Nothing is more fairly distributed than common sense: no one thinks he needs more of it than he already has.
The parent's action is outrageous. They're grieving but so far no word from them regarding accountability. So, if the kids had walked over to a grade crossing where there is no fence, walked along the tracks to the signal box, sprayed it, the boy still gets hit by the train would the railroad still be at fault?
I'm from New York, and I remember seeing liberal parenting in action back in the day. I was always amazed at seeing the kinds of stunts kids got away with........even after "mommy and daddy" knew about it! (bullying, vandalism, profanity towards adults, etc)
Every time I did something, I got my bottom blistered. When I became an adult I looked back and was greatful that I was disciplined in my teen years as well.
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
spokyone wrote: My last post on this thread. I hope it goes away.Yesterday, mourners gathered at a funeral for Ari Kraft, a 13 year old Rego Park boy killed by an LIRR train Friday night. Kraft had been tagging signal boxes before crossing the tracks near the Forest Hills station - to rush home for Sabbath dinner - when a train bound for Huntington hit him. Newsday reports that during the funeral, "details of Kraft's death were not discussed...There was no discussion of graffiti art, which Kraft's friends have said he excelled in. Instead, he was remembered as a computer whiz whose life was cut short."Kraft's family says they will sue the LIRR over gaps in fencing near the railroad that allowed Kraft and his friends to pass through. Kraft family friend Mena Sofer said, "It there was no hole in the fence, [Roger Kraft's] son would be alive today. The message to the children is they should be very careful. The message to the city is they should do something." City Council transportation committee chair John Liu says that the fencing issue is pat of a "wider" maintenance issue (does that include platform gaps?), and making the matter more complicated is that the LIRR and private properties own fencing. Newsday had photographs of the open fencing where Kraft was able to sneak through; the other night, LIRR workers were working to repair the hole. The LIRR says they board up open fencing, but asked that the public contact its hotline 718-558-8228 to report gaps.
My last post on this thread. I hope it goes away.
Yesterday, mourners gathered at a funeral for Ari Kraft, a 13 year old Rego Park boy killed by an LIRR train Friday night. Kraft had been tagging signal boxes before crossing the tracks near the Forest Hills station - to rush home for Sabbath dinner - when a train bound for Huntington hit him. Newsday reports that during the funeral, "details of Kraft's death were not discussed...There was no discussion of graffiti art, which Kraft's friends have said he excelled in. Instead, he was remembered as a computer whiz whose life was cut short."
Kraft's family says they will sue the LIRR over gaps in fencing near the railroad that allowed Kraft and his friends to pass through. Kraft family friend Mena Sofer said, "It there was no hole in the fence, [Roger Kraft's] son would be alive today. The message to the children is they should be very careful. The message to the city is they should do something."
City Council transportation committee chair John Liu says that the fencing issue is pat of a "wider" maintenance issue (does that include platform gaps?), and making the matter more complicated is that the LIRR and private properties own fencing. Newsday had photographs of the open fencing where Kraft was able to sneak through; the other night, LIRR workers were working to repair the hole. The LIRR says they board up open fencing, but asked that the public contact its hotline 718-558-8228 to report gaps.
Oh don't worry if they try to sue the railroads lawyers will eat her lunch. I've had the unfortunate experience of hitting quite a few people on a train. Usually a lawsuit is filed even if I hit a car going around lowered crossing gates! Some unscruppless lawyer will talk a greiving family into a lawsuit. I'VE NEVER HAD TO GO TO COURT! It doesn't make it that far (as long as I didn't do anything wrong while operating the locomotive and everything was working properly!).
The railroad will try to settle for some small amount just to get rid of it, but if the family persist's then they hit them with the bill to repair the equipment, pay for all employees lost time and/or overtime that was a result of the accident, recoup loss of revenue from the delay's to other trains, etc, etc...
It sucks that the kid died, it sucks worse because the other victem is the engineer and he will live with this the rest of his life. I guess he could sue LIRR, apparently that fixes everything.
This is such a joke. If a kid runs out into traffic, how come familys don't sue states or local goverments for not fencing roads? It is a shame that the child died, however it was no fault of the railroad.
