Cheeseheads have no sense of humor.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
schlimm Cheeseheads have no sense of humor.
Having been born in Chicago, I can see where a person whose Wisconsin experience is limited to the Mars Cheese Castle on I-94 reaches such a conclusion
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
Sounds like you have spent some time behind The Cheddar Curtain!
It is sort of like The Iron Curtain, but instead of pledging loyalty to the Politburo in Moscow, you have to root for the Packers, gosh darnit doncha know.
kgbw49 Sounds like you have spent some time behind The Cheddar Curtain! It is sort of like The Iron Curtain, but instead of pledging loyalty to the Politburo in Moscow, you have to root for the Packers, gosh darnit doncha know.
Bear down, Chicago Bears!
Paul Milenkovic schlimm Cheeseheads have no sense of humor. Having been born in Chicago, I can see where a person whose Wisconsin experience is limited to the Mars Cheese Castle on I-94 reaches such a conclusion
I probably know Wisconsin better than you, since you are in MADison, which is not part of the Dairy State, as any real Wisconsonian would tell you.
schlimm Paul Milenkovic schlimm Cheeseheads have no sense of humor. Having been born in Chicago, I can see where a person whose Wisconsin experience is limited to the Mars Cheese Castle on I-94 reaches such a conclusion I probably know Wisconsin better than you, since you are in MADison, which is not part of the Dairy State, as any real Wisconsonian would tell you.
I suppose I know Illinois, or at least Cook County, as well as anyone given that my parents migrated to Door County, which everyone knows is part of Greater Chicago
I think of myself as maintaining "deep cover" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Chapman.
I haven't drawn too much attention to myself for not hating the Bears, but I compensate for this by being vocal about the Vikings . . .
As to Door County, my wife was born in Evanston, and lived there until her father was transferred to Memphis (while she was in boarding school in Beaver Dam). One September, just before the vernal equinox, the family took a vacation near Ephraim. Going home, they raced an incoming storm, and for some time she thought the storm was the equinox, for people spoke of the coming equinox! In time, she learned better.
Is this thread hijacked?
Johnny
DeggestyIs this thread hijacked?
Maybe a bit, not that it matters. It stopped acomplishing anything a while back now.
Actually the New york Central management sold the 3001 to the Texas & Pacific RR who donated it as one of their 4-8-2s to the Texas State Fair in Dallas, in place of a 2-10-4 that was so badly vandalized that it had to be scrapped. Some years later Elkhart acquired it in a deal struck with Dallas for the swap of (of all things) a Pennsylvania GG-1 electric. Somehow the 2933 managed to escape scrapping and was given to the Museum of Transportation near St Louis. This and the 999 4-4-0 were the only steamers that the NYC itself saved.
The T&P Mountains were nice looking machines, but other than the wheel arrangement bore very little resemblance to an L3. I am glad 3001 is back in "Central" territory - while difficult, it may have a better chance of running some day than if it was down in Frisco, TX.
tcrail,
For what its worth, The City of Elkhart, Indiana has a lease on the NYC 3001 they do not own it in spite of what Mayor Dick Moore has brow beat everyone into accepting.
Municpal Governments really have to stretch to understand what a steam locomotive like this really is. Most often they see them as some kind of scenic attraction until they get expensive to maintain. Then they want them off the property at all costs. Scrapping is none to good for civic leaders when they find a steamer to be just a problem and "in the way."
I think Elkhart has kind of adopted NYC 3001 as "a pet house dog." That makes the living room look cozy on rainy nights. Hopefully they will come to a better historic sence of what they have leased and is resting on their municipal property.
Doc
Maybe I have misunderstood. I thought the City of Elkhart (or its Parks Dept.) owned it and the Museum leased it for an extended period. If the arrangement is different, please clarify.
Tom
Steam locomotive NYC 3001 is owned by Lakeshore Railroad Historical Foundation who owns all the rolling stock at the The National New York Central Museum. The City of Elkhart only owns the property and building at the Elkhart museum site.
