Continental European Railway Operations

[martin.knoepfel]

@marc: What will the Belgians do if the Netherlands go to 25kV / 50 Hz AC. They are in between the two countries and rely actually on 3kV DC?

The French TGV-lines have 25 kV / 50 Hz AC, but at least the first-generation-TGVs are able to operate under 1,5 kV DC too. They have to to get into Gare du Midi (South Station) in Paris and into many other towns. Some TGVs run under three systems (15 kV 16,7 Hz too)

From my office-window, I can see regularly unit-tank-trains running through Weinfelden, as well as unit-gravel-trains.

[MStLfan]

After northeastern France it was northern France. The line from Dunkerque towards the coal and steel region in the northeast is / was in use as a supply line of iron ore and steel products the other way.

After the success of these electrifications all new electrifications have been 25 kv / 50 Hz with, maybe, the exeption of some lines in the southwest that connected to the older 1500 v dc electrification. If I remember correctly everthing north and east of the line Le Havre - Paris - Marseille is 25 kv / 50 Hz and the rest 1500 v dc with the exeption of some recently electrified lines with TGV traffic (dedicated line from Paris in the direction of Bordeaux as well as existing lines like those in Bretagne).

And with the TGV coming to the Netherlands we are now also on the bandwagon of 25 kv / 50 hz. If or when the rest of the Netherlands, apart from the high speed line to the south and the Betuweroute freigth line to the east, changes over is not clear. All new equipment of the last 10 years or so is prepared but it will cost a lot of money.

greetings,

Marc Immeker

[martin.knoepfel]

In France, the first 25kV-50 Hz electrification was from Metz to Thionville in Eastern France. Mostly coal trains with steeple-cab-electrics (4 and 6 axles). At least one of the small electrics survived in
Luxemburg, although actually not in operable condition. Luxemburg had most of its mainlines electrified with 25 kv / 50 Hz and bought engines (and EMUs) of French design.

The first 50 Hz electrification on a larger scale was in Hungary in the 1920s. The locomotives were designed by Kalman Kando and converted single phase AC (50 Hz) to three-phase AC. I don't know the voltage, but it was lower than 25 kV. Test-electrifications with 50 Hz 22kV existed in Germany in the thirties. IIRC, at least one Kando-boxcab exists in a museum, but there is no railroad left it could operate on because after WW II, Hungary converted the electrified mainlines to 25 kV.

Here is a link to a model of a Kando-engine. They existed in a version with six driving and no trailing axles too.

www.deakmodellsport.hu/0de.html

[daveklepper]

If I remember correctly, the first 25,000V 50Hz AC electrification was in France for coal trains, some 45 years ago.

[MStLfan]

      It seems that most of the discussion on this thread is about passenger traffic, and merchandise traffic-containers and such.  Is there a lot of coal and grain hauled by trains on the continent as well?

Murphy, here are some observations on unit train movements from my vantagepoint:

Agricultural: it depends on such factors as the EU buying overproduction and then having to find places to store this so called intervention grain before it is sold. The old NS Cargo seems to have had a negative attitude to some types of cargo as well as service problems so they more or less abandoned this traffic. Currently Rail4chem are delivering 1 or 2 grain trains to an elevator in Rotterdam where before the elevator could not get reliable service from NS Cargo / Railion. Much of the agricutural stuff moves relative short distances from storage areas near farms to processing plants by truck. An interesting move is potatoes from Coevorden (on the eastern border with Germany) to various places in Europe including Russia in reefers (to keep them from freezing). There used to be widespread movement of sugarbeets from farms to refineries by train (and steamtram in earlier days as well) but this has gone to trucks in most of Europe, certainly in the Netherlands and Germany. There is some bulk sugar movement to the Eemshaven in the north for export overseas.

Coal: EECV in Rotterdam Europoort are extending their coal storage area. They now move some 5 million tons of coal, half by barge and half by rail. This is goiing to double in the coming years. The 25 million tons of ore move exclusively by barge to a steelworks of their owner in the Ruhr area.

Coal is increasing mostly because the remaining German coal mines are going to be closed. Many more powerplants not located near the Rhine or a canal will need to import their coal from somewhere but mostly from overseas (South Africa and Colombia).

Of course, rail traffic in the Netherlands isn't helped by having a large steelworks right on the North Sea coast (Corus IJmuiden). It does get its limestone from Belgium by the trainload though. Another limestone product moves from Belgium to Veendam in the north where it is used in making firebrick.