Bert
An "expensive model collector"
n012944 wrote: Green Bay Paddlers wrote: This was an awful accident that may have been preventable. I'll let a judge and jury determine that. Not a bunch web forum dwellers hiding behind their monitors. Of course it was preventable, if the vandal was not tresspassing, he would not have been hit. Not sure why you need a jury or judge to figure that one out. Bert
Green Bay Paddlers wrote: This was an awful accident that may have been preventable. I'll let a judge and jury determine that. Not a bunch web forum dwellers hiding behind their monitors.
This was an awful accident that may have been preventable. I'll let a judge and jury determine that. Not a bunch web forum dwellers hiding behind their monitors.
Of course it was preventable, if the vandal was not tresspassing, he would not have been hit. Not sure why you need a jury or judge to figure that one out.
If you live anywhere in the NYSSR,(espically Gotham) no explanation is necessary. If you do not, no explanation is possible!
Try as I might I cannot remember how responsible I was at the ripe old age of 13. Probably not very but if I put a foot wrong my mother certainly would punish me!
The sometimes harsh reactions have surprised me.
One other thing. This week, while listening to Dutch radio, there was a story about a programme over on the BBC. Haven't seen it. Apparently they have a show, big brother type, were they follow teenagers who want to have a baby. One of the people on the show is a boy. He took care of a baby, fed it, clothed it etc. He put it in a buggy and went out with it to his friends to visit them. One problem, when at his friends place, he left the baby in the buggy outside at the sidewalk and when this was pointed out to him he apparently had no clue what was wrong!
I feel sad because this 13 year old boy had a potential good future and deserved a chance. Somehow the warnings did not take hold. For some it probably never will. I just hope that others will learn from it.
greetings,
Marc Immeker
Datafever wrote:On a slightly different note, the news articles were slightly conflicting. Some said that the train was going 45 mph, while others said that it was normal for trains to be running slightly slower than the 40 mph speed limit. Not that it would have changed the outcome, but does anyone know the facts regarding the train speed?
Interesting. Hopefully, for the railroad's sake the train was traveling within the designated speed. If it turns out that the train was exceeding its speed limit, that's just going to be more ammunition for the attorney to use.
PBenham wrote: Datafever wrote:Has there been any further word as to whether a lawsuit has actually been filed in this case? The last news reports that I read only mentioned that the parents were "considering" it.Translation: They are talking to shysters that will take home 25% of the "take". Just once, I'd like to see a bereaved family say "we cannot profit financially from our son's death". But The Cubs will win the World Series, CSX will be intelligently managed, We will give Iran and North Korea what they deserve, and the Lehigh Valley will be revived, before a family is willing to follow the example of Job.
Datafever wrote:Has there been any further word as to whether a lawsuit has actually been filed in this case? The last news reports that I read only mentioned that the parents were "considering" it.
Translation: They are talking to shysters that will take home 25% of the "take". Just once, I'd like to see a bereaved family say "we cannot profit financially from our son's death". But The Cubs will win the World Series, CSX will be intelligently managed, We will give Iran and North Korea what they deserve, and the Lehigh Valley will be revived, before a family is willing to follow the example of Job.
Well, don't forget the reaction of the Amish after some nut decided to go on a killing rampage at a small school.
OTOH, it is seldom that you would hear of a "oh, well, life goes on" response in the news. So even if that is the response 99% of the time, you still only hear about the 1% of "I'm going to get mine while the getting is good", which leads to a slightly skewed view of humanity.
Excellent point!
We can sit behind our monitors and debate this.
Yes, teens can do very stupid things. When I was 14, I climbed inside of a Sliding Door boxcar parked on a siding next to SCL's Tampa to Lakeland mainline. As I tried to climb down off of it, one of my feet became temporarily wedged inside of the rail the door slides on. I fell onto the ballast below. I was very fortunate that my head didn't hit the rail on the track next to the boxcar. I limped to my bicycle and rode away. I KNEW THEN in 1977 that if I would have been seriously injured and survived.......it would have been MY FAULT, not Seaboard Coast Line. Add to that my mother would have given me the ultimate "tanning of my hide".
Not trying to be cold, but teens today in our technically advanced society, regardless of cultural background, are more acutely aware of these dangers even better than we were back then. Difference seems to be that we were held accountable and many more parents then disciplined the children instead of sueing the victim.
