On Board Video Of a Head On. (Well, Close Enough)

[Big Ed]

Photo of northbound train (with camera) lead engine BNSF 4479:

http://www.locophotos.com/PhotoDetails.php?PhotoID=45962

Photo of southbound train that ran the signal, lead engine BNSF 4059

http://www.locophotos.com/PhotoDetails.php?PhotoID=45963

 

 

[Railfan1]

Wow..... thanks for those links.

[CrazyDiamond]

The signal you see at the beginning of the video is approach medium, yellow over yellow, be prepared to past next signal not exceeding 40 mph, and be prepared to take diverging route at prescribed speed for the turnout. It appears red on the video due to the qaulity but the signals have 3 lenses under each hood, top is green middle is yellow bottom is red, the middle lens is lit meaning that it is definetly a yellow over yellow. The signal before impact is red over green, proceed on divergin route, nothing unexpected with the signal.  It is not until they notice the other train moving and the signal change to red over red, that anything really would cause alarm, we make meets several times every shift. If the dispatcher is good both trains generally are rolling towards each other when meeting and usually one train stops but not for long. Most sidings have crossings and blocking crosings is not an option.

 

I agree...although on my PC I see Y/Y and then R/G clearly...no doubt about the colour. 

[BaltACD]

Photo of northbound train (with camera) lead engine BNSF 4479:

http://www.locophotos.com/PhotoDetails.php?PhotoID=45962

Photo of southbound train that ran the signal, lead engine BNSF 4059

http://www.locophotos.com/PhotoDetails.php?PhotoID=45963

4059 would appear to be repairable.  4479 I would expect to find scraped.  From those pictures, the crew of the 4479 is lucky to be alive.

[mj5890]

4059 would appear to be repairable.  4479 I would expect to find scraped.  From those pictures, the crew of the 4479 is lucky to be alive.

The crew of 4479 is alive because they bailed out, you can see it in the movie around :41 to :43 that they bailed out of the engineers side of the locomotive(good thing they did), its hard to see because of the low quality

[cordon]

The crews around here usually talk to each other as they approach a meet and are aware of each other's presence.  This is dark territory, so they hear the warrants and rollups from the other trains.  Maybe that's one advantage to dark territory.

  

[silicon212]

4059 would appear to be repairable.  4479 I would expect to find scraped.  From those pictures, the crew of the 4479 is lucky to be alive.

The crew of 4479 is alive because they bailed out, you can see it in the movie around :41 to :43 that they bailed out of the engineers side of the locomotive(good thing they did), its hard to see because of the low quality

 That would be the 4059 crew.  4479 is the locomotive "we" are riding on, taking the siding.

[Anonymous]

What do railroads teach about riding it out or bailing? What would you do if you were to "go by the books"?

 

The GCOR rule book states that when in doubt take the safe course.  There is no rule really saying whether you bail or ride it out.  That decision comes from you and what you think is best.  If you think you should jump, dont second think your self, as you may be stuck in the cab for a while.  You you are going to try and ride it out, you better get comfortable it is going to be a long and hard right from that point on. 

[Railfan1]

Ok, so they teach to make your own call. I guess that makes sence so someone that gets injured can't come back and say "well, I was following procedure and got hurt".

[Anonymous]

The crews around here usually talk to each other as they approach a meet and are aware of each other's presence.  This is dark territory, so they hear the warrants and rollups from the other trains.  Maybe that's one advantage to dark territory.

  

Question:

What are you talking about.  Are you sure you watched the same video as everyone else.  This is CTC with ABS signals.  All the dark territory I have ever worked did not have a signal except at interlockings.  This sure is not an interlocker.  Can someone else please tell me if they have ever seen ABS signals in Dark Territory. 

[CShaveRR]

4479 I would expect to find scraped.

Now there's an understatement.  In fact, it would probably be scraped so badly it might have to be scrapped!

Sorry--couldn't resist

[Railfan1]

4479 I would expect to find scraped.

Now there's an understatement.  In fact, it would probably be scraped so badly it might have to be scrapped!

Sorry--couldn't resist

Naw, you could buff that out no problem.....

[Krazykat112079]

4479 I would expect to find scraped.

Now there's an understatement.  In fact, it would probably be scraped so badly it might have to be scrapped!

Sorry--couldn't resist

Naw, you could buff that out no problem.....

Duct tape and Windex will fix it right up.

[zardoz]

  All the dark territory I have ever worked did not have a signal except at interlockings.  This sure is not an interlocker.  Can someone else please tell me if they have ever seen ABS signals in Dark Territory. 

railroadjj,

You are correct on all counts: ABS signals and dark territory are mutually exclusive terms.

