I'm a high school art teacher. I teach in a small town, so the number of "troubled kids", so to speak, is low. But, if ANY kid comes up to me and wants to paint something, even those not in my art classes, I'll for sure find something for him to paint on and paint with besides a boxcar. I've seen work and known kids who have SOLD paintings just like what you see on passing trains. So every chance I get, even if they want to paint "edgy" stuff, if it's not gang related, nudity, drug related, alcohol related, or cursing, they can do it. So, if you want to get back to the "social" aspect of tagging, or whatever it's called now, it's still trespassing and destroying other's property. You want to do the work for the sake of doing art, there are plenty of places for that, and who knows, an art teacher or artist might actually start a young person on a career they never dreamed they could do FOR MONEY just by giving them an opportunity. I know a young man in art school in Houston who is just like that. He was an OK artist at best in high school, but now he's amazing, and he'll make a hell of a lot more money as an artist as I do as a teacher. And he never painted a train.
Modeling the Pennsylvania Railroad in N Scale.
www.prr-nscale.blogspot.com
chad thomas wrote: Well if more people in society would step up and take the time to try and "school" these kids who's parents are not doing there job, then mabee things would be different.
Well if more people in society would step up and take the time to try and "school" these kids who's parents are not doing there job, then mabee things would be different.
Well if more people in society would step up and take the time to try and "school" these kids who's parents are not doing there job, then mabee things would be different. Instead of spending time pointing fingers try spending time trying to prevent these thgings from happening again.
Just a thought..................
The official 2005 Darwin Awards are out.
http://www.darwin.com/
He missed these by a few weeks, so I am going to nominate this idiot for a 2007 award. At least he will not produce any stupid offstring.
I think that most heavy rail lines are already fenced. I know that BART is, at least where it isn't elevated or subwayed. There may be a few places that aren't, but I can't think of any.
In this case, the kids actually made their way through a hole in the fence. The complaint is that a better job should have been done to keep the fences in good repair. Which seems to me to be just as hard as to keep things free of graffiti.
TimChgo9 wrote: "Making the tracks inaccesible".... I love that line. Unfortunately, there seems to be a growing sentiment among people out there, that "something" has to be done to prevent people from going on the tracks. I have seen it in letters to the editor in the local paper, and heard it in conversations among parents at my son's school. I don't know if anything will ever come of such a movement, because, short of 8 foot tall concrete barriers, and converting all crossings to under/overpasses, tracks will probably never be "inaccesible"
"Making the tracks inaccesible".... I love that line. Unfortunately, there seems to be a growing sentiment among people out there, that "something" has to be done to prevent people from going on the tracks. I have seen it in letters to the editor in the local paper, and heard it in conversations among parents at my son's school. I don't know if anything will ever come of such a movement, because, short of 8 foot tall concrete barriers, and converting all crossings to under/overpasses, tracks will probably never be "inaccesible"
Most likely, the more "inaccesible" you make the tracks, the more these people will want to get to them!
Dan
RR Redneck wrote: Reno Sparky wrote: ericsp wrote:If he had not been committing a crime he would still be alive.Maybe, but painting a mural shouldn't be a crime. In L.A., the local council let some of these graffitti artists satisfy their need to paint by creating murals. Some are in underpasses, some are close to the tracks so train passengers can see. These murals are not ugly---they really are impressive. It's the gang graffiti artists that I can't stand. Take a close look at the graffiti on a lot of trains. A fairly large majority of it IS NOT art. It is gang related trash!
Reno Sparky wrote: ericsp wrote:If he had not been committing a crime he would still be alive.Maybe, but painting a mural shouldn't be a crime. In L.A., the local council let some of these graffitti artists satisfy their need to paint by creating murals. Some are in underpasses, some are close to the tracks so train passengers can see. These murals are not ugly---they really are impressive. It's the gang graffiti artists that I can't stand.
ericsp wrote:If he had not been committing a crime he would still be alive.
Maybe, but painting a mural shouldn't be a crime. In L.A., the local council let some of these graffitti artists satisfy their need to paint by creating murals. Some are in underpasses, some are close to the tracks so train passengers can see. These murals are not ugly---they really are impressive. It's the gang graffiti artists that I can't stand.
Take a close look at the graffiti on a lot of trains. A fairly large majority of it IS NOT art. It is gang related trash!
Make no mistake, this is not art. If someone wants to make "art" they have plenty of law abiding outlets to do so. Take a class at your local community college or local YMCA or go through your yellow pages or the internet and buy some supplies like oh I don't know a piece of paper and some paint. In other spots of this forum or model railroaders who build exquisite models of pieces of railroad equipment and the world around them.
