Railfanning With High Gas Prices -- SMART START--What it is and what it does.

[Anonymous]

Hello All.

Once again I would like to thank everyone who has contributed to this thread.  I would also like to thank you all for not using it as a complaint thread (as the other copycat high price gas thread has been) and for not injecting politics (as the other thread has also done) into the discussion.  Thank you all so very much for helping to keep this thread on topic and for your comments on alternative methods of energy.

The railroads have experimented off and on for many years seeking other methods of fuel other than diesel.  We have seen a variety of experiments tried by both BN (before the BNSF merger) and UP.  So far nothing has given much hope other than the current Green Goats.  I don't think the Green Groats are all that the railroads have hoped they would be either.

As always your comments (not complaints) on this subject are encouraged and welcome.  

 

 

 

 

[eolafan]

Just filled up my tank, which was almost completely dry and paid $3.15 per gallon and the fill up cost me (well, actually my company expense report, heee, heee) $48.48....AAARRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHH!  Thank God for company cars!

[Anonymous]

In my first post on this thread I was saying I was considering trading in my Frontier crewcab for a Scion or a PT cruiser...well I did it got a Scion xB...got tired of feeding the pickup truck.

 

Its as big inside as the Frontier, gets 35mpg, drives like a sports car, is quieter, and so is a really fun car to drive. So now maybe I can start doing more driving trips with my camera...

 

You got an xB? I'm jealous. I've wanted one for a year or two. I might get one later on, when I really need it. What color is it? Any extras on it? Contact me off-list if you want.


Matt

[Anonymous]

I work part time in the Auction House and see those trucks sell like hotcakes.

SUV sales are steady. The nicer ones sell.

We are getting Hybrids into the lot and frankly Im being somewhat converted to some of them. I prefer high performance vehicles with big power; gas cost be damned. But these Hybrids are slowly coming on to the scene and are getting pretty durn good.

Other vehicles like the 300C with the massive V8 and big power will gut itself and run on 4 instead of 8 on the freeway when it senses a chance to save a little gas. I see this in some trucks as well.

I tried hard to stay out of the thread but wanted to state that we as a Nation are going to have to divorce ourselves from Gasoline and Desiel for on road use. Now is the time to do it because it will take us decades to adapt and I dont think we have unlimited oil in the earth.

Where I am there are alot of people with big trucks and large cars. They hardly slowed down during the 3.00 gas last year and show no signs of conserving or curtailing the speed or daily use. I think when we get to 4.50 gas and beyond we will start to feel it as a State and perhaps Nation as a whole.

[Anonymous]

Once again, thanks for all your posts.  Please keep them coming.

Our gas prices again took a hefty increase but I can't right now remember how much.  Premium unleaded, I think, is now $3.10 or $3.12, with regular unleaded approaching $2.90.  Our area is normally one of the cheaper areas also, so it is very possibly that even regular unleaded is $3. a gallon somewhere around here (especially near the interstate off and on ramps).

Now as promised, here is a little info on what railroads are doing, AND have been doing for years to cut back on the use of diesel fuel.

Smart Start is the name of one system that will monitor many factors and shut down an ideling diesel engine.  Some of the things it monitors are the battery, air brake pressure, and outside air temp.  The outside air temp must be above a certain degree or the system will not shut down the unit, this prevents the unit from freezing in cold weather.  Another important item it monitors is the air brake pressure.  If the unit is shut down and the air brake pressure falls below a set mininum then the system will start the engine so the compressor can recharge the air and bring it back up.  (It is not hard to find a gladhand with a leaking gasket thus loosing a small amount of air which eventually will cause the system to loose air and need recharging.)   Smart Start will also monitor the battery and if the battery drops too low then the system will start the engine to recharge the battery.