Remember this: the hart of Europe with most of the consumers are located within 500 to 800 km from the major seaports Rotterdam, Hamburg, Antwerp, Bremen or Le Havre. This means that most distribution is by truck. Rotterdam and Antwerp have good connections for barges via the Rhine and branches / tributaries. Hamburg, Bremen and Le Havre are less well situated on the Elbe, Weser and Seine respectively with regard to moving freight by barge.

Last saturday I was in an old medieval city called Zaltbommel which is situated on the river Waal (a branch of the Rhine, the busiest branch in fact) and in 15 minutes I saw 2 coal ships and 3 Rhine ships with containers. Two of them had around 200 teu (twenty foot equivalent units) whereas the longest container trains in the Netherlands are currently limited to 99 teu on 33 18 meter long 4 axle cars...

Scrap metal often moves by barge but also by train. Scrap wood is currently going by the trainload from Roosendaal in the Netherlands to a particleboard maker in Italy, several times a week. Ten years ago there was overproduction of aluminum. Every free place in the harbor of Rotterdam was full of the stuff. It arrived by train and ship and a few years later it was gone, some of it by train. Occasionally you can see unit trains of aluminum, copper and of course frequently steel in its various forms.

Some creative scheduling is done with autocarriers. Peugeot cars from France arrive in Oosterhout in the south of the Netherlands. The empties are moved to either Rotterdam or Amsterdam for loading Japanese cars and are send to various destinations in Europe and then move empty to France.

Often it is a matter of seeing possibilities and finding the right customer with a particular need.

A few years ago the remains of a hurricane came over Europe. The resulting number of downed trees are still being moved by rail across Germany to various paper making companies. This traffic hardly existed before and several new open access companies are running these trains.

What is a waste for some is a sourcw for others. ACTS moves waste plastic from a recycling center to a chemical plant in Germany. Fly ash from a German powerplant is used in making gypsum by a company in Delfzijl in the north of the Netherlands, 1 train a week I think.

greetings,

Marc Immeker

[beaulieu]

      It seems that most of the discussion on this thread is about passenger traffic, and merchandise traffic-containers and such.  Is there a lot of coal and grain hauled by trains on the continent as well?

Murphy, European Railways are cursed by many of the countries like the Netherlands, Belgium, France, and parts of Germany, having well developed canal systems. With the barge operators not having to pay to build or maintain the canals, merely fuel costs, the railways handle bulk items only to areas not served by the canals. There are some shorthaul movements of coal from the barge terminals in the Ruhr to various customers, and some long distance flows of Coal and Iron Ore. Most German coal-burning powerplants are located at minemouth, so their rail haul is just a short distance industrial type operation. There is movement of Coal and Iron Ore to the Saar region of Germany from Rotterdam, in the Netherlands. This area is not well served by canals due to the hilly terrain.

In the last few years this is beginning to change for the better grades of coal used in steel making. German and French mines for this grade of coal are mined out, so most of it is coming from Southern Poland, in the area of Katowice. Because this area lacks canals, the railways are now running 5 to 6 trains per day of this coal or coke (some is converted before shipment) to the Ruhr. The route of this trains is via the border at Horka, then Halle, Nordhausen, Kassel, and then Hamm. Some grain does move in trainload lots, but the barges get most of this. The recent European Bulls move mentioned by Marc, is notable. Perhaps with Open Access, there will be more movement of Grain by rail over longer distances. Some specialty grains do move in carload trains.

One thing that may help the railways for coal hauling in Germany in the future, is that most German coal now being mined is low quality Lignite like that mined in North Dakota, the Germans are starting to import more coal from Russia and further away, there is some potential for the railways to compete since some of the largest power plants were built near the old mines and not on the canals. The largest coal flow for power generation right now, is from the port of Bremerhaven to the Lahde powerstation near Minden.

[Murphy Siding]

      It seems that most of the discussion on this thread is about passenger traffic, and merchandise traffic-containers and such.  Is there a lot of coal and grain hauled by trains on the continent as well?

