country. - One wonders at the mind set of a politician who would advertise this fact and not do anything about it. Possibly setting up a tourist railroad using NYC Mohawk 3001 could do something to alleviate this.
Ron Troyer former Director of the National New York Central Railroad Museum has removed himself from participation in the museum and has run and been elected to the City Council of Elkhart from the 4th District. - This presents an odd poliitcal conflict of interest in the city's manipulation of the NYC Museum.
--------------------
Bob Spaugh who created the restaurant and operated the steam excursions, who was fundamental in leading the Lakeshore Railroad Historical Foundation owners of NYC 3001 died this past week.
NYC Mohawk 3001 remains the sole surviving passenger engine of the New York Central Railroad beating the odds of all her 600 sisters.
NYC Mohawk 3001 has outlived New York Central Railroad President - Al Perlman and all those bent on the distruction of "The Great Steel Fleet."
NYC Mohawk 3001 remains itself! - The coveted and cherished sole representative of the great age of New York Central passenger steam locomotives.
----------------------------
Blind and obstinate Mayor Dick Moore and no one else will keep NYC Mohawk 3001 from this appointed destiny. - Because NYC Mohawk 3001 belongs to the heart of the people of America!
There are a few folks here who need to wake up and take a look at this fact!
There are people and there are places NYC Mohawk 3001 belongs besides being trapped in the city of Elkhart, Indiana!
I Googled Lakeshore Railroad Historical Foundation and found info that appeared to be from 1999-2001, with nothing newer. Is there any more current contact information?
Man thats depressing, guess the may or needs to have an " accident "soo we can repo the 3001
Man thats depressing, guess the mayor needs to have an " accident "soo we can repo the 3001
I NEVER KNEW THAT CONRAIL WANTED A STEAM PROGRAM
UNDER THE RIGHT CIRCUMSTANES AND WITH TOTAL OUTSIDE FUNDING ASSURED, YOU MIGHT TALK METRO-NORTH INTO ONE
AND THEY DO HAVE THE TRACK WHERE A MOWHAWK COULD SHOW ITS STUFF, THE HUDSON NORTH OF CROTON-HARMON & THE BEACON TO MILFORD CONNECTING LINE, FORMER NEW HAVEN MAYBROOK LINE
I HAPPEN TO THINK IT IS EXACTLY WHAT MN NEEDS.
AND ESSEX IS NOT TO FAR AWAY WITH AMTRAK A FRIENDLY CONNECTION.
FOR SPECIAL OCCASIONS, THEY COULD LEND IT TO THE LIRR.
A Mohawk running up the old New York Central Hudson line? Wouldn't THAT be something!
I'm not sure what Metro North's attitude is toward steam. I do know that the LIRR policy at this time is no steam at all. Maybe no-one's asked Metro North yet?
A program like this would great for the operating peoples' moral. MN needs all the favorable publicity it can get. It would require complete outside funding, however. Once it is successful on MN, the pressure will be on LIRR to change their policy, and the G5 will be able to return to LI!
A consummation devoutly to be wished Dave!
Another poster, Dr. D, mentioned a possible Conrail steam program years ago that died a-borning. When I think about it and the times it doesn't sound so crazy. Norfolk-Southern had a steam program, as did Union Pacific, and CSX was hosting steam runs at the time as well. It goes without saying all were and are great attention-getters for the host 'roads, so it doesn't suprise me the head honcho at Conrail gave it some serious thought.
It didn't happen of course, but imagine the possibilities!
Oh, and if Metro-North needs some favorable publicity maybe they should re-introduce the bar cars!
Remember, people riding the bar cars ALWAYS wave back at people trackside!
Can't imagine why.
All this talk makes me wonder.... the general consensus is that we NEED a NYC Mohawk riding the rails again.
It might be worth starting a new thread, but what else do we just HAVE to have running?
2-3 years ago #1 on my list would be a big boy, but thats been fullfilled. So here's what I think: (In no particular order)
-Pennsy GG1
-A Three-cylinder, Most likely the SP 4-10-2 at Pamona.
-SP 4460 (lost daylight), the war-baby sister of 4449.
-A rebuild of NYC Hudson
-The PRR T-1 rebuild (once complete)
-One of the freedom train locomotives (Complete with paint scheme)
These are just the first that come to mind....Now if my name was only Bill Gates.
Have a good one,
S. Connor-One of the freedom train locomotives (Complete with paint scheme)
Wouldn't take much money to make up a set of graphics that would fit 4449 now that she's had her 15-year...
S. Connor -A Three-cylinder, Most likely the SP 4-8-2 at Pamona. -SP 4460 (lost daylight), the war-baby sister of 4449.
-A Three-cylinder, Most likely the SP 4-8-2 at Pamona.
The SP Three-cylinder is 5021 a 4-10-2 Southern Pacific type.
Thanks, updated that post.
Dr D NYC 3001 has outlived NYC President Al Perlman and all those bent on the distruction of "The Great Steel Fleet."
NYC 3001 has outlived NYC President Al Perlman and all those bent on the distruction of "The Great Steel Fleet."
A rather gratuitous slur on Alfred Perlman and those who remembered that the New York Central Railroad was first and foremost a business and did their utmost to keep that enterprise running as an ongoing business operation.
CSSHEGEWISCH,
Thanks for the post, makes me wonder what team your playing for?
Al Perlman took over after a corportate struggle that lead visionary New York Central Railroad CEO Robert Young to blow his brains out in his parlor with a shotgun. I really wonder what was going on in those days with that company?
What was behind the corporate merger in 1968 that combined two of the largest railroads in America? The New York Central and the Pennsylvania, into a union so successful that it was quickly followed with a questionable bankrupsy and loss of assets that almost brought down the western world with bank failures. The Fedral Govenment had to step in and guarantee the bank loans that saved the nation and thats how the government created ConRail, aka "consolidated eastern railroads."
Check out the book Riding The Pennsy to Ruin, A Wall Street Journal Chronicle of the Penn Central Debacle. Edited by Michael Gartner and published by Dow Jones & Company, Inc., Princeton, New Jersey.
Public Utility Commissioner James McGirr charged the new Penn Central Transportation Company with "a pattern of neglect bordering on contempt for the public."
I think it is pretty clear that what happened in the 1960's - 70 was close to the banking scandel that almost brought down the nation in 2008.
Al Perlman was a major player and his attitude about preservation of a New York Central "Hudson" or "Niagara" was disgraceful. He was about as interested in steam locomotives as he was in a "toaster" or a "washing machine," and I for one won't venerate him on a railroad forum dedicated to "preservation of railroad steam locomotives."
Thanks to him some of the greatest historic railroad treasures of American history were entirely lost.
So "sing me the song" of the glory of President Al Perlman! Maybe we can adapt it to some of to the glory of the accomplishments of Mayor Dick Moore of Elkhart, Indiana! Todays enlightened leadership of this famous American city!
Let not their GREATNESS go unsounded!
Perlman's fiduciary and ethical obligations did not extend to mere locomotives. They extended to his public, his constituent workforce, to his board, and to investors. It must have made some sense to scrap assets that were effectively bereft of operational value in order to recover some of their material value. The rest is sentiment and historical interest.
To give Al Perlman his due, he was NOT in favor of a merger with the Pennsylvania. In his opinion it made no sense, two 'roads merging which essentially paralelled each other. Perlman WAS in favor of a "point-to-point" merger with someone, anyone, but not with the PRR. He was overruled and had to make the best of it.
In the end he was right, although I doubt he got much satisfaction from an "I told you so!"
City of Elkhart mayor Dick Moore was defeated in the past November 2015 elections. Mayor elect Tim Neese former Republican legislator was elected Mayor of Elkhart, Indiana and is to take office January 1st. Changes in the leadership of the 23 city departments to be effected and 5 department heads are to leave by December 31 including Moores daughter Vicci Moore head of the Human Resources Department.
Mayor elect Tim Neese was a Republican member of the Indiana House of Representatives from 2002 thru 2014. Formerly a four term member of the Elkhart City Council before election to the state house. Neese was head of Elkhart County solid waste managment prior to running for mayor of Elkhart and was also senior assistant to former Secretary of State Ed Simcox.
Representative Neese recieved the highest award from the Governor of Indiana the "Sagamore of the Wabash." He authored several bills before the legislature including HB 1024 on "Protection of Private Real Property," and HB 1026 bill on "Offences Against Law Inforcement Animals." He co authored HB 1109 "Sales Tax on Recreational Vehicles" and HB 1351 "Welfare Matters; Drug Testing." He co authored resolution HR 16 "Urging the legislative council to assign to the appropriate committee the study of the need for costs, benefits, and impacts of a wilderness preservation system on state public lands."
Tim Neese is married with three children and lives in Elkhart. He is graduate of Ball State University, a board member of the Elkhart YMCA, a member of the National Council of Enviornmental Legislators, an instructor at the Rick Mount Basketball Shooting School, and a member of St. Thomas The Apostle Church.
This news constitutes a change in Mayoral heavy handed leadership of the City of Elkhart New York Central Railroad Museum. Mayor Dick Moore had been and was the primary blockage to several attempts for the future operation and restoration of New York Central 4-8-2 Mohawk steam locomotive NYC 3001. Unfortunately the momentum of the restoration staff of the museum was entirely lost under Moore. It is uncertain if the new mayor is even aware of the steam locomotive or the past controversy surounding the restoration and operation of the famed passenger engine NYC 3001.
A recent visit to the museum showed a very skeleton staff present. Examination of NYC 3001 shows new paint on much of the locomotive including relettering of the left side of the engine cab. Most of the running gear is untouched and intact the boiler sheathing is removed and the boiler painted for protection. The turret coverings were missing on one side and external boiler appliances are removed. Turbo generator is in place, missing are safety valves, whistle, bell and external boiler piping. Otherwise the engine is truely "all there" the last surviving example of over 600 locomotives - and the only remaining modern New York Central passenger power extant.
Let's hope this governmental change portends good things for the New York Central Railroad Museum and the potential restoration and operation of NYC 3001.
Farewell Mayor Dick Moore we'll be see'n ya!
Given the party affiliation of Moore's successor, it seems unlikely restoring and operating 3001 would fit in with his agenda. Maybe he will sell it to you? Otherwise it may well head to the scrapper in a budget-cutting orgy.
Quite the juxtaposition between 3001's situation in Elkhart and 765's down the road in Fort Wayne. 3001 is definitely a thoroughbred - in a perfect world it would really be something to see steaming through Indiana at 40 mph on the The Thoroughbred of Transportation's former NYC main. Certain steam locomotives just look fast even standing still. 3001 is one of those. I think it is the combination of the long clean-lined boiler barrel over the four sets of drivers, coupled with the way the cab kind of hangs back over the single axle Delta trailer truck, almost like the wind is blowing it back. it just looks like a locomotive that is in a hurry to go somewhere fast. Given what is going on with CP-NS and the lack of traction for an organized restoration effort in Elkhart, unfortunately it looks to be that the chances are between Slim and None and Slim left town on the 3:10 to Yuma. But would it be a great locomotive to see running again if the stars aligned, pulling a 21st Century Limited excursion? Most definitely!
Elkhart, Indiana has a real opportunity to do something spectacular here.
First the town was a major repair shop for the New York Central Railroad and the skills remain with the people to maintain and operate a historic steam program. Take for example the number of Recreational Vehicles manufactured in Elkhart County, these companies line the Indiana Turnpike. The skills and abilities for this industry I would argue are the heritage of the New York Central Railroad.
The four track main line and right-of-way of the Great Steel Fleet flowed from Chicago to New York right thru Elkhart, Indiana, that's right the "Empire State Express" and the "Twentieth Century Limited" in all seven section flowed thru Elkhart every day for over 40 years. All were serviced and passed on their way by Elkhart citizens. The New York Central station is directly across the tracks from NYC 3001 and today astute rail travelers may still observe the Central steam heritage as they pass by.
