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Bad train pictures

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Anonymous
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Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, August 17, 2003 9:34 AM
Hi All,
As I understand the term, This is location on train where a hobo could ride reasonably safely, and invisibly. The back of the Tender, and doorway of baggage or mail car next to engine come to mind. Also have seen photos of hobos riding on the very front of the steam engine by the smokebox. In this location they would have been out of sight of the engine crew. Great view, & lots of free airconditioning.
Bob
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Anonymous
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Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, August 17, 2003 9:34 AM
Hi All,
As I understand the term, This is location on train where a hobo could ride reasonably safely, and invisibly. The back of the Tender, and doorway of baggage or mail car next to engine come to mind. Also have seen photos of hobos riding on the very front of the steam engine by the smokebox. In this location they would have been out of sight of the engine crew. Great view, & lots of free airconditioning.
Bob
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edblysard
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Posted by edblysard on Sunday, August 17, 2003 9:29 AM
My deepest, most humble appoligies.
But I have no idea what "in the blind" means[.
But after reading your guess, I think you got it allready.
Edquote]Originally posted by jhhtrainsplanes

ED, I'm hurt [|)] I'm broken-hearted [:(] You didn't answer my question. I'm still in the "blind" [;)] What is a feller to do? [:0]

My question may be to archaic for our "young" members such as myself [;)] By the way I still have that swamp land in Arizona for sale--price reduced to $2,499 an acre. Any takers? [:D]

Stay safe, and Look, Listen, and LIVE

Don't forget the troops

That ok ED, I'll still vote for you. [:)]

23 17 46 11

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edblysard
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Posted by edblysard on Sunday, August 17, 2003 9:29 AM
My deepest, most humble appoligies.
But I have no idea what "in the blind" means[.
But after reading your guess, I think you got it allready.
Edquote]Originally posted by jhhtrainsplanes

ED, I'm hurt [|)] I'm broken-hearted [:(] You didn't answer my question. I'm still in the "blind" [;)] What is a feller to do? [:0]

My question may be to archaic for our "young" members such as myself [;)] By the way I still have that swamp land in Arizona for sale--price reduced to $2,499 an acre. Any takers? [:D]

Stay safe, and Look, Listen, and LIVE

Don't forget the troops

That ok ED, I'll still vote for you. [:)]

23 17 46 11

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Anonymous
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Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, August 17, 2003 8:24 AM
ED, I'm hurt [|)] I'm broken-hearted [:(] You didn't answer my question. I'm still in the "blind" [;)] What is a feller to do? [:0]

My question may be to archaic for our "young" members such as myself [;)] By the way I still have that swamp land in Arizona for sale--price reduced to $2,499 an acre. Any takers? [:D]

Stay safe, and Look, Listen, and LIVE

Don't forget the troops

That ok ED, I'll still vote for you. [:)]
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Anonymous
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Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, August 17, 2003 8:24 AM
ED, I'm hurt [|)] I'm broken-hearted [:(] You didn't answer my question. I'm still in the "blind" [;)] What is a feller to do? [:0]

My question may be to archaic for our "young" members such as myself [;)] By the way I still have that swamp land in Arizona for sale--price reduced to $2,499 an acre. Any takers? [:D]

Stay safe, and Look, Listen, and LIVE

Don't forget the troops

That ok ED, I'll still vote for you. [:)]
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edblysard
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Posted by edblysard on Sunday, August 17, 2003 12:18 AM
Wow,
I think Nora started something!
Bet on what you saw being a slug, a old locomotive, with out a diesel engine, having had the cab removed and the hood cut down to improve visability over the top.
These are often home made affairs, made in that railroads shops out of older junked locomotives.
There are B units, cabless locomotives, but they look like their counterparts, sans a cab.
A slug's fuel tank is filled with sand or cement, and 55 gallon drums of cement or sand are put in the hood where the diesel was, to increase the weight.
The traction motors draw current from the lead locomotive, which ever one is the controling unit.

