Got to admire the pluck of the O&W with its Mountaineer! Buses had already started to erode the formally profitable Catskill Mountain summer vacation paassenger trade, and to use paint and mostly paint alone to try to make a train of wooden coaches into a streamliner (the Great Timber Fleet opposite the Central's Great Steel Fleet), well, one has to admire the Chutzpah!
Daveklepper:
I envy your experience. I was born the year the last K4s ran, through my home town, incidentally! I had to rely on my father's recollections of flying across south Jersey on the dollar excursions to the shore (also behind Reading camelbacks) and the tales told to me by old PRR men who generously tolerated a young railfan's badgering.
By the time 1361 was running, I was starting a family, living south and figured there would always be tomorrow.
As for earlier critique of Lackawanna streamlined power, I kind of like 'em! And anyone who would be so bold as to streamline a 4-4-0 has to be admired!
I guess we are fortunate no one attempted to dress up a camelback. You got to draw the line somewhere!
Did we forget O&W's treatment of its' 4-8-2 #405?
I agree the Ripley AT&SF locos were good looking, and to my taste they are better than the UP's. Even with that, I like the UP locos, but I think the D&H (and the DRG&W almost to the same extent) Challengers look better than the UP's. The DL&W unstreamlind Hudson was the best-looking Hudson in my book, with the AT&SF, Nickel Plate, and C&O very close, and then and only then the J-1 and J-3. J-2: too small a tender,
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I agree paint was important for the beauty of the PS-4, but none the less these were beutiful locomotives and generally they were kept quite clean.
If I had the choice of only one more ride behind steam for the rest of my life, and had to choose which power, I would throw looks out the window and choose the K4 - because of all the really fine trips I had riding behind them in my younger days. And if it could not be a K4 and could be an E6, I'd still be very very happy. But I rode behind an E-6 only once, and a K-4 (or double-headed K-4s) probably over 100 times.
Santa Fe's Blue Goose wasn't the best streamlining, but was far from the worst. That said, Santa Fe's later engines were beautiful without the streamlining. Why cover it up? On the other hand, some of the road's older, smaller power was........................ Well, let's just say it was an acquired taste, and some of us never acquired that taste.
So, general opinion is that the Js look good. Across the continent, what do people think about the Blue Goose?
NW
Dave K's correct when he talks about the CNJ Camelbacks being an acquired taste. Squat, chunky, no-nonsense, but pretty powerful for their size, they've got an appeal all their own, although they weren't much fun for the men that crewed them.
Still, they got the job done and lasted right to the end of steam on the CNJ. I'd love to ride behind one, but I'll just have to settle for an occasional visit to the CNJ 4-4-2 Camelback at the B&O Museum.
As far as acquired tastes are concerned, did any of us REALLY like beer the first time we tried it?
Canelbacks are an acquired taste. I doubt that you rode behind one. I did a number of times behind Jersey Central 4-6-0's. I'd gladly jump for the opportunity again. But I would never put them in the beauty level of an unstreamlined Lackawanna Hudson, a streamlined J or I-5, or a D&H Challenger.
Similarly, regular Pennsy Power is an acquired taste, including the K-4 and certainly the I-5. Most switchers are also an acquired taste --- especially with their slope-backed tenders. Then there are the the Reading and CNJ 0-4-0 Camelback switchers -- the Mantua HO model, Camelback and slope-back tender. Then tank enginers, triplexes, Garrats, all sorts of depatures from normal USA practice.
ACY All of our opinions tend to be tinged with a certain amount of prejudice rooted in our personal experiences.
All of our opinions tend to be tinged with a certain amount of prejudice rooted in our personal experiences.
Agreed. Personally, I prefer the looks of any non-streamlined steam locomotive over any streamlined one, except for the camelbacks. They were incredibly ugly.
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
And the heavyweight sleepers were painted silver. Just painted silver, no fluting.
The low point in streamlined steam? Rutland came close, but I'd give top honors to DL&W. Those wings were over the top. That's pretty strange, considering the lovely lines of that road's nonstreamlined 4-6-4's and 4-8-4's. Even their 4-6-2's were pretty, which is quite an accomplishment on an engine with a Wooten firebox.
The Milwaukee showed that even a 1911 4-60 could be streamlined (#10) or a slightly later 4-6-2 (150 series). These engines resembled 1-4 in a 3/4 roster shot but looked pretty ungainly when viewed from the side.
The Rutland's finned "Whippet" 2-8-0 was definitely the lowball in streamlined steam.
NorthWest Hi everyone, I found a picture of the Southern streamlined 4-6-2 http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=421972&nseq=57&favsearch=1
Hi everyone,
I found a picture of the Southern streamlined 4-6-2
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=421972&nseq=57&favsearch=1
Johnny
NothWest, thanks for that picture of that streamlined Ps-4, it's the first one I've seen in color. It's very Southern too, those curved steps look like they came from a plantation house!