Third, the funds required to restore NYC 3001 are readily available from a number of sources including Elkhart's own fundraising if they even bothered just to create a website and resource gathering base "Fund Operation of NYC 3001" would gather much MONEY even if it was not the major restoration fund source.
For example Milwaukee Railroad 261 - the group who acquired and operates that city's last truely powerful railroad steam locomotive came to Elkhart and offered to also restore and operate NYC 3001 several years ago at no cost to the city of Elkhart. Mayor Dick Moore sent them away empty handed because he simply could not understand or see how these type of engines are restored and operated.
Fourth, Elkhart is the outlying town from Chicago, Illinois with its millions and millions of people just waiting to have a chance to come to Elkart and ride a historic and operational steam locomotive like NYC 3001 - this is an outstanding and sustainable population base for a truely heroic railroad locomotive operation like NYC 3001. Something like Owosso, Michigan with it's Project 1225 who also generated the funds to completely rebuild a turntable and roundhouse, coach yard, station and museum featuring monthy steam excursions. The tourist flow into the Owosso community and its popularity are outstanding. I recall the Governor of Michigan not only riding PM 1225 but declaring to this day "it one of Michigan's major tourist attractions." Check the Michigan web site!
Something heroic for the "Sagamore Of The Wabash" to think about!
Fifth, Elkhart, Indiana is sustaining itself "as a struggling working class community" - it is in fact a gorgeous Victorian town with large stately homes built upon the Elkhart and St. Joseph Rivers. With not only a world class railroad passing thru but a world class Indiana Turnpike also. The New York Central now Norfolk And Southern run through town and are rebuilding the 4 track mainline again out of Chicago - it's a sweetheart American rail city featuring two Amtrack trains and should be looking for a rebirth as such.
An Elkhart first class historic steam railroad could generate such enthusiasm as it has in Owosso Michgian. Owosso has managed to maintain itself because of this as a small American city with a truely functional "downtown district" like we all knew and loved in the 1940's. Seems to me that some of this would be obvious to a city mayor with a REAL civic vision! Watching a historic and TRUELY significant railroad locomotive rust to oblivion along with a city downtown is a fools play - be it a personal or a communal activity!
Yes, Elkhart has painted the NYC 3001 steam locomotive on a large city mural in the center of its downtown - maybe its time to do something more with this civic vision than just a mural. If your not going to use NYC 3001 then give up your lease on it and allow it to be sold to some group that will - why let the scrappers and vandals get it while in your care Elkhart?
kgbw49 - "I guess we'll have to see if SLIM and NONE have left Elkhart on the 3:10 for Chicago! And if Mayor Dick Moore is going on the train with them!"
schlimm Given the party affiliation of Moore's successor, it seems unlikely restoring and operating 3001 would fit in with his agenda. Maybe he will sell it to you? Otherwise it may well head to the scrapper in a budget-cutting orgy.
That long quoted CV sure did't give me any warm fuzzys that things were going to get any better.
27 seconds of "What If" starring Elkhart's very own 3001
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgPAJa39UMQ
Dr DThe four track main line and right-of-way of the Great Steel Fleet flowed from Chicago to New York right thru Elkhart, Indiana, that's right the "Empire State Express" and the "Twentieth Century Limited" in all seven section flowed thru Elkhart every day for over 40 years.
Actually the Empire State Express never ran west Cleveland.
Dr DFourth, Elkhart is the outlying town from Chicago, Illinois with its millions and millions of people just waiting to have a chance to come to Elkart and ride a historic and operational steam locomotive like NYC 3001 - this is an outstanding and sustainable population base for a truely heroic railroad locomotive operation like NYC 3001.
Elkhart is 101 miles by train (111 by car) from Chicago, hardly an outlying town, and definitely not a significant tourist destination for its "millions and millions."
I hope 3001 can be restored but it will require more realistic planning by some group of volunteers, as the other restored engines did.
I was out to Colorado this summer and had a chance to see the Rio Grande narrow gauge railroad run from Antonito to Chama. This extremely rural wilderness area is a significant tourist and railfan attraction in the United States in spite of its largely inaccessable location. The State governments of Colorado and New Mexico were involved in saving the narrow gauge system as historically significant because of the passion they have and possess for THEIR LAND and its part in the rail history of THEIR state. This I believe precluded allowing that historic rail treasure from disapearing. Yes you can go and see the still authentic WILD WESTERN community today.
And what about Chicago finding some sense of ITSELF as the railroad and transportation capital of the nation. In the celebration of its historical tradition? I can't help but thinking of Carl Sandburg's poem,
Chicago - "Laughing the stormy, brawling, husky laughter of youth, half naked, sweating, proud to be Hog Butcher, Tool Maker, Stacker of Wheat, Player with Railroads and Freight Handler to the Nation."
Seems to me Elkhart is as much a part of the larger than life Chicago metropolitan community as anywhere. Yes, imagine a city so large that it encompasses three states, and each unique state government, as well as numerous municipalities, and miles and miles of utilites, water, power, shipping, transportation and factories. Yes, Elkhart, Indiana maybe 100 miles from downtown Chicago but so is everywhere else in Chicago!
Yes it's really about hometown America waiting for a rebirth. Yes, how does a place seared by its past find its future? How does it move on, even as the nation as a whole is constantly burying its history everywhere? Or of forgotten downtowns ringed by cake-box superstores with aircraft carrier parking lots and terrific discounts on six-packs of socks. Yes, how I am reminded of this as I drive past the the predictable sprawl of franchise outlets and equally modern architectural felonies.
I am a nostalgic who likes the history and surprise of old friends meeting by chance outside a building older than their two combined lifetimes. And I like the rumors of regulars at the corner lunchonette. So The National Trust for Historic Preservation helps such towns reclaim their heritage through its "Main Street Program for the resurrection of the American downtown." Whose ongoing business is vacent storefronts reopening, and continual trumphs over rediculous zoning restrictions and blockhead municipal indifference.
Yes railroads were located where they were needed, and it was expected that civilization would follow after them. Across the continent, in hundreds of places were the origins of prosperity - all owing to steam locomotive services and their terminals. Such locomotive facilities were the projection of technology into the American wilderness. Ever expanding across those frontiers like Indiana, and Illinois, and Wyoming were such shops that were the only places within miles featuring metalworking skills, utilities, communication, and sophisticated capacities.
Before the age of high tech communication and before the age of computorization such rail facility as Elkhart, Indiana offered were regarded by rail officals as reliable control points - because knowing where a given locomotive or crew was often just so much speculation - but all knew that sooner or later, every engine and crew would show up to be counted, inspected, serviced, and kept track of.
Such was New York Central and the life it gave to Elkhart, Indiana.
How fortunate that such a town near, yes very near to Chicago should retain part of this its most famous heritage and noble American heritage - how appropriate we should entertain the conjecture, - that knowing city fathers should recognize this and move in appropriate steps to reclaim and celebrate such a heritage.
I should be so lucky as to have two tracks and a whiste let alone authentic steam passenger locomotive such as NYC 3001 to claim as a living part of my community heritage.
Poetic, yet maudlin and unrealistic. You clearly do not know Chicago.
Maybe thw museum billing itself as the National New Hork Central Museum would have at least some additional funds for this project if they hadn't spent money purchasing and transporting to te muaseum site a PRR GG-1 electric loco!
The intern has obviously never resided in or near Chicago. For openers, Illinois, like Gaul, is divided into three parts: Chicago, the suburbs, and downstate. As far as metropolitan politics and policies are concerned, Indiana and Wisconsin are not even part of the pot. Wisconsin is too far away, anyhow.
The Chicago city limits may abut the Indiana state line, but for social, political and cultural reasons, Indiana might as well be Mars. I grew up in Chicago about a mile and a half from the state line and about three miles from downtown Hammond IN. Northwest Indiana is its own metro area and interactions across the state line into Illinois are not that important. NICTD is not an interstate entity like the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, it's an Indiana entity that happens to run into Chicago. Except for NICTD, there is minimal transit service of any kind that crosses the state line.
If Elkhart is part of the Chicago metro area based on its "proximity" to Chicago, then the same could be applied to Rockford, Milwaukee and South Bend.
Neither the Chicago MSA nor CSA include Elkhart. Michigan city is about as far as the stretch goes, with Kenosha at the other extreme. Rockford is not included. And many folks commute from the Kenosha area into the northern suburbs.
I was in Elhkart a couple of months ago and spent a little time wandering around the museum site. I think the engine was there, but they have it stored in such a way it is very difficult to even look at the engine. Not sure why. And they do have two steam railroad cranes that appear very interesting but there is no access.
Well Gee! -
My son is a public defender attorney in Chicago. Seems he has a legal case to represent a couple of fellows who robbed a bank in Chicago, Illiniois then fled through several towns in Indiana before they were caught in a momentous high speed chase involving all the state and municipal law enforcement departments. How shall I resolve this massive community effort in light of such posts?
1 - Chicago, Illinois like Gaul should not cooperate with "that other state" of disrepute - aka Indiana - in regard to apprehension and prosecution of the crime? How could they - yes they - know how to do anything in Indiana?
2 - Chicago, Illinois should lower its high and mighty statehood standards to dane to deal with said hillbillies from Indiana.
3 - Indiana persons living in said hinterland should realize that when they journey to the far off Emerald Green City of Oz - aka Chicago, Illiniois - that they are welcome only as "scuff necks" from such wayward places and should, and will be be handled accordingly.
4 - Next time I am on the Illinois/Indiana/Ohio/Pennsylvania Turnpike I will be sure to slow down put my Jeep in 4 wheel drive to cope with the wagon ruts of passage past that glorious Illinois frontier border.
Yes, Thanks for setting me straight!
Dr. D, it sounds like you might have had the opportunity to see Mohawks in regular service?
What made the Mohawk so valuable to NYC that they invested so heavily in them?
It seems really ironic that "Mountains" were so popular on the Water Level Route.
Might you have some insights to share on the Mohawk on the New York Central?
Thanks for any thoughts you'd be willing to share!
kgb49
Ha! Ha! - here goes!
I do remember as a small child living within ear shot of the two Michigan Central grade crossings - and I myself crossing the road in front of our house to go to our beach at Mullett Lake.
Hearing the train coming and watching up the road as a NYC 2900 series freight Mohawk was pulling a train south. The Mohawk was a beautiful engine and big. The NYC "Mohawk" was really a 4-8-2 "Mountain" wheel type, but Central insisted there were no "mountains" per se on the "Water Level Route."
I also remember the small station at Mullett Lake Village - which is still standing - now a cottage on the lake. A haunted spot filled with the memories of the coming and going of people in the past. The lingering last goodbye's fill the place today.
There my parents took me on an evening summer walk at 9PM to see the night train go south from Mackinac to Detroit. First the headlight then the onrush of the train. The uneasy stop and my dad taking me to look at the immense drive wheels - I was holding a cat which at that moment jumped from my hands and ran in front of the engine. My dad saying - "There goes your cat better go after him." At six years old and sizing up the situation I can remember telling him I was to young to attempt this and might get hurt.
I also remember traveling in the car to Cheboygan and being overtaken by that great black 4-6-4 Hudson coming upon us going north as the road and track ran parallel and crossed. I can see today the imprint on my mind of that famous pilot, boiler front and largeness of that Hudson - almost as big and long as the Mohawk - it was indeed a fleet fast engine and styled as only New York railroaders could give a locomotive grace. Yes imagine such trains running far into northern Michigan past our lake - we were so lucky to have such rail service.
Finally, there was the time mom was taking us north for summer vacation and decided because of the youth of my sister and I, that we would go by Pullman Car berth and on the evening train north from Detroit. Dad took us to the Michigan Central Station - he was just back from WWII not 10 years. And he knew train travel. He got us onto the last car of the train which was a Pullman with upper and lower berths. Mom had a lower and we were to sleep with her on the white sheets behind the heavy curtains. Real exciting stuff! Dad took me to the door at the end of the train and opened it - we looked down the station tracks in the dark. He said "When the train gets going come back here, open the door, and look at the train as it runs and the tracks disapear backwards."
