Who cares if passenger rail disappears ?

[mudchicken]

jGoose:

(1) Santa Fe wasn't into train-off issues and almost did not surrender their trains to Amthrax . Pride couldn't ease the damage caused by the loss of postal biz to trucks. (like D&RGW, we were good at running short, fast trains / passenger or freight.)

(2) The front range bypass issue (get yor facts straight and ditch the conjecture & heresay) - both are wrong. It's not a new issue - been around since at least the early 1980's.

(3) Somebody forgot about the 1975 singletracking between Kelker/Crews and Palmer Lake to accomodate Colorado Springs. The Powder River coal boom had not hit yet & the side agreement to doubletrack thru the "Springs" was welched-on by the next bunch of political hacks in Colorado Springs...Ever wonder why the railroads and El Paso County barely speak to each other to this day?

(4) The railroads will listen to CDOT's proposal on the Front Range ByPass (they won't laugh at it), but CDOT will never fund it in the current economic times.

(5) Castle Rock in 2005? Fairy Tale, try 2015-2020 at the current rate and only if Douglas County buys-in (questionable if they will).

(6) RTD overwhelming support? Wanna buy the Brooklyn Bridge? 50-50 is overwhelming? I guess you don't read either local paper or know who John Caldera is....(and the rest of the state is not going to support spending the money[?] when they have local issues CDOT pushed back in order to throw more $$$$ at Colorado Springs and the Denver metroplex)

You want rail transit by tying the existing political transit factions together? (they are purely political...CDOT has ZERO railroaders on board, RTD less than your total number of fingers on one hand and the rest? -Zilch except in a historical context (And he is doing more with less resources than any of the rest) -Doomed!

How is ANY of the existing front range R/W surplus between Denver and Pueblo? This sounds like "urban planner speak" from the same clowns that studied Colorado Springs congestion and proposed the solution of having the railroads build a bypass to the east of the Springs, at railroad expense of course, not taking into effect the grade problem or the experience of Colorado & Southern.

I very much would like to see rail transit happen here on the front range, but bad information and an irrational view of how things work in a railroad sense is not helping the cause. Take a time out, leave the dreamers to their own devices and start looking at the practical side of the issue. Should be an eye opener based on your initial post.

Welcome to the real world and keep supporting the basic idea.

Crusty 'ol Iron Feathers
(alternate point of view)

[Anonymous]

SEE?!?! Up with passenger trains!!!

[Anonymous]

SEE?!?! Up with passenger trains!!!

[Anonymous]

I love passenger trains!
If they dissappeared...then there would be a total of 2 trains per week that go through Ottawa.

[Anonymous]

I love passenger trains!
If they dissappeared...then there would be a total of 2 trains per week that go through Ottawa.

[Anonymous]

I care if passenger rail dissapears. if railroads no longer carried passengers it would be a total lose both from a travel perspective and a historical one also.

[Anonymous]

I care if passenger rail dissapears. if railroads no longer carried passengers it would be a total lose both from a travel perspective and a historical one also.

[Anonymous]

Strangely enough the UP, SantaFe and the Great Northern had a real hard time finding suficient cause to present to the ICC to get them out of the passenger business and It wasn't until AmTrak was created and demanded they hand over the business that they actually did get rid of the long distance trains. The Rio Grande continued to run the Zepher into the 1980's until AmTrak took over the central corridor route and today the ski train still runs every week end year arround from Denver to Winter Park. The Denver Regional Transportation District wants to run heavy rail commuter trains from Cheyenne down into New Mexico but the 30+ freight/coal trains a day that they would have to share the right of way with make that impossible so they are going to see if they can get the UP/BNSF to move the coal traffic to lines farther east. There initial contact apparently had the BNSF management rolling arround on the floor holding their stomachs shouting "You want to do What ??". On a snowy day it is possible to have a 40 mile long parking lot on I25 ( on a good day its only about 10 miles long). Tthe RTD light rail system in metro Denver has received over whelming support and is being extended and proposed Heavy rail commuter trains will probably be running as far South as Castle Rock by 2005.

The secret to having a passenger rail network may lie in tieing Regional commutter systems together. In the west most of these systems would run north to south in so much as the cities are to far apart east to west They would use existing surplus railroad right of way and would most likely contract with the freight railroads for maintence but do their own dispatching.

