Continental European Railway Operations

[RudyRockvilleMD]

We are planning a trip to Europe in the fall. As a part of the trip we will take a cruise on the Danube River from Bucharest, Romania to Budapest, Hungary. Are there any restrictions on photographing trains or streetcars in Bucharest or Budapest from streets, parks, or railroad stations.?

[MStLfan]

As I related on another thread I went to the Deventer second hand book fair last sunday. I changed trains in Zwolle and saw the last 3 remaining cars of the Dutch / Swiss TEE trains, still in Ontario Northland / Northlander paint (yellow. light blue band and black Northlander on the nose).

In Deventer there was a steam train with 23.071 5 "blokkendozen" passenger cars (1920's former emu's) and diesel 2530, the last of 2400 class build by Alsthom and a one of a kind. It performed a shuttle service to Zutphen I think.

I had no photo equipment with me, darn!

Tonight the radio reported the arrival of the first GTW's from Stadler of Bussnang Switzerland for Arriva via Nieuweschans in the Netherlands. It will move to Leeuwarden and then to Groningen were it can be inspected. There is a photo contest till 15 september.

greetings,

Marc Immeker

 

[MStLfan]

Indeed that place is not ideal but all there is apparently. The alternative means backing up the train at the north lead in Beverwijk and make a run at / through the Velsertunnel.

On the other hand, not that many trains make use of this route so with creative scheduling it should be possible.

Remember, the steel works is located next to the sea. It's port for raw materials is ouside the canallocks. It's barge harbor is inside the locks. Most of it's production moves by sea or canal / river and truck.

greetings,

Marc Immeker

[beaulieu]

Thanks, Marc where do the trains run around? I guesed at Uitgeest station but that's hardly ideal. Given how busy most of the NS network is.

[MStLfan]

For those who lost tracks with the steel train twisting and turning through the Netherlands on avoiding tracks and freight rings.

First map is the part Uitgeest to Rotterdam. But for a small piece of track near the southeastern part of Amsterdam you can make this same trip by train. Second is from Rotterdam to Venlo at the border with Germany.

 

 

And the direct route from Beverwijk (station next to the steelworks, south of Uitgeest) to the border at Zevenaar / Emmerich:

All maps were taken from the website of NS, from its travel planner.

Note: there is a direct line south of Beverwijk via the Velsertunnel. The grade into the tunnel starts at the south and of Beverwijk station. Heavy freight trains do not use that route because they have trouble getting out of the tunnel.

greetings,

Marc Immeker

[beaulieu]

Are you sure you're not confusing Thalys and Eurostar. They're 2 seperate companies
Thalys (a maroon coloured train) is owned by SNCF, SNCB, NS & DB and runs Paris - Amsterdam and Clologne. Their web site is http://www.thalys.com and a route map can be found at
http://goeurope.about.com/od/traintravelineurope/ss/thalys_info.htm

Eurostar on the other hand (a yellow and cream coloured train) are owed by London & Continental Railways and run London - Paris, Brussels, Avignon and Bourge-Saint-Maurice (as far s I know it's only Franch crews that operate to these last destinations). Their website is http://www.eurostar.com (and it's not that great IMO, no company info at all) and a map is at http://goeurope.about.com/library/bl_eurostar_intro.htm

Both trains are TGV deriviatives and the cabs are almost the same. The difference is in the handling due to extra traction motors on the Eurostar which were required to operate in the Chunnel (A fully laden Eurostar with a dead power car must still be able to climb the steep gradients at the end of the tunnel).

Hugh, it is possible for a Thalys Driver to need to know 4 countries, France, Belgium, Netherlands, and Germany. Whether any do is another question. The last issue of Todays Railways Europe reports that both Eurostar and SNCF are running afoul of the new requirement to run a route at least once every six months to retain route knowledge. Trains have had to be annulled when problems closed the normal route and no Driver was rested and available with the required route knowledge for the diversion. Eurostar was quoted as saying that it was too expensive to keep a large number of Drivers current on all the possible diversions for use in emergencies only. Planned diversions for maintanence is different.

