loocpoc wrote: As an Amtrak police officer, I have dealt with this type of situation for the last 3 years. Intresting enough when you do issue citations for trespassing or throwing rocks at trains, the parents female dog that what the kids do is what kids do and even go to court with that mentality. The mother has already decided to sue the New York MTA, LIRR and NYC for not making the tracks inaccessible. Although Ive heard the other juveniles who were with the young man may still be issued citations for the trespass.
As an Amtrak police officer, I have dealt with this type of situation for the last 3 years. Intresting enough when you do issue citations for trespassing or throwing rocks at trains, the parents female dog that what the kids do is what kids do and even go to court with that mentality.
The mother has already decided to sue the New York MTA, LIRR and NYC for not making the tracks inaccessible. Although Ive heard the other juveniles who were with the young man may still be issued citations for the trespass.
Again...continuing the stupidity of 'I/we screwed up so we're gonna sue you!'. It won't happen but IMO the judge could do the country a favor and toss this case out.
Dan
"Making the tracks inaccesible".... I love that line. Unfortunately, there seems to be a growing sentiment among people out there, that "something" has to be done to prevent people from going on the tracks. I have seen it in letters to the editor in the local paper, and heard it in conversations among parents at my son's school. I don't know if anything will ever come of such a movement, because, short of 8 foot tall concrete barriers, and converting all crossings to under/overpasses, tracks will probably never be "inaccesible"
We all wonder "when will people realize......" but, they never will, as time goes on, people get more and more irresponsible, and spend more time blaming everyone and everything else. There is a certain percentage of people that will never, and I mean never accept responsiblitly for their actions, and will seek to sue, blame others, and absolve themselves, it's aggravating. Here in Illinois, we lead the country in lawsuits. We are not known as "The Land of Lincoln", but rather "The Land of Litigation"
vtCSX wrote: Hi all,As i am in the field of law enforcement, this issue is close to my heart as a railfan and an officer..It's not that we don't place a higher value on the boxcar, but the laws are in place to keep this "poor 13-year old" kid (a.k.a. moron) alive. If you aren't supposed to be in a place, there is probably a good reason for it. As far as railroad employees getting killed on the job...yes they make mistakes, and sometimes die for it. But they were supposed to be there in the first place!!!!I'm sick and tired of this countrys lack of responsibility for one's own actions. I see time and time again in the courts where we charge people for SERIOUS crimes, and it is ALWAYS SOMEONE ELSE"S FAULT. Bulls*&$!!!If there aren't neon signs and landmines, and god only knows what else to prevent tresspassing, people still do it. And even if on your PRIVATE property you placed these things, and still someone entered and got hurt while trying to get around your preventive measures, that is your fault too!Look at the news wire with the lawsuit filed against Amtrak. The lady pushed her car through the lowered gates, and the family is suing because they say the crossing shouldn't be there!!!! Unreal!!!!And comments about being insensitive...why should we feel bad about a kid who paid the price for his stupidity. Why has it almost become a requirement to be politically correct about every facet of everyone else's actions? Sensitive.....Please....It's like fighting a war, but trying not to kill anybody who's shooting at you....I realize I'm ranting a little bit here, and I apologize. A twelve hour shift will do that to you.But enough is enough. People choose their own destiny, and if things go bad while doing stuff they know is wrong....TOO BAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Marc
Hi all,
As i am in the field of law enforcement, this issue is close to my heart as a railfan and an officer..
It's not that we don't place a higher value on the boxcar, but the laws are in place to keep this "poor 13-year old" kid (a.k.a. moron) alive. If you aren't supposed to be in a place, there is probably a good reason for it. As far as railroad employees getting killed on the job...yes they make mistakes, and sometimes die for it. But they were supposed to be there in the first place!!!!
I'm sick and tired of this countrys lack of responsibility for one's own actions. I see time and time again in the courts where we charge people for SERIOUS crimes, and it is ALWAYS SOMEONE ELSE"S FAULT. Bulls*&$!!!