There are plenty of legal outlets to display your creativity. I think maybe some judge should let people go and trash the graffiti artists' houses and cars and belongings and see if they still consider that "Self Expression". See if they think those are "nice pieces".
greyhounds wrote: spokyone wrote: Sources said the boy's mother, Yaffa Simantov, an Israeli immigrant who is divorced from Ari's dad, rushed to the horrific scene and, overcome with shock and grief, later fainted at the 112th Precinct stationhouse.I regret the 13 year old was killed - that's far too young to die doing anything. And I know the loss of her child has to tear the heart out of his mother -- she deserves comfort and sympathy in her time of loss -- but didn't your mother teach you not to play on the railroad tracks?
spokyone wrote: Sources said the boy's mother, Yaffa Simantov, an Israeli immigrant who is divorced from Ari's dad, rushed to the horrific scene and, overcome with shock and grief, later fainted at the 112th Precinct stationhouse.
Sources said the boy's mother, Yaffa Simantov, an Israeli immigrant who is divorced from Ari's dad, rushed to the horrific scene and, overcome with shock and grief, later fainted at the 112th Precinct stationhouse.
I regret the 13 year old was killed - that's far too young to die doing anything. And I know the loss of her child has to tear the heart out of his mother -- she deserves comfort and sympathy in her time of loss -- but didn't your mother teach you not to play on the railroad tracks?
Umm no.
Mechanical Department "No no that's fine shove that 20 pound set all around the yard... those shoes aren't hell and a half to change..."
The Missabe Road: Safety First
Lionel collector, stuck in an N scaler's modelling space.
Admittedly, I'm late to this party.
I also come from a place where graffiti "artists" aren't among the highly respected. (Hizzoner suggested, not entirely in jest, that they be placed in stocks in the public square.)
IMHO, this incident (I cannot, in good conscience, call it an accident) improved the breed.
As for Mom trying (with the assistance of some idiot with a law degree) to sue the world, if I was presiding, I would fine HER for failing her parental responsibilities.
Just my . Feel free to disagree.
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - where graffiti were unknown)
vtCSX wrote: Hi all,As i am in the field of law enforcement, this issue is close to my heart as a railfan and an officer..It's not that we don't place a higher value on the boxcar, but the laws are in place to keep this "poor 13-year old" kid (a.k.a. moron) alive. If you aren't supposed to be in a place, there is probably a good reason for it. As far as railroad employees getting killed on the job...yes they make mistakes, and sometimes die for it. But they were supposed to be there in the first place!!!!I'm sick and tired of this countrys lack of responsibility for one's own actions. I see time and time again in the courts where we charge people for SERIOUS crimes, and it is ALWAYS SOMEONE ELSE"S FAULT. Bulls*&$!!!If there aren't neon signs and landmines, and god only knows what else to prevent tresspassing, people still do it. And even if on your PRIVATE property you placed these things, and still someone entered and got hurt while trying to get around your preventive measures, that is your fault too!Look at the news wire with the lawsuit filed against Amtrak. The lady pushed her car through the lowered gates, and the family is suing because they say the crossing shouldn't be there!!!! Unreal!!!!And comments about being insensitive...why should we feel bad about a kid who paid the price for his stupidity. Why has it almost become a requirement to be politically correct about every facet of everyone else's actions? Sensitive.....Please....It's like fighting a war, but trying not to kill anybody who's shooting at you....I realize I'm ranting a little bit here, and I apologize. A twelve hour shift will do that to you.But enough is enough. People choose their own destiny, and if things go bad while doing stuff they know is wrong....TOO BAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Marc
Hi all,
As i am in the field of law enforcement, this issue is close to my heart as a railfan and an officer..
It's not that we don't place a higher value on the boxcar, but the laws are in place to keep this "poor 13-year old" kid (a.k.a. moron) alive. If you aren't supposed to be in a place, there is probably a good reason for it. As far as railroad employees getting killed on the job...yes they make mistakes, and sometimes die for it. But they were supposed to be there in the first place!!!!
I'm sick and tired of this countrys lack of responsibility for one's own actions. I see time and time again in the courts where we charge people for SERIOUS crimes, and it is ALWAYS SOMEONE ELSE"S FAULT. Bulls*&$!!!
If there aren't neon signs and landmines, and god only knows what else to prevent tresspassing, people still do it. And even if on your PRIVATE property you placed these things, and still someone entered and got hurt while trying to get around your preventive measures, that is your fault too!
Look at the news wire with the lawsuit filed against Amtrak. The lady pushed her car through the lowered gates, and the family is suing because they say the crossing shouldn't be there!!!! Unreal!!!!
And comments about being insensitive...why should we feel bad about a kid who paid the price for his stupidity. Why has it almost become a requirement to be politically correct about every facet of everyone else's actions? Sensitive.....Please....It's like fighting a war, but trying not to kill anybody who's shooting at you....
I realize I'm ranting a little bit here, and I apologize. A twelve hour shift will do that to you.