I do not know who are the current officers of the Lakeshore Railroad Historical Foundation but the City has leased the engine from the foundation for $1, - I also do not know what are the exact terms of this lease.
The City of Elkhart purchased the land and former restaurant which are now the museum site from Robert Spaugh, but they only got a lease on the railroad equipment.
The restoration group that did work on the engine for a while were driven off by Mayor Dick Moore who stopped the restoration project in some form of civic fight with the group. Mayor Moore removed the former museum director Mark Frazier. Ron Troyer who held some position as a director of the museum did an about face walked out of the museum also in some type of a political move. He then ran for and was elected to the Elkhart City Council. Ron Troyer who was once so involved in the Museum and restoration project says "I am totally removed from the whole museum and it's a shame what happened there." Mayor Moore then set up Robin Hume from Elkhart Parks and Recreation Department as museum director.
We are all hoping a new change in Elkhart City Mayor will result in a more historically oriented direction for the museum and the locomotive. History really demands this and it will only be to Elkhart's disgrace if the engine continues to deteoriate and the opportunity to preserve it falls on deaf and dumb civic ears.
Mayor Moore billed Elkhart as the "City with a Heart." Unfortunately this uneducated mayor was apparently not able to tell the difference between "hart" and "heart." About the only heart the city has had for NYC 3001 has been the fiberglass one with antlers painted orange and located in the center of town. Certainly no HEART to really preserve NYC 3001 nor to the desire of the people of our great nation to so see OUR steam locomotive and OUR steam railroad heritage developed to its full potential - or for full potential for the community!
Nor has Mayor Moore any concern for Bob Spaugh who recently died and the many others who were working so hard on the RETURN NYC 3001 TO STEAM restoration project.
The engine shows evidence of being stopped in the midst of a preservation effort. Early pictures of it in Elkhart show a historically correct fully jacketed boiler with engine feed water injectors and feed water piping and entire throttle linkage in place. Basically the whole boiler intact. They also show the sand dome and sanding valves as well as the sheet metal encased boiler appliance turret (located in front of the engine cab) intact and in place. These boiler features and coverings and appliances have been removed. I assume to paint and protect the boiler.
Discussion with the museum staff says they never existed but the photos tell otherwise. The engine bell, whistle and other parts that were at one time on the engine, were involved in an ownership squable, but it is uncertain what has happened to this equipment.
Photos and observation today show NYC 3001 looks stripped and has so been for the last several years - which is a shame because when you take this stuff off a locomotive and don't put it back on - the knowledge of how it goes together is lost - and the pile of parts get towards the junk pile - or into someone's private collection.
Except for local Elkart civic perception the whole Museum and its direction appears - to the knowing historian or railfan - as a bit of joke. But I believe that's about all that Mayor Moore wanted out of the whole thing - he wasn't the kind of guy who could tell anything about the engine except maybe that the headlight was ON or OFF - or that maybe it had left town pulling the last train to YUMA at 3:10 - and wasn't around to be a "pain in the ass" anymore.
Check the earlier pages in January of this post for the full details!
Thanks (I think).
We toured the museum during the LOTS convention in South Bend, July 2008, and thought 3001 looked nice at that time. Also, I have the Lionel version (numbered 3000) produced in 1990. I hope they will at least preserve her cosmetically.
I could possibly be taking a trip to Elkhardt come the 1st or 2nd month of the new year. If I go, I'll be sure to come back with lost of pictures and some truth on 3001, what condidtion she's actually in, ect. (And compare her to her sister 2933 at my local museum)
For now, 3001 is nowhere near the road to restoration. And it'll take one hell of a group to get her to the point where restoration can begin. I find this akin to when SLSF 1522 was restored by the SLSTA in the '80s. I am friends with many of her excursion and restoration crew members, and you wouldn't believe how many hoops they had to jump through just to prove themselves capable of restoring a loco; this was before they even started a study to pick their engine.