EMD made a cow and calf set, called a TR5, basicly a SW9 switcher with a cabless SW9 unit semi permantly coupled to it, both had diesel engines, the calf, or cabless unit had a simple set of hoslter controls to allow it to be moved around by itself if needed.
These have been gone for years.

You see slugs in hump yard service, and on occasion, in yard to yard transfer service, they provice additional tractive effort without using fuel.

As for the 8 or 9 locomotives, most likley a power move.
If you live between two yards, or near where there are a few yards, you will see this often.
Locomotives seem to bunch up in one yard or another for some reason, and when there is a shortage in one yard, and a excess in another, they move the power to where it is needed most.
Most likley, only the head two, or leading locomotives were on line, the rest were being towed, no need for that much horsepower.

Note that when you see only two locomotives, they are usually coupled rear end to rear end, one each facing away from the other.
When a crew completes their run, and needs to return, or a new crew needs to take a train back in the direction the locomotives came from, there is no need to turn them around, with one facing each way, all you have to do is swap the controls from one to the other, either one can be the lead unit.
With a diesel electric locomotive, it makes no difference which way it faces, it runs just as fast and just as well in reverse as forward

Signals, in ABS, the system is designed to keep a minimun of three blocks between trains, so when you enter a block, the signal that is four blocks ahead of you, facing opposing traffic, will go red, the one after that, 5 away from you, will show yellow, so forth and so on.
As you proceed, the signals for any opposing traffic will keep pace ahead of you, the signals behind you will also change, in reverse order, so any following traffic will allways be three blocks behind you.
By the way, that is a very simplified example, there is enough to fill a small book!
In CTC, the dispatcher can overide the system for any special movement, and can flag you through a red if needed.
If the power fails, most systems will show red on all signals, they have back up batteries.
If for some reason, all power, battries included, fail, then the signal will go dark.
The rules state any signal that is dark or not functioning, should be treated as a absolute red, you must stop and contact the dispatcher to receive permission to proceed.

By the way, Nora, the only silly question is the one not asked!
No one single person here has all the answers, even the trainmasters dont know it all, (although they would never admit to it), but there are enough railroaders and sharp fans here to answer almost anything you need or want to know.
Some even go out of their way to research a answer for others.
Jenny, aka Mookie, should be able to run a locomotive, or do a conductors job, based soley on the questions she askes!
And she askes some tough one, real doozies!
Stay Frosty,
Stay nosey!
Ed[8D]

23 17 46 11

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edblysard
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Posted by edblysard on Sunday, August 17, 2003 12:18 AM
Wow,
I think Nora started something!
Bet on what you saw being a slug, a old locomotive, with out a diesel engine, having had the cab removed and the hood cut down to improve visability over the top.
These are often home made affairs, made in that railroads shops out of older junked locomotives.
There are B units, cabless locomotives, but they look like their counterparts, sans a cab.
A slug's fuel tank is filled with sand or cement, and 55 gallon drums of cement or sand are put in the hood where the diesel was, to increase the weight.
The traction motors draw current from the lead locomotive, which ever one is the controling unit.

EMD made a cow and calf set, called a TR5, basicly a SW9 switcher with a cabless SW9 unit semi permantly coupled to it, both had diesel engines, the calf, or cabless unit had a simple set of hoslter controls to allow it to be moved around by itself if needed.
These have been gone for years.

You see slugs in hump yard service, and on occasion, in yard to yard transfer service, they provice additional tractive effort without using fuel.

As for the 8 or 9 locomotives, most likley a power move.
If you live between two yards, or near where there are a few yards, you will see this often.
Locomotives seem to bunch up in one yard or another for some reason, and when there is a shortage in one yard, and a excess in another, they move the power to where it is needed most.
Most likley, only the head two, or leading locomotives were on line, the rest were being towed, no need for that much horsepower.