Separately freight is of course different from these, mostly speeds are too slow to require more than two countries. For example SBB Cargo on the container trains from Aachen (Belgium) runs Aachen to Mainz and change, Mainz to Offenburg and change, Offenburg to Arth Goldau or Basle(these are the only crews who need to know about Elke. Arth-Goldau to Bellinzona or Chiasso change and then into Italy.

[Hugh Jampton]

Are you sure you're not confusing Thalys and Eurostar. They're 2 seperate companies
Thalys (a maroon coloured train) is owned by SNCF, SNCB, NS & DB and runs Paris - Amsterdam and Clologne. Their web site is http://www.thalys.com and a route map can be found at
http://goeurope.about.com/od/traintravelineurope/ss/thalys_info.htm

Eurostar on the other hand (a yellow and cream coloured train) are owed by London & Continental Railways and run London - Paris, Brussels, Avignon and Bourge-Saint-Maurice (as far s I know it's only Franch crews that operate to these last destinations). Their website is http://www.eurostar.com (and it's not that great IMO, no company info at all) and a map is at http://goeurope.about.com/library/bl_eurostar_intro.htm

Both trains are TGV deriviatives and the cabs are almost the same. The difference is in the handling due to extra traction motors on the Eurostar which were required to operate in the Chunnel (A fully laden Eurostar with a dead power car must still be able to climb the steep gradients at the end of the tunnel).

[martin.knoepfel]

What do they do if the train goes to Cologne (Germany)? Do they change driver at Bruxelles? Dwell time would be sufficient to do so.

[Hugh Jampton]

It is 5% per additional system. In Beaulieus example, you have one system plus three more, makes 15% more. If an electric engine costs 3 million Euros, so it is 450 000 Euros more.

Swiss Federal Railways employs engineers working in Germany and Switzerland. They have to be certified for both countries and need two drivers' licences. I don't know of any engineers working in three countries except for the Thalys-trains which run from the UK (London) through France to Belgium (Brussels) without crew-changes.

You mean the Eurostar drivers. They have to know 4 different systems, English, French, Belgian and TVM430 (the in cab system used on the high speed lines). This is one of the reasons that these drivers are the highest paid in Europe at around £40,000 per year.

[martin.knoepfel]

It is 5% per additional system. In Beaulieus example, you have one system plus three more, makes 15% more. If an electric engine costs 3 million Euros, so it is 450 000 Euros more.

Swiss Federal Railways employs engineers working in Germany and Switzerland. They have to be certified for both countries and need two drivers' licences. I don't know of any engineers working in three countries except for the Thalys-trains which run from the UK (London) through France to Belgium (Brussels) without crew-changes.

[beaulieu]

The Hooters were also a 1980's Folk/Pop band from Philadelphia. That's enough of that.

Martin - I'm surprised about your 5% figure. I'd have expected this to be higher. A BLS 485, for instance, would need 3 seperate systems - Italian, Swiss and German. That must be a complicated installation unless there is a degree of commonality.  

That gets me wondering about a Basle based BLS driver. Would he or she have to learn three different signalling systems? I don't know how BLS crews work but even if there is a crew change at Basle and Brig drivers would need to be proficient on two systems. 

ERS, quotes the price of installing ETCS as 300,000 Euros per locomotive, not including extra costs for the protoype installation in the first of any model locomotive. The simpler systems are possibly cheaper.

The BLS drivers don't run north of Basle. South of the Simplon Tunnel to Domodossola and on the Luino line are Swiss, with the Italians doing the maintenance. And currently you need four systems for a freight locomotive to run from Germany to Italy, Indusi and Elke in Germany, Signum in Switzerland, and BACC? in Italy.  Elke is in use between Offenburg and Weil am Rhein only. BLS has been pooling one Re 485 with Railion Br 185s on freight from Germany to Italy. This may have stopped while the Re 485s are being fitted with ETCS, they have 5 leasers right now including a Railion Br 185.

