Bad train pictures

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Nora

In the yard that I drive past frequently, there are a number of wind socks scattered around on top of light poles, etc. Why are these necessary in a train yard? Would normal wind affect much of anything at all in a yard?

--Nora

Nora [:)]

Dan sometimes does his railfanning from the air while flying. When he see the windsock he know which direction the wind is blowing and which way to properly land his aircraft. You know he might see something from the air that he wants to see from ground level, so this way he can land safely. We wouldn't want him to "quack up". [}:)] [;)]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Nora

In the yard that I drive past frequently, there are a number of wind socks scattered around on top of light poles, etc. Why are these necessary in a train yard? Would normal wind affect much of anything at all in a yard?

--Nora

Nora [:)]

Dan sometimes does his railfanning from the air while flying. When he see the windsock he know which direction the wind is blowing and which way to properly land his aircraft. You know he might see something from the air that he wants to see from ground level, so this way he can land safely. We wouldn't want him to "quack up". [}:)] [;)]

[Anonymous]

Speaking of rail.

How much rail can be replaced(miles) in a single day? I remember reading about the races the man had laying the rail out west by hand. How fast can todays machines work?

[Anonymous]

Speaking of rail.

How much rail can be replaced(miles) in a single day? I remember reading about the races the man had laying the rail out west by hand. How fast can todays machines work?

[tree68]

QUOTE: Originally posted by erikthered

The answer I have heard to the windsock question is for firemen and HAZMAT folks. If something tips over filled with something really nasty- like chlorine, as an extreme illustration- emergency responders can readily determine which way and how fast the wind is blowing. That way they can determine where to park their vehicles- not as goofy as you would think- and where to start evacuating unprotected people.

Erik

That would be the answer. Also keep in mind that most windsock fill out at about 15 mpg of wind, so you can judge relative speed as well.

[tree68]

QUOTE: Originally posted by erikthered

The answer I have heard to the windsock question is for firemen and HAZMAT folks. If something tips over filled with something really nasty- like chlorine, as an extreme illustration- emergency responders can readily determine which way and how fast the wind is blowing. That way they can determine where to park their vehicles- not as goofy as you would think- and where to start evacuating unprotected people.

Erik

That would be the answer. Also keep in mind that most windsock fill out at about 15 mpg of wind, so you can judge relative speed as well.

[Anonymous]

The answer I have heard to the windsock question is for firemen and HAZMAT folks. If something tips over filled with something really nasty- like chlorine, as an extreme illustration- emergency responders can readily determine which way and how fast the wind is blowing. That way they can determine where to park their vehicles- not as goofy as you would think- and where to start evacuating unprotected people.

Erik

[Anonymous]

The answer I have heard to the windsock question is for firemen and HAZMAT folks. If something tips over filled with something really nasty- like chlorine, as an extreme illustration- emergency responders can readily determine which way and how fast the wind is blowing. That way they can determine where to park their vehicles- not as goofy as you would think- and where to start evacuating unprotected people.

Erik

[Nora]

This is the best place to ask questions, because I always get more of an answer than I asked for! Thanks Carl, Ed, Mark, Mudchicken...

Now, on to the next one.

In the yard that I drive past frequently, there are a number of wind socks scattered around on top of light poles, etc. Why are these necessary in a train yard? Would normal wind affect much of anything at all in a yard?

--Nora

[Nora]

This is the best place to ask questions, because I always get more of an answer than I asked for! Thanks Carl, Ed, Mark, Mudchicken...

Now, on to the next one.

In the yard that I drive past frequently, there are a number of wind socks scattered around on top of light poles, etc. Why are these necessary in a train yard? Would normal wind affect much of anything at all in a yard?

--Nora

[mudchicken]

Nora:

Mark & Ed do an excellent job on explaining most of the how and whys of the T-rail shape. Let's add a little to the answer:
(1) Ed talks about adding the mechanical engineer to reason why to the shape of the rail. You need also to remember the metalurgist/metalurgical engineers whose composition of the rail material could have direct affects on the shape of the rail.

(2) For every rail section, there are subtle changes to the rail section (outline) that have created 40+ different cross-sections for the SAME weight of rail (On the rail, the raised letters on the web tell you many things about where the rail came from and when it was rolled, its section and its variant design of the rail section, the number stamped into the rail on the other side is the "heat number" which is a pedigree of the rail and where it came out of the ingot and billet in the steel mill)

110# rail had troubles with the head of the rail "wobbling" and had multiple design changes over the life of the rail. The metalurgists and mechanical engineers had many headaches with the T-section for this rail.

