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UP Streamline Steam? I had no idea...

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Posted by Overmod on Wednesday, September 11, 2013 1:01 PM

tomikawaTT
Rather reminds me of a cartoon I saw many moons ago.  Inverted bathtub shroud being lifted off, revealing a slide-valve 4-4-0 with  truncated diamond stack...

Or perhaps locomotives like some of these?

.

.

The streamlining applied to the 'real' Commodore Vanderbilt locomotive was supposed to be quite functional for improving performance.  I'm not very sure the same could be said about this slightly later version:

although, as you can see, the streamlining was perfectly effective in its intended role!

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Posted by tomikawaTT on Wednesday, September 11, 2013 1:06 AM

Rather reminds me of a cartoon I saw many moons ago.  Inverted bathtub shroud being lifted off, revealing a slide-valve 4-4-0 with  truncated diamond stack...

Of all the attempts to streamline steam locomotives, only the N&W got it right - mainly by admitting that there was a circular cross-section boiler under the fancywork.  (the Dreyfus Hudsons always reminded me of helmets on dead Roman legionaries...)

Chuck

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Posted by Schuylkill and Susquehanna on Tuesday, September 10, 2013 4:23 PM

Those slugs look too boxy for streamlined steam!  Laugh

UP should have taken lessons from the Pennsy on how to streamline a locomotive.  Of course, the Pennsy couldn't get what was under the best streamlining to work right, so perhaps a slug is better than a dud.Stick out tongue

I'd never heard of any UP streamlined locomotives.  Really neat thread!

S&S

 

Modeling the Pennsy and loving it!

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Posted by Deggesty on Tuesday, September 10, 2013 2:11 PM

When the Southern inaugurated the Tennessean, the train was powered by Alco diesels between Bristol and Memphis, and the streamstyled Pacific between Washington and Monroe, which made a round trip each day.

When it became possible to use diesel power between Washington and Monroe, the first assignment had an EMD taking the Birmingham Special one way and the Pelican the other way.

Johnny

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Posted by wjstix on Tuesday, September 10, 2013 8:49 AM

Bonaventure10

So as far as I understand it many streamliners were not built new but basically was putting a dress on a old pig?

 
Generally, no. Most streamliners of the 1930's used new lightweight cars and diesel locomotives - both new technology at the time. However, railroads at that time often only bought a few passenger diesels to serve the train it was streamlining, so would have to use steam to "pinch hit" if one of the diesels went down for repair (which was fairly common with early diesels). Some chose to streamline a few steam engines so if a diesel went down, the steam engine would blend in better with the consist than a regular black engine would.
 
A few railroads did choose to run new streamlined cars with steam engines, like the Milwaukee Road's Hiawatha (which used new 4-4-2 and later 4-6-4 streamlined engines) or New York Central's 1938 20th Century Limited or 1941 Empire State Express, which added streamlining to existing NYC Hudsons.
Stix
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Posted by NorthWest on Monday, September 9, 2013 6:12 PM

Somehow I missed this thread, probably while I was gone.

Oh, yes, the slugs. It is interesting how similar the UP engines are to the NYC Mercury locomotive.

I found a couple pictures on the internet, they aren't mine:

UP

NYC

NW

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Posted by dknelson on Monday, September 9, 2013 5:50 PM

I have read references to the UP's streamlined steam as looking like an upside down bathtub -- the old fashioned kind with claw feet that you sometimes see buried standing up in someone's yard and used as a religious shrine. 

Dave Nelson

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Posted by samfp1943 on Monday, August 19, 2013 3:06 PM

M636C

A BQ23-7 wouldn't fit under most over rail bridges in NSW.....  It is about a foot too tall.

Its axle load would be far too high for main lines in Australia.

Mind you, I thought they were cool and bought the Bachmann HO model. I had to swap out the chassis to get it to  run (my local hobby shop obliged when I pointed out the problem). I wouldn't part with it now.

The two UP streamlined steam units were impressive locomotives. They had been rebuilt with Boxpok driving wheels and roller bearing rods so they could keep to diesel schedules and were used for that purpose until the "Forty Niner" was introduced to cope with bookings for the San Franciso Exposition.