Do the Milwaukee Road F7s and As count as bathtubs? If so, there is such a thing as a beautiful bathtub.
All of our opinions tend to be tinged with a certain amount of prejudice rooted in our personal experiences. For example, I l.like Vanderbilt tenders. About 54 years ago, I crawled all over a B&O Q-4 2-8-2 which was in storage, awaiting scrapping. Previously I had seen Q-4's in active service along with other B&O Vanderbilt-equipped power. Someone who never had that kind of experience might feel differently about those round tanks.
When it comes to "showpiece" engines (which would include streamlined power and engines with colorful paint jobs like SR's passenger power), we have the same kind of prejudices. I honestly don't know why I prefer the B&O P-7d over the NH Hudson, but I suspect it's that kind of prejudice. Not a prejudice against the NH, but a prejudice in favor of the B&O.
I expected to hear some reaction to my comment that, if paint were not a factor, the Erie K-5a was better-looking than a Southern Ps4. In fact, I was almost expecting to find a crowd with pitchforks & torches at my door. But that didn't happen. Strange.
The Dreyfuss Hudsons "feminized"? That's interesting, they remind me of the spaceships in the "Flash Gordon" and "Buck Rogers" serials from the 1930's.
The only steam streamliners I don't care for are the ones with the "upside-down bathtub" look, but I'm not alone in that. The "bathtubbers" seem to be just a quick-and-dirty job as opposed to a well thought out design.
No argument with you at all on the B&O streamline jobs or the New Havens I-5, all handsome locomotives.
Wayne
So,, the reason you don't particularly like the NH I-5 is because it is black with only restrained silver lettering and striping? I understand, but I think its overall form is so fine that it compensates for the lack of imaginative painging as best exampled by the J, the shrouded N&W Moutains, the CP examples, and your B&O example. I like the B&O also, and consider it the equal of the one Southern example which seems similar to me. I still rank the Daylight (and the streamlined N&W Mountains) and the I-5 as second only to the J.
One thing I realized is that the Century's Dryfuss Hudsons seem to be feminized. I cannot explain why, and this bothers me. I prefer my J3a's unstreamlined. The Empire State version is a bit better but only a bit.
And I have not figured out why I prefer the T to either the Loewy K-4 or hiasS-1.
That is, daveklepper mentioned colors.
You mentioned colors, and that seems to be an important element here.
If the SR Ps4 were to be painted black, and placed beside an Erie modernized K-5a (also black), I think I'd prefer the Erie engine. But paint made all the difference. As for streamlining, my personal favorite is the N&W J, which seems to place me in the majority. A close second would be N&W's streamlined Mountains, followed by B&O's P-7d. In my opinion, everything else is an also-ran. This is guaranteed to remove me from every NYC, NH, and SP fan's Christmas card list. But of course, they're entitled to their opinions too.
I KNEW there was something familiar about the Class J's nose! I just couldn't put my finger on it, shame on me, a 1911A1 owner as well. Darn.
Speaking of bullets, did you know Werner von Braun modeled the exterior of the V2 rocket on the shape of the 8mm Mauser bullet? Hey, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery as they say.
What N&W did to their heavy USRA 4-8-2s proved that 'aftermarket' shrouding could work. Like the Js, their design owed a lot to cal .45 ACP ball ammo - the stuff used in a Model 1911. 30/06 ammo was WAY too pointy!
For me, the main spotting feature on the 4-8-2 was its sidearm - the fully shrouded Worthington BL feedwater heater on the fireman's side. Looked like the holster for that Model 1911...
Chuck (sometimes target shooter)
The only "Big Banana" that I ever ran into was a 727 for Hughes Air West.
A C&O "Yellow Belly" or "Big Banana" , if you will, is a lot more impressive in person than it is in any photograph. There's one at the B&O Museum in Baltimore, which is well worth a visit if you're in the area.
No Disney stole the idea from the C&O.
NorthWest What are the thoughts on the C&O Yellow Bellies?
What are the thoughts on the C&O Yellow Bellies?
A 1st grader I know described them as similar to Despicable Me's Minions.
Another consideration for streamlining is not looks but maintenance ease.
Rule #1 for practical streamlining: Thou Shalt not Cover the Valve Gear!!!!!
I agree about the N&W J - got it right. Also the similarly done New Haven I-5. And except for colors the SP Daylights. But the Southern's one streamlined PS-4 wasn't bad either, a lot better than the more famous NYC J-3's in my opinion or the one or two PRR K-4. The T-1 was a lot better, but still not up to the three I really like. The only problem for me with the Southern's streamlined PS-4 was that the unstreamlined PS-4 was the best looking Pacific for me anywhere!
A bathtub upside down running back end first with a steam locomotive under it still looks like a bathtub. Making the boiler and smoke box into the business end of 30.06 rifle cartridge was a was a more pleasing esthetic.
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