[Anonymous]

Strangely enough the UP, SantaFe and the Great Northern had a real hard time finding suficient cause to present to the ICC to get them out of the passenger business and It wasn't until AmTrak was created and demanded they hand over the business that they actually did get rid of the long distance trains. The Rio Grande continued to run the Zepher into the 1980's until AmTrak took over the central corridor route and today the ski train still runs every week end year arround from Denver to Winter Park. The Denver Regional Transportation District wants to run heavy rail commuter trains from Cheyenne down into New Mexico but the 30+ freight/coal trains a day that they would have to share the right of way with make that impossible so they are going to see if they can get the UP/BNSF to move the coal traffic to lines farther east. There initial contact apparently had the BNSF management rolling arround on the floor holding their stomachs shouting "You want to do What ??". On a snowy day it is possible to have a 40 mile long parking lot on I25 ( on a good day its only about 10 miles long). Tthe RTD light rail system in metro Denver has received over whelming support and is being extended and proposed Heavy rail commuter trains will probably be running as far South as Castle Rock by 2005.

The secret to having a passenger rail network may lie in tieing Regional commutter systems together. In the west most of these systems would run north to south in so much as the cities are to far apart east to west They would use existing surplus railroad right of way and would most likely contract with the freight railroads for maintence but do their own dispatching.

[Anonymous]

You are right! I ride Amtrak twice a year to D.C. and it is always full including the sleepers. Every stop along that route is practically in the middle of the night, Pittsburgh, Toledo, etc, and there is plenty getting off and on. I wi***hey had a daytime service on that route.

[Anonymous]

You are right! I ride Amtrak twice a year to D.C. and it is always full including the sleepers. Every stop along that route is practically in the middle of the night, Pittsburgh, Toledo, etc, and there is plenty getting off and on. I wi***hey had a daytime service on that route.

[Anonymous]

What is expensive is the building of the passenger only railroads. Once built, the entity running the railroad should be able to turn a profit on operations. What many of us are saying is why is the government building airports and terminals and not building passenger only rail?

The feds last year spend $33 billion on highways, $12 billion on airports (not including the $29 billion bailout out the FAA), $7 billion on intracity transportation (commuter rail, light rail, and buses), and $900 million on Amtrak, when Amtrak needs $5 billion just to maintain the northeast corridor infrastructure.

And any business I know that is running at capacity increases capacity! Every train I have ridden lately in the past few years have been full. And Amtrak is doing this in some cities with lously service times in the middle of the night. Which leads you to the conclusion that Amtrak should lease more sleepers and coaches..... if not more trainsets. Increasing frequency would likely result in even more ridership numbers especially in the cities being serviced in the middle of the night.

Why doesn't Amtrak increase capacity?

[Anonymous]

What is expensive is the building of the passenger only railroads. Once built, the entity running the railroad should be able to turn a profit on operations. What many of us are saying is why is the government building airports and terminals and not building passenger only rail?

The feds last year spend $33 billion on highways, $12 billion on airports (not including the $29 billion bailout out the FAA), $7 billion on intracity transportation (commuter rail, light rail, and buses), and $900 million on Amtrak, when Amtrak needs $5 billion just to maintain the northeast corridor infrastructure.

And any business I know that is running at capacity increases capacity! Every train I have ridden lately in the past few years have been full. And Amtrak is doing this in some cities with lously service times in the middle of the night. Which leads you to the conclusion that Amtrak should lease more sleepers and coaches..... if not more trainsets. Increasing frequency would likely result in even more ridership numbers especially in the cities being serviced in the middle of the night.

Why doesn't Amtrak increase capacity?

[brilondon]

[8D]LagrangeIII[8D] You have the right idea but the cost of setting up a passenger network and running it are [:(!]incredibly expensive[:(!]. In fact the reason most of the railroads got out of the passenger business is because of the expense of passenger side of its operation. Even today the passenger railroads ( Amtrak and VIA ) could not run without being subsidized by their respective governments. They would not exist now if the passenger roads had to create their own trackage right-of-ways. The vast majority of the trackage Via and Amtrak uses are owned by the freight railroads, who maintain the track and the signaling equiptment, not to mention the dispatchers and other personal needed to run a railroad.[:D][:D]

[brilondon]

[8D]LagrangeIII[8D] You have the right idea but the cost of setting up a passenger network and running it are [:(!]incredibly expensive[:(!]. In fact the reason most of the railroads got out of the passenger business is because of the expense of passenger side of its operation. Even today the passenger railroads ( Amtrak and VIA ) could not run without being subsidized by their respective governments. They would not exist now if the passenger roads had to create their own trackage right-of-ways. The vast majority of the trackage Via and Amtrak uses are owned by the freight railroads, who maintain the track and the signaling equiptment, not to mention the dispatchers and other personal needed to run a railroad.[:D][:D]