The streamlining wasn't great but didn't last long. The two locos were the best of their type, however.

Peter

Here is a link to the history of the IC RR's  Green Diamond and a couple of photos.

@ http://encycl.opentopia.com/term/Green_Diamond

Link to photo of UPRR #2906... See the marker for Train #49 :

http://streamlinermemories.info/Steam/UP2906.jpeg

Link also to the 4-8-4 # 7002 assigned also to the 49'er

http://streamlinermemories.info/Steam/up7002.jpg

And this notation from the website: @   http://streamlinermemories.info/?p=325

"...In 1937, the Union Pacific inaugurated the 49er, a five-times-a-month all-Pullman train from Chicago to Oakland to complement its five-times-a-month City of San Francisco on the same route. Except for the observation car, all the cars on the Pullman train were heavyweights. To give it a streamlined aura, it shrouded two locomotives: a 4-6-2 and a 4-8-2...."

And in 1938 UP and GE fielded a Steam -Electric Turbine

  @  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsHkGM_2FRQ

 

 


 

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Posted by Overmod on Sunday, August 18, 2013 10:59 AM

My old teachers used to say about this kind of design "There was no model".  Meaning the design looked fine in side and end elevations, but not in 3D reality.  Many buildings have this sort of problem!

Some of the design patent drawings for the top front shrouding can be seen in Kratville's book on the UP Streamliners (my copy is MIA so I can't provide the page reference.)  You would never believe such wicked streamlining would look so... dowdy... on those inverted bathtubs...  ;-}

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Posted by Firelock76 on Sunday, August 18, 2013 10:27 AM

OK, well that explains it.  As the old saying goes, "It may not makes sense to you, but it makes sense to somebody!"

It's still ugly, though.

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Posted by BaltACD on Saturday, August 17, 2013 9:00 PM

Firelock76

eagle1030

Firelock76

Man, you want ugly, Google the Illinois Central's  "Green Diamond".  Wow, it's got to be the ugliest diesel ever built.

False, GE BQ23-7

Oh yeah, I see what you mean.  That things ug-leeeeeeee.....

Doesn't even have the "so ugly it's classic"  redeeming feature of the Green Diamond.  I mean I'd buy an "O"  gauge "Green Diamond"  for the layout just for laughs, but NO WAY would I give space to a BQ23-7.

WHAT were they thinking?

The BQ23-7 was designed to provide crew space for cabooseless runs before the age of the 2 man crew.

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

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Posted by M636C on Friday, August 16, 2013 6:11 PM

A BQ23-7 wouldn't fit under most over rail bridges in NSW.....  It is about a foot too tall.

Its axle load would be far too high for main lines in Australia.

Mind you, I thought they were cool and bought the Bachmann HO model. I had to swap out the chassis to get it to  run (my local hobby shop obliged when I pointed out the problem). I wouldn't part with it now.

The two UP streamlined steam units were impressive locomotives. They had been rebuilt with Boxpok driving wheels and roller bearing rods so they could keep to diesel schedules and were used for that purpose until the "Forty Niner" was introduced to cope with bookings for the San Franciso Exposition.

The streamlining wasn't great but didn't last long. The two locos were the best of their type, however.

Peter

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Friday, August 16, 2013 6:47 AM

The BQ23-7 isn't that bad.  Compare it to Pacific National's NR class or some other Australian diesels and it looks like it would seem at home in New South Wales.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by pajrr on Friday, August 16, 2013 4:49 AM

Southern Rwy had a 4-6-2 that was streamlined. It looked like something out of a bad Japanese science fiction movie. As for diesels, I nominate the New Jersey Transit ALP45DP. It looks like the styrofoam packing was left on the top after it was taken out of the box!

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Posted by eagle1030 on Thursday, August 15, 2013 9:00 PM

Firelock76

eagle1030

Firelock76

Man, you want ugly, Google the Illinois Central's  "Green Diamond".  Wow, it's got to be the ugliest diesel ever built.

False, GE BQ23-7

Oh yeah, I see what you mean.  That things ug-leeeeeeee.....