S. Connor,
I will say that you are correct about a group capable of steam restoration - its not "rocket science" but it takes commitment planning and a fortitude and long term follow thru. As I said I was involved in restoration of Pere Marquette Project 1225 in the 1970s which was done by the students at Michigan State University. We were young and knew how to resource and the restoration was easily accomplished given time and patience.
The Lakeshore Railroad Historical foundation/ New York Central Railroad Museum group which was attempting to restore NYC 3001 through the City of Elkhart was on their way - beginning the project in the 2000 - 2006 time period.
The Lansing, Michigan PM 1225 project had no better facility or crew than this. What we did have was the approval and help of the Michigan State University Administration which supported our efforts. Conversely the Mayor of Elkhart Indiana, Dick Moore apparently provided none of this. After giving much publicized verbal support he eventually destroyed the morale of the group and disbanded the museum/foundation working on the project. The museum and community appear to have been "burned" by this civic fight and mayoral takeover. There was a bitter changing of the guard at the NYC museum staff that left Robert Spraugh and other foundation members taking what they felt belonged to them and vacating the premises.
IT MUST BE REMEMBERED that Robert Spaugh had purchased the museum property established a theme restaurant there followed by the entire museum structure and collected exhibits. He set this all up as the Lakeshore Railroad Historical Foundation. The City of Elkhart came in good faith "asking to support what he was doing." After a period of years and a different mayor, the city pulled a hostile takeover of all the original foundation/city museum structure and what it was trying to accomplish in the operation of NYC 3001.
IT MUST BE REMEMBERED that Robert Spaugh is the one who brought NYC 3001 4-8-2 Mohawk to Elkhart - on his own - as well as all the great NYC passenger equipment - streamline "lightening stripe" passenger equipment and matching GM "E" unit diesel engine - which in its own right should be restored. And yes an original 1939's NYC freight caboose - and assorted other RR equipment, and set up the whole rail collection on his property.
In would appear that Robert in an effort to help preserve his collection at the coming of his old age negotiated with the City of Elkhart to insure the survival of the museum and the collection. Robert sold the musem and leased the railroad equipment to Elkhart and found that like many other things "security in old age" can be elusive.
Make no mistake here - Bob really accomplished something significant for all of us - Because there now remains ONE, yes ONE New York Central passenger steam locomotive from the great age of steam. Further - it is the last of its kind - after so many engines and so much American railroad history - after so many years of the New York Central Railroad providing the major transportation for our nation. Yes ONE - only ONE passenger engine survives - AND it's not in some far off city museum - but HERE right next to the tracks - the "four track mainline" - great wide way - on which it ran - pulling such famous name trains - filled with presidents, move stars - the rich the famous along with everybody else.
Yes, with headlight on - and green classification lamps lit - (to mark the second section train to follow) in the rail yard in Elkhart, Indiana - there remains - facing east - "AS IF to pull to the front of a train and run to New York - there remains TODAY one engine.
In the bosom of the heart of the railroad empire for which it ran. For all - for everyone to see - YES as if it just left Chicago's La Salle Street terminal and ran the 100 miles east - and paused at Elkhart - across all these years looking east - waiting for the throttle to be pulled again - brakes released - stoker fired - to continue ON the run to Toledo, and Cleveland, and Buffalo, and Rochester, and Syracuse and Albany. To arrive tomorrow morining at NYC Grand Central Station.
Yes Robert Spaugh gave US this understanding and this memory - and this engine NYC 3001 and its history to Elkhart Indiana which if anyone should appreciate these things.
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Yes I did mechanically look over NYC 3001 last month and - pertinent to our earlier discussion a year ago, the Valve Pilot Indicator which all NYC passenger locomotives had - is missing the mounting bracket located just above the drive wheels - right side - a huge steel casting holding the air brake resevoir tank to the boiler - an extension of this has been cut off with an acetylene torch. And inside the locomotive a the engineer controls, the "recording console with indicators" also for this device is also missing.