Note that when you see only two locomotives, they are usually coupled rear end to rear end, one each facing away from the other.
When a crew completes their run, and needs to return, or a new crew needs to take a train back in the direction the locomotives came from, there is no need to turn them around, with one facing each way, all you have to do is swap the controls from one to the other, either one can be the lead unit.
With a diesel electric locomotive, it makes no difference which way it faces, it runs just as fast and just as well in reverse as forward

Signals, in ABS, the system is designed to keep a minimun of three blocks between trains, so when you enter a block, the signal that is four blocks ahead of you, facing opposing traffic, will go red, the one after that, 5 away from you, will show yellow, so forth and so on.
As you proceed, the signals for any opposing traffic will keep pace ahead of you, the signals behind you will also change, in reverse order, so any following traffic will allways be three blocks behind you.
By the way, that is a very simplified example, there is enough to fill a small book!
In CTC, the dispatcher can overide the system for any special movement, and can flag you through a red if needed.
If the power fails, most systems will show red on all signals, they have back up batteries.
If for some reason, all power, battries included, fail, then the signal will go dark.
The rules state any signal that is dark or not functioning, should be treated as a absolute red, you must stop and contact the dispatcher to receive permission to proceed.

By the way, Nora, the only silly question is the one not asked!
No one single person here has all the answers, even the trainmasters dont know it all, (although they would never admit to it), but there are enough railroaders and sharp fans here to answer almost anything you need or want to know.
Some even go out of their way to research a answer for others.
Jenny, aka Mookie, should be able to run a locomotive, or do a conductors job, based soley on the questions she askes!
And she askes some tough one, real doozies!
Stay Frosty,
Stay nosey!
Ed[8D]

23 17 46 11

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Anonymous
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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, August 16, 2003 10:33 PM
The "sensor" is known as a track circuit. They run a low current through the rails, and this holds a relay open, allowing current to flow through the green light. When a train shunts the circuit through its metal axles, the relay drops (no current!) and the current flows to the red light. (This is a fail-safe feature; that way, if any component fails or the system loses track circuit power, it drops to red. You need a flow of energy to keep it green, not the other way around.)

The yellow light means the next signal is red, and the engineer must proceed prepared to stop. (Usually a speed restriction is attached to this - 30 or 40 MPH, depending on the road. This is an extra safety feature; that way the engineer is required to do something the moment he sees the yellow signal. It's a psychological thing, rather than risk letting him/her just pass by it and forget about the warning.) The yellow light is activated by another relay -

There's a second relay in the signal that switches between green and yellow; I believe this relay is held open (to the green light) when there's current flowing through the NEXT track circuit; when that circuit is shunted - and so the next signal red - the relay loses power and drops, and the signal shows yellow.

There's no timer that controls the transition from red to yellow. (Remember, the fundamental cornerstone of block systems since the end of the early days has been separation by some distance, not by time!)
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Anonymous
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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, August 16, 2003 10:33 PM
The "sensor" is known as a track circuit. They run a low current through the rails, and this holds a relay open, allowing current to flow through the green light. When a train shunts the circuit through its metal axles, the relay drops (no current!) and the current flows to the red light. (This is a fail-safe feature; that way, if any component fails or the system loses track circuit power, it drops to red. You need a flow of energy to keep it green, not the other way around.)

The yellow light means the next signal is red, and the engineer must proceed prepared to stop. (Usually a speed restriction is attached to this - 30 or 40 MPH, depending on the road. This is an extra safety feature; that way the engineer is required to do something the moment he sees the yellow signal. It's a psychological thing, rather than risk letting him/her just pass by it and forget about the warning.) The yellow light is activated by another relay -

There's a second relay in the signal that switches between green and yellow; I believe this relay is held open (to the green light) when there's current flowing through the NEXT track circuit; when that circuit is shunted - and so the next signal red - the relay loses power and drops, and the signal shows yellow.