[Anonymous]

Sorry to post so quickly but think about how many times you adults have been stuck in traffic or have had "road rage". Drunk Drivers, suspended licenses, or just madmen behind the wheel. Think about how many lives are lost.....What can be done to improve this? I say get more people of these roads. Well what do we do with these people? Thats your disicion. You can risk your life on an airplane in this uncertain world, take a bus, just more congestion, put them on a boat, that wouldn't work in most cases, walk, people are to darn lazy and fat to walk, well put them on a train, ok that might work....... What I'm saying is that don't totaly eliminate Air and Road Travel but make them less dependant for people. As far as I know no pepole put themselves in danger when riding a train(I know about derailments.....) People might complain about it being slow but isn't that better than cursing at someone because they cut you off or being killed by some of these idiots? Stress isn't healthy (DUH!) I don't like the fact that airlines suggest that they expand O'Hare airport. More noise, more traffic to get there and back, more tourists, but we cant stop it. I know Piolits are very qualified at what there doing but there are some who dont like there job and don't take it seriously. Would you like someone like that pioloting a huge vanurable object 1,000 to 40,000 feet in the sky or near a city?!! I dont! Like I said before Im not saying down with airways or down with roads! Im just saying give railways a fighting chance! Its not fair! It has never been fair even before the 1950's and you know it! As I said before I am 14 and I am strictly posting by logic. I have no buisness backround or stuff like that so I am sorry If these suggestions are iggnorant. Anyone please tell me why this won't work

[Anonymous]

Sorry to post so quickly but think about how many times you adults have been stuck in traffic or have had "road rage". Drunk Drivers, suspended licenses, or just madmen behind the wheel. Think about how many lives are lost.....What can be done to improve this? I say get more people of these roads. Well what do we do with these people? Thats your disicion. You can risk your life on an airplane in this uncertain world, take a bus, just more congestion, put them on a boat, that wouldn't work in most cases, walk, people are to darn lazy and fat to walk, well put them on a train, ok that might work....... What I'm saying is that don't totaly eliminate Air and Road Travel but make them less dependant for people. As far as I know no pepole put themselves in danger when riding a train(I know about derailments.....) People might complain about it being slow but isn't that better than cursing at someone because they cut you off or being killed by some of these idiots? Stress isn't healthy (DUH!) I don't like the fact that airlines suggest that they expand O'Hare airport. More noise, more traffic to get there and back, more tourists, but we cant stop it. I know Piolits are very qualified at what there doing but there are some who dont like there job and don't take it seriously. Would you like someone like that pioloting a huge vanurable object 1,000 to 40,000 feet in the sky or near a city?!! I dont! Like I said before Im not saying down with airways or down with roads! Im just saying give railways a fighting chance! Its not fair! It has never been fair even before the 1950's and you know it! As I said before I am 14 and I am strictly posting by logic. I have no buisness backround or stuff like that so I am sorry If these suggestions are iggnorant. Anyone please tell me why this won't work

[Anonymous]

I feel really out of place here cause im only 14 but why not start up individual passenger service again? I mean it seems like railroads are disappearing every day less line traffic more room for trains....right? Im probobly not the first oneto notice but trucks are poluting the air every day. If they're dependability was lowered and less were in the US wouldnt gas prices be lowered? Anyway as far as I know Airlines and trucks make up at least 70% of the equation while trains make up less than 30% at least to me even lower maybe..... This comes as a plea because I want to see more trains frieght and passenger (other than Amtrak). Im sorry if some of these comments were ignorrant.
P.S. I mourn the loss of the Wisconson Central that was swalloed up by the CN? Im not sure but I do know the W.C. is no more. Please keep the paint scheme for a while Please........[:(]

[Anonymous]

I feel really out of place here cause im only 14 but why not start up individual passenger service again? I mean it seems like railroads are disappearing every day less line traffic more room for trains....right? Im probobly not the first oneto notice but trucks are poluting the air every day. If they're dependability was lowered and less were in the US wouldnt gas prices be lowered? Anyway as far as I know Airlines and trucks make up at least 70% of the equation while trains make up less than 30% at least to me even lower maybe..... This comes as a plea because I want to see more trains frieght and passenger (other than Amtrak). Im sorry if some of these comments were ignorrant.
P.S. I mourn the loss of the Wisconson Central that was swalloed up by the CN? Im not sure but I do know the W.C. is no more. Please keep the paint scheme for a while Please........[:(]

[Anonymous]

Regarding buff standards, I think i have to say some things.