If there aren't neon signs and landmines, and god only knows what else to prevent tresspassing, people still do it. And even if on your PRIVATE property you placed these things, and still someone entered and got hurt while trying to get around your preventive measures, that is your fault too!
Look at the news wire with the lawsuit filed against Amtrak. The lady pushed her car through the lowered gates, and the family is suing because they say the crossing shouldn't be there!!!! Unreal!!!!
And comments about being insensitive...why should we feel bad about a kid who paid the price for his stupidity. Why has it almost become a requirement to be politically correct about every facet of everyone else's actions? Sensitive.....Please....It's like fighting a war, but trying not to kill anybody who's shooting at you....
I realize I'm ranting a little bit here, and I apologize. A twelve hour shift will do that to you.
But enough is enough. People choose their own destiny, and if things go bad while doing stuff they know is wrong....TOO BAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Marc
Marc, welcome to the forums. Perhaps with your background, you will bring a fresh perspective to some of the issues discussed here.======================================================
A few months ago there was a thread here regarding some kids that climbed on some equipment and got zapped by the catenary. No one seemed to have any sympathy for those dolts; why does anyone have any sympathy for this idiot?
Quotes probably never said by this "artist" (aka VANDAL):1. Gee, it's foggy, maybe we should stay away from the tracks.2. Hey, guys, these trains go real fast, maybe we should not go near them.3. Just because you 'dared' me, I'm still not going to do it.4. I'm not going to paint that; I respect other people's property.5. Maybe I should listen to mom and not tresspass.
Admittedly, I'm late to this party.
I also come from a place where graffiti "artists" aren't among the highly respected. (Hizzoner suggested, not entirely in jest, that they be placed in stocks in the public square.)
IMHO, this incident (I cannot, in good conscience, call it an accident) improved the breed.
As for Mom trying (with the assistance of some idiot with a law degree) to sue the world, if I was presiding, I would fine HER for failing her parental responsibilities.
Just my . Feel free to disagree.
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - where graffiti were unknown)
Reno Sparky wrote: ericsp wrote:If he had not been committing a crime he would still be alive.Maybe, but painting a mural shouldn't be a crime. In L.A., the local council let some of these graffitti artists satisfy their need to paint by creating murals. Some are in underpasses, some are close to the tracks so train passengers can see. These murals are not ugly---they really are impressive. It's the gang graffiti artists that I can't stand.
ericsp wrote:If he had not been committing a crime he would still be alive.
Maybe, but painting a mural shouldn't be a crime. In L.A., the local council let some of these graffitti artists satisfy their need to paint by creating murals. Some are in underpasses, some are close to the tracks so train passengers can see. These murals are not ugly---they really are impressive. It's the gang graffiti artists that I can't stand.
Take a close look at the graffiti on a lot of trains. A fairly large majority of it IS NOT art. It is gang related trash!
Lionel collector, stuck in an N scaler's modelling space.
greyhounds wrote: spokyone wrote: Sources said the boy's mother, Yaffa Simantov, an Israeli immigrant who is divorced from Ari's dad, rushed to the horrific scene and, overcome with shock and grief, later fainted at the 112th Precinct stationhouse.I regret the 13 year old was killed - that's far too young to die doing anything. And I know the loss of her child has to tear the heart out of his mother -- she deserves comfort and sympathy in her time of loss -- but didn't your mother teach you not to play on the railroad tracks?
spokyone wrote: Sources said the boy's mother, Yaffa Simantov, an Israeli immigrant who is divorced from Ari's dad, rushed to the horrific scene and, overcome with shock and grief, later fainted at the 112th Precinct stationhouse.
Sources said the boy's mother, Yaffa Simantov, an Israeli immigrant who is divorced from Ari's dad, rushed to the horrific scene and, overcome with shock and grief, later fainted at the 112th Precinct stationhouse.
I regret the 13 year old was killed - that's far too young to die doing anything. And I know the loss of her child has to tear the heart out of his mother -- she deserves comfort and sympathy in her time of loss -- but didn't your mother teach you not to play on the railroad tracks?