There's no timer that controls the transition from red to yellow. (Remember, the fundamental cornerstone of block systems since the end of the early days has been separation by some distance, not by time!)
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Anonymous
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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, August 16, 2003 9:41 PM
I'll try to answer the signal question-
when train passes green signal it triggers some sensor that makes the light turn red. It will remain red until that train either passes the next signal or it will change from red to amber "approach" after a certain period of time. Its kinda similar with meeting trains- first train to reach the signal on one end of the block (distance between two signals) wins. The slower train has to wait on the siding until the other one clears that block. yeah.
Please correct me if i'm wrong.
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Anonymous
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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, August 16, 2003 9:41 PM
I'll try to answer the signal question-
when train passes green signal it triggers some sensor that makes the light turn red. It will remain red until that train either passes the next signal or it will change from red to amber "approach" after a certain period of time. Its kinda similar with meeting trains- first train to reach the signal on one end of the block (distance between two signals) wins. The slower train has to wait on the siding until the other one clears that block. yeah.
Please correct me if i'm wrong.
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Anonymous
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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, August 16, 2003 7:52 PM
Thank you Nora for starting this thread. It may become one of the most read and most informative threads yet or ever posted.

I too would like to throw a question in the mix. One of the forum members has a quote from a song at the end of his posts. It goes something like this, I may ride the blind, ain't got no railroad fair. We all have heard of duck blinds (well anyway down South we have) def: a place of concealment, something to hinder sight. And I have read stories about NYC engines scooping water from a track pan. When the tender overflowed the water would shoot out a spout near the end of the tender and anyone there would be soaked. In the Winter the track pan was heated just enough to keep the water from freezing. Anyone hidden behind the tender , in Winter, was in for a cold and unwanted surprise. Is this area behind the tender called the blind or am I on the wrong track (pun intended). Another guess is the caboose. If the engine were considered the point then the caboose might be construed as the blind. Or is this idea just the blind leading the blind?

Nora has started a good thing here. Now we can all get educated. Again, Thank You, Nora.

Have a great day. Who said you can't teach an old dog new tricks? Arf, arf.

As always, stay safe and Look, Listen, and LIVE.

Don't Forget the Troops

Ed for President
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Anonymous
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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, August 16, 2003 7:52 PM
Thank you Nora for starting this thread. It may become one of the most read and most informative threads yet or ever posted.

I too would like to throw a question in the mix. One of the forum members has a quote from a song at the end of his posts. It goes something like this, I may ride the blind, ain't got no railroad fair. We all have heard of duck blinds (well anyway down South we have) def: a place of concealment, something to hinder sight. And I have read stories about NYC engines scooping water from a track pan. When the tender overflowed the water would shoot out a spout near the end of the tender and anyone there would be soaked. In the Winter the track pan was heated just enough to keep the water from freezing. Anyone hidden behind the tender , in Winter, was in for a cold and unwanted surprise. Is this area behind the tender called the blind or am I on the wrong track (pun intended). Another guess is the caboose. If the engine were considered the point then the caboose might be construed as the blind. Or is this idea just the blind leading the blind?

Nora has started a good thing here. Now we can all get educated. Again, Thank You, Nora.

Have a great day. Who said you can't teach an old dog new tricks? Arf, arf.

As always, stay safe and Look, Listen, and LIVE.

Don't Forget the Troops

Ed for President
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Willy2
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Posted by Willy2 on Saturday, August 16, 2003 7:29 PM
Here another question. It is not about yard engines. My question is how do mainline signals know to change to red when a train is coming and another train must wait? Or how do they know to turn green when a waiting train is able to proceed.

Willy

Willy

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Willy2
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Posted by Willy2 on Saturday, August 16, 2003 7:29 PM
Here another question. It is not about yard engines. My question is how do mainline signals know to change to red when a train is coming and another train must wait? Or how do they know to turn green when a waiting train is able to proceed.