THE CAB - itself is mostly stripped and has only the firebox doors - the brake stands, the throttle quadrant, the power reverse wheel and the engineman seats remain. Gone are all the steam and air gauges, the water glass and manual water level test drain - ie the manual water valves are gone also - as is the cab interior and instrument lighting. On the Firemans side of the locomotive cab - the stoker jet controls remain in place but all the other fireman controls, and pyrometer and water gauge are missing.
THE ENGINE TURRET - which is a sheet hooded covering ahead of the cab - which housed the steam supply manifiold - which was located in front of the cab - with all the valves and controls are gone. The fireman's front window frame has been pulled loose into the cab but remains there - both cab side windows are functional.
THE TENDER - yes the famous automatic "water scoop" and its mechanism are missing from underneath the tender - but the large cast steel frame that mounted it is still there on the bottom of the tender. The automatic train control relay box - and the coal pusher are missing from the top of the tender - so is the rear engine headlight and left rear tender steps. Inside however - the coal bunker remains intact as well as the stoker auger screw in its trough.
THE TENDER TOP - whole top of the tender - of the coal bunker has been cut off level - about a foot of its height - and a really tacky "fake oil bunker" has been tack welded on the top. The coal bunker gates and chains in the cab companionway are gone and replaced with some sheet metal doors with large holes cut in them with an acetylene torch - the holes are a sort of weird vandalism. ALSO - the stoker engine access hatch on the right side of the tender appears welded up - uncertain if the stoker engine is still inside - the coal conveyor intermediate tube and its inner worm are gone - as well are the stoker elevator and steam distribution table into the firebox - both removed by TEXAS AND PACIFIC.
THE FIREBOX - remains complete within the boiler - the ash pan remains also and has its long traditional outer air intakes - formed on the ash pan along side of the firebox - this air intake has been cut off and welded shut using small steel plates - for a simulated TEXAS PACIFIC RR oil fired firebox design. The firebox grates and mechanism are missing - but the grate shaker toggles are on the floor of the cab if I remember right.
LOCOMOTIVE FRAME - DRIVERS - RODS - CYLINDERS and running gear are all entirely intact and unchanged as are both cross compound air pumps - the Nathan locomotive lubricator - electrical turbo generator - brake air reservoir tanks and both front and rear locomotive trucks are unchanged - no steam booster engine was used on the rear truck of NYC 3001 - the feed water pump and Worthington feed water heater remain in place - and it was is nice to see that none of this high speed running gear has been touched.
BOILER TOP - missing are the safety valves - sand dome remains but sander valves are partially missing - the sheet metal cover for the steam dome is missing - the external throttle linkage and its pivot gone - As are the locomotive boiler sheet metal jacketing and bands missing and the "engine turret" sheet metal hood for the right side of the locomotive - the left side remains partially pulled foreward.
THE WHISTLE which is purportedly in the hands of the foundation member that negotiated the moving of the engine from Texas. The original headlight and nameboard - if I remember - were at some point in Robert Spaugh's control. Unfortunately Bob died this past year. Headlight and name board are perportedly from another engine. No engine bell and what happened to it I have not heard.
Some of NYC 3001 cab appliances and gauges are in the hands of the Elkhart Museum but the other items are not accounted for at my last inquiry with the Elkhart museum.
Yes it was nice to see the elephant ear smoke deflectors added - they hide the stripped boiler - and it would be nice if the staff that added them were as concerned about the other "missing in action" parts. Throttle linkage should be replaced along with the engine turret there is no reason to leave these things off unless restoration is in process. If the right side turret hood is missing this should be fabricated and replaced and can't be more difficult than the elephant ear smoke deflectors.