Umm no.
Mechanical Department "No no that's fine shove that 20 pound set all around the yard... those shoes aren't hell and a half to change..."
The Missabe Road: Safety First
RR Redneck wrote: Reno Sparky wrote: ericsp wrote:If he had not been committing a crime he would still be alive.Maybe, but painting a mural shouldn't be a crime. In L.A., the local council let some of these graffitti artists satisfy their need to paint by creating murals. Some are in underpasses, some are close to the tracks so train passengers can see. These murals are not ugly---they really are impressive. It's the gang graffiti artists that I can't stand. Take a close look at the graffiti on a lot of trains. A fairly large majority of it IS NOT art. It is gang related trash!
Make no mistake, this is not art. If someone wants to make "art" they have plenty of law abiding outlets to do so. Take a class at your local community college or local YMCA or go through your yellow pages or the internet and buy some supplies like oh I don't know a piece of paper and some paint. In other spots of this forum or model railroaders who build exquisite models of pieces of railroad equipment and the world around them.
There are plenty of legal outlets to display your creativity. I think maybe some judge should let people go and trash the graffiti artists' houses and cars and belongings and see if they still consider that "Self Expression". See if they think those are "nice pieces".
TimChgo9 wrote: "Making the tracks inaccesible".... I love that line. Unfortunately, there seems to be a growing sentiment among people out there, that "something" has to be done to prevent people from going on the tracks. I have seen it in letters to the editor in the local paper, and heard it in conversations among parents at my son's school. I don't know if anything will ever come of such a movement, because, short of 8 foot tall concrete barriers, and converting all crossings to under/overpasses, tracks will probably never be "inaccesible"
Most likely, the more "inaccesible" you make the tracks, the more these people will want to get to them!
I think that most heavy rail lines are already fenced. I know that BART is, at least where it isn't elevated or subwayed. There may be a few places that aren't, but I can't think of any.
In this case, the kids actually made their way through a hole in the fence. The complaint is that a better job should have been done to keep the fences in good repair. Which seems to me to be just as hard as to keep things free of graffiti.
The official 2005 Darwin Awards are out.
http://www.darwin.com/
He missed these by a few weeks, so I am going to nominate this idiot for a 2007 award. At least he will not produce any stupid offstring.
Well if more people in society would step up and take the time to try and "school" these kids who's parents are not doing there job, then mabee things would be different. Instead of spending time pointing fingers try spending time trying to prevent these thgings from happening again.
Just a thought..................
chad thomas wrote: Well if more people in society would step up and take the time to try and "school" these kids who's parents are not doing there job, then mabee things would be different.
Well if more people in society would step up and take the time to try and "school" these kids who's parents are not doing there job, then mabee things would be different.
Modeling the Pennsylvania Railroad in N Scale.
www.prr-nscale.blogspot.com
I'm a high school art teacher. I teach in a small town, so the number of "troubled kids", so to speak, is low. But, if ANY kid comes up to me and wants to paint something, even those not in my art classes, I'll for sure find something for him to paint on and paint with besides a boxcar. I've seen work and known kids who have SOLD paintings just like what you see on passing trains. So every chance I get, even if they want to paint "edgy" stuff, if it's not gang related, nudity, drug related, alcohol related, or cursing, they can do it. So, if you want to get back to the "social" aspect of tagging, or whatever it's called now, it's still trespassing and destroying other's property. You want to do the work for the sake of doing art, there are plenty of places for that, and who knows, an art teacher or artist might actually start a young person on a career they never dreamed they could do FOR MONEY just by giving them an opportunity. I know a young man in art school in Houston who is just like that. He was an OK artist at best in high school, but now he's amazing, and he'll make a hell of a lot more money as an artist as I do as a teacher. And he never painted a train.
GP-9_Man11786 wrote:This has become yet another reason for the Newsday to beat up on the Long Island Rail Road. The very next day, they carried a story about holes in the fences along the tracks, whcih the railroad doesn't even own! Before that, there was the girl who fell though the gap at the station, while drunk mind you. She ignored MTA officals, crawled out onto the adjacent track and got struck. After that, story after story about wide gaps at stations and demand the LIRR idiot-proof them all. What's next? Sme kid getting fried on the third rail and Newsday accusing the LIRR of having the voltage too high?