Willy

Willy

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Anonymous
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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, August 16, 2003 7:05 PM
There are not stupid questions, just stupid answers



Tom
GOD BLESS THE GREAT NORTHERN
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Anonymous
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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, August 16, 2003 7:05 PM
There are not stupid questions, just stupid answers



Tom
GOD BLESS THE GREAT NORTHERN
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TH&B
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Posted by TH&B on Saturday, August 16, 2003 5:19 PM
Someone said they never seen a six axled slug, but in fact they are not uncommon, BNSF in Kansas have them (sd9), CR in Buffalo had them maybe still do as CSX, NW used old TRAINMASTERS. Some slugs are scratch built and can be hard to recognise the parts they are made of.
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TH&B
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Posted by TH&B on Saturday, August 16, 2003 5:19 PM
Someone said they never seen a six axled slug, but in fact they are not uncommon, BNSF in Kansas have them (sd9), CR in Buffalo had them maybe still do as CSX, NW used old TRAINMASTERS. Some slugs are scratch built and can be hard to recognise the parts they are made of.
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Nora
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Posted by Nora on Saturday, August 16, 2003 4:28 PM
It sounds like that's what I saw -- a slug. Thanks for the very informative answers; I'm sure I'll be back with more questions soon. [:)]
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Nora
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Posted by Nora on Saturday, August 16, 2003 4:28 PM
It sounds like that's what I saw -- a slug. Thanks for the very informative answers; I'm sure I'll be back with more questions soon. [:)]
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dmoore74
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Posted by dmoore74 on Saturday, August 16, 2003 12:46 PM
There is actually a difference between a slug and a calf. As a number of people have correctly stated the slug has traction motors but no prime mover and it receives power from the other locomotive(s). A calf on the other hand does have a prime mover but no cab or operating controls. The calf is controlled through the MU connection to the lead locomotive (cow). EMD has manufactured cow-calf combinations in the past but I don't think they do at the current time.
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dmoore74
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Posted by dmoore74 on Saturday, August 16, 2003 12:46 PM
There is actually a difference between a slug and a calf. As a number of people have correctly stated the slug has traction motors but no prime mover and it receives power from the other locomotive(s). A calf on the other hand does have a prime mover but no cab or operating controls. The calf is controlled through the MU connection to the lead locomotive (cow). EMD has manufactured cow-calf combinations in the past but I don't think they do at the current time.
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Modelcar
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Posted by Modelcar on Saturday, August 16, 2003 7:48 AM
...May I comment a little further. Beyond all the good info already posted....To state some basic info: A railroad engine provides power with a prime mover..[usually a diesel engine], and connected to that is a divice to generate electricity. This power is then sent to the traction motors which are connected to each axle [most cases]...where you see each wheel located and they provide the power to each axle to move the engine. The "slug"....has only the traction motors to receive power from an engine it is physically and electrictly connected to, to help do the work. Since it doesn't have a "prime mover" it doesn't have the weight needed to transfer that power from the wheels to the rails without just spinning it's wheels, extra weight is added to the slug itself [as stated above], to provide that traction needed to be useful. The engine it is attached to has enough power to supply the slug as well.

Quentin

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Modelcar
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Posted by Modelcar on Saturday, August 16, 2003 7:48 AM
...May I comment a little further. Beyond all the good info already posted....To state some basic info: A railroad engine provides power with a prime mover..[usually a diesel engine], and connected to that is a divice to generate electricity. This power is then sent to the traction motors which are connected to each axle [most cases]...where you see each wheel located and they provide the power to each axle to move the engine. The "slug"....has only the traction motors to receive power from an engine it is physically and electrictly connected to, to help do the work. Since it doesn't have a "prime mover" it doesn't have the weight needed to transfer that power from the wheels to the rails without just spinning it's wheels, extra weight is added to the slug itself [as stated above], to provide that traction needed to be useful. The engine it is attached to has enough power to supply the slug as well.

Quentin

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wabash1
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Posted by wabash1 on Saturday, August 16, 2003 7:41 AM
to do a air brake test there is 3 differant ones to do. ( there are more but most fall back to these basic rules) engines only and complete train.

1) engines only with automatic cut in and independant in lead release the automatic and with conductor on ground release the independant brake. cylinders should go in. when released apply the automatic the engines should set up. when they do bail the independant . they should release when released set more automatic when they set release auto matic. when released set independant. when set brake test is done.