I can remember how hard it was to sleep on the train that night as it pulled out of the station and ran through the miles and miles of rail yards running north of Detroit - so many boxcars and so many crossing gates with red flashing signals to pass. And how that Hudson accelerated the train - it flew forward with a grace like a powerful car does. Later venturing out at dad's instructions - yes mom - the door at the end of the train was locked - and I couldn't see the view as dad promised. I think mom was glad to get me settled for the night. But the view of the heavy curtains running down the car aisle was memorable - and the car was heavy with sleep.
In the morning we went through the vestibules with mom on the way to the dining car. It was an alarming passage through a steel labrynth to go from the one car to the next and so noisey compared to the quiet of the passenger cars when the doors shut. The anticeptic diner provided milk and cereal and we were asking mom continually - "Are we there yet? When will we get there?" Visions of the lake in our minds. The conductor announced unsatifactorally that it "Would be a while yet." I never saw that sleeping Pullman Car again as it had transformed into an unrecognizable coach.
Finally, the train stopped in the middle of nowhere for the longest time. When the conductor came through again an inquiry about the delay provided the half believable answer "The train hit a deer and we had to get it off the track." I pondered the foolishness of deer playing on the track among the green summer leaves and wondered if the engineer had his rifle in the cab and was going to be taking it home for the trophy case. Apparently, on this far end of the railroad there was no hurry to prevent the taking of game from the engine.
Finally, on arrival at Mullet Lake Station we stepped off of the Pullman car vestibule onto the step stool - late on a bright summer morning. I strained to see the engine at the head of the train and couldn't, and had to settle for the faint smoke plume rising above us. Little did I know that this hallowed ground we were stepping onto beside the tracks would later be the land which I would purchase and was to be my lake front beach today.
When I go to Elkhart, Indiana and see Mohawk NYC 3001 - I marvel that only one such magnificent engine has been saved! - and I can stand on the right side of the locomotive looking at the drive wheels - and feel my cat still jump from my arms and run in front of the engine pilot. And I can still hear my dad saying - "There goes your cat Dave - better run and get it. Go right away and it will be safe."
And ponder the seven year old child's wisdom of not stepping in front of such an iron horse of transportation as New York Central provided to grace MY RAILROAD - yes mine! and the memories of my youth!
They were a grace to behold - among the summer trees and along the blue lake - the running at speed of the New York Central's steam locomotives! And when it was summer for young boys - was it ever less exciting?
Dr D Well Gee! - My son is a public defender attorney in Chicago. Seems he has a legal case to represent a couple of fellows who robbed a bank in Chicago, Illiniois then fled through several towns in Indiana before they were caught in a momentous high speed chase involving all the state and municipal law enforcement departments. How shall I resolve this massive community effort in light of such posts? 1 - Chicago, Illinois like Gaul should not cooperate with "that other state" of disrepute - aka Indiana - in regard to apprehension and prosecution of the crime? How could they - yes they - know how to do anything in Indiana? 2 - Chicago, Illinois should lower its high and mighty statehood standards to dane to deal with said hillbillies from Indiana. 3 - Indiana persons living in said hinterland should realize that when they journey to the far off Emerald Green City of Oz - aka Chicago, Illiniois - that they are welcome only as "scuff necks" from such wayward places and should, and will be be handled accordingly. 4 - Next time I am on the Illinois/Indiana/Ohio/Pennsylvania Turnpike I will be sure to slow down put my Jeep in 4 wheel drive to cope with the wagon ruts of passage past that glorious Illinois frontier border. Yes, Thanks for setting me straight! Doc
Sounds like you could use a dose of reality.
Dr. D., you're probably right that the Illinois/Indiana Divide makes little sense. But the fact that it exists is undeniable.
As for the name "mountain" as applied to the 4-8-2, it goes back to C&O's use of the type to handle passenger trains in mountainous areas. Those same trains were handled by 4-6-2's in more level territory. Later, the Mountain type was refined by NYC, I.C., and others to become very fast engines on less mountainous lines. NYC was probably the only road that changed the name to reflect its later high speed water level role.
ACY Dr. D., you're probably right that the Illinois/Indiana Divide makes little sense. But the fact that it exists is undeniable. As for the name "mountain" as applied to the 4-8-2, it goes back to C&O's use of the type to handle passenger trains in mountainous areas. Those same trains were handled by 4-6-2's in more level territory. Later, the Mountain type was refined by NYC, I.C., and others to become very fast engines on less mountainous lines. NYC was probably the only road that changed the name to reflect its later high speed water level role. Tom
The divide is not just an artificial border. It can also be seen in attitudes, in much the same way as many folks in NYC look down on folks across the Hudson. But Elkhart, Indiana is simply not part of Chicagland and the residents of Elkhart would agree.
kgbw49 Dr. D, it sounds like you might have had the opportunity to see Mohawks in regular service? What made the Mohawk so valuable to NYC that they invested so heavily in them? It seems really ironic that "Mountains" were so popular on the Water Level Route. Might you have some insights to share on the Mohawk on the New York Central? Thanks for any thoughts you'd be willing to share!
The L series comprised an intermediate step between the J series Hudsons and the S series Niagaras. The Mohawks generated 12K lbs more tractive effort than the Hudsons, so they could handle the longer trains, including passenger trains. This was important during the war before the Niagaras came on board when large numbers of passengers needed to be moved.
The Bard of the High Iron does it again! Thank you, Dr. D, for sharing those tremendous memories! It must have been something to actually see and hear those exhausts cracking off the miles! Greatly appreciated! Thanks again for a most enjoyable read!
Thanks, Selector! You know, when one thinks about the "inventory" of restored steam, it seems like the absence of a representative of the two titans of the Northeastern US - New York Central and Pennsy - is a gaping hole.
We have 611 operational and maybe someday again 614 representing Super Power passenger service in the mid-Atlantic states, and 1309 and 734 representing pre-Super Power in that region. We have 4501 and 630 representing freight power from the south. We have 765 and 1225 representing Super Power freight hogs of the industrial Midwest-Pennylvania heartland (soon to be joined by 2100), and 261 representing dual service Super Power of the Upper Midwest and Grainger roads, along with 1003 representing the same pre-Super Power. We shall soon have 2926 representing dual service Super Power of the Transcontinental Southwest, and we have 3415 representing Great Plains passenger power (would love to see that doubleheading someday with 2926). We have 3751 and 4449 as additional representatives of "California-style" passenger service Super Power, and 700 as dual service Super Power of the upper Northwest. And of course we have 844 (hopefully soon) and 4014 and 3985 (eventually) representing mountain-climbing Super Power of the Rockies. And I am sure I am leaving some other great locomotives off this list.
But there is no NYC Mohawk or Pennsy M to represent those roads that so dominated the rail industry north of the Ohio River from Illinois to the Hudson River.
So it would seem if there ever is an effort to restore something different than what is already in our operational "collection" in the United States, apologies to the T1 Trust and their magnificent and audacious effort, but the NYC 3001 is most certainly a worthy candidate for that mantle.
Now, if I just hit that Powerball.........
Thanks for the thorough inventory. Hopefully some of the same sort of realistic visionaries that restored those engines will find a way to rescue 3001 from its limbo and restore it to glory.
schlimm Dr D Well Gee! - My son is a public defender attorney in Chicago. Seems he has a legal case to represent a couple of fellows who robbed a bank in Chicago, Illiniois then fled through several towns in Indiana before they were caught in a momentous high speed chase involving all the state and municipal law enforcement departments. How shall I resolve this massive community effort in light of such posts? 1 - Chicago, Illinois like Gaul should not cooperate with "that other state" of disrepute - aka Indiana - in regard to apprehension and prosecution of the crime? How could they - yes they - know how to do anything in Indiana? 2 - Chicago, Illinois should lower its high and mighty statehood standards to dane to deal with said hillbillies from Indiana. 3 - Indiana persons living in said hinterland should realize that when they journey to the far off Emerald Green City of Oz - aka Chicago, Illiniois - that they are welcome only as "scuff necks" from such wayward places and should, and will be be handled accordingly. 4 - Next time I am on the Illinois/Indiana/Ohio/Pennsylvania Turnpike I will be sure to slow down put my Jeep in 4 wheel drive to cope with the wagon ruts of passage past that glorious Illinois frontier border. Yes, Thanks for setting me straight! Doc Sounds like you could use a dose of reality.
Here in 'Sconsin, we have long given up on reality. We hold on to a sense of humor . . .
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
Paul MilenkovicHere in 'Sconsin, we have long given up on reality. We hold on to a sense of humor . . .
Better not quit your day job.
I heard the name Chicago comes from an old Indian word, "chick-a-goo", meaning "smelly river." Is that true?
The way I heard the story, the original site at the mouth of the Chicago River was a swampy, boggy area where a lot of wild onions grew. The name is said to be a corruption of a Native American term meaning "onion place" or some similar meaning. I guess the connectioin between "onion" and "smelly" may be valid. As many are aware, large areas of the Chicago shoreline are actually landfill.
To borrow the title from one of Clint Eastwood's early movies:
For a Few Dollars More
kgbw, got your Powerball ticket for tonight? Me too!
As Clint would say, "Do you feel lucky?"
Love that photo you posted, man that says it all!
schlimm Paul Milenkovic Here in 'Sconsin, we have long given up on reality. We hold on to a sense of humor . . . Better not quit your day job.
Paul Milenkovic Here in 'Sconsin, we have long given up on reality. We hold on to a sense of humor . . .
Excellent advice, especially when persons from outside the state without a sense of humor make for a "hard room."
Cheeseheads have no sense of humor.
schlimm Cheeseheads have no sense of humor.
Having been born in Chicago, I can see where a person whose Wisconsin experience is limited to the Mars Cheese Castle on I-94 reaches such a conclusion
Sounds like you have spent some time behind The Cheddar Curtain!
It is sort of like The Iron Curtain, but instead of pledging loyalty to the Politburo in Moscow, you have to root for the Packers, gosh darnit doncha know.
kgbw49 Sounds like you have spent some time behind The Cheddar Curtain! It is sort of like The Iron Curtain, but instead of pledging loyalty to the Politburo in Moscow, you have to root for the Packers, gosh darnit doncha know.
Bear down, Chicago Bears!
Paul Milenkovic schlimm Cheeseheads have no sense of humor. Having been born in Chicago, I can see where a person whose Wisconsin experience is limited to the Mars Cheese Castle on I-94 reaches such a conclusion
I probably know Wisconsin better than you, since you are in MADison, which is not part of the Dairy State, as any real Wisconsonian would tell you.
schlimm Paul Milenkovic schlimm Cheeseheads have no sense of humor. Having been born in Chicago, I can see where a person whose Wisconsin experience is limited to the Mars Cheese Castle on I-94 reaches such a conclusion I probably know Wisconsin better than you, since you are in MADison, which is not part of the Dairy State, as any real Wisconsonian would tell you.
I suppose I know Illinois, or at least Cook County, as well as anyone given that my parents migrated to Door County, which everyone knows is part of Greater Chicago
I think of myself as maintaining "deep cover" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Chapman.
I haven't drawn too much attention to myself for not hating the Bears, but I compensate for this by being vocal about the Vikings . . .
As to Door County, my wife was born in Evanston, and lived there until her father was transferred to Memphis (while she was in boarding school in Beaver Dam). One September, just before the vernal equinox, the family took a vacation near Ephraim. Going home, they raced an incoming storm, and for some time she thought the storm was the equinox, for people spoke of the coming equinox! In time, she learned better.
Is this thread hijacked?
Johnny
DeggestyIs this thread hijacked?
Maybe a bit, not that it matters. It stopped acomplishing anything a while back now.
Actually the New york Central management sold the 3001 to the Texas & Pacific RR who donated it as one of their 4-8-2s to the Texas State Fair in Dallas, in place of a 2-10-4 that was so badly vandalized that it had to be scrapped. Some years later Elkhart acquired it in a deal struck with Dallas for the swap of (of all things) a Pennsylvania GG-1 electric. Somehow the 2933 managed to escape scrapping and was given to the Museum of Transportation near St Louis. This and the 999 4-4-0 were the only steamers that the NYC itself saved.