Crane rail has a lip added to it which you frequently see in use in street trackage (built-in flangeway comes in handy) and then there is "head free" rail which has the ball of rail reduced in the lower corners of the head/ ball of the rail....

(3) back where Ed talked about the dime sized contact patch, ...the next time you see a rail grinder - think of that operation as the grinder trying to create the optimum contact patch and rail profile for the wheel to run on. The science of rail grinding is also something of an art and is often a loud object of discussion between railroad maintenance engineers on how this is to be done to obtain the best contact patch [and how to extend the life of that rail section]...this gets to be a dicey situation as railcar wheels on a train are hardly homogenous/ same and what is OK to one railroad is grounds for removal on another (people don't always read wheel gauges the same way)

[mudchicken]

Nora:

Mark & Ed do an excellent job on explaining most of the how and whys of the T-rail shape. Let's add a little to the answer:
(1) Ed talks about adding the mechanical engineer to reason why to the shape of the rail. You need also to remember the metalurgist/metalurgical engineers whose composition of the rail material could have direct affects on the shape of the rail.

(2) For every rail section, there are subtle changes to the rail section (outline) that have created 40+ different cross-sections for the SAME weight of rail (On the rail, the raised letters on the web tell you many things about where the rail came from and when it was rolled, its section and its variant design of the rail section, the number stamped into the rail on the other side is the "heat number" which is a pedigree of the rail and where it came out of the ingot and billet in the steel mill)

110# rail had troubles with the head of the rail "wobbling" and had multiple design changes over the life of the rail. The metalurgists and mechanical engineers had many headaches with the T-section for this rail.

Crane rail has a lip added to it which you frequently see in use in street trackage (built-in flangeway comes in handy) and then there is "head free" rail which has the ball of rail reduced in the lower corners of the head/ ball of the rail....

(3) back where Ed talked about the dime sized contact patch, ...the next time you see a rail grinder - think of that operation as the grinder trying to create the optimum contact patch and rail profile for the wheel to run on. The science of rail grinding is also something of an art and is often a loud object of discussion between railroad maintenance engineers on how this is to be done to obtain the best contact patch [and how to extend the life of that rail section]...this gets to be a dicey situation as railcar wheels on a train are hardly homogenous/ same and what is OK to one railroad is grounds for removal on another (people don't always read wheel gauges the same way)

[CShaveRR]

Believe me, sometimes that "hole" through you put your arm to snag the train orders seemed a lot smaller than it really was, too!

I never missed, though, and our speed was sometimes up around 50 when we went by Tower KO.

If you did miss, you would be operating without a clearance, which would be the equivalent of overstepping your DTC or TWC authority today. You'd better stop and get the orders!

One time, on a Weber transfer run, the hind end missed the orders at Mayfair. All we heard on the radio was one word: "Stop", followed several minutes later by "Go". Everybody knew what happened, anyway...

[CShaveRR]

Believe me, sometimes that "hole" through you put your arm to snag the train orders seemed a lot smaller than it really was, too!

I never missed, though, and our speed was sometimes up around 50 when we went by Tower KO.

If you did miss, you would be operating without a clearance, which would be the equivalent of overstepping your DTC or TWC authority today. You'd better stop and get the orders!

One time, on a Weber transfer run, the hind end missed the orders at Mayfair. All we heard on the radio was one word: "Stop", followed several minutes later by "Go". Everybody knew what happened, anyway...

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dehusman

Believe me a train looks a lot bigger and faster when its going by at an arms length away.

Dave H.

Dave [:)]

I bet it does. [;)]

But at least one would learn firsthand that the old _____ fable (intentionally left blank lol) wasn't true. [}:)] [;)]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dehusman

Believe me a train looks a lot bigger and faster when its going by at an arms length away.

Dave H.

Dave [:)]

I bet it does. [;)]

But at least one would learn firsthand that the old _____ fable (intentionally left blank lol) wasn't true. [}:)] [;)]

[dehusman]

Train order operators did most of the "hooping". On a lot of roads it wasn't a "hoop" it was a forked stick, shaped like a big "Y". The bottom was a 3/4 in dowell about 4 ft long and the two forks were 1/2 or 3/8" dowell about 2 ft long that seperated at about a 45 deg angle. The orders would be rolled and tied with a long loop of string. The string would be hooked on a small hook on the each fork and then held under a clip at the base of the fork, with the orders between the ends of the fork. The operator would hold the end of the "hoop" and touch the tip of a fork to the nearest rail (that would mean the operator was far enough away not to be hit by the train but close enough for the crew to reach the orders) and then hold the "hoop" up in the air were the engineer could reach it. The engineer would stick his arm through the open fork and the string would catch on his arm, pulling the string and orders loose from the hoop. The operator would take the other hoop and repeat the process with the conductor on the caboose.