All of the new widecabs have a system which will do this.  The name may not be Smart Start but most of the systems by any name will monitor these major items and shut down or restart the engine when needed.  Many of the older engines, when they receive an overhaul, get equipped with a Smart Start (or another brand) system.  Thus even 30 or 40 year old engines now also have the same capability.  This feature does save the railroads a lot of money on diesel fuel.  On engines which do not have the feature, the railroads would like the employees to shut down motors which will not be used in a reasonable amount of time. 

 

[chicagorails]

ethonol is good, a temporary solution to a permanet problem, feeding internal combustion poluting engines.
  what happens when a big drought occurs in the corn belt? no ethnol,back to oil.
  the big companies like adm, will controll prices like exon does now.
  will you trade a hamburger for a gallon of ethnol?  cows  vs  cars,compete for corn.
  
   and the cars keep on polluting,eating away ozone, melting the north,south ice caps.


answer is clear,cleam.    hydrogen vehicles, solar, battery you charge at home or plug in at mc donalds,or on road charges off hood,trunk,solar cells.  plug in at walmart.  lowes.   while you are shopping your car is charging.  while you eat,car charging.

how safe is a 100 unit train of ethonol? if one car crashes they all go, chain heaction? a whole town whiped out,ouch!!

[Anonymous]

Thanks Greg.  Your post is just what we need.  It shows you did something to try and help.  Every bit helps.

 

 

[Anonymous]

I've been toying with writing editorials to the paper on this same subject for some time now. But for now I think this forum will do.

I think there's way too many people out there that forget the very fundamentals of economics when it comes to fuel. Supply vs Demand. If you use more, the price will go up. If you use less, the price will go down. I specifically remember hearing a bit on the radio not too long ago. A guy called in and basically stuck up for the big SUV's because "he could afford it". He said that his salary was over 6 figures a year and that he had no problem filling up his Escalade. What killed me was the comment he made basically stating that "See what a higher education can afford you to do?" That struck a nerve in me because this moron was only painting a self portrait of his stupidity. If that higher education had taught him anything it'd be that just because he has the money to afford to be able to drive a gas-guzzler, if he used less fuel, prices would drop and he could spend that money on other, more desirable things. Not only that, other people would have money to be able to buy the goods/services that his company offers and he'd ultimitely be even richer, right? (I don't know what he does for a living, but as an assumption...)

Now, back to the topic of the thread, railfanning. I drive a '99 Ranger that is flex-fuel capable and unlike many people I bet, I actually use that feature. Starting last summer when the first E85 gas station opened up here in town I started using it in my truck. At that time E85 was $.30 cheaper than regular so the comparison in price/mileage was close. I continued to use it until about December when I couldn't get my truck to start one day. I believe it was because the ethonal froze, but I'm not sure. I don't know the freezing point compared to gasoline, but thats my assumption. After the truck sat in the sun for a day, I finally got it to start and I went back to gasoline for the rest of the winter. Once the spring weather hit I decided to go back to E85 for awhile. Prices had gone up since last year and I was now paying the same for ethenol as I would gasoline. But money wasn't my point. I figure that if I use the fuel, Ethenol companies would see the demand for the ethenol and eventually produce it cheaper until it was far more financially reasonable to use it instead of gasoline.

I have however stopped using ethonal because it has had some bad side effects on my truck. More often than not I get a bad sputtering and a real lack of acceleration. I believe that is what fouled up my spark plugs so bad last year that it would hardly start. But I still believe the technology is there and it's a great thing to invest in.

As for railfanning. Well, I certainly don't go on as many trips as I used to although thats because of a lack of time more than anything. But when I am tooling around town looking for trains, I usually try to pick one place and sit there. I know people that constantly move around checking out lighting and locations for each train, coming back to the same locations many times. All that does is burn gas. Just find a good spot and stay there. Maybe have a plan to end up at a certain place. I just go along from one spot to the next down the line until I'm there, rather than hopscotching all over the place. And chasing trains is never a good idea when you're trying to cut back on fuel. Lots of quick starts/stops, exessive speeding to get ahead of the 60mph train. We all know there's been those times where we've looked like the officers on Cops, weaving in and out of traffic, flying across fields and small creeks  and driving 110mph trying to chase down a train. I am going to Illionois next week with a friend to explore the BNSF Chilli sub for a couple days. But instead of taking my truck which would allow us to cross-country if needed and get into other places a car can't, we're taking his Accord, which gets close to 30mpg I believe, rather than my truck which is closer to 20-23 on the highway, 18 when railfanning. It's simple things like that that can cut down on railfanning costs and also help the economy at the same time.