America: land of the lawsuit.
By coincidence, there was a similar incident in London last Friday night:
Pair killed by Underground train Two suspected graffiti artists have been killed by a London Underground (LU) train in Barking, east London.
Pair killed by Underground train
Two suspected graffiti artists have been killed by a London Underground (LU) train in Barking, east London.
See http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/6258337.stm for more details.
Reading the reaction on a UK enthusiast forum, one big difference has struck me: here no one has mentioned the effect of this on the staff involved, whereas there it has been a major element.
But it should not be forgotten that SOMEONE was driving that train ... and (presumably) saw the boy going under it.
And SOMEBODY (probably several) had to clear up the resultant mess.
To say either had a pleasant experience would be perhaps be the understatement of the year - my sympathies are with them.
How about the possibilty of negligent parents for allowing the kid to develop such shockingly bad judgement and for being out of their control, probably all the time. He might have been a psychopath - one characteristic of which is a total lack of fear. Anybody with a half-average IQ should be very respectful of the 6000-ton monsters.
Graffitti on railroad cars is NOT beautiful, it's an ugly result of young criminals: a great many of whom will end up in a taxpayer-supported institution most of their lives.
May I remind people again that this was but a 13 year old? I don't think that death is an appropriate penalty for any graffiti artist, much less one that hasn't even gotten into high school yet.
Come on guys, I don't like graffiti either, but we all make mistakes, some big, some small, some a series of them with really nasty consequences....but that doesn't mean that the consequences are deserved!
Go here for my rail shots! http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?userid=9296
Building the CPR Kootenay division in N scale, blog here: http://kootenaymodelrailway.wordpress.com/
I really don't think that it is a matter of ascertaining responsibility. The responsibility lies primarily with the boy, but also with his peers, his parents and other responsible adults in his life. I'm not sure how many of the readers of this forum have ever been parents of teenaged boys, but sometimes it just doesn't matter; they are going to do what they feel like doing. Are there very well behaved 13 year olds? Sure. But there are also some who manage to break their parents' heart time after time. And it isn't always because the parents are not involved or being neglectful parents. Parenting is a very difficult job.
Is the railroad responsible? By no means. This just happens to be a very sue-happy society. And by the way, such lawsuits are by no means a recent phenomenon. I was reading a case a few weeks ago that happened some 50/60 years ago - the kid (a six year old) ran into the side of the train, which wasn't even moving all that fast.
Nevertheless, a momentary lapse on the part of the graffiti (artist) resulted in devastating consequences for a lot of people. His friends, his family, and several railroad workers. I can't even imagine what it must be like to have to clean up a mess like that.
Did the boy "deserve" it? Of course not. He "deserved" a pretty good thrashing, or even some time in juvenile hall - something that would shake him up and perhaps give him an opportunity to see that he needed to change his behavior.
But since the consequences of his actions well exceeded that which could be considered appropriate, I feel sorry for him. I feel sorry for his family. I feel sorry for the engineer and the conductor and others that had to deal with the aftermath. Nobody should have to go through that. But it is a fact of life - kids die. And people need to move on, as hard as it can be sometimes.
Excellent point!
As an ex-LUL employee, who had one suicide under the train I was driving and later, as a manager, went to many others, it is vital to think of the staff.
Of course, prospective suicides (whom trully I pity) are hardly likely to think of the consequences of their actions on others.
And people like these criminals (which they are) rarely care about anyone else. It's all part of a much greater malaise in our societies.
BUT, one thing must be emphasised. People need to remember thier responsibilities as much as their rights. Untill then, they will always try and blame others.
Sermon over.
Eric Stuart
My god this thread is vile. This was a CHILD! My god... Think back to the stupid things you did at age 13. Better yet, think of some of things your kids did/do or their friends. Would you guys be just as giddy if they died in an accident like this?