Believe me a train looks a lot bigger and faster when its going by at an arms length away.

Dave H.

[dehusman]

Train order operators did most of the "hooping". On a lot of roads it wasn't a "hoop" it was a forked stick, shaped like a big "Y". The bottom was a 3/4 in dowell about 4 ft long and the two forks were 1/2 or 3/8" dowell about 2 ft long that seperated at about a 45 deg angle. The orders would be rolled and tied with a long loop of string. The string would be hooked on a small hook on the each fork and then held under a clip at the base of the fork, with the orders between the ends of the fork. The operator would hold the end of the "hoop" and touch the tip of a fork to the nearest rail (that would mean the operator was far enough away not to be hit by the train but close enough for the crew to reach the orders) and then hold the "hoop" up in the air were the engineer could reach it. The engineer would stick his arm through the open fork and the string would catch on his arm, pulling the string and orders loose from the hoop. The operator would take the other hoop and repeat the process with the conductor on the caboose.

Believe me a train looks a lot bigger and faster when its going by at an arms length away.

Dave H.

[Anonymous]

Not a dumb question at all. It should console you that the shape of the rail was not worked out for some time after railroads were invented, and all sorts of different shapes were considered and tried, some very unsuccessfully.

The T-shaped rail works brilliantly in almost all respects, which is why it has persisted for about 150 years. One of the most important reasons it works, cited above, is that economically uses steel for the performance it provides. Rail is extremely expensive: mile after mile, it really adds up. In the 19th century when railroads were built, rail was the single largest cost, and railroads that built during periods of high iron and steel prices often went bankrupt. So engineers have worked very hard for over a hundred years designing sections that are as stingy of steel as possible. Some of the sections they've designed haven't turned out so well: the NYC used a section in the 1960s that got a very bad reputation because it turned out prone to breakage.

Rail is made of very high-quality steel, which is expensive. More importantly, the manufacturing techniques needed to achieve predictable performance in the field are extraordinarily difficult. A broken rail can easily cause a $2 million derailment, and a steel-maker who starts producing a rail with a proclivity toward breakage will be bankrupt in short order. Very few steel manufacturers have the technical skills or the money to be in the rail business.

[Anonymous]

Not a dumb question at all. It should console you that the shape of the rail was not worked out for some time after railroads were invented, and all sorts of different shapes were considered and tried, some very unsuccessfully.

The T-shaped rail works brilliantly in almost all respects, which is why it has persisted for about 150 years. One of the most important reasons it works, cited above, is that economically uses steel for the performance it provides. Rail is extremely expensive: mile after mile, it really adds up. In the 19th century when railroads were built, rail was the single largest cost, and railroads that built during periods of high iron and steel prices often went bankrupt. So engineers have worked very hard for over a hundred years designing sections that are as stingy of steel as possible. Some of the sections they've designed haven't turned out so well: the NYC used a section in the 1960s that got a very bad reputation because it turned out prone to breakage.

Rail is made of very high-quality steel, which is expensive. More importantly, the manufacturing techniques needed to achieve predictable performance in the field are extraordinarily difficult. A broken rail can easily cause a $2 million derailment, and a steel-maker who starts producing a rail with a proclivity toward breakage will be bankrupt in short order. Very few steel manufacturers have the technical skills or the money to be in the rail business.

[Nora]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CShaveRR

That one's easy, Nora...If you had rail in the shape of a rectangle, or trapezoid, you'd have a lot of added weight without much added strength. The ability to transport and handle these huge rails would not be as much of a problem now as it was in the past, but cost would still be a factor. Besides, without the flat part on the bottom, how would you spike it down?

That makes sense. I figured there had to be a reason; thanks for explaining. Although I did understand why there had to be a flat part on the bottom...my question wasn't intended to be quite THAT stupid! [:I]

--Nora

[Nora]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CShaveRR

That one's easy, Nora...If you had rail in the shape of a rectangle, or trapezoid, you'd have a lot of added weight without much added strength. The ability to transport and handle these huge rails would not be as much of a problem now as it was in the past, but cost would still be a factor. Besides, without the flat part on the bottom, how would you spike it down?

That makes sense. I figured there had to be a reason; thanks for explaining. Although I did understand why there had to be a flat part on the bottom...my question wasn't intended to be quite THAT stupid! [:I]

--Nora

[edblysard]

Hi Jim,
You got it, to prevent a static charge from building up in the car.
Some hoppers full of plastic can built up a very high charge, and knock the snot out of you if you discharge it through you!
Tanks full of LPG, and a lot of gases need to be grounded while loading and unloading.
Most grain cars dont need grounding, the tops are opened, and enough venting happens to prevent dust buildup.