Green Bay Paddlers wrote:Not a bunch web forum dwellers hiding behind their monitors.
Not a bunch web forum dwellers hiding behind their monitors.
Not all of us hide behind our monitors in real life. Some of us have plenty of experience.
Notwithstanding that, if you have read my posts, you know where I stand.
AntonioFP45 wrote: Green Bay Paddlers wrote: My god this thread is vile. This was a CHILD! My god... Think back to the stupid things you did at age 13. Better yet, think of some of things your kids did/do or their friends. Would you guys be just as giddy if they died in an accident like this? Unreal... Green Bay,More than likely the majority of the posters here that respond harshly are upset that this kid's family will actually have the nerve to file a lawsuit.The loss is saddening, and horrid and the mother is understandably grief striken. But the thought that this family actually wants to sue the road "cooks my grits" as well. The railroad was likely there 50 to 100 years before this occured. It's doubtful that scores of kids have been run over by trains in the area where the mishap occured. Yet, liberal thinking judges go along willingly and agree with juries in penalizing the railroads anyway. In cases of outright negligence, it's understandable, but in this case was the railroad in the wrong?
Green Bay Paddlers wrote: My god this thread is vile. This was a CHILD! My god... Think back to the stupid things you did at age 13. Better yet, think of some of things your kids did/do or their friends. Would you guys be just as giddy if they died in an accident like this? Unreal...
My god this thread is vile. This was a CHILD! My god... Think back to the stupid things you did at age 13. Better yet, think of some of things your kids did/do or their friends. Would you guys be just as giddy if they died in an accident like this?
Unreal...
Green Bay,
More than likely the majority of the posters here that respond harshly are upset that this kid's family will actually have the nerve to file a lawsuit.
The loss is saddening, and horrid and the mother is understandably grief striken. But the thought that this family actually wants to sue the road "cooks my grits" as well. The railroad was likely there 50 to 100 years before this occured. It's doubtful that scores of kids have been run over by trains in the area where the mishap occured. Yet, liberal thinking judges go along willingly and agree with juries in penalizing the railroads anyway. In cases of outright negligence, it's understandable, but in this case was the railroad in the wrong?
There is a lot here that we don't understand. How many of you have been to this particular place? Why even have lawsuits anymore when you can go onto the internet with a lot of "experts" who know nothing about the case, but can safely "assume" everything? Guilty until proven innocent?
If I have a pool in my backyard, but I don't fence it in, am I responsible for the 6 year old neighbor who comes exploring and drowns in it? How about the 14 year old boy with cognitive disabilities? At what age and capability level does a child become responsible for their own actions? Please tell me so I can stop wasting your time. LOL
Are there frivolous lawsuits in this country? Heck yes, all the time. However, how many aren't? How do you automatically know the facts about this one? It bothers me that a bunch of grown adults who enjoy something so gentle, like taking pictures of trains, can be so cruel while claiming to be experts in railroad liability, legal procedures, and parenting.
Personally, I send my deepest regrets to the family of this child and the engineer of the train. I feel equally terrible for both of them. This was an awful accident that may have been preventable. I'll let a judge and jury determine that. Not a bunch web forum dwellers hiding behind their monitors.
At age 13, I was a regular visitor to the local New Haven railroad depot in my home town. I was not the brightest light in the chandelier, but even I knew that trains going by were worthy of a lot of respect.
Many years later I was a sheriff's deputy. Grafitti has been with us for thousands of years. (Look at the opening credits of HBO's Rome for examples.) I have always felt sorry for the people who had the exciting job of cleaning this "art" up.
I do not empathize with the 13 year old who lost his life, any more than I empathize with the drunk driver who kills himself by driving into a bridge abutment. Both make decisions that are pretty stupid. It's a shame that someone died. But it is not the fault of the railroad. It is not an indicator that society has a responsibility to keep stupid people from hurting themselves. You could stick the LIRR deep underground with openings to the surface protected by the NY National Guard, and sure enough, some homeless guy is going to get run down by the 8:15 to Syosset (change at Jamaica.)