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It must be remembered that many engines - C&O 614 for example - were in worse condition have been restored - but each item that goes astray is one more headache to be replaced. And misguided individuals that take this stuff home should bring it back - but scrappers that steal it should be shot. In my humble opinion.
After going over the intern's laundry list, it occurred to me that many of the missing parts are no longer manufactured, meaning that a replacement would be a custom job that's going to be expensive. Many of the cab fittings could be substituted with something that currently exists, analog gauges haven't changed that much. I wonder about the condition of the wheel bearings, that could be a problem.
I've also observed that he has danced around the issue of where the money is going to come from. It's going to take a lot of individual donors to come up with enough money just to get a foot in the front door, much less actually get anything accomplished.
CSSHEGEWISCH,
You are right about the assorted analog gauges as most of this missing engine stuff can be re created as the British are doing with their new rebuild engines - the thing is the New York Central had a "company style" in equiping all their engines with certain standard features. It would be a shame to loose this. It would be nice to know if some inventory exists of these removed NYC 3001 parts or if they are just flat out lost or stolen. The existance of the other remaining 4-8-2 Mohawk NYC 2933 also is a model to guide to any rebuilding. Most engines that were roller bearing equipped seem to have bearings that survived long term storage - such as the long 15-20 year outside wait C&O 614 had in Russell Kentucky and still has at the Greenbrier hotel. Obviously the equipment removed by TEXAS AND PACIFIC is not going to be around.
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TEXAS AND PACIFIC removed items would be -
Tender coal pusher and stoker intermediate conveyor and elevator. Tender water scoop and upper one foot of structure cut off from the tender coal bunker.
Engine "firebox grates" and "grate shakers" along with the sheet metal ashpan sides which were cut off. "Valve Pilot Indicator" mechanism and its bracket which was similarly cut off.
New York Central ancient General Railway Signals Co. "automatic train control equipment" which included a track sensor called a "receiver," located on the tender behind the front truck. A relay box or "mechanism" located on the tender tank top behind the coal bunker and near the coal pusher. Also a control box in the cab with a "forstaller" lever and an "actuator" control which was attached to the engine brake stand. The "actuator" looked to still be in the cab today. Equipment which prevented the locomotive engineer from passing certain points on the railroad without acknowledging he was in control of the train. 1930's era safety equipment similar to what the Federal Government is requiring for modern railroads today.
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Elkhart Indiana removed items...
All cab appliances - all boiler top appliances - entire throttle mechanism - low water alarm - sander valves - safety valves - whistle - bell - turret and all appliances. Boiler sheet metal jacketing.
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One really hopeful additions to NYC 3001 is an entire spare locomotive tender. Yes the engine tender from 4-8-2 Mohawk NYC 3042 has survived and is in Elkhart. It is located just behind NYC 3001 on the storage track so that there are two almost duplicate tenders. NYC 3042 has the entire coal bunker that was cut off from NYC 3001 so a fairly elaborate weld job could restore the tender of NYC 3001. Also many of the missing tender artifacts - rear engine headlight - tender rear steps - companion way gates etc can be removed from the second tender.
Unfortunately just swapping tenders seems unlikely as the drawbar attachment for the NYC 3042 tender has been cut and welded with a replacement freight car coupler making it in effect a "water car" with a coupler at each end. This spare tender also has none of the remaining missing stoker auger and stoker engine parts still remaining on the NYC 3001 tender.
Obviously NYC 3001 is entirely restorable with a resonable effort.
Glad you enjoyed the text!
Great post.
Great stuff, doc. But the stats tell why the Niagara was the premier NYC locomotive. If you've seen one blow by, you'll understand.
Additional research into the NYC 3001 situation.
The owners of the locomotive Lake shore Railroad Historical Foundation regularly meet on site at the National New York Central Museum. Membership seems a pretty priviledged honor and apparently they charge "dues" of the Foundation members.
