On Board Video Of a Head On. (Well, Close Enough)

[Poppa_Zit]

Here's the video. Now that people have copies, it probably will never disappear again. There are too many copies and too many sites that allow posting videos.

Better hurry, before they catch on to this new one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Z5PQf_ujqo

[Railfan1]

Thanks PZ.

[Railfan1]

 

Watch it again, you can see the opposing train trip the signal system and our signal aspect changes from red over green, (diverging route) to red over red, as it should once someone ocupy the circut, which the opposing train does just as he passes the signal mast on the other side of the switch.

I thought I was seeing, at first, a green aspect on that signal the first train passed, but when the camera got closer, it looked like red over red.  I did not start/stop to check it out, but just concluded that it was red all along.  Your explanation that it changed by the violation of the oppsing train makes sence.  But even if that signal did go red right in their face, would they not have been required to see it and stop, even if they could not stop short of it?  Don't they have to watch and react to every signal right up to the point where they pass it and can no longer see it?

That brings up another question.  Wouldn't the dispatcher see that the first train passed a red board and communicate the error to the crews of both trains?  When the first train got the red signal in their face, did that mean the other train was passing a red board at that moment?  Wouldn't the dispatcher have seen this whole thing unfolding? 

You can see it change from green to red once the opposing train triggers it by getting to close too the single main.

[Poppa_Zit]

Interesting thought:

If "our" engineer hadn't thrown it into emergency, his locomotive would have taken the siding safely and the other train would have rammed into "our" train somewhere well behind the locomotive.

Yes?

[chad thomas]

WOW !!!! That's nutty !!!

Thanks PZ

 

[Poppa_Zit]

Hindsight is always 20/20.

[Big Ed]

What about some pics of the aftermath?

If you have an account with trainorders you can see still shots at this link:

http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?1,1183947,1183947#msg-1183947

[Railfan1]

Do those cameras pick up any communication?

[Anonymous]

 

Watch it again, you can see the opposing train trip the signal system and our signal aspect changes from red over green, (diverging route) to red over red, as it should once someone ocupy the circut, which the opposing train does just as he passes the signal mast on the other side of the switch.

I thought I was seeing, at first, a green aspect on that signal the first train passed, but when the camera got closer, it looked like red over red.  I did not start/stop to check it out, but just concluded that it was red all along.  Your explanation that it changed by the violation of the oppsing train makes sence.  But even if that signal did go red right in their face, would they not have been required to see it and stop, even if they could not stop short of it?  Don't they have to watch and react to every signal right up to the point where they pass it and can no longer see it?

That brings up another question.  Wouldn't the dispatcher see that the first train passed a red board and communicate the error to the crews of both trains?  When the first train got the red signal in their face, did that mean the other train was passing a red board at that moment?  Wouldn't the dispatcher have seen this whole thing unfolding? 

You can see it change from green to red once the opposing train triggers it by getting to close to the single main.

Sorry about the confusion.  I was referring to the first signal at the grade crossing right at the start of the video.  As for the signal at the siding, I am sure he would have dumped the air at that one, if not even before it went red.  But what was the aspect of that first signal when the engine passed it?  Is that yellow on the top? 

[Railfan1]

 

Watch it again, you can see the opposing train trip the signal system and our signal aspect changes from red over green, (diverging route) to red over red, as it should once someone ocupy the circut, which the opposing train does just as he passes the signal mast on the other side of the switch.

I thought I was seeing, at first, a green aspect on that signal the first train passed, but when the camera got closer, it looked like red over red.  I did not start/stop to check it out, but just concluded that it was red all along.  Your explanation that it changed by the violation of the oppsing train makes sence.  But even if that signal did go red right in their face, would they not have been required to see it and stop, even if they could not stop short of it?  Don't they have to watch and react to every signal right up to the point where they pass it and can no longer see it?

That brings up another question.  Wouldn't the dispatcher see that the first train passed a red board and communicate the error to the crews of both trains?  When the first train got the red signal in their face, did that mean the other train was passing a red board at that moment?  Wouldn't the dispatcher have seen this whole thing unfolding? 