The T&P Mountains were nice looking machines, but other than the wheel arrangement bore very little resemblance to an L3. I am glad 3001 is back in "Central" territory - while difficult, it may have a better chance of running some day than if it was down in Frisco, TX.
tcrail,
For what its worth, The City of Elkhart, Indiana has a lease on the NYC 3001 they do not own it in spite of what Mayor Dick Moore has brow beat everyone into accepting.
Municpal Governments really have to stretch to understand what a steam locomotive like this really is. Most often they see them as some kind of scenic attraction until they get expensive to maintain. Then they want them off the property at all costs. Scrapping is none to good for civic leaders when they find a steamer to be just a problem and "in the way."
I think Elkhart has kind of adopted NYC 3001 as "a pet house dog." That makes the living room look cozy on rainy nights. Hopefully they will come to a better historic sence of what they have leased and is resting on their municipal property.
Maybe I have misunderstood. I thought the City of Elkhart (or its Parks Dept.) owned it and the Museum leased it for an extended period. If the arrangement is different, please clarify.
Steam locomotive NYC 3001 is owned by Lakeshore Railroad Historical Foundation who owns all the rolling stock at the The National New York Central Museum. The City of Elkhart only owns the property and building at the Elkhart museum site.
I do not know who are the current officers of the Lakeshore Railroad Historical Foundation but the City has leased the engine from the foundation for $1, - I also do not know what are the exact terms of this lease.
The City of Elkhart purchased the land and former restaurant which are now the museum site from Robert Spaugh, but they only got a lease on the railroad equipment.
The restoration group that did work on the engine for a while were driven off by Mayor Dick Moore who stopped the restoration project in some form of civic fight with the group. Mayor Moore removed the former museum director Mark Frazier. Ron Troyer who held some position as a director of the museum did an about face walked out of the museum also in some type of a political move. He then ran for and was elected to the Elkhart City Council. Ron Troyer who was once so involved in the Museum and restoration project says "I am totally removed from the whole museum and it's a shame what happened there." Mayor Moore then set up Robin Hume from Elkhart Parks and Recreation Department as museum director.
We are all hoping a new change in Elkhart City Mayor will result in a more historically oriented direction for the museum and the locomotive. History really demands this and it will only be to Elkhart's disgrace if the engine continues to deteoriate and the opportunity to preserve it falls on deaf and dumb civic ears.
Mayor Moore billed Elkhart as the "City with a Heart." Unfortunately this uneducated mayor was apparently not able to tell the difference between "hart" and "heart." About the only heart the city has had for NYC 3001 has been the fiberglass one with antlers painted orange and located in the center of town. Certainly no HEART to really preserve NYC 3001 nor to the desire of the people of our great nation to so see OUR steam locomotive and OUR steam railroad heritage developed to its full potential - or for full potential for the community!
Nor has Mayor Moore any concern for Bob Spaugh who recently died and the many others who were working so hard on the RETURN NYC 3001 TO STEAM restoration project.
The engine shows evidence of being stopped in the midst of a preservation effort. Early pictures of it in Elkhart show a historically correct fully jacketed boiler with engine feed water injectors and feed water piping and entire throttle linkage in place. Basically the whole boiler intact. They also show the sand dome and sanding valves as well as the sheet metal encased boiler appliance turret (located in front of the engine cab) intact and in place. These boiler features and coverings and appliances have been removed. I assume to paint and protect the boiler.
Discussion with the museum staff says they never existed but the photos tell otherwise. The engine bell, whistle and other parts that were at one time on the engine, were involved in an ownership squable, but it is uncertain what has happened to this equipment.
Photos and observation today show NYC 3001 looks stripped and has so been for the last several years - which is a shame because when you take this stuff off a locomotive and don't put it back on - the knowledge of how it goes together is lost - and the pile of parts get towards the junk pile - or into someone's private collection.
Except for local Elkart civic perception the whole Museum and its direction appears - to the knowing historian or railfan - as a bit of joke. But I believe that's about all that Mayor Moore wanted out of the whole thing - he wasn't the kind of guy who could tell anything about the engine except maybe that the headlight was ON or OFF - or that maybe it had left town pulling the last train to YUMA at 3:10 - and wasn't around to be a "pain in the ass" anymore.
Check the earlier pages in January of this post for the full details!
Thanks (I think).
We toured the museum during the LOTS convention in South Bend, July 2008, and thought 3001 looked nice at that time. Also, I have the Lionel version (numbered 3000) produced in 1990. I hope they will at least preserve her cosmetically.
I could possibly be taking a trip to Elkhardt come the 1st or 2nd month of the new year. If I go, I'll be sure to come back with lost of pictures and some truth on 3001, what condidtion she's actually in, ect. (And compare her to her sister 2933 at my local museum)
For now, 3001 is nowhere near the road to restoration. And it'll take one hell of a group to get her to the point where restoration can begin. I find this akin to when SLSF 1522 was restored by the SLSTA in the '80s. I am friends with many of her excursion and restoration crew members, and you wouldn't believe how many hoops they had to jump through just to prove themselves capable of restoring a loco; this was before they even started a study to pick their engine.
I will say that you are correct about a group capable of steam restoration - its not "rocket science" but it takes commitment planning and a fortitude and long term follow thru. As I said I was involved in restoration of Pere Marquette Project 1225 in the 1970s which was done by the students at Michigan State University. We were young and knew how to resource and the restoration was easily accomplished given time and patience.
The Lakeshore Railroad Historical foundation/ New York Central Railroad Museum group which was attempting to restore NYC 3001 through the City of Elkhart was on their way - beginning the project in the 2000 - 2006 time period.
The Lansing, Michigan PM 1225 project had no better facility or crew than this. What we did have was the approval and help of the Michigan State University Administration which supported our efforts. Conversely the Mayor of Elkhart Indiana, Dick Moore apparently provided none of this. After giving much publicized verbal support he eventually destroyed the morale of the group and disbanded the museum/foundation working on the project. The museum and community appear to have been "burned" by this civic fight and mayoral takeover. There was a bitter changing of the guard at the NYC museum staff that left Robert Spraugh and other foundation members taking what they felt belonged to them and vacating the premises.
IT MUST BE REMEMBERED that Robert Spaugh had purchased the museum property established a theme restaurant there followed by the entire museum structure and collected exhibits. He set this all up as the Lakeshore Railroad Historical Foundation. The City of Elkhart came in good faith "asking to support what he was doing." After a period of years and a different mayor, the city pulled a hostile takeover of all the original foundation/city museum structure and what it was trying to accomplish in the operation of NYC 3001.
IT MUST BE REMEMBERED that Robert Spaugh is the one who brought NYC 3001 4-8-2 Mohawk to Elkhart - on his own - as well as all the great NYC passenger equipment - streamline "lightening stripe" passenger equipment and matching GM "E" unit diesel engine - which in its own right should be restored. And yes an original 1939's NYC freight caboose - and assorted other RR equipment, and set up the whole rail collection on his property.
In would appear that Robert in an effort to help preserve his collection at the coming of his old age negotiated with the City of Elkhart to insure the survival of the museum and the collection. Robert sold the musem and leased the railroad equipment to Elkhart and found that like many other things "security in old age" can be elusive.
Make no mistake here - Bob really accomplished something significant for all of us - Because there now remains ONE, yes ONE New York Central passenger steam locomotive from the great age of steam. Further - it is the last of its kind - after so many engines and so much American railroad history - after so many years of the New York Central Railroad providing the major transportation for our nation. Yes ONE - only ONE passenger engine survives - AND it's not in some far off city museum - but HERE right next to the tracks - the "four track mainline" - great wide way - on which it ran - pulling such famous name trains - filled with presidents, move stars - the rich the famous along with everybody else.
Yes, with headlight on - and green classification lamps lit - (to mark the second section train to follow) in the rail yard in Elkhart, Indiana - there remains - facing east - "AS IF to pull to the front of a train and run to New York - there remains TODAY one engine.
In the bosom of the heart of the railroad empire for which it ran. For all - for everyone to see - YES as if it just left Chicago's La Salle Street terminal and ran the 100 miles east - and paused at Elkhart - across all these years looking east - waiting for the throttle to be pulled again - brakes released - stoker fired - to continue ON the run to Toledo, and Cleveland, and Buffalo, and Rochester, and Syracuse and Albany. To arrive tomorrow morining at NYC Grand Central Station.
Yes Robert Spaugh gave US this understanding and this memory - and this engine NYC 3001 and its history to Elkhart Indiana which if anyone should appreciate these things.
Yes I did mechanically look over NYC 3001 last month and - pertinent to our earlier discussion a year ago, the Valve Pilot Indicator which all NYC passenger locomotives had - is missing the mounting bracket located just above the drive wheels - right side - a huge steel casting holding the air brake resevoir tank to the boiler - an extension of this has been cut off with an acetylene torch. And inside the locomotive a the engineer controls, the "recording console with indicators" also for this device is also missing.
THE CAB - itself is mostly stripped and has only the firebox doors - the brake stands, the throttle quadrant, the power reverse wheel and the engineman seats remain. Gone are all the steam and air gauges, the water glass and manual water level test drain - ie the manual water valves are gone also - as is the cab interior and instrument lighting. On the Firemans side of the locomotive cab - the stoker jet controls remain in place but all the other fireman controls, and pyrometer and water gauge are missing.
THE ENGINE TURRET - which is a sheet hooded covering ahead of the cab - which housed the steam supply manifiold - which was located in front of the cab - with all the valves and controls are gone. The fireman's front window frame has been pulled loose into the cab but remains there - both cab side windows are functional.
THE TENDER - yes the famous automatic "water scoop" and its mechanism are missing from underneath the tender - but the large cast steel frame that mounted it is still there on the bottom of the tender. The automatic train control relay box - and the coal pusher are missing from the top of the tender - so is the rear engine headlight and left rear tender steps. Inside however - the coal bunker remains intact as well as the stoker auger screw in its trough.
THE TENDER TOP - whole top of the tender - of the coal bunker has been cut off level - about a foot of its height - and a really tacky "fake oil bunker" has been tack welded on the top. The coal bunker gates and chains in the cab companionway are gone and replaced with some sheet metal doors with large holes cut in them with an acetylene torch - the holes are a sort of weird vandalism. ALSO - the stoker engine access hatch on the right side of the tender appears welded up - uncertain if the stoker engine is still inside - the coal conveyor intermediate tube and its inner worm are gone - as well are the stoker elevator and steam distribution table into the firebox - both removed by TEXAS AND PACIFIC.
THE FIREBOX - remains complete within the boiler - the ash pan remains also and has its long traditional outer air intakes - formed on the ash pan along side of the firebox - this air intake has been cut off and welded shut using small steel plates - for a simulated TEXAS PACIFIC RR oil fired firebox design. The firebox grates and mechanism are missing - but the grate shaker toggles are on the floor of the cab if I remember right.
LOCOMOTIVE FRAME - DRIVERS - RODS - CYLINDERS and running gear are all entirely intact and unchanged as are both cross compound air pumps - the Nathan locomotive lubricator - electrical turbo generator - brake air reservoir tanks and both front and rear locomotive trucks are unchanged - no steam booster engine was used on the rear truck of NYC 3001 - the feed water pump and Worthington feed water heater remain in place - and it was is nice to see that none of this high speed running gear has been touched.
BOILER TOP - missing are the safety valves - sand dome remains but sander valves are partially missing - the sheet metal cover for the steam dome is missing - the external throttle linkage and its pivot gone - As are the locomotive boiler sheet metal jacketing and bands missing and the "engine turret" sheet metal hood for the right side of the locomotive - the left side remains partially pulled foreward.
THE WHISTLE which is purportedly in the hands of the foundation member that negotiated the moving of the engine from Texas. The original headlight and nameboard - if I remember - were at some point in Robert Spaugh's control. Unfortunately Bob died this past year. Headlight and name board are perportedly from another engine. No engine bell and what happened to it I have not heard.