[Simon Reed]

The Hooters were also a 1980's Folk/Pop band from Philadelphia. That's enough of that.

Martin - I'm surprised about your 5% figure. I'd have expected this to be higher. A BLS 485, for instance, would need 3 seperate systems - Italian, Swiss and German. That must be a complicated installation unless there is a degree of commonality.  

That gets me wondering about a Basle based BLS driver. Would he or she have to learn three different signalling systems? I don't know how BLS crews work but even if there is a crew change at Basle and Brig drivers would need to be proficient on two systems. 

   

[Hugh Jampton]

and the buttons and hooters / bells etc. need to be found a home in the cab. All in all it's just too much hassle

     Sorry to be irreverent, but on this side of the Atlantic, "hooters" has a whole different connotation.  What are hooters in a European locomotive?

Do they now?!?!?!

A hooter is a small horn type thingy..

[Murphy Siding]

and the buttons and hooters / bells etc. need to be found a home in the cab. All in all it's just too much hassle

     Sorry to be irreverent, but on this side of the Atlantic, "hooters" has a whole different connotation.  What are hooters in a European locomotive?

[martin.knoepfel]

A few years ago, I heard from locomotive manufacturers' side a rule of thumb: If you want to run a new multi-system electric engine (for example 25kv/25 Hz AC + 15 kv 16,7 Hz + 3 kV DC + 1,5 kV DC) under different signalling systems, add 5% for each signalling system you have to install.

[beaulieu]

Technically speaking they're not in cab signalling systems (the driver still gets the movement authority from lineside signals), they're train protection systems. These systems merely inform the driver that the signal ahead is either clear or restricting (by means of a bell or hooter or somesuch) and apply the brakes if the driver does not act appropriately. The cost of fitting these sytems to a train or loco is actualy minimal in terms of overall cost. The problem with retrofitting the equipment required (some sensor to pick up the information from the signalling system, a processing unit and some bits and pieces on the drivere's desk) is where the heck do you install it. The sensor needs to be mounted close to a bogie pivot point so that it remains above where the trackside equipment is at all times, even in curves. Some various syetems can use the same sensor, but not all of them. The processing units need to be located somewhere where they can be accessed for maintenance and not block any other equipment from the same, and the buttons and hooters / bells etc. need to be found a home in the cab. All in all it's just too much hassle

Your right of course Hugh, you also need to shield said equipment from the RFI signals generated by the modern vvvf 3-phase AC drives.

[Hugh Jampton]

Technically speaking they're not in cab signalling systems (the driver still gets the movement authority from lineside signals), they're train protection systems. These systems merely inform the driver that the signal ahead is either clear or restricting (by means of a bell or hooter or somesuch) and apply the brakes if the driver does not act appropriately. The cost of fitting these sytems to a train or loco is actualy minimal in terms of overall cost. The problem with retrofitting the equipment required (some sensor to pick up the information from the signalling system, a processing unit and some bits and pieces on the drivere's desk) is where the heck do you install it. The sensor needs to be mounted close to a bogie pivot point so that it remains above where the trackside equipment is at all times, even in curves. Some various syetems can use the same sensor, but not all of them. The processing units need to be located somewhere where they can be accessed for maintenance and not block any other equipment from the same, and the buttons and hooters / bells etc. need to be found a home in the cab. All in all it's just too much hassle

[beaulieu]

There is a faster way.

Rather than going via Woerden and Gouda to Rotterdam, this train goes on to Utrecht, Arnhem, Emmerich and to its destination, Hagen, just south of the Ruhr. This train hauls a lot of steel products and I think Hagen is used to collect and redistribute cars and trains from various steel producers.