[martin.knoepfel]

25 years ago, the first French High-Speed-ROW (TGV) from Paris suburbs to Lyon suburbs  went into service. The trainsets can run at 155 mph. The newest TGV-ROW to the east of France will be good for 220 mph-running. Thanks to the TGV, many cities came within commuter-distance to Paris, for example Lille in Northern France. On the other side, building the TGV-ROWs and runnig the high-speed-trains syphoned off so many francs or euro there is little left for the rest of the network, because not all the TGV-connections make a profit. (Paris-Lyon does.) The new TGV-ROW to the east is in part a politcal project, because the east of France is a kind of French rust-belt.

As to freight. SBB Cargo, the Cargo-division of the Swiss Federal Railways, hauls new cars from Zeebrügge (Belgium) - mostly Toyotas - and Rotterdam to a distribution-center in Switzerland. For a the trains from Zebrügge, the team with B-Cargo which runs the trains from there to Aachen (Germany). SBB Cargo however has responsability for on-time-arrival. Before, four different railroads took care of the trains which resulted in lower service-quality

[beaulieu]

<snipped>

If I remember correctly Voith will contract out the actual construction as they make only hydraulic equipment.

This site has links to manufacturers:

http://www.eisenbahn-kurier.de/service/links/links_hersteller.html

greetings,

Marc Immeker

Marc, Voith is now building their own locomotives, since they feel that Vossloh is moving away from emphasising Voith hydraulic transmissions. Voith is really digging at Vossloh, as their new plant is located in Kiel just a few kilometers from the Vossloh plant, and is being managed by a former Vossloh manager and using some former Vossloh employees. Also at Innotrans, Voith announced two or three smaller locomotives desinged to give them a complete line including switching locomotives. Interesting that Voith chose a Belgian diesel for their 40CC locomotive, the thought is that they are trying for the B-Cargo order.

Did you see the announcement at Innotrans, that Mitsui Rail Capital Europe (MRCE) bought Dispolok Gmbh from Siemens AG? This gives MRCE
a huge fleet of modern locomotives for lease in Europe. On top of that they have given both Siemens and Bombardier large orders for further locomotives to be delivered over the next few years.

[MStLfan]

The InnoTrans exhibition in Berlin has just finished and it looks like we might get a horspower race here in Europe with new 4000 hp locomotives.

Eisenbahn Kurier has this link with pictures:

http://www.eisenbahn-kurier.de/aktuell/news_innotrans_2006.html

Check under Voith and Vossloh.

If I remember correctly Voith wil contract out the actual construction as the make only hydraulic equipment.

This site has links to manufacturers:

http://www.eisenbahn-kurier.de/service/links/links_hersteller.html

greetings,

Marc Immeker

[MStLfan]

I think that here in the Netherlands all steam engines are on the register as a historic object. I am surprised that they can get away with it in England to modify the cab. Isn't it easier to make a platform rather than modify a steam loco cab (especially with such small loco's)?

greetings,

Marc Immeker

[martin.knoepfel]

Today, newspaper reported Märklin model-railroad-manufacturer is up 4 % on sales in the first two quartes of 2006. In May, Märklin was sold to financial-investor Kingsbridge.

On the other side, Lehmann, manufacturer of LGG Garden  Trains,  sought protection against. I t seems to be a kind of chapter-11-procedurde.

[Tulyar15]

Talking of hot water, and steam, I gather from an article in "Steam Railway" that as many as 50 0-6-0T's survive in use as industrial switchers in the former Yugoslav republics. Most of these are post WW2 copies of the US Army 0-6-0T (Class 'USA' on the Southern Railway in England!) but a few are genuine ex-US Army ones.

The group who imported one of these locos to Britain a few years ago have just imported another one, which has just been overhauled. They plant to modify its cab to make it accessible for wheel chair bound people.

[martin.knoepfel]

Here a funny story. There is a lot of water pouring out of the Lötschberg-Tunnel. The railroad-tunnel is to be opened in 2007. The water is 18 to 22 degrees Celsius. Now, the Swiss environmental-laws set a limit to heating up rivers or creeks by warm water flowing into them: 0,5 degrees Celsius. (That causes  problems for nuclear power plants during hot summers, too.) The water from the Lötschberg-Tunnel would exceed this limit. So it will be used to cultivate tropical fruits at Frutigen on the north grade of the Lötschberg Railway and to cultivate sturgeons.

[martin.knoepfel]

I'll try to find out, but I cannot promise a result. IMHO, it is very probable becaus Bussnang is located next to Weinfelden, where my office is. At Bussnang, Stadlerrail has a plant that manufactures GTW EMUs and DMUs.