You can see it change from green to red once the opposing train triggers it by getting to close to the single main.

Sorry about the confusion.  I was referring to the first signal at the grade crossing right at the start of the video.  As for the signal at the siding, I am sure he would have dumped the air at that one, if not even before it went red.  But what was the aspect of that first signal when the engine passed it? 

A possible permissive signal? Then again, the video could make a yellow appear to be red. Depends on video quality.

[Anonymous]

 

Watch it again, you can see the opposing train trip the signal system and our signal aspect changes from red over green, (diverging route) to red over red, as it should once someone ocupy the circut, which the opposing train does just as he passes the signal mast on the other side of the switch.

I thought I was seeing, at first, a green aspect on that signal the first train passed, but when the camera got closer, it looked like red over red.  I did not start/stop to check it out, but just concluded that it was red all along.  Your explanation that it changed by the violation of the oppsing train makes sence.  But even if that signal did go red right in their face, would they not have been required to see it and stop, even if they could not stop short of it?  Don't they have to watch and react to every signal right up to the point where they pass it and can no longer see it?

That brings up another question.  Wouldn't the dispatcher see that the first train passed a red board and communicate the error to the crews of both trains?  When the first train got the red signal in their face, did that mean the other train was passing a red board at that moment?  Wouldn't the dispatcher have seen this whole thing unfolding? 

You can see it change from green to red once the opposing train triggers it by getting to close to the single main.

Sorry about the confusion.  I was referring to the first signal at the grade crossing right at the start of the video.  As for the signal at the siding, I am sure he would have dumped the air at that one, if not even before it went red.  But what was the aspect of that first signal when the engine passed it? 

A possible permissive signal? Then again, the video could make a yellow appear to be red. Depends on video quality.

It must be yellow over red.  Would that be the aspect if they were lined into that siding?  I have looked at it a bunch of times, and it seems to look about 95% like red over red.

[Railfan1]

 

Watch it again, you can see the opposing train trip the signal system and our signal aspect changes from red over green, (diverging route) to red over red, as it should once someone ocupy the circut, which the opposing train does just as he passes the signal mast on the other side of the switch.

I thought I was seeing, at first, a green aspect on that signal the first train passed, but when the camera got closer, it looked like red over red.  I did not start/stop to check it out, but just concluded that it was red all along.  Your explanation that it changed by the violation of the oppsing train makes sence.  But even if that signal did go red right in their face, would they not have been required to see it and stop, even if they could not stop short of it?  Don't they have to watch and react to every signal right up to the point where they pass it and can no longer see it?

That brings up another question.  Wouldn't the dispatcher see that the first train passed a red board and communicate the error to the crews of both trains?  When the first train got the red signal in their face, did that mean the other train was passing a red board at that moment?  Wouldn't the dispatcher have seen this whole thing unfolding? 

You can see it change from green to red once the opposing train triggers it by getting to close to the single main.

Sorry about the confusion.  I was referring to the first signal at the grade crossing right at the start of the video.  As for the signal at the siding, I am sure he would have dumped the air at that one, if not even before it went red.  But what was the aspect of that first signal when the engine passed it? 

A possible permissive signal? Then again, the video could make a yellow appear to be red. Depends on video quality.

It must be yellow over red.  Would that be the aspect if they were lined into that siding?  I have looked at it a bunch of times, and it seems to look about 95% like red over red.

It should be yellow over yellow.

[edblysard]

GCOR signal aspect...

Rule 9.1.8 

Aspect...red over green.

Name... Diverging Clear.

Indication... Proceed on diverging route not exceeding prescribed speed.

These are three light hooded signals...Green at the top of the signal, yellow in the middle, and red on the bottom.

 GCOR signal aspect, rule 9.1.7

Name...Approach.

Aspect...yellow, or yellow over red.

Indication...Proceed prepared to stop at next signal.

If it was a yellow over red, it would be a warning to slow down, prepared to stop at the next signal, nothing to do with taking the diverging route.

 

A high red over a green tells the crew the normal route is occupied, the diverging route is clear, and they they are being routed into the diverging route.