I am not sure about the route south, probably via Siegen and Frankfurt to Mannheim and then along the Rhine. Might be a day faster. Especially since these trains run through with Russian build big diesels (formerly used in East Germany) and, at the most, change only a crew at Emmerich. Hagen will be the first point were classification can take place.

Marc, I looked at that possibility as I was aware of the solid trainloads into Germany. There is a website that lists the freight trains that operate in the Netherlands for all companies. The list is available here, it is an Acrobat file.

Dutch Freight List

To understand it you also need the abbreviations list here.

Abbreviation List

The list does not include what the Brits would call trip freights and what we in the US would call locals.

Marc, the only train south out of Hagen Vorhalle that might be the train you are looking for is
CSQ 50031 bound for Mannheim Rbf. That train is a possibility. If so it would still be a solid trainload from Corus, but it might break up at Mannheim. CSQ means a complete trainload for one customer moving under a quality guarantee.

Come to think about it, an increasing number of container trains run with these diesels as well from Rotterdam to Emmerich. They then can pass their Canadian competitors from ACTS, ERS etc.

greetings,

Marc Immeker

Darn, while typing this I just spotted the steel trains from Corus to Hagen. It didn't click for me that
Beverwijk is right next to the steel works and Corus used to be named Hoogovens, Duh.

Railion has been storing the Class 1600 electrics when they need major repairs, even though they are only middle-aged for electrics.

John Beaulieu

[beaulieu]

     John:  Thanks for your reply on the *typical * carload trip.  That was interesting.  It does raise a few questions. What are *avoiding tracks* and *freight rings*?  You mention the train changing power at The Netherlands border.  Is that due to changing to a different railroad, or to a differing electrical(?) system?  When the customs officials look over a train, what do they do/what are they checking?  -Thanks

Murphy to add one more thing to what Marc said, in addition to the change of electrical system there is also the problem of two different cab signal systems. For the locomotive to operate across the border it must not only be able to operate on both electrical systems, but also operate on both cab signal systems. In the case of the Hupac container train in the more recent posting, the locomotive would need to have 5 different cab signal systems in order to operate from Rotterdam to Novarra (or Milan). The cost of installing the 5 cab signal systems will nearly double the cost of the locomotive over just one system. The European Governments have committed to change this on the most important freight routes , but we are years from the date that the program will be completed. The reason the locomotive change is made at the Dutch border is due to the limitations of 1500v DC versus say at the Swiss border where a diesel must be switched for an electric because the Swiss tunnels aren't ventilated for diesels. Or if you are running an electric throughout the 1500v DC at the Dutch end limits locomotive power, while the 3000v DC at the Italian end does not. Ohm's Law rules.

[MStLfan]

As for freight rings: in the early days of German railroading there were various companies operating railnetworks in the area around Cologne and the Ruhr. After the Prussian state nationalised them and with the advent of industrialisation the network was rationalised and then a large number of lines became freight only. On the state owned network it was possible to go round on both freight lines and passenger lines iirc.

greetings,

Marc Immeker

[MStLfan]

Hi Murphy,

I'll try to answer your questions. First: there is a belt line around Amsterdam. This line crosses various lines going into Amsterdam Centraal Station. The connections from the belt line to the other lines are the avoiding tracks (there are more). At two places were the beltline and the line to Centraal Station cross (not on the level) there are stations with platforms on both lines. Amsterdam Sloterdijk and Duivendrecht. The connecting tracks (2) at Sloterdijk have a platform iirc. Duivendrecht may have a platform or it is slightly further along and server the Amsterdam Arena, home of soccer team Ajax.

The beltline is heavely used by passenger trains. Especially from Almere and Amersfoort via the south of Amsterdam to Schiphol airport. The airport area is a major employer, so lots of locals as well as longer distance intercity trains for travelers to the airport.