@beaulieu. I'll try to find the artice in the "Tages-Anzeiger" of last Friday, but only next week.

Last sunday, Swiss sunday-newspapers reported SBB Cargo and BLS Cargo mulled merger. The project was not known until last sunday and was abortes. It became clear and obvious, the Swiss Competition Commission would never approve such a merger since the two carriers would have more than 90 % market-share in Switzerland.

[beaulieu]

Politicians in Switzerland are questioning SBB Cargo's strategy in expanding into Germany and Italy. Not good. There are some suggestions for rapproachment with DB, I can see the EU not liking that one bit.
The customers won't be happy either.

[beaulieu]

Friday afternoon, a set of four Arrivas ran through Weinfelden. I saw them from the office, but was to late for the foto. Most probably, it was a test-train before those arrivas were accepted by the carrier.

Were these something new from Stadler for Arriva's Dutch rail operations?

[martin.knoepfel]

Friday afternoon, a set of four Arrivas ran through Weinfelden. I saw them from the office, but was to late for the foto. Most probably, it was a test-train before those arrivas were accepted by the carrier.

[beaulieu]

One thing that has caused problems for all European Railways is the boom and bust cycle for locomotive orders, the national railways seemed to place a large order and completely renew either the electric or diesel fleet over a few years and then no further order for 15 to 20 years, that makes it hard for the builders to survive. Hopefully with the rise of the new Open Access operators this cycle will be broken and some fleet renewal will be constantly undertaken.

John Beaulieu

[beaulieu]

It would be interesting to know how large the market is for mainline diesel locos in Europe - with increasing electrification, DMU's for passenger traffic and EMD's inroads into the freight diesel market I wonder what's left for the local manufacturers......

The DB fleet and the B-Cargo fleet are the last ones needing replacement in the old EU, outside of perhaps Portugal (tiny fleet).

DB is going to need some diesels no matter what happens, there are productive freight areas in Bayern, and Schlieswig-Holstein that aren't planned for electrification at this time. The Russian diesels won't last forever. A greater need is to replace the "Rabbits" Class 218s on passenger duties, the Class 66 isn't really suitable for this.

B-Cargo just can't seem to make up its mind, they need both some new heavy freight diesels and new freight electrics. If they would electrify the short remaining section of the Montzen line they could get by with fewer diesels, but they will still need some, sets of the smaller Class 7700s can do the job but must be more costly.

I suspect the most likely partner that would be interested in keeping the Vossloh loco business going might be Far Eastern or Chinese - another European supplier might be more interested in buying it's market share i.e. closing it down.

Tony

My thoughts exactly, there are too many suppliers and none of them can make an adequate return on their investment. But locomotive builders are seen as a national asset so they are subsidized.

John Beaulieu

[owlsroost]

It would be interesting to know how large the market is for mainline diesel locos in Europe - with increasing electrification, DMU's for passenger traffic and EMD's inroads into the freight diesel market I wonder what's left for the local manufacturers......

I suspect the most likely partner that would be interested in keeping the Vossloh loco business going might be Far Eastern or Chinese - another European supplier might be more interested in buying it's market share i.e. closing it down.

Tony

[beaulieu]

Do you think that they are already feeling the heat from the new Voith locomotive? I can't imagine who would be interested in partnering with them. Alstom isn't strong enough, they sold their Spanish factory to Vossloh in order to be allowed to receive financial assistance from the French Government. Bombardier is struggling. Siemens is reportedly looking to sell its Dispolok subsidiary due to inadequate returns. And anyway Siemens made a mess of MaK the first time they owned it. Maybe Russia would be interested, or perhaps the Chinese. EMD and GE from the USA would be leery of the Unions.

[MStLfan]

MaK wants to sell its loco-building division. They argue they are too small a competitor in this business. I wonder who will buy it.

I heard that a disgruntled stockholder was pushing the idea, hard to believe since they have a majority of the diesel market in most of Europe right now, but I can see a downturn coming for diesel purchases unless DB finally decides to place an order. I would sure hate to see Siemens buy them again.