Doesn't even have the "so ugly it's classic"  redeeming feature of the Green Diamond.  I mean I'd buy an "O"  gauge "Green Diamond"  for the layout just for laughs, but NO WAY would I give space to a BQ23-7.

WHAT were they thinking?

I'm not quite sure.  I guess that was wide-cab in its infancy.

I did manage to find an old Model Railroader magazine from around the time these things were being delivered to Seaboard.  It was mostly how to model it, but it also included information on the prototype.  The cab had 3 different levels and not 2, not 3, but 5 seats in the cab.  Some examples had a small window down at the engineer's feet for better visibility.  GE had the right idea by the looks of it, just missed on the front.  And the sides.  And the...

Do any of these still exist?  Or has CSX scrapped them?  I feel like at least one (at least the cab) should exist as a reminder to GE.

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Posted by Firelock76 on Thursday, August 15, 2013 7:15 PM

eagle1030

Firelock76

Man, you want ugly, Google the Illinois Central's  "Green Diamond".  Wow, it's got to be the ugliest diesel ever built.

False, GE BQ23-7

Oh yeah, I see what you mean.  That things ug-leeeeeeee.....

Doesn't even have the "so ugly it's classic"  redeeming feature of the Green Diamond.  I mean I'd buy an "O"  gauge "Green Diamond"  for the layout just for laughs, but NO WAY would I give space to a BQ23-7.

WHAT were they thinking?

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Posted by eagle1030 on Thursday, August 15, 2013 7:06 PM

Firelock76

Man, you want ugly, Google the Illinois Central's  "Green Diamond".  Wow, it's got to be the ugliest diesel ever built.

False, GE BQ23-7

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Posted by Firelock76 on Thursday, August 15, 2013 4:13 PM

Man, you want ugly, Google the Illinois Central's  "Green Diamond".  Wow, it's got to be the ugliest diesel ever built.

Another so ugly it's classic situation.

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Posted by West Coast S on Thursday, August 15, 2013 1:47 PM

Not as butt ugly as the steam turbine UP was testing at the time.

Dave

SP the way it was in S scale
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Posted by Bonaventure10 on Wednesday, August 14, 2013 12:57 PM

So as far as I understand it many streamliners were not built new but basically was putting a dress on a old pig?

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Posted by eagle1030 on Wednesday, August 14, 2013 6:52 AM

CSSHEGEWISCH

Another fairly wretched example of streamlined steam as protection power for diesels was CB&Q 4000, "Aeolus", aka "Big Alice the Goon".

At least it didn't blend in with dirt piles.

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Wednesday, August 14, 2013 6:45 AM

Another fairly wretched example of streamlined steam as protection power for diesels was CB&Q 4000, "Aeolus", aka "Big Alice the Goon".

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by Firelock76 on Tuesday, August 13, 2013 7:28 PM

Thanx for posting those pictures timz, that's it all right, the "Sluuuuuuuuuuuuuuug!"

Say it slow and let it roll up from the back of your throat, it's fun!

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Posted by timz on Tuesday, August 13, 2013 6:15 PM
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Posted by Firelock76 on Tuesday, August 13, 2013 5:06 PM

Some UP fans call those strealined steamers "The Slugs."

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Posted by eagle1030 on Tuesday, August 13, 2013 9:26 AM

UP built the shrouds after the M-10000 and M-10001 were built, idk if for pinch-hitting or just for continuity, but the colors were matching.  Leaf Brown and Armour Yellow with some red thrown in there.  The shrouds were applied to only 2 locomotives, a 4-6-2 and a 4-8-2.  A black and white photo of them makes them look OK, but if you find a color photo, you'll see why only two were built.  Terribly ugly, definitely the worst streamlined locomotives in the nation.  UP later removed them.  IMHO, the 7000 Mountain-class wasn't a very pretty locomotive, but the streamlining didn't help at all.

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UP Streamline Steam? I had no idea...
Posted by Bonaventure10 on Monday, August 12, 2013 10:06 PM

saw it in a book cant have had very many of these...there engines looked like the reading crusaders

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