Dutch electrification is at 1500 v DC and Germany at 15000 v AC. Class 1600 can only operate under 1500v dc. Hence the change at the border.

As far as I know there are no regular customs checks at the border. Not since 1992 with the single market in the EU. There are frequently checks by carmen. A number of the 6400 class diesels are set up to operate into Germany. Several engineers from Railion NL have been trained to operate into the Ruhr area but I don't think they currently run that far. But that may have changed already, freight traffic is very dynamic these days. One a block train of this or that is run by company A and the next week by company B. A lot of customers are trying out the new kids on the block with regard to price and especially service.

 

[Murphy Siding]

     John:  Thanks for your reply on the *typical * carload trip.  That was interesting.  It does raise a few questions. What are *avoiding tracks* and *freight rings*?  You mention the train changing power at The Netherlands border.  Is that due to changing to a different railroad, or to a differing electrical(?) system?  When the customs officials look over a train, what do they do/what are they checking?  -Thanks

[MStLfan]

That part about SBB Cargo setting up its own network for carload traffic is very interesting.

Not long ago an independent switching company started in Rotterdam: Rotterdam Rail Feeding. With the Betuweroute SBB Cargo can get relatively into Rotterdam. Maybe it will get interesting on the carload front too!

By the way Mittelweserbahn and others already operate a small network of carload trains under the name of Ecco-cargo. Are they cooperating partners of SBB or is only HGK (Hafen und Gueterverkehr Koeln) a partner? HGK already has a license to operate trains here in the Netherlands.

greetings,

Marc Immeker

[beaulieu]

As an interesting comparison, a human could do basically the same trip - Amsterdam to Milan following roughly the same route but using a section of high-speed line in Germany - in about 12.5 hours with just one change of train at Basel (a 15 minute connection).

The road distance between Amsterdam and Milan is about 1100km, so assuming a trucker is driving the maximum of 9 hours per day allowed in the EU and most of the route is motorway/autobahn/autoroute, they could probably do the trip in 2 days.

It certainly points up the rail versus road freight competition issues......anyone know the relative rail and truck shipping costs ?

Tony

(If you're interested in international passenger journey times in Europe, the DB online timetable is quite good - http://www.db.de/site/bahn/en/start.html )

True, but unfortunately as outsiders we cannot see why there is a need to sort the car so many times. It could be because there just isn't enough volume from Kijfhoek to Italy or it could be because Railion just wants to handle all the traffic via Gremberg.

One important thing has changed in just the last few months. Railion has announced that they will no longer use the SBB to move carload traffic from Germany to Italy (I presume this also means all carload traffic from north of the German-Swiss border. Railion intends to sort all this  traffic at its humpyard in Mannheim, and then move it across Switzerland in Railion trains. In a German  logistics magazine a major shipper expressed scepticism that Mannheim would be able to handle the additional volume. I believe that Railion made this move solely as a retaliation against SBB Cargo's success in winning traffic in Germany. If this is their motivation I think that it won't be long before they regret this move. SBB Cargo is a nimble highly focused operation and it didn't take them too long to respond to this attempt by Railion to undercut the basis of the Swiss carload network. No pin to jab at the German's big hide, instead they have chosen to drive a spear back into Railion. What SBB Cargo has announced is that they are setting up their own carload network for German traffic and Scandanavian traffic off of the carferries at Lubeck and Rostock. They intend to cherry pick the best of Railion's carload traffic in a big way. Hopefully Railion will come to its senses in time, because SBB Cargo's action could topple the economics of major portions  of the German (Dutch too!) carload networks. At least the  Swiss followed a favorite axiom of mine, when you need to talk to a donkey its best to break a 2x4 across its forehead to make sure you have its undivided attention. No boiling frogs for them.