From the Vossloh press release:

Locomotive business with value appreciation potential through strategic alliances
The Locomotives business unit, with the two production locations in Kiel and Valencia, will, according to the project deliverables, be developed through strategic alliances. The strategic analysis confirms that, following the integration of the Spanish operations and the restructuring in Kiel, the business unit is, as European market leader, very well positioned for sustained profitability. Despite this fundamentally favorable situation, it has become evident that Vossloh alone can only inadequately exploit the existing value enhancement potential and growth opportunities of its Locomotives business unit. Accordingly, the financial benchmarks set for Vossloh’s core businesses are unachievable within the foreseeable future. Efforts are now being undertaken to realize growth and value enhancement potentials in the company of strategic partners and hence further sharpen the competitive edge enjoyed by Vossloh Locomotives.

Full press release:

http://www.vossloh.de/fs_cms/en/press/press_releases/Press_release_271.html

I always wondered why they bought it. It seems that they (Vossloh as a group) are too small for development and services that are needed by railroad companies.

greetings,

Marc Immeker

[beaulieu]

Maybe DB are waiting for the Betuweroute to open before placing new orders? A lot of class 6400's may become surplus and moved to Germany.

There are some 20 class 6400 diesellocomotives surplus. Railion Nederland are now leasing them to others. Three class 6400's are being leased to Railpro (6401-6403+6504, not 6404 which is in red). 6504 has been repainted.

See this link:

http://forum.rolandrail.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1771&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=20

There are, these last few weeks, a large number of these locomotives at the Nedtrain Cargo Support workshop here in Rotterdam. Sometimes up to 12 (=10%). Quit a few have been standing around for weeks.

greetings,

Marc Immeker

I think there are a lot of reasons why DB hasn't bought yet, with the biggest two being Railion hasn't been making any money. And DB has been trying to dress up its balance sheet in order to privatize the company. Also I don't think prior to this year DB thought it was going to need very many diesel locomotives in the future. the Lubeck line is being electrified, there is talk that the Munich - Lindau line may be electrified, and freight had been somewhat stagnant. Now freight traffic has surged and DB is caught short. I heard that out of service RN 6400s were to be shopped by Nedtrain prior to going to Germany to replace DB Class 202 switchers, not directly, the 6400s were to become DB 264 series locomotives and would replace Class 294s which in turn would replace the 202s in eastern assignments.

[MStLfan]

Maybe DB are waiting for the Betuweroute to open before placing new orders? A lot of class 6400's may become surplus and moved to Germany.

There are some 20 class 6400 diesellocomotives surplus. Railion Nederland are now leasing them to others. Three class 6400's are being leased to Railpro (6401-6403+6504, not 6404 which is in red). 6504 has been repainted.

See this link:

http://forum.rolandrail.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1771&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=20

There are, these last few weeks, a large number of these locomotives at the Nedtrain Cargo Support workshop here in Rotterdam. Sometimes up to 12 (=10%). Quit a few have been standing around for weeks.

greetings,

Marc Immeker

[beaulieu]

MaK wants to sell its loco-building division. They argue they are too small a competitor in this business. I wonder who will buy it.

I heard that a disgruntled stockholder was pushing the idea, hard to believe since they have a majority of the diesel market in most of Europe right now, but I can see a downturn coming for diesel purchases unless DB finally decides to place an order. I would sure hate to see Siemens buy them again.

[martin.knoepfel]

MaK wants to sell its loco-building division. They argue they are too small a competitor in this business. I wonder who will buy it.

[beaulieu]

A neutral switching service should work.

I Germany and Austria there is a small but growing network of loos car trains operating under the banner of ECCO Cargo. If you google it you get the website of various rail operators who participate (German language only I think).

This link has a map:

http://www.mittelweserbahn.de/gueterverkehr/ecco-cargo.html

greetings,

Marc Immeker

Maybe, but its easy to do on a small scale, much harder on a large scale.

[MStLfan]

A neutral switching service should work.

I Germany and Austria there is a small but growing network of loos car trains operating under the banner of ECCO Cargo. If you google it you get the website of various rail operators who participate (German language only I think).

This link has a map:

http://www.mittelweserbahn.de/gueterverkehr/ecco-cargo.html

greetings,

Marc Immeker

[owlsroost]

I suspect to really make it work you'd need a neutral switching operator - a Conrail/BRC/IHB etc equivalent.

I wonder how many of the open-access operators are really that interested in running a network of 'loose car' train services - I suspect it's a nightmare to control the switching and local transfer costs, compared to running unit trains from A to B.

Tony