Some of NYC 3001 cab appliances and gauges are in the hands of the Elkhart Museum but the other items are not accounted for at my last inquiry with the Elkhart museum.
Yes it was nice to see the elephant ear smoke deflectors added - they hide the stripped boiler - and it would be nice if the staff that added them were as concerned about the other "missing in action" parts. Throttle linkage should be replaced along with the engine turret there is no reason to leave these things off unless restoration is in process. If the right side turret hood is missing this should be fabricated and replaced and can't be more difficult than the elephant ear smoke deflectors.
It must be remembered that many engines - C&O 614 for example - were in worse condition have been restored - but each item that goes astray is one more headache to be replaced. And misguided individuals that take this stuff home should bring it back - but scrappers that steal it should be shot. In my humble opinion.
After going over the intern's laundry list, it occurred to me that many of the missing parts are no longer manufactured, meaning that a replacement would be a custom job that's going to be expensive. Many of the cab fittings could be substituted with something that currently exists, analog gauges haven't changed that much. I wonder about the condition of the wheel bearings, that could be a problem.
I've also observed that he has danced around the issue of where the money is going to come from. It's going to take a lot of individual donors to come up with enough money just to get a foot in the front door, much less actually get anything accomplished.
You are right about the assorted analog gauges as most of this missing engine stuff can be re created as the British are doing with their new rebuild engines - the thing is the New York Central had a "company style" in equiping all their engines with certain standard features. It would be a shame to loose this. It would be nice to know if some inventory exists of these removed NYC 3001 parts or if they are just flat out lost or stolen. The existance of the other remaining 4-8-2 Mohawk NYC 2933 also is a model to guide to any rebuilding. Most engines that were roller bearing equipped seem to have bearings that survived long term storage - such as the long 15-20 year outside wait C&O 614 had in Russell Kentucky and still has at the Greenbrier hotel. Obviously the equipment removed by TEXAS AND PACIFIC is not going to be around.
TEXAS AND PACIFIC removed items would be -
Tender coal pusher and stoker intermediate conveyor and elevator. Tender water scoop and upper one foot of structure cut off from the tender coal bunker.
Engine "firebox grates" and "grate shakers" along with the sheet metal ashpan sides which were cut off. "Valve Pilot Indicator" mechanism and its bracket which was similarly cut off.
New York Central ancient General Railway Signals Co. "automatic train control equipment" which included a track sensor called a "receiver," located on the tender behind the front truck. A relay box or "mechanism" located on the tender tank top behind the coal bunker and near the coal pusher. Also a control box in the cab with a "forstaller" lever and an "actuator" control which was attached to the engine brake stand. The "actuator" looked to still be in the cab today. Equipment which prevented the locomotive engineer from passing certain points on the railroad without acknowledging he was in control of the train. 1930's era safety equipment similar to what the Federal Government is requiring for modern railroads today.
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Elkhart Indiana removed items...
All cab appliances - all boiler top appliances - entire throttle mechanism - low water alarm - sander valves - safety valves - whistle - bell - turret and all appliances. Boiler sheet metal jacketing.
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One really hopeful additions to NYC 3001 is an entire spare locomotive tender. Yes the engine tender from 4-8-2 Mohawk NYC 3042 has survived and is in Elkhart. It is located just behind NYC 3001 on the storage track so that there are two almost duplicate tenders. NYC 3042 has the entire coal bunker that was cut off from NYC 3001 so a fairly elaborate weld job could restore the tender of NYC 3001. Also many of the missing tender artifacts - rear engine headlight - tender rear steps - companion way gates etc can be removed from the second tender.
Unfortunately just swapping tenders seems unlikely as the drawbar attachment for the NYC 3042 tender has been cut and welded with a replacement freight car coupler making it in effect a "water car" with a coupler at each end. This spare tender also has none of the remaining missing stoker auger and stoker engine parts still remaining on the NYC 3001 tender.
Obviously NYC 3001 is entirely restorable with a resonable effort.
Glad you enjoyed the text!
Great post.
Great stuff, doc. But the stats tell why the Niagara was the premier NYC locomotive. If you've seen one blow by, you'll understand.
Additional research into the NYC 3001 situation.
The owners of the locomotive Lake shore Railroad Historical Foundation regularly meet on site at the National New York Central Museum. Membership seems a pretty priviledged honor and apparently they charge "dues" of the Foundation members.
Some of the missing NYC 3001 equipment is in fact in possession of the museum but not on the locomotive. The original locomotive bell and the engine gauges - pyrometer - boiler pressure - stoker distribution steam gauge - stoker engine pressure gauge and steam heat gauge to the train are on display in the museum.
The original whistle has been taken as has the original headlight which was in the office and possession of the former museum director and left with him.
A more careful examination of the cab and boiler clearly shows that at one time - i'm guessing circa 2006 - a mechanical overhaul of NYC 3001 was in process. The smoke box cover accessing the multiple valve throttle has been removed and not replaced - a few nuts and a temporary cover are over this gaping hole in the top smokebox. The boiler flues have all been removed. Several staybolt caps are missing on the firebox. All of the sander valves and piping are removed and the sandbox has been lifted off and then returned to the boiler top without being bolted down.
Various amounts of piping and their brackets have been removed and nuts partially screwed onto the protruding threads.
The engine turret has been unbolted and pulled forward on the left side - the right side cover and its framing are removed entirely. The left forward cab window and its framing assembly have been removed from the cab and left lying around in the locomotive cab. The cab window on the right side - is still installed but left wide open to the rain and elements.
Clearly, it looks as if a crew of mechanics had gone to work and partially disassembled everything in the cab and on the boiler top. In fact it's just as if this crew had been hard at work - and then suddenly told to stop, and so they just quit - dropping everything in place.
But this is NYC 3001 - the last New York Central passenger engine - and any steam locomotive so prepared for display - should have none of this obvious abandon maintaince activity. If and when it was disassembled it should have been immediately then re-assembled and prepared for display purposes.
At the Museum Of Transport in St. Louis, MO for example - NYC 2933 went through a complete cosmetic overhaul - and you didn't see the museum staff just "knock off" work half way thru the project - for 10 years - and then abandon half the parts!
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At this time I also examined the NYC 3001 locomotive tender - and the bogus work Texas and Pacific Railroad went thru to cosmetically change the NYC 3001 tender to resemble one of their own engines.
Specifically I was looking at the damage done to the coal bunker it having the sides trimmed down about twelve inches to resemble a Texas Pacific 900 series engine. This tender sheet metal had been simply cut off along the top sides - and the "bead" forming the edge then rewelded or re-rivited to the now cut down shorter surface.
What looked in photos to be a "rolled bead edge" of the tender top was in fact a half round steel molding rivited to the edge forming decorative edgeing. To repair this new steel sides could be made and then welded back onto the tender to form the upper curved upper surface.
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Considering that the Elkhart Museum has just gone to all the trouble to add the missing "elephant ear smoke deflectors" to the front of NYC 3001 - it seems odd not to have tackled the much more important work of repairing the tender and replacing the locomotive boiler turret and boiler top parts.
Why leave a priceless engine like NYC 3001 standing "agape" with its smoke box open the elements and other important sheet metal removed? For cryin out loud anyway - this a museum isn't it!
Lack of funds may have a lot to do with this situation. Restoring a deteriorating steam locomotive is not the only responsibility that the Museum has.
The only Doctor D with which I'm familiar in a railroad context is Rudolf Diesel.
I think what Dr D says is true. Also there is some personal animosity with that museum
CSSHEGEWISCHThe only Doctor D with which I'm familiar in a railroad context is Rudolf Diesel.
Pretty sure not. I believe Diesel's degree was Dipl.-Ing. (which can be borne out by his title on the heat-engine patent itself) which really corresponds to masters level, not doctoral. I would not be surprised to find that DPM did his research before using "Mister D's Machine".
Continuing on NYC 3001 -
My reaction to the New York Central Railroad Museum was unique. That area of Indiana is striking in its difference from major urban museum settings. Odd in some ways are the invitation of the hostess in the office that took my $5 entrance fee and invited me to enjoy the exhibits and go into any of the rail equipment on display.
Yes, where can you have sole and private access to such? I explored the 1904 wooden NYC caboose - locked only with a cupboard hook. Climbed the cupola examined it to the full of my curiosity. The Pennsylvania GG1 - open to the homeless or any inquisitor - want to explore a GG1 help yourself. Wander thorugh stainless steel passenger cars unobserved. And of course the NYC 3001 - climb the engine for a boiler front photo - sure - into the cab - sure - stick your head behind the crosshead or between the drivers - sure. Examine the massive cast steel engine frame up close - sure. And yes climb under the tender and stand up up into the water scoop intake just to get and inside look - sure. Onto the tender holding those massive lathe turned handrail stanchions - onto the tank top and open the water hatch - climb down into the tank itself. And yes, I did enjoy the engineers seat elbow out the window looking down today the former NYC mainline - pulled the throttle - spun the power reverse handle - train and engine brakes at my left hand.
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Yes, the General Railway Signals Automatic Train Control equipment is still in the cab. Upon the brake stand is the "Actuator" and beside the engineers right leg is the "Forstaller" still in place. Missing are the "reciever" located near the rail behind the front tender truck and the "relay box" located behing the coal bunker on the tender top.
The Run Of The Twentieth Century by Edward Huntington describes the use of the equipment:
"...That something else is the unseen hand upon the throttle - the automatic electric train-stop, that is America's latest gift to the safety of railroads, the whole world over...For it is this last mechanism (upon the locomotive itself) that actually stops the engine in case the engineer ever should forget and overlook the red signal and attempt to run past it. Then and there, he loses control of his engine. Then and there, it is the unseen hand upon the throttle that asserts itself. No idle phrase, that. The electrical device, technically termed a reciever, mounted on the engine tender, and which rides so close to the edge of the rail, is in the jargon of the electrical engineer "choked" or made inoperative when signals indicate proceed, and operative when signals indicate stop. This choking efect is transmitted electro-mechanically to the electrical device mounted on the ends of the ties 70 feet from the signal. The choking is caused by the electrical device on the locomotive in the close proximity with the electrical device on the ends of the ties. When choked no inductive effect is transmitted to the device on the locomotive. However, when the device on the ends of the ties is not choked as the reciever passes over it, a sudden change in the electrical current passing through the coil on the device on the locomotive is set up and this at once applies the brakes. Stopage of the train is rendered complete immediately."
Wow - I find it hard to believe all the New York Central passenger power would be using this equipment. Two of the required devices of early train control - the "actuator" on the train engineer's brakestand and the "forstaller" located at his right leg are still in the cab of NYC 3001.
Missing also of course, are the stories of the use of this device! Of NYC steam locomotives running with throttle open and - then - the train brake suddenly being applied due to engineer error or equipment malfucntion.
Similar to the later "dead mans pedal" used on diesel electric locomotives where the engineer is required to keep his foot in place on the "go button." Or to substitue a tool box to relieve the responsibility.
Yes, I can't imagine the throttle open and train brakes suddenly coming on the speeding Twentieth Century Limited - because of some foul up in this 1930's electrical technology. Yes, there must be more to this device than a cursory description of it indicates. Missing are - all of this common knowledge to the experienced New York Central steam locomotive engineer of the time.
It would be interesting to hear if NYC 2933 surviving in St. Louis is also so equipped General Railway Signals Automatic Train Control. Of course getting access to the cab and onto the engine would be much more difficult.
Dr D, You're commentary is, as usual, spot on, full of common sense, and facts that are undeniable. Can you possibly come to the IRM and inject this knowledge and common sense to the Board of lack of direction?
locojacket -
Love to come to visit IRM - kick me a message about it!
NYC 3001 Mohawk - does the Valve Pilot Indicator exist?
Answer - yes partially
After examination of the locomotive and museum I have found most of the equipment to exist in Elkhart.