In this instance, the speed for the turnout is listed in the timetable or speical instructions.

 

[edblysard]

The other trains signal; is only 500 feet from the turnout, by the time the dispatcher would have seen anything on their board, it was all over with.

I think, and may be mistaken, that this is an CTC/ABS system, with control operators operating the turnouts...trains proceed on signal indication...the signals communicate routing and depending on the timetable, speed.

 

Signals on railroads are not like street traffic signals, you cant just run up on them then stop, due to the mass and weight your are moving...if it worked like that, you would only need a red light and a green light, and no one could go over 20 mph...the system is designed to work in increments, slowing trains well in advance of meets, diverging routes and such by signal aspect and using your timetable speed limits..."our" signal went red due to the presence of another train in the same circuit, in this instance, the circuit begins at the signal just past the turnout, right behind where the other crew member bails out.

Our train had a clear signal just before the curve...the other train was not in the next to last block yet and had not triggered the system...had they been, our train would have had a yellow over red, (proceed prepared to stop at the next signal) or a flashing yellow over red (proceed at restricted speed, prepared to stop short at the next signal) at the next to last signal.

They didn't, (I think they had a red over yellow, diverging approach) so they followed the rules, slowed prepared to take the diverging route.

The other train was still in the clear at that time, so the system gave them the diverging clear signal at the turnout...and they came around the curve to see their signal showing diverging clear, and a train holding the main, what they expected to find.

Only when they get closer do they realize the other train is still moving ...the system can't tell where in the other block the opposing train is or how fast he is moving, only that he is there...

Until he violates our block our signal will remain diverging clear, because the siding is clear, nothing but us are in this one block...until the other train passes the last signal and enters our circuit...had he been paying attention, he would have stopped short of his last signal, in the clear, because he had to have at least one approach signal followed by a stop signal at the last signal post..

 At the last few hundred yards, we have slowed a lot, much more than one would expect for that type of turnout, indicating to me that "we" did a full service reduction.

They would not have plugged the train in a curve, depending on the consist that's a guarantee to derail, they slowed as much as they could, hoping the other train could stop...no luck.

 

Watch it again, you can see the opposing train trip the signal system and our signal aspect changes from red over green, (diverging route) to red over red, as it should once someone ocupy the circut, which the opposing train does just as he passes the signal mast on the other side of the switch.

I thought I was seeing, at first, a green aspect on that signal the first train passed, but when the camera got closer, it looked like red over red.  I did not start/stop to check it out, but just concluded that it was red all along.  Your explanation that it changed by the violation of the oppsing train makes sence.  But even if that signal did go red right in their face, would they not have been required to see it and stop, even if they could not stop short of it?  Don't they have to watch and react to every signal right up to the point where they pass it and can no longer see it?

That brings up another question.  Wouldn't the dispatcher see that the first train passed a red board and communicate the error to the crews of both trains?  When the first train got the red signal in their face, did that mean the other train was passing a red board at that moment?  Wouldn't the dispatcher have seen this whole thing unfolding? 

[youngengineer]

The signal you see at the beginning of the video is approach medium, yellow over yellow, be prepared to past next signal not exceeding 40 mph, and be prepared to take diverging route at prescribed speed for the turnout. It appears red on the video due to the qaulity but the signals have 3 lenses under each hood, top is green middle is yellow bottom is red, the middle lens is lit meaning that it is definetly a yellow over yellow. The signal before impact is red over green, proceed on divergin route, nothing unexpected with the signal.  It is not until they notice the other train moving and the signal change to red over red, that anything really would cause alarm, we make meets several times every shift. If the dispatcher is good both trains generally are rolling towards each other when meeting and usually one train stops but not for long. Most sidings have crossings and blocking crosings is not an option.