Ed

[edblysard]

Hi Jim,
You got it, to prevent a static charge from building up in the car.
Some hoppers full of plastic can built up a very high charge, and knock the snot out of you if you discharge it through you!
Tanks full of LPG, and a lot of gases need to be grounded while loading and unloading.
Most grain cars dont need grounding, the tops are opened, and enough venting happens to prevent dust buildup.

Ed

[Anonymous]

OK, I have a dumb question [:(] [?]

ON the way home from church today I saw a UP train (led by UP 6608) having a bunch of different cars being pulled. One of the cars was labeled something like this, "Caution Before Unloading Attach Ground" or "Ground Cables", or "Grounding Cables". Well anyway I am sure you get the picture. So what was this car hauling? A grounding cable would be to stabilize the electrical potential between the car and the ground and other objects. (This is the reason you should always fill your lawnmower gas can while it is physically setting on the payment at the gas station, to avoid a static discharge and possible explosion.) I have never seen that stencilled on a railroad car before (like I always watch for it [}:)] [;)] ) I really don't remember the type of car because I was trying to read the label, but I don't believe it was a boxcar. Would a grain car need grounding before unloading because of the grain dust? OK guys, jump on this one and educate me ( and everyone else who might want to know). lol

[Anonymous]

OK, I have a dumb question [:(] [?]

ON the way home from church today I saw a UP train (led by UP 6608) having a bunch of different cars being pulled. One of the cars was labeled something like this, "Caution Before Unloading Attach Ground" or "Ground Cables", or "Grounding Cables". Well anyway I am sure you get the picture. So what was this car hauling? A grounding cable would be to stabilize the electrical potential between the car and the ground and other objects. (This is the reason you should always fill your lawnmower gas can while it is physically setting on the payment at the gas station, to avoid a static discharge and possible explosion.) I have never seen that stencilled on a railroad car before (like I always watch for it [}:)] [;)] ) I really don't remember the type of car because I was trying to read the label, but I don't believe it was a boxcar. Would a grain car need grounding before unloading because of the grain dust? OK guys, jump on this one and educate me ( and everyone else who might want to know). lol

[tree68]

QUOTE: Originally posted by JoeKoh

QUOTE: Originally posted by cherokee woman

Another question: What is "hooping up orders"?

Cw
hooping up orders- Is where a trainmaster or dispathcer would literally put the orders for the trains on a stick with a circle on the end and lift it up to the engineers or conductors window .some stations had poles along the line where the conductor or engineer could grab the orders.
hope this helps.[8D]
stay safe
Joe

And in the days of the caboose, a copy of the orders would also be hooped up there. You can sometimes see train order holders in old pictures of stations. There would be two "stations" on the pole, one for the engine (the upper), one for the caboose.

As for what happens if they miss the pickup - Stop and Back Up...

I have a picture someplace from Rantoul IL. If I can find it, I'll scan and post it.

[tree68]

QUOTE: Originally posted by JoeKoh

QUOTE: Originally posted by cherokee woman

Another question: What is "hooping up orders"?

Cw
hooping up orders- Is where a trainmaster or dispathcer would literally put the orders for the trains on a stick with a circle on the end and lift it up to the engineers or conductors window .some stations had poles along the line where the conductor or engineer could grab the orders.
hope this helps.[8D]
stay safe
Joe

And in the days of the caboose, a copy of the orders would also be hooped up there. You can sometimes see train order holders in old pictures of stations. There would be two "stations" on the pole, one for the engine (the upper), one for the caboose.

As for what happens if they miss the pickup - Stop and Back Up...

I have a picture someplace from Rantoul IL. If I can find it, I'll scan and post it.

[JoeKoh]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cherokee woman

Another question: What is "hooping up orders"?

Cw
hooping up orders- Is where a trainmaster or dispathcer would literally put the orders for the trains on a stick with a circle on the end and lift it up to the engineers or conductors window .some stations had poles along the line where the conductor or engineer could grab the orders.
hope this helps.[8D]
stay safe
Joe

[JoeKoh]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cherokee woman

Another question: What is "hooping up orders"?

Cw
hooping up orders- Is where a trainmaster or dispathcer would literally put the orders for the trains on a stick with a circle on the end and lift it up to the engineers or conductors window .some stations had poles along the line where the conductor or engineer could grab the orders.
hope this helps.[8D]
stay safe
Joe