Indeed, dark territory means no signals.

[Anonymous]

The crews around here usually talk to each other as they approach a meet and are aware of each other's presence.  This is dark territory, so they hear the warrants and rollups from the other trains.  Maybe that's one advantage to dark territory.

  

Question:

What are you talking about.  Are you sure you watched the same video as everyone else.  This is CTC with ABS signals.  All the dark territory I have ever worked did not have a signal except at interlockings.  This sure is not an interlocker.  Can someone else please tell me if they have ever seen ABS signals in Dark Territory. 

 

First please let me say I should have read this more closely and that I appoligize.  Yes, the BNSF here in the DFW area is Dark Territory.  The TRE ( Commuter trains) are CTC.  The UP is CTC.  DGNO well you cant even say they are dark territory or CTC, they are Yard Limits.  Dart is ABS, they dont consider it to be CTC.  Although the new lines are going to be cab signals.  KCS is DTC, Yard Limits.  Once again please except my deepest and sincere appolige.  Sorry I cant spell everything correct.  But then again why would I, I work billing out buses, so it is #'s.

[Poppa_Zit]

4479 I would expect to find scraped.

Now there's an understatement.  In fact, it would probably be scraped so badly it might have to be scrapped!

Sorry--couldn't resist

[cordon]

The crews around here usually talk to each other as they approach a meet and are aware of each other's presence.  This is dark territory, so they hear the warrants and rollups from the other trains.  Maybe that's one advantage to dark territory.

  

Question:

What are you talking about.  Are you sure you watched the same video as everyone else.  This is CTC with ABS signals.  All the dark territory I have ever worked did not have a signal except at interlockings.  This sure is not an interlocker.  Can someone else please tell me if they have ever seen ABS signals in Dark Territory. 

Very bad writing on my part.  I apologize.  What I meant to say in the second sentence is, "Around here, on the Madill Sub between Carrollton and Denison, it is dark territory, so they hear the warrants and rollups from the other trains."

 

[Anonymous]

I caught on after I went to your profile and saw the video of the DPU units having to move the 120 loaded cars.  I used to run DGNO trains on the BNSF from Carrollton into Irving.

[cordon]

No problem.  "This" is often ambiguous; I'll try to be more careful.

[MP173]

Dont know which is scarier....this video or the one of Marco Andretti flipping over at 220 mph.

Both are scary.

Fortunately, all are ok.

BTW...anyone know of the findings of the 2005 crash at Momence, Il between NS and UP?

ed

[snagletooth]

The crews around here usually talk to each other as they approach a meet and are aware of each other's presence.  This is dark territory, so they hear the warrants and rollups from the other trains.  Maybe that's one advantage to dark territory.

  

Question:

What are you talking about.  Are you sure you watched the same video as everyone else.  This is CTC with ABS signals.  All the dark territory I have ever worked did not have a signal except at interlockings.  This sure is not an interlocker.  Can someone else please tell me if they have ever seen ABS signals in Dark Territory. 

Very bad writing on my part.  I apologize.  What I meant to say in the second sentence is, "Around here, on the Madill Sub between Carrollton and Denison, it is dark territory, so they hear the warrants and rollups from the other trains."

 

I understood the original message to mean someplace other than where the accident was. You did say "around here", and your clearly from Tx. And EJ&E used ABS signals despite the fact it was TWC territory and all sidings were manually thrown. I'm not sure if that's considered dark territory.

[Anonymous]

I know that on the BNSF starting in Sherman they use abs signals so that you can clear your track warrant up to the last signal you had passed.  But they are also  starting signals to keep you moving since once you get into Denison it goes to CTC territory.  Over there in Sherman you have to call out your signals via the radio if you dont have a clear so that everyone around you knows that is going on.

[csxengineer98]

 

Watch it again, you can see the opposing train trip the signal system and our signal aspect changes from red over green, (diverging route) to red over red, as it should once someone ocupy the circut, which the opposing train does just as he passes the signal mast on the other side of the switch.

I thought I was seeing, at first, a green aspect on that signal the first train passed, but when the camera got closer, it looked like red over red.  I did not start/stop to check it out, but just concluded that it was red all along.  Your explanation that it changed by the violation of the oppsing train makes sence.  But even if that signal did go red right in their face, would they not have been required to see it and stop, even if they could not stop short of it?  Don't they have to watch and react to every signal right up to the point where they pass it and can no longer see it?