 

[shrek623]

This was shown to us as a "safety briefing" by trainmasters after the our (BNSF)chicago region had a number of signal violations and was shown to scare(which it does) the reality back into us. We were shown the video and the engineer tapes from both trains. "Our" train did have the signal to enter the diverging route until just before reaching it. The "video" train was supposed to stop and meet this train before proceeding. The person you see jumping right before impact is the conductor(as it was explained to us). Also, in reviewing "our" trains tapes, this was so sudden that "our" train did not even have a chance to apply the emergency before impact, as what they were seeing as they rounded the bend "looked" as it should. This accident happened at 40 mph(our train) and i think the video train was near 40 also on impact. We were also shown an in cab video of a coal train crash in dark territory where a switch had not been lined back by a local after they had parked in the siding. We were told that everyone in both videos we saw survived.

[Semper Vaporo]

In the video, I can hear what I interpret as the whine of the dynamic brake fans running and then they seem to fade away.  At that point the "rate" of deceleration seems to me to level off, almost to the point where the trains seems to be just coasting and no longer slowing.  I assume that when the speed dropped below about 25MPH, the dynamics probably just dropped out altogether and without them the braking effect was greatly reduced.

Those of you that have actual experience with dynamic brakes and such, is my interpretation even close to corrrect?

The other thing I was wondering about was the lack of voices on the audio.  I would expect to hear some explitives when the crew saw the other train and to hear some footfalls as they exited the back of the cab, or at least them yelling at each other to "Hang on!" or some such thing.  How is it that the camera is apparently INSIDE the cab, based on the window frame around the scene, and the audio caught the horn and wheel noises, but not the voices of the crew?

A couple of other questions:  Where are the exits in that particular model of locomotive?  I assume one is the center of the front of the cab and another is in the back to the walkway along the engine compartment.  But which side is that exit?  On the side that took the impact or behind the camera position?  Could the crew have evacuated from the cab and jumped from the locomotive with enough time to not be run over by the oncoming train nor their own trailing cars as they derailed and accordianed in the accident? 

Which is better, jump or ride it out?

 

 

[ericsp]

This video was posted on another railfan site I go to and others said:  all crew members survived with only minor injuries; the three-man crew on the opposing train fell asleep until it was too late to stopand they bailed;  the crew on the video train rode it out; opposing train was 7 locos and 55 cars; video train 5 locos and 30 cars; a total of 24 cars and locomotives derailed.  I cannot confirm these details as they are "third hand" and should be treated as such.

The news reports listed two, if I remember correctly, crew members in serious condition. All did survive. There is a link the the thread about the release of the report in my second post. That thread also has a link to the thread from the time of the wreck. More information can be found in those threads.

http://www.fra.dot.gov/downloads/safety/120706trainaccsum.pdf Scroll down to June 14, 2006.

[snagletooth]

This video was posted on another railfan site I go to and others said:  all crew members survived with only minor injuries; the three-man crew on the opposing train fell asleep until it was too late to stopand they bailed;  the crew on the video train rode it out; opposing train was 7 locos and 55 cars; video train 5 locos and 30 cars; a total of 24 cars and locomotives derailed.  I cannot confirm these details as they are "third hand" and should be treated as such.

The news reports listed two, if I remember correctly, crew members in serious condition. All did survive. There is a link the the thread about the release of the report in my second post. That thread also has a link to the thread from the time of the wreck. More information can be found in those threads.

http://www.fra.dot.gov/downloads/safety/120706trainaccsum.pdf Scroll down to June 14, 2006.

rrnut282,well, good for that! ericps, didn't see anything related, sorry. Alot of people dbeting on how the accident happened, I'm sure, by now, the ICC has already solved that with the film and other methods! A question to seasoned engineers, would it have made any difference to accelerate to make sure the accident happened behind the lead loco? The old Truckers saying , when rookies questioned us trying to get around a seamly reckless driver, I'd hope it never happens, but if it does, I'd rather it happened behind me, than in front of me! I've had them happen in front of me, and I barely stoppped in time from making it worse. I know trains don't eccelerate anywhere near a semi's, but if you don't have time to jump, does it ever cross you're mind to try and out run at least the head on?

 I'm not trying to bring up anyones bad memories, I had ten years on the road and I saw A LOT. I had the great fortune of getting long experinced drivers out (Oh, Lord, I went thru Crusty!! In New Buffalo, MI.!)on lead. I learn "in School", trucking was 80% knowledge, 20% instinct! I learned real Quick that it was 90% instinct, 10% knowledge. And still only lasted ten years. I bow to 20-30-40-50 year vets.and still fear the rookies!