What is the Valve Pilot Indicator? - a "black box" computor device invented in circa 1940 which allows the locomotive speedometer to indicate the proper setting of the steam admission valves of the running locomotive.
The locomotive reverse/forward adjustment is used for this purpose. At speed the locomotive engineer draws back the forward/reverse mechanism - more towards a neutral position allowing the conservation of steam and increased speed of the locomotive. This adjustment was performed prior to 1941 through the "feel" which was developed by the engineer from years of service - The Valve Pilot Indicator makes this adjustment easily and with greater accuracy.
Actually the Valve Pilot Indicator is a fairly simple device consisting of (1) an accurate speedometer attached to the locomotive drive wheels, and (2) a small housing or box on the side of the engine with a rod connected to the locomotive valve gear which communicates the valve travel and transfers this information hydraulically to the (3) enhanced speedometer and computing mechanism in the engine cab.
This enhanced speedometer (3) also had a small "reel to reel" paper recording tape to indicate engineer usage - of a locomotive if it was so equiped.
The Valve Pilot Indicator was a late steam age device - a "locomotive accessory" - and was designed and patented by Fay D.Welden of Tuckahoe, NY who was given U.S. Patent US2309684 - applied for in 1941 and granted on Feb 2, 1943 and whose manufacture was assigned to the Valve Pilot Corporation of NY.
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Most of all the New York Central steam locomotives had this equipment sometime after 1940. Service was apparently discontinued on the repair of these Valve Pilot Indicator devices on the railroad sometime in the mid 1950's and photos after this time period show it removed on some locomotives.
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NYC 3001 Mohawk in Elkhart, IN, has in place the (1) accurate locomotive speedometer attached to the right rear engine drive wheel - which includes a very small oil motor and its piping to the cab. Also - residing in the museum itself - and in perfect condition are the (3) enhanced speedometer and cam computation box with paper recorder. (It's painted grey and looks like a parking meter.)
NYC 3001 Mohawk is missing (2) the small indicator housing or box on the side of the engine with its attaching connecting rod to the locomotive valve gear and oil piping to the locomotive cab enhanced speedometer (3). As mentioned, the speedometer portion of the Valve Pilot Indicator mechanism (1) remains entirely intact.
This NYC 3001 missing part - (2) small indicator housing or box from the side of the engine - was attached to the locomotive boiler by means of a bracket to a large steel casting bolted to the boiler. This bracket was designed to hold this indicator housing or box (2) above the second drive wheel on the right side of the locomotive where it could pick up motion from the reverse mechanism.
It is unfortunate that this indicator box - (2) - is missing because it is the most identifiable part of the Valve Pilot Indicator system and is also most often seen and identified in photos of NYC locomotives.
I would guess the Texas & Pacific Railroad removed it from NYC 3001 - likely because they did not use the VPI system on the Texas & Pacific RR.
Also partially damaged on NYC 3001 is the "mounting bracket" for part (2) the indicator housing box - the "Air Brake Resevoir Tank bracket" - located on the right side of the engine - which bracket has been partially cut off with an oxy-acetylene torch. This damage which would make the replacement of - part (2) the indicator housing box - somewhat difficult.
Examination of photos of sister Mohawk NYC 2933 which survives in St. Louis, Missouri show this Valve Pilot Indicator mounting bracket to be present - unfortunately minus the (2) indicator housing box. The bracket is in place below the train Air Brake Reservoir Tank of NYC 2933 as discribed above. NYC 2900 engines likely had this added later in their service life, whereas NYC 3001 likely had the Valve Pilot Indicator system built into the locomotive at manufacture by American Locomotive Co.
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Locating a blueprint for this (2) "indicator box" or and actual "indicator box" from another locomotive would make the replacement of a reproduction system possible on NYC 3001 - a fully functional VPI system should be a possibility especially considering that the critical "design computor cam parts" still exist and are located in the still remaining engine cab speedometer (3).
The Fay D. Welden US Patent is available "on line" which includes an extensive explanation of the Valve Pilot Indicator operation - Google - "Steam Locomotive Valve Pilot Indicator.
One for Dr. D:
Out of the wash rack and on the ready track...
Dr DLocating a blueprint for this (2) "indicator box" or and actual "indicator box" from another locomotive would make the replacement of a reproduction system possible on NYC 3001 - a fully functional VPI system should be a possibility especially considering that the critical "design computor cam parts" still exis
NYCSHS has all the necessary drawings, almost certainly including the bracket. The external box, wheel, and representative linkage parts (enough to dimension replacements and re-create the joints and end fittings) still exist on Frisco 1351 in Collierville; I don't know what the situation for her sister 1352 is, but since that locomotive is slated for restoration, it should be easy to arrange access to the necessary parts if still equipped -- ask on RyPN to contact the people involved?
The cam itself is the one critical piece that is needed to make the system 'work' correctly; I believe there are calibrated parts inside the 'needle-matching' gauge that are also significant, but both those pieces are present.
Now, if 3001 is rebuilt with any front-end 'improvements', it might be necessary to experiment a bit with the cam profiles while the engine is being indicator tested. But that is not a particularly severe engineering exercise ... nor is having a university shop machine you an updated cam...
Update please. Any news on NYC 4-8-2 Mohawk #3001? Progress on restoration (running or static display)?
John,
I have made several visits to see NYC 3001 on occasional trips to Chicago. I have talked to Steve Dinehart who was at one time a board member of Lakeshore Railroad Historical Foundation (owners of NYC 3001) who has been very willing to discuss the situation in Elkhart, Indiana.
Regarding NYC 3001 - there seems to be some uncertainty as to the condition of the locomotive when it left Dallas, Texas and was towed to Indiana free of charge by the Union Pacific Railroad. It is unclear if restortion attempts were made in Dallas before the engine was clearly understood not to be a Texas Pacific 900 series locomotive. Photos of it on display in Dallas show a complete locomotive boiler jacket intact on NYC 3001.
Present conditon of NYC 3001 differs from this. The entire boiler jacketing and many of the external appliances have been removed. The throttle linkage for example as well as the sheetmetal locomotive turret housing. The cab and most of its appliances have been removed leaving the Nathan water column and brake stand in place in the cab.
It is unclear if local scrappers have breached the chain link fence to remove metal from the engine or if the missing equipment is part of a thwarted restoration attempt and the equipment is in storage. Reports of museum storage problems have also surfaced - confusion of what parts belong to NYC 3001 and where they are located and what is and is not scrap.
Steve has informed me that the boiler flues have been removed from the boiler - which he seemingly considers preservation condition - and it is uncertain from talking to him if the super heater elements - tubes and their ends have been saved. The smoke box access cover over the throttle header has been removed and the smokebox left open to the elements - and oddly the smokestack has been capped with a plate and weight - moisture is thoroughly circulating through this opening and the open firebox.
The headlight was taken by the former museum director when he left his post. The Lakeshore Railroad Historical Foundation which as I said owns the locomotive asked the lessor City of Elkhart to legally persue and recover the lost headlight but the city mayor Dick Moore refused.
The whistle was taken at the time the engine was moved from Dallas to Elkhart by one of the locomotive crew entrusted to care for the engine in transit. I have not heard of any effort to recover it. Much important equipment from the cab of the engine has been removed and stored or is on display such as the "pyrometer," and "boiler pressure gauge." The unique "speedometer with valve pilot indicator" is partially present on the locomotive and the "console" for this system is in the museum.
Former Elkhart Mayor Dick Moore has effectively stopped all the attempts to restore and operate and maintain the engine and the Lakeshore Railroad Historical Foundation group seem depressed over this turn of events. There still remains available to the LRHS an unused factory with rail access to house the restoration effort but without the museum volunteer group which was disbanded by former Mayor Dick Moore.
Heavy handed former Mayor Dick Moore seems to have established his views of the situation "as the only relevant one," that (1) the city of Elkhart has a 99 year lease of the locomotive for $1. (2) The city of Elkhart owns the New York Central Railroad Museum whose employees are NOT to be involved in the restoraton of NYC 3001. (3) There are NO volunteer crew or effort of railfans allowed on museum property to keep-up the engine - none are welcome or allowed by the city to maintain NYC 3001.
This jaded administrative perspective should be challenged legally by Lakeshore Railroad Historical Foundation and or their legal representatives (attorneys) wishing to "establish the intended use of the locomotive and its present deterioration under the care of the city as a JUSTIFIABLE CAUSE to break the contract," this could establish a legal issue sufficient to dispute and break this disfunctional lease agreement with the city.
In other words A GOOD LAWYER is needed to establish that the city and its agent National New York Central Railroad Museum have broken faith with the intents of the Lakeshore Railroad Historical Foundation in leasing the engine - and broken the implied fiduciary responsibility of keeping or allowing the Lakeshore Railroad Historical Foundation and its volunteers to maintain the engine in good care and or maintain its future historical relevance and use. By selfishly allowing NYC 3001 to deteriorate thru city neglect to the elements of rain and snow and its poor and minimal upkeep former Mayor Dick Moore has given the city a very poor legal standing in this situation.
The stolen headlight taken by a National New York Central Railroad Museum city employee is a good example of the broken legal responsibility the city has towards maintaining its care and oversight of the locomotive. It seems fairly clear that as a politician, former mayor Moore just didn't give a damn about NYC 3001 or the museum and that they were just a sideshow to his civic issues. All that is needed is a complaint filed for breach of contract over the trust issues of the lease.
Unless this situation is challenged legally the engine is going nowhere until Elkhart city government decides it wants to do something different with it.
Thankfully Elkhart has a new Mayor Tim Neese and it is unclear where he stands on the whole New York Central Railroad Museum and its star attraction NYC 3001 - its restoration and or operation. Now it the time to speak up for the future of NYC 3001. Possibly Mayor Tim Neese would be amenable to changing the whole unworkable relationship with the museum and foundation.
Former Mayor Moore, you liar! we are glad to see you out! You talked to the press about everything you were doing and going to do to see NYC 3001 operate - you generated all kinds of effort on the part of the restoration community and yet behind the scenes you did exactly the opposite and did everything you could to stop it! - we are all glad to see you gone out of the mayors office!
Some clear understanding and good legal action on the part of the foundation could move NYC 3001 towards effective operation and resolve all of these issues. The ball is in their court! How about standing behind your former restoration activity and getting on with a little heavy handed "SAVE NYC 3001" activity?
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Possibly Governor Mike Pence of Indiana, and new Vice Presidental candidate would like to make NYC 3001 a case in point for the re-industrialization of coal burning America.
We all might e-mail him to that effect, and while at it asking Donald Trump for some historical grant funds to complete the whole project. Lets get with it Elkhart!
And Yah, "railfans searching for other straws" is also under consideration,
Thank you for your report. It's so sad that nothing more has been done and the outlook is bleak. Fans of the New York Central dream of the day that they will see a living, breathing example NYC steam.
Dr D Why is this such a strange concept to them? If they ran excursions from Elkhart to Chicago tourists would come from all over the world to Elkhart to ride it!
Why is this such a strange concept to them? If they ran excursions from Elkhart to Chicago tourists would come from all over the world to Elkhart to ride it!
What exactly makes you so sure that people would come out and ride it? The NKP 765 group just had to cancel a main line steam trip due to low ticket sales, and that was a trip out of Chicago. If a trip that originates out of a city that has over 10 million people living its metropolitan area can't sell enough tickets to make it, why would a trip succeed out of a much smaller area? Even if you were able to make a go out of it in the begining, would it have the staying power to still draw passengers once the "newness" of riding behind a NYC steam locomotive wears off?
Why do you think the NS would permit it to run on their major east west route? While the NS does permit steam excursions, they are with outfits that the NS is familiar with, and have demonstrated professionalism and reliability to be operating on NS's trackage. To think the NS will let them run just because they have a hot steam engine is wishfull thinking at best.
It does not appear as though the city of Elkhart has a lot of extra money, and to spend some of it on a "if build it and they will come" wish doesn't sound like the best use of the city's limited resources.