Tony, a better comparison to the trucker would be to look at say a Hupac Intermodal train from Rotterdam RSC to Novarra Boschetto (unfortunately none of their Rotterdam trains run to their Milan terminal). The shorter distance at the beginning is compensated at the end because the train is routed via Chiasso. Hupac's schedule says drop your container off by 2:00pm Monday in Rotterdam, and you can pick it up in Novarra at 6:00 am Wednesday, which doesn't seem too bad. What you the customer do not see, is how hard Rail4Chem and Noord Cargo work to make that happen. First the train doesn't depart Rotterdam until 6:20pm., The slack time belongs to Hupac. Next the train has to make a stop at Ede-Wageningen for Hupac, so the train has to run north through Rotterdam,thence to Utrecht and on to Ede-Wageningen. It stands at Ede-Wageningen for an hour and ten minutes while they add more containers. It reaches Emmerich at 10:15 pm. After border formalities and an engine change it departs, my next timing point is at Remagen just south of Bonn at 1:27am. It is scheduled to arrive at Basel Muttenz at 9:08 am, 13 hours 48 minutes after leaving Rotterdam, and only 12 hours and 38 minutes of running time. Chiasso is scheduled for 5:02 pm. less than 23 hours out of Rotterdam. Unfortunately I don't have timetables for Italy.

John Beaulieu

[martin.knoepfel]

The lounge cars on the Rolling Highway are former sleepers, some being of German origin.  They have been repainted. Before, the Rolling Highway used former Swiss "sleepers".

The Rolling Highway hauls tractors and trailers. It survives only because it is more heavily subsidised than unacompanied combined traffid (trailers or containers). This is a political decision. Subsidies come from the taxpayers, although trucks have to pay a heave-load-tax in Switzerland and in some other countries. In Germany, for example, the tax is limited to highways (and some other roads), while in Switzerland, it is general. In France and Italy, you have to pay for using highways, there are toll-gates. I thing, France wants to introduce a Rolling Highway too. A few years ago, the Germans tried it to avoid congestion in the Munich area, but the trains were discontinued after a few months because of insufficient patronage.

The cars for the semi-trucks need have very small wheels and two bogies with IIRC four or five axles each. Otherwise, the roll-on-roll-off-design would be impossible within the small European lauding-gauges. (Small by US standards.) The cars for the semi-trucks have special couplers incompatible with other rolling-stock. The trains of the Rolling Highway have special end-cars, equipped with hook-and-chain-couplers. The lounge-cars kept the hook-and-chain-couplers.
Early designs of the cars for the semi-trucks very difficult in braking. Rumors even go they had to regularly stop and take a break to let the brakes cool down on the Gotthard-Route.

However, there is another competition for railroads that has not yet been mentioned: Shipping goods round the Peninsula of Spain  and Portugal. I recently read an article on Swiss Federal Railways' Cargo Division winning a steel-contract from Germany to Italy. The last competitor in the bidding-process offered to ship the steel from Germany to a port on the North Sea - I don't know whether they wanted to go by rail, truck or barge - on an ocean-going-ship to a an Italian port in the  Mediterranean Sea and from there to the destination in Northern Italy. Last leg most probably by truck.

[MStLfan]

     What would the *typical*(?) trip be like for a car of freight moving from the Netherlands to Italy be like?  It would seem like borders,interchanges,differing signals, engine changes, etc...would make it very challenging?