That brings up another question.  Wouldn't the dispatcher see that the first train passed a red board and communicate the error to the crews of both trains?  When the first train got the red signal in their face, did that mean the other train was passing a red board at that moment?  Wouldn't the dispatcher have seen this whole thing unfolding? 

after watching the video many times.. as fast as that all happend..there was NO WAY anything could have been done in time by anyone but the crews.. the meet was "perfict" so to speak for a headon in the middle of the plant.. the signal on the train with the cam went from medium clear to red about 2 seconds befor the locomotive passed it..that is not enought time to stop unless he was going 1mph.. and he was going alittle faster then that.. and as far as the dispatcher seeing it unfolding..he saw it unfold as soon as the system went "out of corrisondance" as the derailing trains destoryed the wireing and track circits that ran the system at that interlocking.. if the train with the cam on it was a few miles away from the plant.. then there might ahve been some time to stop both trains in time but there was nothing anyone could have done to warn anyone in time for this situation..

csx engineer 

[cordon]

In my attempt to be brief, I was unclear.  Let's try again.

Maybe track warrant control (TWC), used in areas that don't have signals (dark territory), has one advantage.  Under TWC train crews usually hear the conversations between the dispatcher and other trains, so they have knowledge about other trains in the vicinity of their own train. 

In my location, Frisco, TX, the BNSF Madill Subdivision is dark territory.  When a train approaches a passing siding here, a crew member announces on the radio the fact that the train is approaching the siding.  They usually call ahead to a train they expect to meet at the siding.

I am thinking that, if the trains in the video had been under TWC, perhaps such radio communication might have gotten the attention of the crew of the train that ran through the switch, causing them to stop as they were supposed to before fouling the switch.  Or the crew of the video train might have sensed the danger earlier if they had tried to communicate and received no answer, even though they knew the train should have been in radio range. 

I read about a similar accident in a report by the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) where the crew of a train that had entered the passing siding didn't stop in the siding, but ran right through the siding and back out onto the main.  The train collided with the train on the main behind the engine, which had already passed the switch.  This one was also in the very early morning hours.

Scientists who study sleep have reported that people's ability to maintain attention is reduced in the very early morning hours, say, 0100 to 0600 hours.  The impairment is very difficult to overcome, they say.

Thanks for clarifying that there are ABS signals between Sherman and Denison.  I hadn't noticed that.

 

[Anonymous]

 

Watch it again, you can see the opposing train trip the signal system and our signal aspect changes from red over green, (diverging route) to red over red, as it should once someone ocupy the circut, which the opposing train does just as he passes the signal mast on the other side of the switch.

I thought I was seeing, at first, a green aspect on that signal the first train passed, but when the camera got closer, it looked like red over red.  I did not start/stop to check it out, but just concluded that it was red all along.  Your explanation that it changed by the violation of the oppsing train makes sence.  But even if that signal did go red right in their face, would they not have been required to see it and stop, even if they could not stop short of it?  Don't they have to watch and react to every signal right up to the point where they pass it and can no longer see it?

That brings up another question.  Wouldn't the dispatcher see that the first train passed a red board and communicate the error to the crews of both trains?  When the first train got the red signal in their face, did that mean the other train was passing a red board at that moment?  Wouldn't the dispatcher have seen this whole thing unfolding? 

after watching the video many times.. as fast as that all happend..there was NO WAY anything could have been done in time by anyone but the crews.. the meet was "perfict" so to speak for a headon in the middle of the plant.. the signal on the train with the cam went from medium clear to red about 2 seconds befor the locomotive passed it..that is not enought time to stop unless he was going 1mph.. and he was going alittle faster then that.. and as far as the dispatcher seeing it unfolding..he saw it unfold as soon as the system went "out of corrisondance" as the derailing trains destoryed the wireing and track circits that ran the system at that interlocking.. if the train with the cam on it was a few miles away from the plant.. then there might ahve been some time to stop both trains in time but there was nothing anyone could have done to warn anyone in time for this situation..

csx engineer 

I understand and agree with what you say.  My question injected confusion into the explanation because I was questioning the aspect of the first signal at the grade crossing, not the signal at the switch.  On the video, on my monitor, the first signal looked like red over red, when they passed it.  At the very start, it was undecipherable, but it looked like it might have had a green aspect, so I thought it changed from clear to stop.  So this raised the questions of why they would have passed the stop signal, and why the dispatcher would not have reacted since it was a long way from the impact. 

But now I understand that the first signal was yellow over yellow, and neither the dispatcher nor the camera engine crew would have recognized a problem until the signal at the switch went red in their face.

I am curious about how this unfolded for the crew of the opposing train.  It was mentioned somewhere that they were alseep.  If true, I would suppose that they slept passed the approach signal, and also until they were too close to the signal at the switch to stop in time.  Since they were in emergency, I would assume that at least one person woke up and saw the red signal and possibly the approaching train, and then reacted to that situation by dumping the air.