[Anonymous]

The reason you can not hear the crew is the sound recorder is placed out side the locomotive.  These camera were installed on locomotives to help out with court cases with people that were hit at railroad crossings.  The recorders were placed outside so that in court when the person hit says the bell and horn were not blowing or ringing.  Then the railroad could come back and saw, your honor we have recordings from that train showing the horn and hell were going at that crossing.  So all the railroads did was put the 2 together.  More than likely, I have not seen the video yet, but you are probably hearing the dyno's.  Although when the train drops below 25 mph, you will still here the dynos going, but they will not slow the train as much.  I could be wrong,  but if I remeber correctly when you put your train into emergency, the dyno's will drop out.  Like I said I could be wrong.

[traisessive1]

Another thing you guys must have noticed ... forgive me if I am wrong. I work under CROR rules where ALL signals have number plates.

But from what I know, absolute signals in the US don't have number plates correct? It seems that the first signal we see them pass does, and the one at the meet does not.

[Anonymous]

Signals that have an A or absenence of a # plate or absolute signal.  If it is red you do not pass what so ever, things like that.  But signals that have a # plate are intermediete signals.  These are basically signals put inbetween absolute signals.  Basiaclly the only signal with a red aspect is an intermediet signal that has a G on it.  If I remeber correctly signal with numbers plates can show a red and depending on what rules and the railroad you work for, you can either stop and proceed at restricted speed, you can reduce to restricted speed.  Since I have not seen the video yet (although I plan to as soon as I get home)  I can not say to much on it.

[eolafan]

The link to the video is no longer working...what happened?

[Anonymous]

Try this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Z5PQf_ujqo

[Railfan1]

Thanks. Which key words are you using in the search bar?

[Anonymous]

The signal you see at the beginning of the video is approach medium, yellow over yellow, be prepared to past next signal not exceeding 40 mph, and be prepared to take diverging route at prescribed speed for the turnout. It appears red on the video due to the qaulity but the signals have 3 lenses under each hood, top is green middle is yellow bottom is red, the middle lens is lit meaning that it is definetly a yellow over yellow.

Yes, I can see, now that you mention it, the middle lenses are lit, so it would be yellow over yellow.  The whole thing makes sense to me now.  Even though the video does not show the actual collision, it is still a most powerful video for what it stands for, and for the details that it does show as the basis for the collision begins to unfold.

[Anonymous]

Thanks. Which key words are you using in the search bar?

I got that link from the post by Poppa_zit in the middle of page 2. 

[Railfan1]

Ok, I didn't know if that was the same link or not.

[youngengineer]

Speeding up the train in this instance would not have done much, the slack in the train was bunched from the dynamics and air was set, to pull on the train would have caused runout from the locomotives and the cars would have been slowing. The locomotives are dash9-44cw so the would not have loaded quick enough to pull on the train. You can hear earlier in the video a pop sound which was the engineer bailing off the locomotive brakes. You don't want engine brakes set at higher than 10 mph, Dynamic brakes also work better at slower speeds, below 30 mph dynamics have a much higher retarding force. Dynamic breaks will slow a train to about 10 mph on older locomotives and 6-8 mph on newer locomotives. The engines also have what is called dynamic brake holding feature which means when an enigine is put in emergency the dynamics continue to work to help with the slowing of the train, opposite when in power the locomotive drops its load.

As far as jumping or riding out the collision, that is a case by case situation, sometimes riding it out is better sometimes jumping is better, jumping from a moving locomotive especially at higher speeds is iffy, when you jump you dont necesaarialy know where your going to land, a pole, wire or anything can be in your path, and hitting something on the way down usually causes sever injury and sometimes death, riding the enignes out can be bad if your injuries in the wreck wont allow you to get out in case of fire, or something else. You have to make a split second decision and pray for the best result. Train personall have died doing both and have lived doing both.

[Railfan1]

What do railroads teach about riding it out or bailing? What would you do if you were to "go by the books"?