2) complete train test is done when the rear of train is within 15lbs of feed valve setting as seen by person on rear of train with a gauge or by the e.o,t, you make a full service brake reduction. when they quit exhausting you cut out the automatic brake valve and wait 1 min for the air to settle down. the second minute you take a reading from the brake pipe gage when the second min is up take another reading of brake pipe gauge this is the amount of leakage. it can not be more than 5 psi. this is a air leakage test and the brakes are being walked by the carmen. when they are don the brake test is done. there are several more styles of this test but they are basicly the same.

3 flow meter type. i wont get into this as i dont believe in this test. if anyone else wants to talk about this one go ahead.

also thanks for adding what i didnt about the slugs. sand or cement is added for the weight i didnt think about that when i wrote the reply.
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wabash1
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Posted by wabash1 on Saturday, August 16, 2003 7:41 AM
to do a air brake test there is 3 differant ones to do. ( there are more but most fall back to these basic rules) engines only and complete train.

1) engines only with automatic cut in and independant in lead release the automatic and with conductor on ground release the independant brake. cylinders should go in. when released apply the automatic the engines should set up. when they do bail the independant . they should release when released set more automatic when they set release auto matic. when released set independant. when set brake test is done.

2) complete train test is done when the rear of train is within 15lbs of feed valve setting as seen by person on rear of train with a gauge or by the e.o,t, you make a full service brake reduction. when they quit exhausting you cut out the automatic brake valve and wait 1 min for the air to settle down. the second minute you take a reading from the brake pipe gage when the second min is up take another reading of brake pipe gauge this is the amount of leakage. it can not be more than 5 psi. this is a air leakage test and the brakes are being walked by the carmen. when they are don the brake test is done. there are several more styles of this test but they are basicly the same.

3 flow meter type. i wont get into this as i dont believe in this test. if anyone else wants to talk about this one go ahead.

also thanks for adding what i didnt about the slugs. sand or cement is added for the weight i didnt think about that when i wrote the reply.
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cabforward
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Posted by cabforward on Saturday, August 16, 2003 5:02 AM
some members resent seeing the same questions repeated.. some members resent questions about something they've known since they were in short pants.. you will read their posts and learn to ignore them..

a couple of points not covered so far, i think: a string of engines without cars (loads) behind them is known as 'light engines', or light engine if one..
they are likely transiting from storage tracks to a road assignment, or returning from a run to storage.. if you are familiar with the yard arrangment, you can figure this out..

most engines are connected by random position, it's just the way they were pointed when they were called up.. members have posted comments that a r.r. may require engines to face a certain way so if the lead engine fails, the second will take its place easily.. nowadays, r.rs. require engines to always face the cab in the trains' forward direction.. way-back-when, it didn't matter.. one r.r. requires the trailing engine to always face the opposite way, in case they meet an opposing train that needs a substitute engine, they can drop off the trailer, which is facing their direction..

the slug unit was also termed a 'calf' in the distant past.. the attached loco was 'the cow'.. many calfs are permanently configured to the cow..

the only stupid question is the one not asked..

COTTON BELT RUNS A

Blue Streak

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cabforward
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Posted by cabforward on Saturday, August 16, 2003 5:02 AM
some members resent seeing the same questions repeated.. some members resent questions about something they've known since they were in short pants.. you will read their posts and learn to ignore them..

a couple of points not covered so far, i think: a string of engines without cars (loads) behind them is known as 'light engines', or light engine if one..
they are likely transiting from storage tracks to a road assignment, or returning from a run to storage.. if you are familiar with the yard arrangment, you can figure this out..

most engines are connected by random position, it's just the way they were pointed when they were called up.. members have posted comments that a r.r. may require engines to face a certain way so if the lead engine fails, the second will take its place easily.. nowadays, r.rs. require engines to always face the cab in the trains' forward direction.. way-back-when, it didn't matter.. one r.r. requires the trailing engine to always face the opposite way, in case they meet an opposing train that needs a substitute engine, they can drop off the trailer, which is facing their direction..

the slug unit was also termed a 'calf' in the distant past.. the attached loco was 'the cow'.. many calfs are permanently configured to the cow..

the only stupid question is the one not asked..

COTTON BELT RUNS A

Blue Streak

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