1. In Europe, both freight and passenger trains are built on lower standards. So, if two trains crash, no train gets demolished by the other one.

2. The european screw coupler is only capable to withstand about 66,000 pounds, so a 440,000 pounds buff standard is safe enough for european operations. But many american locomotive consists are capable to pull more, and the AAR coupler is a lot stronger, therefore locomotive force is high enough to break many european trains.

3. When passenger trains are physically segregated from freights, no "equalizing" standard is needed. So there is no problem on running lighter trainsets on lighter-train-only lines. But despite its great look and being passenger-designed, an F59PHI (or GE Genesis, though ugly) is still a threat for lighter trains, and should not be run between them.

So, there is no easy solution.

[Anonymous]

Regarding buff standards, I think i have to say some things.

1. In Europe, both freight and passenger trains are built on lower standards. So, if two trains crash, no train gets demolished by the other one.

2. The european screw coupler is only capable to withstand about 66,000 pounds, so a 440,000 pounds buff standard is safe enough for european operations. But many american locomotive consists are capable to pull more, and the AAR coupler is a lot stronger, therefore locomotive force is high enough to break many european trains.

3. When passenger trains are physically segregated from freights, no "equalizing" standard is needed. So there is no problem on running lighter trainsets on lighter-train-only lines. But despite its great look and being passenger-designed, an F59PHI (or GE Genesis, though ugly) is still a threat for lighter trains, and should not be run between them.

So, there is no easy solution.

[Anonymous]

Since the federal government hasn't a clue, it looks as if the state's will have to get high speed rail rolling. It appears that California, Florida, Texas will move first with brand new tracks for 150 mph high speed rail, whereas Illinois is moving ahead improving the condition of their old freight tracks to 100 mph. Eventually, when the feds does get involved, the first projects will be to connect the northeast corridor to Florida, Texas, and Illinois.... That is why I proposed my parralegram.....

[Anonymous]

Since the federal government hasn't a clue, it looks as if the state's will have to get high speed rail rolling. It appears that California, Florida, Texas will move first with brand new tracks for 150 mph high speed rail, whereas Illinois is moving ahead improving the condition of their old freight tracks to 100 mph. Eventually, when the feds does get involved, the first projects will be to connect the northeast corridor to Florida, Texas, and Illinois.... That is why I proposed my parralegram.....

[Anonymous]

The Europeans don't have free interstate highways, they have what we call turnpikes. Therefore they pay to drive down a controlled access highway. In most of America, we don't.

As far as density is concerned, America east of the Mississippi River will catch up to the density in Europe in twenty to thirty years. America is still growing in population, whereas there isn't much of an increase in population in Europe.

[Anonymous]

The Europeans don't have free interstate highways, they have what we call turnpikes. Therefore they pay to drive down a controlled access highway. In most of America, we don't.

As far as density is concerned, America east of the Mississippi River will catch up to the density in Europe in twenty to thirty years. America is still growing in population, whereas there isn't much of an increase in population in Europe.

[brilondon]

You must realize though that in Europe and Japan that the distances they travel are much less and that they have a very condensed population base and thus making rail transport economicaly viable. Also they have very heavy cogestion[:(] on their highways and secondary roads in and around their major cities making the car less desirable method of travel. Then once at your destination you have to pay a fortune[:(] to park your vehicle if you can find a spot to park it.[8D]

[brilondon]

You must realize though that in Europe and Japan that the distances they travel are much less and that they have a very condensed population base and thus making rail transport economicaly viable. Also they have very heavy cogestion[:(] on their highways and secondary roads in and around their major cities making the car less desirable method of travel. Then once at your destination you have to pay a fortune[:(] to park your vehicle if you can find a spot to park it.[8D]

[jsanchez]

Most Railroads in Japan have been privitized over ten years now, the bullet trains are very profitable and are being expanded to serve even more of the country.