Ok, Murphy I'll give it a try. It'll be my story so I get to set it up, within your guidelines. I'll also try not to make the story too long. If you are familiar with Google Earth I will provide coordinates for some of the locations but not all send me a private e-mail if you want more coordinates. Let's make this a story about a carload of standard steel I-beams. Let's say that steel distributor Rampi located at Via Filippo Da Desio 42, 20032 Desio,  Italy needs some I-beams for stock and Corus Steel in Ijmuiden, Netherlands gives him the best price and availability. Plug the street address and town for Rampi into Google Earth to look at their facility (high resolution), plug Ijmuiden, Netherlands into Google Earth, zoom back out to about 20,000 feet and look up just across the ship canal to see the Corus Steelworks (low res). The I-beams would most likely be loaded onto a Railion owned railcar similiar to this Res.
The train would be powered by either a Class 1600 5900 hp. B-B electric built in the '80s by Alstom or a pair of Class 6400 1450hp B-B diesel-electrics built by MaK in the late '80s- early '90s. The train would depart the steelworks and because of the track layout would have to go north to somewhere beyond Uitgeest and the run around its train. The it would come back through Zaandam, take the tunnel under the ship canal and pass through Amsterdam Centraal station (not done at peak commuter times, but does happen during the day), All trains from and to the Corus works must pass through Amsterdam Centraal. Going east to the Amsterdam Rail Ring and then turn south. Then take the avoiding line at Duivendrecht and head east towards Utrecht.

There is a faster way.

Rather than going via Woerden and Gouda to Rotterdam, this train goes on to Utrecht, Arnhem, Emmerich and to its destination, Hagen, just south of the Ruhr. This train hauls a lot of steel products and I think Hagen is used to collect and redistribute cars and trains from various steel producers.

I am not sure about the route south, probably via Siegen and Frankfurt to Mannheim and then along the Rhine. Might be a day faster. Especially since these trains run through with Russian build big diesels (formerly used in East Germany) and, at the most, change only a crew at Emmerich. Hagen will be the first point were classification can take place.

Come to think about it, an increasing number of container trains run with these diesels as well from Rotterdam to Emmerich. They then can pass their Canadian competitors from ACTS, ERS etc.

greetings,

Marc Immeker

[Simon Reed]

The cars are open.

A lounge car is provided on the train but is optional - having said that, there's a lounge car on the BLS Lotschberg rolling road but I'm not sure about the Gotthard.

There'd be no access between trucks and lounge car whilst the train was in motion so you make your choice when you drive onto the train.

From observation I'd say that the majority of drivers elect to stay in their cabs, where at least they are guaranteed a peaceful place to sleep.

[Kevin C. Smith]

Hupac also operates 6 Rolling Highway trains per day over the Gotthard route from Basle and Schaffhausen on the north to Lugano on the south, these trains offer drive on and drive off ability for semi-trucks allowing truck drivers to rest while the train is moving and complying with hours of driving regulations.

I'm curious about these-are these open or enclsed cars for the semi-trucks? Do the drivers ride in their cabs or a seperate car? If they are in a rider car, do they have access to their trucks while en route? If they are in their cabs, do they have access from them?

[owlsroost]

As an interesting comparison, a human could do basically the same trip - Amsterdam to Milan following roughly the same route but using a section of high-speed line in Germany - in about 12.5 hours with just one change of train at Basel (a 15 minute connection).

The road distance between Amsterdam and Milan is about 1100km, so assuming a trucker is driving the maximum of 9 hours per day allowed in the EU and most of the route is motorway/autobahn/autoroute, they could probably do the trip in 2 days.

It certainly points up the rail versus road freight competition issues......anyone know the relative rail and truck shipping costs ?

Tony

(If you're interested in international passenger journey times in Europe, the DB online timetable is quite good - http://www.db.de/site/bahn/en/start.html )

[beaulieu]

     What would the *typical*(?) trip be like for a car of freight moving from the Netherlands to Italy be like?  It would seem like borders,interchanges,differing signals, engine changes, etc...would make it very challenging?