But enough is enough. People choose their own destiny, and if things go bad while doing stuff they know is wrong....TOO BAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Marc
Marc, welcome to the forums. Perhaps with your background, you will bring a fresh perspective to some of the issues discussed here.======================================================
A few months ago there was a thread here regarding some kids that climbed on some equipment and got zapped by the catenary. No one seemed to have any sympathy for those dolts; why does anyone have any sympathy for this idiot?
Quotes probably never said by this "artist" (aka VANDAL):1. Gee, it's foggy, maybe we should stay away from the tracks.2. Hey, guys, these trains go real fast, maybe we should not go near them.3. Just because you 'dared' me, I'm still not going to do it.4. I'm not going to paint that; I respect other people's property.5. Maybe I should listen to mom and not tresspass.
We all wonder "when will people realize......" but, they never will, as time goes on, people get more and more irresponsible, and spend more time blaming everyone and everything else. There is a certain percentage of people that will never, and I mean never accept responsiblitly for their actions, and will seek to sue, blame others, and absolve themselves, it's aggravating. Here in Illinois, we lead the country in lawsuits. We are not known as "The Land of Lincoln", but rather "The Land of Litigation"
loocpoc wrote: As an Amtrak police officer, I have dealt with this type of situation for the last 3 years. Intresting enough when you do issue citations for trespassing or throwing rocks at trains, the parents female dog that what the kids do is what kids do and even go to court with that mentality. The mother has already decided to sue the New York MTA, LIRR and NYC for not making the tracks inaccessible. Although Ive heard the other juveniles who were with the young man may still be issued citations for the trespass.
As an Amtrak police officer, I have dealt with this type of situation for the last 3 years. Intresting enough when you do issue citations for trespassing or throwing rocks at trains, the parents female dog that what the kids do is what kids do and even go to court with that mentality.
The mother has already decided to sue the New York MTA, LIRR and NYC for not making the tracks inaccessible. Although Ive heard the other juveniles who were with the young man may still be issued citations for the trespass.
Again...continuing the stupidity of 'I/we screwed up so we're gonna sue you!'. It won't happen but IMO the judge could do the country a favor and toss this case out.
Goober wrote:In my opinion some of the comments have been insensitive to the boy and his family, however, your comment on the "kinship with railfans" is equally insensitive. No one said he "deserved" to die.
I accept your criticism. I recast other posters' comments too harshly and I shouldn't have. Thanks.
Have fun with your trains
greyhounds wrote:I regret the 13 year old was killed - that's far too young to die doing anything. And I know the loss of her child has to tear the heart out of his mother -- she deserves comfort and sympathy in her time of loss -- but didn't your mother teach you not to play on the railroad tracks?
I just wish they'd stop using the word "artist" in concert with the word "graffiti".
It just sorta glorifies this type of criminal activity.
CONSEQUENCES!
Instant replay of what happened near Burbank/Gemco 15 years ago.
ericsp et. al.: I'd dearly love to have the names and addresses of the LA politicians (boobs) who encouraged "art & murals" on any available walls. I want to go to their residences and tag the living daylights out of their houses, cars, sidewalks etc. and then have their vaunted LA Street Sweeping/lot Cleaning offices fine them and them put them on notice to clean up or face an even bigger fine. The police need to tell them that this isn't a problem and they won't go after the vandals (in this case me as I'm laughing at 'em!)....This was LA in the 1990's and I understand it has hardly improved today. The LA roadmaster is still spending in the high six-figures in removing garbage and grafitti dumped on just one railroad by some of LA's fine citizens (VSmith excluded....That garbage included boats(!), cars, hazmat, travel trailers and lots of stuff you don't want to hear about.) The structures department repainted umpteen structures at a similar cost each year.
JUst a few details.
"We were doing graffiti, and when I turned around, he was gone," one of the pals told Diana Samudio, 14, who said she rushed to the scene after hearing "an explosion."
"He was a good kid," said Diana, who also identified herself as a graffiti artist. "He did some really nice pieces. He was very talented. He died doing what he liked."
The boy and his friends had been tagging signal boxes alongside the tracks and taking pictures of their work before the accident, law enforcement sources said.
Ari, who was behind his buddies, had made it across two sets of tracks, then beat out an oncoming train on a third track, sources said. He thought he was in the clear, but that train had blocked Ari's view of the eastbound train on the last track, a police source said. A heavy fog made visibility poor at the time.
CaptainChuck wrote:Besides a crime being commited, you also have to think of the COMMON SENSE part of it. He was no doubt familiar with Railroads and has seen has fast they go and how frequently they go through. He was most likely aware that a train could come out at any moment, but chose to do so anyways.
Maybe the kid just had "faulty intelligence"?
That's the current "get out of jail free, screw everything up and dodge the blame" cure all excuse these days isn't it?