An "expensive model collector"
Perhaps the best hope for it to ever run again is if Jerry Joe Jacobsen is somehow able to acquire it for his Age of Steam Roundhouse Collection. He does not have a 4-8-2 in his portfolio of steam. At least there no matter what it would be well cared for, which seems to not be the case in Elkhart per Dr. D's report.
Too bad this one wasn't saved somehow...IC 2613...
What it was all about on the New York Central - bringing black ink to the bottom line...
kgbw49What it was all about on the New York Central - bringing black ink to the bottom line...
Seems as though nothing has changed. At least not in the former mayor's office anyways.
Trains, trains, wonderful trains. The more you get, the more you toot!
n012944Why do you think the NS would permit it to run on their major east west route? While the NS does permit steam excursions, they are with outfits that the NS is familiar with, and have demonstrated professionalism and reliability to be operating on NS's trackage. To think the NS will let them run just because they have a hot steam engine is wishfull thinking at best.
You are correct to question whether NS would allow the 3001 to run on the ex-NYC Water Level route. They won't. How do I know this? I was there from 1999 - 2005. I worked extensively on the whole museum proper. One of the projects was to undertake what was necessary to rehab some of the rail and road bed, and from scratch built a switch adding a spur into the museum grounds. This was necessary due to the fact that previous operators of the museum had neglected the trackage and ROW that runs along the freight house museum and at that time, was still connected to NS. I did this with community services workers and volunteers. BTW to my knowledge, the Lakeshore people also own this right of way.
We painted the GG1 into it's PC scheme because it was quick and easy, and yes the GG1 is there because 2 were purchased, and one was traded for the Mohawk. The distinction that the 4882 has, is it was the last running GG it was used to pushed a group of GG1s onto the scrap line when they were taken out of service. The E8 (4085) when I arrived there was a rust bucket and it still had it's NJ Transit coloring and a pink primer covering part of it. I utilized those Community services workers that had experience in body work to make the necessary cosmetic repairs installed all the glass (I was surprised to find the glass for the number boards haphazardly placed against a wall in the freight house) and painted to its former NYC glory. This locomotive was the lead that the pulled the final sections of the 20th Century Limited into Chicago.
The museum had a lot that needed done and there was never enough time, volunteers, and most of all money. While I was there the mayor at that time was a conservative that kept stealing from peter, the museums and other established venues in the city, to pay paul, just so he could utilize it to build a skating rink that no body uses, and to say he was "fiscally" responsible. He was responsible for my losing my position at the museum in part.
As to the 3001, here's what I recollect. During my tenure at the museum, there was at least 2 attempts to convince the museum to allow the Mohawk to be restored to running condition, and both of those proposals consisted of 3001 be taken off site, restored, and used for a period of time then returned. At that time, 2003/2004, I did my home work, because every time one of these pipe dreamers came out of the wood work, they'd bandy about how they have the money to spend on the locomotive to get it up and running, but it needed to go elsewhere to have it done. Good luck getting it back when they were done wearing it out again.
In 2011, when a group approached the museum and the city to restore the locomotive again, I reached out to the mayor and asked that they use cooler heads to address the rebuilding. I suggested they talk to three entities about what it takes to move, rebuild, and maintain a large locomotive like the 3001. Those entities were: The Union Pacific, the Fort Wayne Railroad Historical Society, owners of the 765, and of course NS. In 2003/2004 we did seriously concider the proposal before us, and here's how far we got. When we talked to NS they said in no uncertain terms, "that locomotive will never touch our rails." Would anybody like to guess why? The wheel base, it's 95 ft 11.5 in., it's a 4-8-2, meaning the drive wheels are fixed axles, meaning there's no articulation, so if the curves in the Water Level Route were still the same as they were under steam there wouldn't be a problem, but they aren't they're tighter. That's the main reason. Also, the following was critical to the 3001s rebuilding: a.) to have ALL of its stay bolts replaced. b.) the entire boiler's super heater tubes and associated tubing needed to be replaced. c.) The tender for this locomotive has been drastically altered and the amount of coal it can carry is much smaller. d.) The stoker, conveyer tube and associated needed to be replaced/rebuilt. e.) If I remember right, the smoke box needs major repair, it was rotted through. f.) Due to the locomotive sitting, the valves and pistons will need major servicing. g.) One thing almost nobody knows about is that the wheels of a steam locomotive have steel tires, and these have to be a certain thickness to pass an inspection. Who’s making 72 inch steel tires these days?(thus the need to contact the UP). Also, there is Federal Railway Association certification involved with getting a steam locomotive back on the tracks. Inspections are needed and certain aspects of the locomotive have to pass those inspections. An example of a possible problem arising is the thickness of the steel in the crown sheet, that is a part of the roof in the fire box (the failure of this is catastrophic and will kill). I believe this flaw was discovered during an inspection on Nickel Plate 765, owned by the Fort Wayne Railroad Historical Society, adding several thousand dollars to the cost of rebuilding 765 the last time it was done, which I think was around 2004. Also correct me if I'm wrong but if this locomotive is to pull passenger cars does it not have to be certified by Amtrak as well? What about modern signaling equipment and modern hook ups for the required diesel locomotive etc.?
In 2003/2004, I also looked up what it cost the NYC to build the L3 in 1940. If my memory serves me correctly, it was in the area of $450,000 1940 dollars. So in 2003/2004 dollars that equates to about $6,000,000 so taking into account that a lot of the locomotive is there maybe $4 mil. is a more representive price for restoration. I think $2.5 mil. is low balling and it certainly wouldn't allow for the craning, and trucking the locomotive out of the museum proper.
Having said all of that. The "missing" parts were in the two exMILW reefers that are somewhere on the lot, they used to be parked next to the 3001. If there are items on display in the museum, that tells me that someone after I left, has gone through those cars and pulled those items out. The same with the "skin" that is supposed to be over the boiler, it also was stored in one of the cars on site. As for the bell it should be in the museum if it's not then somebody better be asking where it is.
So, due to the circumstances that required me to leave the museum, I have not been there, nor do I desire to go there. In fact, I refuse to do any business within the city of Elkhart if I can help it. Those that are running the museum apparently have no desire to further anything along unless it's done by volunteers. Which are hard to come by to be sure. I read this whole thread and other than some who have visited, I have not read of any one person saying they approached the Lakeshore people about getting some kind of fund drive started. I haven't read that anyone is volunteering there. What I do read here is the same thing I dealt with at the museum when I was there, and continue to observe all these years afterward, it's all talk and no do. You all want somebody else to restore the 3001 so you can see it go down the rails. I was one of those people that did, and regardless of the blood, sweat, and tears I put into that place it wasstripped away due to politics. So good luck on your pipe dream, I'm out.
I reacted a bit too strongly to this latest post this morning. On reflection, I'm going to walk back a bit of the emotion.
Knowledge about what's required for locomotive restoration, or of its costs, is not in short supply here. I have to wonder a bit about the technical proficiency of someone who seems to think cleading is called the 'skin over the boiler', an L-3 has no lateral compensation, there is difficulty in producing (or profiling) 72" tires, that a rusted smokebox bottom makes a locomotive hopelessly expensive to restore, and what is actually required for a 49 CFR 230.17 1472-day inspection ... among other things ... but then dismisses someone who has actually successfully restored a large steam locomotive as an amateur.
I do appreciate, however, now having somewhat better knowledge about why some of the previously-incomprehensible decisions surrounding 3001 were made.
n012944 What exactly makes you so sure that people would come out and ride it? The NKP 765 group just had to cancel a main line steam trip due to low ticket sales, and that was a trip out of Chicago. If a trip that originates out of a city that has over 10 million people living its metropolitan area can't sell enough tickets to make it, why would a trip succeed out of a much smaller area? Even if you were able to make a go out of it in the begining, would it have the staying power to still draw passengers once the "newness" of riding behind a NYC steam locomotive wears off?
I have to correct the statement above. The real reason that FWRHS had low ticket sales was because the trip was announced and tickets put on sale only 30 days before the trip, per Kelly Lynch of the FWRHS.
Unless it was converted, the L3 Mohawks had 69 inch drivers, the same as the NKP Berkshires. Depending on the space between the wheels, one would think the driver fixed wheelbase of NYC 3001 would have to be close to that of NKP 765 which also has 69 inch drivers. The Berkshire, as we all know and greatly appreciate, has operated very smoothly on the Norfolk Southern mainlines in the Upper Midwest.
Unless I am missing something, which is entirely possible.
stdgauge n012944 What exactly makes you so sure that people would come out and ride it? The NKP 765 group just had to cancel a main line steam trip due to low ticket sales, and that was a trip out of Chicago. If a trip that originates out of a city that has over 10 million people living its metropolitan area can't sell enough tickets to make it, why would a trip succeed out of a much smaller area? Even if you were able to make a go out of it in the begining, would it have the staying power to still draw passengers once the "newness" of riding behind a NYC steam locomotive wears off? I have to correct the statement above. The real reason that FWRHS had low ticket sales was because the trip was announced and tickets put on sale only 30 days before the trip, per Kelly Lynch of the FWRHS.
What is there to correct? The trip was cancelled as a result of low ticket sales, regardless of when they went on sale. The Fort Wayne group obviously thought there would be enough of a demand, or they wouldn't have put it on sale. They tried to make it work, even having a billboard on I294 advertising it. In the end, the ticket sales did not meet expectations.
n012944 stdgauge n012944 What exactly makes you so sure that people would come out and ride it? The NKP 765 group just had to cancel a main line steam trip due to low ticket sales, and that was a trip out of Chicago. If a trip that originates out of a city that has over 10 million people living its metropolitan area can't sell enough tickets to make it, why would a trip succeed out of a much smaller area? Even if you were able to make a go out of it in the begining, would it have the staying power to still draw passengers once the "newness" of riding behind a NYC steam locomotive wears off? I have to correct the statement above. The real reason that FWRHS had low ticket sales was because the trip was announced and tickets put on sale only 30 days before the trip, per Kelly Lynch of the FWRHS. What is there to correct? The trip was cancelled as a result of low ticket sales, regardless of when they went on sale. The Fort Wayne group obviously thought there would be enough of a demand, or they wouldn't have put it on sale. They tried to make it work, even having a billboard on I294 advertising it. In the end, the ticket sales did not meet expectations.
And of course Kelly Lynch had extensive market research to determine the real reason for low ticket sales.
I have to say that Rick's post was most insightful. It seems to me from his post that he knows a great deal about the interworkings of the situation at the NNYC museum, and even through the political fallout he put his heart and soul into making the best of the situation. Obviously it became too much, and he refuses to return to that poisonous environment.
I would like to thank him for all the work that he did. I know how it feels to volunteer day after day on "the sinking ship", and no, it's not easy to keep going back.
However, while I do agree that the cost would be in the millions to restore #3001, I would correct some of his points.
1- The locomotive does have articulation, in the drawbar, tender trucks, pilot wheels, and trailing truck. The locomotive is every bit just as flexible as NKP 765, as the rigid wheelbases are very simlar to each other.
2-Missing boiler jacketing is no big deal. It's just sheet metal. An extra cost to fabricate? Certainly, however that cost would be small in comparison to the rest of the project.
After re-reading this thread, very few people were direspectful (if that) to the political situation that surrounds the National New York Central Museum and the 3001- ignorant, yes. But that cannot be helped, as many of us who would have the passion and drive to volunteer and start a fund drive for the 3001, live too far away to realistically do so. Many of us make our contributions to rail preservation by volunteering at our local organisations and sending donations to others when we can. (I have made a small donation or two to the National New York Central Museum, and hope to someday visit!)
We may have our pipe dream, but discusing it here is not meant to bash down upon the NNYC museum for not doing it. Some have, but that is not neccisarily the intent of the rest of us.