Some of the missing NYC 3001 equipment is in fact in possession of the museum but not on the locomotive. The original locomotive bell and the engine gauges - pyrometer - boiler pressure - stoker distribution steam gauge - stoker engine pressure gauge and steam heat gauge to the train are on display in the museum.
The original whistle has been taken as has the original headlight which was in the office and possession of the former museum director and left with him.
A more careful examination of the cab and boiler clearly shows that at one time - i'm guessing circa 2006 - a mechanical overhaul of NYC 3001 was in process. The smoke box cover accessing the multiple valve throttle has been removed and not replaced - a few nuts and a temporary cover are over this gaping hole in the top smokebox. The boiler flues have all been removed. Several staybolt caps are missing on the firebox. All of the sander valves and piping are removed and the sandbox has been lifted off and then returned to the boiler top without being bolted down.
Various amounts of piping and their brackets have been removed and nuts partially screwed onto the protruding threads.
The engine turret has been unbolted and pulled forward on the left side - the right side cover and its framing are removed entirely. The left forward cab window and its framing assembly have been removed from the cab and left lying around in the locomotive cab. The cab window on the right side - is still installed but left wide open to the rain and elements.
Clearly, it looks as if a crew of mechanics had gone to work and partially disassembled everything in the cab and on the boiler top. In fact it's just as if this crew had been hard at work - and then suddenly told to stop, and so they just quit - dropping everything in place.
But this is NYC 3001 - the last New York Central passenger engine - and any steam locomotive so prepared for display - should have none of this obvious abandon maintaince activity. If and when it was disassembled it should have been immediately then re-assembled and prepared for display purposes.
At the Museum Of Transport in St. Louis, MO for example - NYC 2933 went through a complete cosmetic overhaul - and you didn't see the museum staff just "knock off" work half way thru the project - for 10 years - and then abandon half the parts!
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At this time I also examined the NYC 3001 locomotive tender - and the bogus work Texas and Pacific Railroad went thru to cosmetically change the NYC 3001 tender to resemble one of their own engines.
Specifically I was looking at the damage done to the coal bunker it having the sides trimmed down about twelve inches to resemble a Texas Pacific 900 series engine. This tender sheet metal had been simply cut off along the top sides - and the "bead" forming the edge then rewelded or re-rivited to the now cut down shorter surface.
What looked in photos to be a "rolled bead edge" of the tender top was in fact a half round steel molding rivited to the edge forming decorative edgeing. To repair this new steel sides could be made and then welded back onto the tender to form the upper curved upper surface.
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Considering that the Elkhart Museum has just gone to all the trouble to add the missing "elephant ear smoke deflectors" to the front of NYC 3001 - it seems odd not to have tackled the much more important work of repairing the tender and replacing the locomotive boiler turret and boiler top parts.
Why leave a priceless engine like NYC 3001 standing "agape" with its smoke box open the elements and other important sheet metal removed? For cryin out loud anyway - this a museum isn't it!
Lack of funds may have a lot to do with this situation. Restoring a deteriorating steam locomotive is not the only responsibility that the Museum has.
The only Doctor D with which I'm familiar in a railroad context is Rudolf Diesel.
I think what Dr D says is true. Also there is some personal animosity with that museum
CSSHEGEWISCHThe only Doctor D with which I'm familiar in a railroad context is Rudolf Diesel.
Pretty sure not. I believe Diesel's degree was Dipl.-Ing. (which can be borne out by his title on the heat-engine patent itself) which really corresponds to masters level, not doctoral. I would not be surprised to find that DPM did his research before using "Mister D's Machine".
Continuing on NYC 3001 -
My reaction to the New York Central Railroad Museum was unique. That area of Indiana is striking in its difference from major urban museum settings. Odd in some ways are the invitation of the hostess in the office that took my $5 entrance fee and invited me to enjoy the exhibits and go into any of the rail equipment on display.