The only lesson we can really pick up out of this thread is a rephrase of a sign off line one member uses: Look, Listen and Learn.
Erik
As an ex-LUL employee, who had one suicide under the train I was driving and later, as a manager, went to many others, it is vital to think of the staff.
Of course, prospective suicides (whom trully I pity) are hardly likely to think of the consequences of their actions on others.
And people like these criminals (which they are) rarely care about anyone else. It's all part of a much greater malaise in our societies.
BUT, one thing must be emphasised. People need to remember thier responsibilities as much as their rights. Untill then, they will always try and blame others.
Sermon over.
Eric Stuart
I really don't think that it is a matter of ascertaining responsibility. The responsibility lies primarily with the boy, but also with his peers, his parents and other responsible adults in his life. I'm not sure how many of the readers of this forum have ever been parents of teenaged boys, but sometimes it just doesn't matter; they are going to do what they feel like doing. Are there very well behaved 13 year olds? Sure. But there are also some who manage to break their parents' heart time after time. And it isn't always because the parents are not involved or being neglectful parents. Parenting is a very difficult job.
Is the railroad responsible? By no means. This just happens to be a very sue-happy society. And by the way, such lawsuits are by no means a recent phenomenon. I was reading a case a few weeks ago that happened some 50/60 years ago - the kid (a six year old) ran into the side of the train, which wasn't even moving all that fast.
Nevertheless, a momentary lapse on the part of the graffiti (artist) resulted in devastating consequences for a lot of people. His friends, his family, and several railroad workers. I can't even imagine what it must be like to have to clean up a mess like that.
Did the boy "deserve" it? Of course not. He "deserved" a pretty good thrashing, or even some time in juvenile hall - something that would shake him up and perhaps give him an opportunity to see that he needed to change his behavior.
But since the consequences of his actions well exceeded that which could be considered appropriate, I feel sorry for him. I feel sorry for his family. I feel sorry for the engineer and the conductor and others that had to deal with the aftermath. Nobody should have to go through that. But it is a fact of life - kids die. And people need to move on, as hard as it can be sometimes.
May I remind people again that this was but a 13 year old? I don't think that death is an appropriate penalty for any graffiti artist, much less one that hasn't even gotten into high school yet.
Come on guys, I don't like graffiti either, but we all make mistakes, some big, some small, some a series of them with really nasty consequences....but that doesn't mean that the consequences are deserved!
Go here for my rail shots! http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?userid=9296
Building the CPR Kootenay division in N scale, blog here: http://kootenaymodelrailway.wordpress.com/
How about the possibilty of negligent parents for allowing the kid to develop such shockingly bad judgement and for being out of their control, probably all the time. He might have been a psychopath - one characteristic of which is a total lack of fear. Anybody with a half-average IQ should be very respectful of the 6000-ton monsters.
Graffitti on railroad cars is NOT beautiful, it's an ugly result of young criminals: a great many of whom will end up in a taxpayer-supported institution most of their lives.
By coincidence, there was a similar incident in London last Friday night:
Pair killed by Underground train Two suspected graffiti artists have been killed by a London Underground (LU) train in Barking, east London.
Pair killed by Underground train
Two suspected graffiti artists have been killed by a London Underground (LU) train in Barking, east London.
See http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/6258337.stm for more details.
Reading the reaction on a UK enthusiast forum, one big difference has struck me: here no one has mentioned the effect of this on the staff involved, whereas there it has been a major element.
But it should not be forgotten that SOMEONE was driving that train ... and (presumably) saw the boy going under it.
And SOMEBODY (probably several) had to clear up the resultant mess.
To say either had a pleasant experience would be perhaps be the understatement of the year - my sympathies are with them.
GP-9_Man11786 wrote:This has become yet another reason for the Newsday to beat up on the Long Island Rail Road. The very next day, they carried a story about holes in the fences along the tracks, whcih the railroad doesn't even own! Before that, there was the girl who fell though the gap at the station, while drunk mind you. She ignored MTA officals, crawled out onto the adjacent track and got struck. After that, story after story about wide gaps at stations and demand the LIRR idiot-proof them all. What's next? Sme kid getting fried on the third rail and Newsday accusing the LIRR of having the voltage too high?
America: land of the lawsuit.
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