QUOTE: Originally posted by cabforward

when a govt. runs the r.r., they spend all the money they want.. tgv in france, and whatever they call it in japan, are govt. operations..

they can do whatever they want, they are in charge.. they own the bank, they print the money..

here, not true, o.k.? private r.rs. run freights, govt. runs pass.. they share freight's r-o-w, o.k.?

private r.rs. will not sell another pass. ticket in the present universe..

that leaves just the govt.. not csx or bnsf, not a group of r.rs., not a whiz-bang co. from mexico city..

the only way long-haul pass. will work here is if it is handled by the govt., just like in other countries, o.k.?

the problem is, other countries have always handled their r.rs.. here, private r.rs. handle freight, will never give it up, and resent the presence of amtrak on their r-o-w, o.k.?

the only r-o-w amtrak can use is private freights', because they used to run pass. trains on the same tracks they use for freight service now..

american taxpayers & politicians will never support building r-o-w just for amtrak, read my previous posts..

texas' secret behind their building of transit lines is just that, they are transit lines.. the feds support transit lines because crowded cities want them, the product is pre-sold.. noone will draw a supportive crowd arguing against transit, o.k.?

rail pass. service in america is dead for service over 500 miles.. amtrak will not be running the cross-country trains in 10 more years, the inflationary cost is too great, the benefits are too small, o.k.?

europe and other areas of the world can operate cross-country rail because they are in charge.. their word trumps anything the opposition can say..

the golden rule: 'he who has the gold, makes the rules'.. o.k.?

here the gold is split between the govt. and private freights, o.k.?

public sentiment, brainstorming of ideas and lists of advantages enjoyed if we would go with someone's plan don't count..

we will never have hi-speed rail as other countries do because we aren't like other countries.. their govts. have always run all their trains, their govts. can spend whatever they want, their govts. don't have to fight the hundreds of state, city, county govts. & govt. agencies to get permission to acquire r-o-w as we do, o.k.?

our govt. is not like any other, our legal structure is not like any other, our division of freight & pass. service is not like any other..

that means we can have no expectation of modeling pass. r.r. like any other, o.k.?

[jsanchez]

Most Railroads in Japan have been privitized over ten years now, the bullet trains are very profitable and are being expanded to serve even more of the country.

QUOTE: Originally posted by cabforward

when a govt. runs the r.r., they spend all the money they want.. tgv in france, and whatever they call it in japan, are govt. operations..

they can do whatever they want, they are in charge.. they own the bank, they print the money..

here, not true, o.k.? private r.rs. run freights, govt. runs pass.. they share freight's r-o-w, o.k.?

private r.rs. will not sell another pass. ticket in the present universe..

that leaves just the govt.. not csx or bnsf, not a group of r.rs., not a whiz-bang co. from mexico city..

the only way long-haul pass. will work here is if it is handled by the govt., just like in other countries, o.k.?

the problem is, other countries have always handled their r.rs.. here, private r.rs. handle freight, will never give it up, and resent the presence of amtrak on their r-o-w, o.k.?

the only r-o-w amtrak can use is private freights', because they used to run pass. trains on the same tracks they use for freight service now..

american taxpayers & politicians will never support building r-o-w just for amtrak, read my previous posts..

texas' secret behind their building of transit lines is just that, they are transit lines.. the feds support transit lines because crowded cities want them, the product is pre-sold.. noone will draw a supportive crowd arguing against transit, o.k.?

rail pass. service in america is dead for service over 500 miles.. amtrak will not be running the cross-country trains in 10 more years, the inflationary cost is too great, the benefits are too small, o.k.?

europe and other areas of the world can operate cross-country rail because they are in charge.. their word trumps anything the opposition can say..

the golden rule: 'he who has the gold, makes the rules'.. o.k.?

here the gold is split between the govt. and private freights, o.k.?

public sentiment, brainstorming of ideas and lists of advantages enjoyed if we would go with someone's plan don't count..

we will never have hi-speed rail as other countries do because we aren't like other countries.. their govts. have always run all their trains, their govts. can spend whatever they want, their govts. don't have to fight the hundreds of state, city, county govts. & govt. agencies to get permission to acquire r-o-w as we do, o.k.?

our govt. is not like any other, our legal structure is not like any other, our division of freight & pass. service is not like any other..

that means we can have no expectation of modeling pass. r.r. like any other, o.k.?

[brilondon]

I believe that there is still a place for passenger train service in Norh America and not just as a tourist trains which out side the corridors in Canada are all we really have. I think if Amtrak is serious about keeping the trains running they will have to find out what the public wants in train travel and how much they are willing to pay for the service. If the governments of both Canada and the US are going to have to pick up the cost of the trains then I believe it is in their best interests to do a study of needs and desires of the people riding the trains and determin the feasibility of passenger trains.[:)][8D]