Unreal...
At age 13, I was a regular visitor to the local New Haven railroad depot in my home town. I was not the brightest light in the chandelier, but even I knew that trains going by were worthy of a lot of respect.
Many years later I was a sheriff's deputy. Grafitti has been with us for thousands of years. (Look at the opening credits of HBO's Rome for examples.) I have always felt sorry for the people who had the exciting job of cleaning this "art" up.
I do not empathize with the 13 year old who lost his life, any more than I empathize with the drunk driver who kills himself by driving into a bridge abutment. Both make decisions that are pretty stupid. It's a shame that someone died. But it is not the fault of the railroad. It is not an indicator that society has a responsibility to keep stupid people from hurting themselves. You could stick the LIRR deep underground with openings to the surface protected by the NY National Guard, and sure enough, some homeless guy is going to get run down by the 8:15 to Syosset (change at Jamaica.)
The only lesson we can really pick up out of this thread is a rephrase of a sign off line one member uses: Look, Listen and Learn.
Erik
Green Bay Paddlers wrote: My god this thread is vile. This was a CHILD! My god... Think back to the stupid things you did at age 13. Better yet, think of some of things your kids did/do or their friends. Would you guys be just as giddy if they died in an accident like this? Unreal...
Green Bay,
More than likely the majority of the posters here that respond harshly are upset that this kid's family will actually have the nerve to file a lawsuit.
The loss is saddening, and horrid and the mother is understandably grief striken. But the thought that this family actually wants to sue the road "cooks my grits" as well. The railroad was likely there 50 to 100 years before this occured. It's doubtful that scores of kids have been run over by trains in the area where the mishap occured. Yet, liberal thinking judges go along willingly and agree with juries in penalizing the railroads anyway. In cases of outright negligence, it's understandable, but in this case was the railroad in the wrong?
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
AntonioFP45 wrote: Green Bay Paddlers wrote: My god this thread is vile. This was a CHILD! My god... Think back to the stupid things you did at age 13. Better yet, think of some of things your kids did/do or their friends. Would you guys be just as giddy if they died in an accident like this? Unreal... Green Bay,More than likely the majority of the posters here that respond harshly are upset that this kid's family will actually have the nerve to file a lawsuit.The loss is saddening, and horrid and the mother is understandably grief striken. But the thought that this family actually wants to sue the road "cooks my grits" as well. The railroad was likely there 50 to 100 years before this occured. It's doubtful that scores of kids have been run over by trains in the area where the mishap occured. Yet, liberal thinking judges go along willingly and agree with juries in penalizing the railroads anyway. In cases of outright negligence, it's understandable, but in this case was the railroad in the wrong?
There is a lot here that we don't understand. How many of you have been to this particular place? Why even have lawsuits anymore when you can go onto the internet with a lot of "experts" who know nothing about the case, but can safely "assume" everything? Guilty until proven innocent?
If I have a pool in my backyard, but I don't fence it in, am I responsible for the 6 year old neighbor who comes exploring and drowns in it? How about the 14 year old boy with cognitive disabilities? At what age and capability level does a child become responsible for their own actions? Please tell me so I can stop wasting your time. LOL
Are there frivolous lawsuits in this country? Heck yes, all the time. However, how many aren't? How do you automatically know the facts about this one? It bothers me that a bunch of grown adults who enjoy something so gentle, like taking pictures of trains, can be so cruel while claiming to be experts in railroad liability, legal procedures, and parenting.
Personally, I send my deepest regrets to the family of this child and the engineer of the train. I feel equally terrible for both of them. This was an awful accident that may have been preventable. I'll let a judge and jury determine that. Not a bunch web forum dwellers hiding behind their monitors.
Green Bay Paddlers wrote:Not a bunch web forum dwellers hiding behind their monitors.
Not a bunch web forum dwellers hiding behind their monitors.
Not all of us hide behind our monitors in real life. Some of us have plenty of experience.
Notwithstanding that, if you have read my posts, you know where I stand.
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