Yes, where can you have sole and private access to such? I explored the 1904 wooden NYC caboose - locked only with a cupboard hook. Climbed the cupola examined it to the full of my curiosity. The Pennsylvania GG1 - open to the homeless or any inquisitor - want to explore a GG1 help yourself. Wander thorugh stainless steel passenger cars unobserved. And of course the NYC 3001 - climb the engine for a boiler front photo - sure - into the cab - sure - stick your head behind the crosshead or between the drivers - sure. Examine the massive cast steel engine frame up close - sure. And yes climb under the tender and stand up up into the water scoop intake just to get and inside look - sure. Onto the tender holding those massive lathe turned handrail stanchions - onto the tank top and open the water hatch - climb down into the tank itself. And yes, I did enjoy the engineers seat elbow out the window looking down today the former NYC mainline - pulled the throttle - spun the power reverse handle - train and engine brakes at my left hand.
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Yes, the General Railway Signals Automatic Train Control equipment is still in the cab. Upon the brake stand is the "Actuator" and beside the engineers right leg is the "Forstaller" still in place. Missing are the "reciever" located near the rail behind the front tender truck and the "relay box" located behing the coal bunker on the tender top.
The Run Of The Twentieth Century by Edward Huntington describes the use of the equipment:
"...That something else is the unseen hand upon the throttle - the automatic electric train-stop, that is America's latest gift to the safety of railroads, the whole world over...For it is this last mechanism (upon the locomotive itself) that actually stops the engine in case the engineer ever should forget and overlook the red signal and attempt to run past it. Then and there, he loses control of his engine. Then and there, it is the unseen hand upon the throttle that asserts itself. No idle phrase, that. The electrical device, technically termed a reciever, mounted on the engine tender, and which rides so close to the edge of the rail, is in the jargon of the electrical engineer "choked" or made inoperative when signals indicate proceed, and operative when signals indicate stop. This choking efect is transmitted electro-mechanically to the electrical device mounted on the ends of the ties 70 feet from the signal. The choking is caused by the electrical device on the locomotive in the close proximity with the electrical device on the ends of the ties. When choked no inductive effect is transmitted to the device on the locomotive. However, when the device on the ends of the ties is not choked as the reciever passes over it, a sudden change in the electrical current passing through the coil on the device on the locomotive is set up and this at once applies the brakes. Stopage of the train is rendered complete immediately."
Wow - I find it hard to believe all the New York Central passenger power would be using this equipment. Two of the required devices of early train control - the "actuator" on the train engineer's brakestand and the "forstaller" located at his right leg are still in the cab of NYC 3001.
Missing also of course, are the stories of the use of this device! Of NYC steam locomotives running with throttle open and - then - the train brake suddenly being applied due to engineer error or equipment malfucntion.
Similar to the later "dead mans pedal" used on diesel electric locomotives where the engineer is required to keep his foot in place on the "go button." Or to substitue a tool box to relieve the responsibility.
Yes, I can't imagine the throttle open and train brakes suddenly coming on the speeding Twentieth Century Limited - because of some foul up in this 1930's electrical technology. Yes, there must be more to this device than a cursory description of it indicates. Missing are - all of this common knowledge to the experienced New York Central steam locomotive engineer of the time.
It would be interesting to hear if NYC 2933 surviving in St. Louis is also so equipped General Railway Signals Automatic Train Control. Of course getting access to the cab and onto the engine would be much more difficult.
Dr D, You're commentary is, as usual, spot on, full of common sense, and facts that are undeniable. Can you possibly come to the IRM and inject this knowledge and common sense to the Board of lack of direction?
locojacket -
Love to come to visit IRM - kick me a message about it!
NYC 3001 Mohawk - does the Valve Pilot Indicator exist?
Answer - yes partially
After examination of the locomotive and museum I have found most of the equipment to exist in Elkhart.
What is the Valve Pilot Indicator? - a "black box" computor device invented in circa 1940 which allows the locomotive speedometer to indicate the proper setting of the steam admission valves of the running locomotive.