Respectfully,
S. Connor.
It's a foregone conclusion that returning 3001 to steam would be a very expensive proposition. Whether that can ever happen is impossible to predict with certainty. Rick has a lot of important things to add to this conversation, even if his technical knowledge of steam and steam terminology is not perfect. There is no reason that 3001 can't be restored as a highly presentable cosmetic exhibit, even if operation is impractical or too expensive, and there is no reason she can't be protected in an enclosed shelter. Her custodians of the past generation have failed to do any of that. It would be nice to think the new mayor will behave more responsibly than his predecessor. An assured future for the 3001 means a significant amount of money, whether the ultimate goal involves operation or a more modest preservation plan, and I'm not convinced the City has it or can raise it.
If this means new ownership, or even a new location, for this important historic locomotive, then so be it.
There seems to be way too much ego here, and precious little determination or commitment to do what's best for the locomotive's future survival.
Buslist And of course Kelly Lynch had extensive market research to determine the real reason for low ticket sales.
Are you saying he did, or did not? Fact is he does have data. Fact is the trips did not sell out due to the very short lead time. 30 days was not enough.
stdgauge Getting back on topic, another mainline steam locomotive back to operational status is not a good idea. Even after spending huge sums of money, you still don't have an experienced crew and a history with any of the mainline railroads, and THAT is one of the biggest obstacles that money cannot overcome. All dressed up, but nowhere to go. By some miracle, even if you have all of that in place, the railroads can change their policies on steam movements. Then what?
The T-1 Trust has recieved offers from several operations to host the 5550 when it is finished.
From their website:
The question most asked to the T1 Trust is, "Where will it run when complete?". We are pleased to announce that the Trust has received three letters of invitation to operate on various railroad lines around the country. We have received formal letters from Steamtown National Historic Site in Scranton, PA, the Steam Railroading Institute in Owosso, MI and the Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railroad in Independence, OH. All three organizations have a long track record of handling mainline steam locomotives and can easily support the T1 locomotive operation when complete.
S. Connor The T-1 Trust has recieved offers from several operations to host the 5550 when it is finished. From their website: 3-26-15 5550 Has Rails To Run On The question most asked to the T1 Trust is, "Where will it run when complete?". We are pleased to announce that the Trust has received three letters of invitation to operate on various railroad lines around the country. We have received formal letters from Steamtown National Historic Site in Scranton, PA, the Steam Railroading Institute in Owosso, MI and the Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railroad in Independence, OH. All three organizations have a long track record of handling mainline steam locomotives and can easily support the T1 locomotive operation when complete.
Do we seriously think the people that wrote those letters will still be in positions of power in 2030, when the T1 is scheduled to be complete?
BuslistDo we seriously think the people that wrote those letters will still be in positions of power in 2030, when the T1 is scheduled to be complete?
Perhaps not. Perhaps Steamtown NHS will no longer exist, or have different political priorities. Perhaps by that time EPA regulations will apply to large steam locomotives.
On the other hand, here are three examples who volunteered a place to run for the T1 'sight unseen', and why would there not be a similar number of people so inclined 15 years from now?
Reminds me of the old story of the farmer who had never seen a train. He assuredly said "she'll never start. No, she'll never start." The conductor called 'all aboard' and swung up, two blasts of the whistle, the engineer released brakes and opened her up, and away she went. The farmer, left behind, said "She'll never stop. Nope, she'll never stop..."
I am not particularly concerned with how the T1 will be maintained in service, where it can be run, or that its design and eventual construction will be done properly... all those are accounted for in the planning or design. Even if engineering sense doesn't prevail, I expect money and insurance coverage would get the job done. There seems to be some vast railfan conspiracy to make the T1 out to be a rail-wrecking hoodoo ... which may have been justified in some respects in the Forties but will not be true at all of 5550.
And, in any case, it needs to be remembered that the T1 Trust is not concerned with building the locomotive in order to run it. The idea is to replicate it as an artifact, and do the necessary engineering to confirm its performance. Any actual excursions with the thing are pure gravy.
RME And, in any case, it needs to be remembered that the T1 Trust is not concerned with building the locomotive in order to run it. The idea is to replicate it as an artifact, and do the necessary engineering to confirm its performance. Any actual excursions with the thing are pure gravy.
So how do we confirm its performance if we don't run it? Engineering calculations? Can be do without casting a single piece of metal.
Buslist Do we seriously think the people that wrote those letters will still be in positions of power in 2030, when the T1 is scheduled to be complete?
With that logic why bother with the restoration of any other locomotive? Why bother with C&O 2716, or the Dixie #576, since they might not have rails or money to run on 'x' years in the future?
The world is always changing and you have to take that into account, but to not try at all is the biggest failure possible. I would rather see the the T1 Trust crash and burn and people learn from what was accomplished and built than to have it be another "Could've-Would've-Should've". Already they have resurected the literally extinct process of casting alloyed Box-pok driving wheels. That stands for something, even if the locomotive is never finished.
As the above user mentioned, the T-1 trust is there to build and confirm. They are not obligated to turn it into a regulary operating excursion locomotive.
But this is really off topic. Back to the 3001.
As to the canceled NKP 765 steam trip from Chicago, there could be many factors that led to its failure. 30 days' lead time is only one possibility. If the person organizing thought that alone was why, any future endeavors will probably also fail. Marketing is complex; a "build it and they will come" philosophy is true only in sappy movies.
EITHER YOU BELIEVE OR YOU DON'T
At this point in the discussion one either gets "on board" the train or doesn't. Steam as a practical form of railroad motive power belongs in the past. However, when it comes to people pleasing enthusiasm! you cannot find a modern machine with more attraction than the beloved locomotive of railroad history the steam locomotive. Norfolk & Western and Union Pacific are not rebuilding steam for no reason. Neither do Cumbries & Toltec, Virginia & Truckee, and Durango & Silverton. Western Maryland Scenic and the 2-6-6-2 restoration are other examples of modern enthusiasm for railroad steam power.
The great ocean liners like the QUEEN MARY and UNITED STATES and ill fated TITANIC also have this attraction, as do the mighty 16" gun battleships MISSOURI, WISCONSON, IOWA, and NEW JERSEY. Three masted sailing ships gathered some of the same charisma and magic, such as the 44 gun USS CONSTITUTION, the brand new French man o' war HERMONIE that just made its first Atlantic crossing this summer. Painfully build from scratch by the French people and sailed in Revolutionary War Splendor to our enthusiastic nation. And don't forget the CHARLES W MORGAN the last American whaling ship - Moby Dick chasin whaling ship. Burried in sand for the last 100 years and removed dry docked inspected then restored and fitted with new sails and sailed again this last summer - into the deep Atlantic Ocean! This ship was built in 1845! Check it out U-Tube where the might sperm whales came and played about the ship that 100 years ago harpooned their grandfathers to their death.
Further, lets not forget the bi-wing propellor airplanes of 1904 and the WWII bombers and fighters that draw the public commitment - enough so that they are dragging them up off the bottom of Lake Michigan to Chicago just to restore them to fly again.
Consider also the old mahogany speed boats, CHRIS CRAFT, HACKER, and CENTURY glistening in nickel plate and varnished wood. Have these not disapeared and could not each be built new in several weeks - yet people will spend thousands of hours to make the originals run again.
So why not railroad steam power?
I can remember the many days I spent driving to Lansing Michigan on Saturday mornings just to work on the CHEASAPEAKE & OHIO "Berkshire" 1225. It was a joy to climb over its cold body wrenching on this or assembling that - and I remember installing the large 3/4" studs to hold the turbo generator platform on the boiler. The studs were new made with a taper thread into the boiler shell and staight thread for the nuts that held the cast steel platform - took about three hours to install this.
Day after day we worked with the joy of railroading in our hearts glad to spend our leisure hours at the work. Ten years went by - then to see the engine under steam and watch it move so effortlessly - to see it leap to life and run with uncanny grace!
To see my son yet unborn and then 16 years old watching PERE MARQUETTE 1225 cross a Michigan cornfield under its own power and see that child now a man behold the heritage of his nation - America - and of railroading of the past.
Well I had to stop a moment and look again - to see that locomotive which was so long stationary - that it had indeed finally come to fantastic life and performance - well it was something to behold - a machine so practical and beautiful - and so long hoped for.
And NEW YORK CENTRAL "Mohawk" 3001 is no different than this! It will run just as sure as the sun will come up tomorrow morning. That turbo generator will turn on, the injectors will work, the boiler pressure gauges will come up to pressure and show a reading, that throttle will open, the those pistons will move as if by magic - as will the stoker engine and tender also hold coal and water - and some man among you or yet unborn will take the right hand seat and reach for that quadrant and move her effortlessly again onto the main line where Century's raced!
You either get on board or you don't - PERE MARQUETTE 1225 has run again and NYC 3001 will run again also - all it takes is WORK! and -
AT THIS POINT YOU EITHER BELIEVE OR YOUR DON'T!
Love your passion Doctor D!
And as the young Natalie Wood said in the classic film "Miracle On 34th Street"...
"I believe. I believe. It's silly, but I believe..."
And we know what happens next!
The intern may be passionate about restoring steam locomotives, but his passion seems to stop at his checkbook. If you actually want to see a steam locomotive restored, it takes a bit more effort than just being a cheerleader.
CSSHEGEWISCHThe intern may be passionate about restoring steam locomotives, but his passion seems to stop at his checkbook.
How would you possibly know?
Or are you saying that he should personally bankroll a huge chunk of the putative 3001 restoration cost, or else shut up about it? That would seem to be more than a little ridiculous.
RME CSSHEGEWISCH The intern may be passionate about restoring steam locomotives, but his passion seems to stop at his checkbook. How would you possibly know? Or are you saying that he should personally bankroll a huge chunk of the putative 3001 restoration cost, or else shut up about it? That would seem to be more than a little ridiculous.
CSSHEGEWISCH The intern may be passionate about restoring steam locomotives, but his passion seems to stop at his checkbook.
It's just that the intern pontificates so much about this, that and the other steam locomotive that should be restored to no less than operating condition that makes it hard for me to believe that he's actually doing anything about any of them. His insistence on complete historical accuracy in the restoration of the "Flying Yankee" to operating condition (he insisted that the organization was wrong in installing a 6-567 engine instead of restoring a 201-A) suggests that he has a lot to say without actually doing anything.
During a recent visit to Elkhart, Indiana, it seems some more work is beginning done on NYC 3001 - the circular sheet metal guard for the safety valves atop the boiler is now partially removed or installed, and the turret cover in front of the cab on the left side has its upper panel opened up. It also seems the smoke box throttle opening is now covered. Nice to see some work on the locomotive.
It occured to me in the re-reading of some of this thread that the City of Elkhart, Mayor Dick Moore had one main objection to the restoration of NYC 3001 - his main objection to the restoration and operation of the locomotive was that if it was moved from the city location of its display to a place of restoration - that there would be a revenue loss to the city of ticket sales by visitors to the city owned National New York Central Museum. That the city income loss would be substancial.
Other than this revenue line item, I am not sure he really cared how long the locomotive was away from town for a return to operational condition. I believe a bid was submitted by the Milwaukee 261 restoration group.
It occured to me that if The New York Central Railroad Museum and the Lakeshore Railroad Historical Foundation were to approach The Museum Of Transportation in St. Louis, Missouri about the loan of the one other remaining New York Central 4-8-2 Mohawk NYC 2933 and if this engine were brought to display in Elkhart, the two engines together, well the NYC 3001 could be removed and restored off site by either the Lakeshore Railroad Historical Foundation or one of the several restoration groups that have offered this service to the city.
Further, if this were to happen, the NYC 3001 could be used to pull excursions in both Elkhart and at St Louis for the benefit of both museums in consideration for the original loan of NYC 2933 to Elkhart.
It could also be a likely option that the second NYC engine could be restored by the group capable of performing the first restoration.
Having the two engines on location in one place would also allow extensive reference of the one locomotive to the other for historic restoration purposes. Both NYC 3001 and NYC 2933 are almost identical 4-8-2 locomotives and were used thru Elkhart, Indiana on the Chicago - New York mainline.
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The St. Louis Museum Of Transportation has performed a similar locomotive loan of Norfolk & Western 2156 Y-6 to The Virginia Museum Of Transportation for a period of 5 years.
Just some thoughts here -
Well it be worth a try.
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