I do not know what the conclusions of the investigation were, but I wonder where the train opposing the camera was when they set the brakes.  It raises one other question, but I won't speculate before others comment.  I think it is interesting to understand exactly how these things happen, and what options are available as time runs out.

[MP173]

Interesting discussion.

In the area I live in (NW Indiana) the CSX and NS crews call out signals over the radio.  CN does not. 

For those of you in train service....how much of a safety issue is calling out the signals?  Is it a good thing, or just another task?  I would think it would help "keep sharp".

 

ed

[Anonymous]

On the Madill sub in Sherman, between Sherman and Denison they have ABS signal in conjunction with TWC.  If you have anything less than a clear- proceed signal then you have to call the signals out over the radio and record it on your signal awarness forms.  If I am correct you do not have to call signal out over the radio unless you have a stop indication and you are stopped.  Then you would notify the dispatcher if you are stoped.  NS and CSX both go by the same rules, but CN, BNSF, UP, KCS they all use the GCOR Rule book.  CSX and NS use the Norac rule book, so some different rules.

[vsmith]

FYI

full vid, including after collision sound, found on YouTube, of course...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-kZONm3E6A&mode=related&search=

Thats no way to run a railroad

[jeffhergert]

  Today we had a safety meeting where this video was being shown.  We were told the person seen jumping was killed from the resulting derailment.

 Jeff

[csxengineer98]

 

Watch it again, you can see the opposing train trip the signal system and our signal aspect changes from red over green, (diverging route) to red over red, as it should once someone ocupy the circut, which the opposing train does just as he passes the signal mast on the other side of the switch.

I thought I was seeing, at first, a green aspect on that signal the first train passed, but when the camera got closer, it looked like red over red.  I did not start/stop to check it out, but just concluded that it was red all along.  Your explanation that it changed by the violation of the oppsing train makes sence.  But even if that signal did go red right in their face, would they not have been required to see it and stop, even if they could not stop short of it?  Don't they have to watch and react to every signal right up to the point where they pass it and can no longer see it?

That brings up another question.  Wouldn't the dispatcher see that the first train passed a red board and communicate the error to the crews of both trains?  When the first train got the red signal in their face, did that mean the other train was passing a red board at that moment?  Wouldn't the dispatcher have seen this whole thing unfolding? 

after watching the video many times.. as fast as that all happend..there was NO WAY anything could have been done in time by anyone but the crews.. the meet was "perfict" so to speak for a headon in the middle of the plant.. the signal on the train with the cam went from medium clear to red about 2 seconds befor the locomotive passed it..that is not enought time to stop unless he was going 1mph.. and he was going alittle faster then that.. and as far as the dispatcher seeing it unfolding..he saw it unfold as soon as the system went "out of corrisondance" as the derailing trains destoryed the wireing and track circits that ran the system at that interlocking.. if the train with the cam on it was a few miles away from the plant.. then there might ahve been some time to stop both trains in time but there was nothing anyone could have done to warn anyone in time for this situation..

csx engineer 

I understand and agree with what you say.  My question injected confusion into the explanation because I was questioning the aspect of the first signal at the grade crossing, not the signal at the switch.  On the video, on my monitor, the first signal looked like red over red, when they passed it.  At the very start, it was undecipherable, but it looked like it might have had a green aspect, so I thought it changed from clear to stop.  So this raised the questions of why they would have passed the stop signal, and why the dispatcher would not have reacted since it was a long way from the impact. 

But now I understand that the first signal was yellow over yellow, and neither the dispatcher nor the camera engine crew would have recognized a problem until the signal at the switch went red in their face.

I am curious about how this unfolded for the crew of the opposing train.  It was mentioned somewhere that they were alseep.  If true, I would suppose that they slept passed the approach signal, and also until they were too close to the signal at the switch to stop in time.  Since they were in emergency, I would assume that at least one person woke up and saw the red signal and possibly the approaching train, and then reacted to that situation by dumping the air.

I do not know what the conclusions of the investigation were, but I wonder where the train opposing the camera was when they set the brakes.  It raises one other question, but I won't speculate before others comment.  I think it is interesting to understand exactly how these things happen, and what options are available as time runs out.

after watching the video agin.. and doing stop go with the mouse.. the first signal in question was yellow over yellow..advandes approch..the color is in question alittle due to poor quility..but if you look at where the lights are lite in each signal head..they are both in the middle of the faces....the "yellow" aspect so to speak...

csx engineer