The locomotive reverse/forward adjustment is used for this purpose. At speed the locomotive engineer draws back the forward/reverse mechanism - more towards a neutral position allowing the conservation of steam and increased speed of the locomotive. This adjustment was performed prior to 1941 through the "feel" which was developed by the engineer from years of service - The Valve Pilot Indicator makes this adjustment easily and with greater accuracy.
Actually the Valve Pilot Indicator is a fairly simple device consisting of (1) an accurate speedometer attached to the locomotive drive wheels, and (2) a small housing or box on the side of the engine with a rod connected to the locomotive valve gear which communicates the valve travel and transfers this information hydraulically to the (3) enhanced speedometer and computing mechanism in the engine cab.
This enhanced speedometer (3) also had a small "reel to reel" paper recording tape to indicate engineer usage - of a locomotive if it was so equiped.
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The Valve Pilot Indicator was a late steam age device - a "locomotive accessory" - and was designed and patented by Fay D.Welden of Tuckahoe, NY who was given U.S. Patent US2309684 - applied for in 1941 and granted on Feb 2, 1943 and whose manufacture was assigned to the Valve Pilot Corporation of NY.
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Most of all the New York Central steam locomotives had this equipment sometime after 1940. Service was apparently discontinued on the repair of these Valve Pilot Indicator devices on the railroad sometime in the mid 1950's and photos after this time period show it removed on some locomotives.
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NYC 3001 Mohawk in Elkhart, IN, has in place the (1) accurate locomotive speedometer attached to the right rear engine drive wheel - which includes a very small oil motor and its piping to the cab. Also - residing in the museum itself - and in perfect condition are the (3) enhanced speedometer and cam computation box with paper recorder. (It's painted grey and looks like a parking meter.)
NYC 3001 Mohawk is missing (2) the small indicator housing or box on the side of the engine with its attaching connecting rod to the locomotive valve gear and oil piping to the locomotive cab enhanced speedometer (3). As mentioned, the speedometer portion of the Valve Pilot Indicator mechanism (1) remains entirely intact.
This NYC 3001 missing part - (2) small indicator housing or box from the side of the engine - was attached to the locomotive boiler by means of a bracket to a large steel casting bolted to the boiler. This bracket was designed to hold this indicator housing or box (2) above the second drive wheel on the right side of the locomotive where it could pick up motion from the reverse mechanism.
It is unfortunate that this indicator box - (2) - is missing because it is the most identifiable part of the Valve Pilot Indicator system and is also most often seen and identified in photos of NYC locomotives.
I would guess the Texas & Pacific Railroad removed it from NYC 3001 - likely because they did not use the VPI system on the Texas & Pacific RR.
Also partially damaged on NYC 3001 is the "mounting bracket" for part (2) the indicator housing box - the "Air Brake Resevoir Tank bracket" - located on the right side of the engine - which bracket has been partially cut off with an oxy-acetylene torch. This damage which would make the replacement of - part (2) the indicator housing box - somewhat difficult.
Examination of photos of sister Mohawk NYC 2933 which survives in St. Louis, Missouri show this Valve Pilot Indicator mounting bracket to be present - unfortunately minus the (2) indicator housing box. The bracket is in place below the train Air Brake Reservoir Tank of NYC 2933 as discribed above. NYC 2900 engines likely had this added later in their service life, whereas NYC 3001 likely had the Valve Pilot Indicator system built into the locomotive at manufacture by American Locomotive Co.
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Locating a blueprint for this (2) "indicator box" or and actual "indicator box" from another locomotive would make the replacement of a reproduction system possible on NYC 3001 - a fully functional VPI system should be a possibility especially considering that the critical "design computor cam parts" still exist and are located in the still remaining engine cab speedometer (3).
The Fay D. Welden US Patent is available "on line" which includes an extensive explanation of the Valve Pilot Indicator operation - Google - "Steam Locomotive Valve Pilot Indicator.
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