Bottom line, when you play with fire, YOU WILL GET BURNED!
thats like the car that goes around the warning gates at crossing and gets clobbered by a train,
they did not STOP LOOK LISTEN.......LIVE!!!
to keep illegal mexicans and terrorists from coming into usa we have fences to keep em out, rails need more fences,police,decting devices,dogs to do the same
MichaelSol wrote: Datafever wrote: ericsp wrote: Datafever wrote: Wow. This is really a tough crowd. Doesn't anyone think that a death sentence is a stiff penalty to pay for trespassing?Death sentence? Who sentenced him to death? He did by being stupid. No court did, nobody but himself sentenced him to death.Did I say tough? Maybe inhumane would be a better word. I contrast this with the recent threads regarding railroad workers killed on the job. Railroad workers get the benefit of the doubt and every excuse under the sun why they made a mistake, even as trained professionals on the job.Young people don't get that benefit here.Even though lacking judgment is one of the reasons we call them young people.A 13 year old boy made a mistake, did something stupid, and paid for it with his life. Most of you were lucky when you did your stupid stuff. He wasn't.Godspeed to him and prayers to his devastated family.
Datafever wrote: ericsp wrote: Datafever wrote: Wow. This is really a tough crowd. Doesn't anyone think that a death sentence is a stiff penalty to pay for trespassing?Death sentence? Who sentenced him to death? He did by being stupid. No court did, nobody but himself sentenced him to death.Did I say tough? Maybe inhumane would be a better word.
ericsp wrote: Datafever wrote: Wow. This is really a tough crowd. Doesn't anyone think that a death sentence is a stiff penalty to pay for trespassing?Death sentence? Who sentenced him to death? He did by being stupid. No court did, nobody but himself sentenced him to death.
Datafever wrote: Wow. This is really a tough crowd. Doesn't anyone think that a death sentence is a stiff penalty to pay for trespassing?
Wow. This is really a tough crowd. Doesn't anyone think that a death sentence is a stiff penalty to pay for trespassing?
Death sentence? Who sentenced him to death? He did by being stupid. No court did, nobody but himself sentenced him to death.
Did I say tough? Maybe inhumane would be a better word.
I contrast this with the recent threads regarding railroad workers killed on the job. Railroad workers get the benefit of the doubt and every excuse under the sun why they made a mistake, even as trained professionals on the job.
Young people don't get that benefit here.
Even though lacking judgment is one of the reasons we call them young people.
A 13 year old boy made a mistake, did something stupid, and paid for it with his life. Most of you were lucky when you did your stupid stuff. He wasn't.
Godspeed to him and prayers to his devastated family.
So now this is where the stereotype that all teens are trouble makers comes in. Because there are just a few bad apples in the barrel, everyone decides to stereotype and say that we all "lack judgement" and are troublemakers, etc, etc.
Take the grandmother who got herself and her two grandchildren stuck on the railroad tracks. Obviously, she is not a young person and she herself was lacking judgement. It's not just us young people, I do believe it's everyone.
http://www.trains.com/trn/default.aspx?c=a&id=1324
And while I think that saying that this boy deserved to get killed is going a bit too far, it is his own fault because he knew the risks, but did it anyway. I think part of this also hinges on the parents. The parents should bring their kids up the right way, they should pound discipline and the knowledge of what is right and what is wrong into their kids' heads. My parents did just that with me and that is why I'm the decent person that I am, who tries to stay out of trouble and doesn't go out on the train tracks to paint graffiti on railroad cars.
Willy
You know, it sucks that the kid had to die.
I don't sanctify railroad property, and I am not one who believes that everything the railroad does is right and proper. That being said.... the kids that were out doing the grafitti were doing something they weren't supposed to.... In some ways it is no different from the criminal who gets injured or killed while breaking into someone's house.
Breaking the law, no matter what law, has consequences, playing, or doing anything irresponsible near the railroad tracks has consequences also. Add to that, making stupid choices has it's own set of consequences also.
"Stupid"... that's a word that gets bandied about here quite often especially in threads like this. Now, I know we all do things that are less than bright some days, you know, locking keys in the car, forgetting important stuff as we leave the house, forgetting to check the toaster oven and filling the apartment with smoke.... You know, that's not stupid, I learned from my jobs as a 9-1-1 operator, that "stupid" has a whole different definition. To me, from what I have had to deal with, "stupid" reflects a complete lack of any type of logical mental process, in other words, thinking is arrested, and pushed out of the mind, something done not quite on impulse, but with a complete lack of comprehension of any and all results they may come from said action. There is an air of cluelessness that is hard to describe. That holds true for anyone, I have seen stupidity, of all kinds, displayed by people of all stripes. I learned a long time ago that "The same types of people live on both sides of the tracks." And it is very, very true.
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