Ok, Murphy I'll give it a try. It'll be my story so I get to set it up, within your guidelines. I'll also try not to make the story too long. If you are familiar with Google Earth I will provide coordinates for some of the locations but not all send me a private e-mail if you want more coordinates. Let's make this a story about a carload of standard steel I-beams. Let's say that steel distributor Rampi located at Via Filippo Da Desio 42, 20032 Desio,  Italy needs some I-beams for stock and Corus Steel in Ijmuiden, Netherlands gives him the best price and availability. Plug the street address and town for Rampi into Google Earth to look at their facility (high resolution), plug Ijmuiden, Netherlands into Google Earth, zoom back out to about 20,000 feet and look up just across the ship canal to see the Corus Steelworks (low res). The I-beams would most likely be loaded onto a Railion owned railcar similiar to this Res.
The train would be powered by either a Class 1600 5900 hp. B-B electric built in the '80s by Alstom or a pair of Class 6400 1450hp B-B diesel-electrics built by MaK in the late '80s- early '90s. The train would depart the steelworks and because of the track layout would have to go north to somewhere beyond Uitgeest and the run around its train. The it would come back through Zaandam, take the tunnel under the ship canal and pass through Amsterdam Centraal station (not done at peak commuter times, but does happen during the day), All trains from and to the Corus works must pass through Amsterdam Centraal. Going east to the Amsterdam Rail Ring and then turn south. Then take the avoiding line at Duivendrecht and head east towards Utrecht. Before we get to Utrecht our freight is diverted south at Breukelen on the avoiding line towards Woerden and then Gouda (say cheese). There is no avoiding Rotterdam so our train runs down the double track mainline into Rotterdam Centraal station, there is a single track for freight right through the middle of the station platforms. South out of the station its four tracks into the tunnel under the river Maass. Coming up on the other side we pass through Rotterdam Zuid station, past a small freight yard and then come to the junction with the freight line running to the various sections of the Port of Rotterdam on our right. Going south through a flying junction the double track port line joins our line just before Barendrecht station and suddenly we have a 9 track mainline to Kijfhoek Yard, the 6 passenger tracks pass down the west side of the yard while the 3 freight tracks enter the yard. Kijfhoek Yard is an Ultramodern built in the Nineties, and is equipped with three sets of retarders leading to each track in the bowl (many humpyards only have two sets). Further all the bowl tracks have mechanical mules located between the rails to trim the cars without the need for switch engine to enter the bowl. If our car left the steelworks in the afternoon it should end its first day at Kijfhoek Yard. If there are no problems it should depart Kijfoek behind a Class 1600 electric on train FE 45713 at 5:55 am., pass Eindhoven at 7:14am. and reach Venlo (the border) at 7:58am. The locomotive is change and customs cleared the train is scheduled to depart at 9:43am behind a Railion Class 185 electric. The route reaches the Ruhr at Oberhausen and joins the Freight Ring and heads south for Cologne and Gremberg Yard which is reached at about noon. Again over the hump and the end of Day 2. Day 3 sees the car departing Gremberg Yard at about 10:00am. on train FE 44613 down the east bank of the Rhine, passing Linz at 10:15am, and St. Goarshausen at 11:08am., and Freiberg at 05:00pm. arrival at Basel Muttenz Yard is scheduled for 6:59pm. Yet again over the hump. From here it becomes a real guess train 44005 due out of Muttenz Yard at 03:15am. is a good possibility. If so its over the Bozberg to Brugg at 03:59am. Rotkreuz at 4:36am. It arrives at Erstfeld at 05:23am for a crew change. Power is booked as 1 Re 620 B-B-B electric rated at 10,500 hp. and 1 Re 420 B-B electric rated at 6300hp. At Erstfeld a helper is added and it departs at 05:36am across the Gotthard Pass. Goschenen is reached at 06:04am and the helper is dropped and a brake test made. Through the tunnel and down through the spiral tunnels to Bellinzona San Paolo Yard at 07:25am, Lugano at 08:15am and arrival at Chiasso (the border) at 08:41am. After being switched over the mini-hump at Chiasso the SBB would probably deliver the car to the customer in Desio using a Class Am 840 diesel on the afternoon of the fourth day using its rights as an Open Access operator in Italy. The steel customers around the Greater Milan area were a prime target since Trenitalia usually took two days to get cars from Chiasso to customers in the Desio area less than 25 miles away.