-Greg Lavoie
Webmaster
www.fwarailfan.net

[vsmith]

Jim one reason I traded the truck is was specificly this reason, Gas hitting $4 or higher before years end. At 35mpg at least I'll be in better shape, I currently CAN afford the truck I had, even at $50 a tank, but I have a nasty habit of paying attention to whats going on, and the notion that I had better get rid of the truck while it still had a high bluebook resale was a big motivating factor. If gas hits $4, which I'm sure it will, suddenly that $50 is closer to $70, and if your driving a big SUV or Pickup you could be looking at anywhere from $80 to $100 a tank. If it goes to $5? well thats going to be a real killer for most people. there was a story out here about people selling belongings at the pawn shop to get gas money, thats getting scary! Of course the story didnt point out just what they were driving. I can guess though, all you have to do is watch the used car dealer infomercials here, almost everything their pushing is the big SUVs, and they've been selling them for dirt cheap! a 2001 Tahoe for only $8K?

 

What gets me is that even at $3.30 a gallon people are still clinging like grim death to their giant SUVs. I predict next summer gas will get to $4 and stay there, Detroit will collapse into a black hole of bankruptcy, Ford and Diamler/Chrysler might survive by quickly importing high milage models from Euorpe, but GM will try to survive by paying people to buy their now obsolete giant SUVs and monster pickup trucks. I see a HUGE decade of disaster for GM leading to either bankruptcy and the end of Americas largest manufactuerer led to demise by its own hubris, and inability to adapt. -or- we'll suddenly see all these high milage and "new" technology vehicles (like a 300mile range EV1) that they've been sitting on for decades suddenly hit the market and save them from the brink.

 

Time will tell.

[Anonymous]

NBC 15 in Madison recently did a test of straight gas vs. E10 in a stock Ford F250, the results were quite surprising in that the truck used less E10 than straight gasoline.  The testing body did point out that this could vary from vehicle to vehicle.

I certainly don't have all the answers, I am not sure I have even one of them.  However, the point of my railfanning and high gas prices threads have been to encourage discussion and seek to encourage use and developement of alternative methods of energy NOT just to complain about the high prices of gas.  Two years ago when I introduced the first high price gas thread several people had to jump in and start other high price gas threads.  Last year the same thing happened, just as now it is happening again.  I am not sure what purpose having multiple threads on the same issue accomplishes, other than robbing post and comments from the original thread.

High gas prices are here to stay.  That is what the oil companies wanted, and that is what they are getting.  Back in 2004 I posted about the $3 a gallon mark that was coming, and it certainly did.  In the same post I also pointed out that the next target the oil companies were headed for was $5 a gallon.  I don't think we will see $5 a gallon this year.  However, I certainly think we might see $4 a gallon before the summer driving season is over.  It might be short lived, but I think we might see it.  Any bad weather in the Gulf will certainly help bring about the $4 a gallon mark just as Kitrina did for the $3 a gallon price. 

Next summer, Katy bar the door.  Who knows at this point. 

Now my question to you forum members is this.  What are you doing to help converse gas/oil?  What are you doing to help encourage alternative methods of energy? 

In the next few days I will rehash some of the things the railroads are doing to conserve fuel.  My railfanning and high gas price threads  are and  were more than just complaints, they are/were means of educating the forum member on these topics.  We can all certainly learn together.  

Keep checking in, and please post if you can add something useful to the current topics.

 

 

[rvos1979]

NBC 15 in Madison recently did a test of straight gas vs. E10 in a stock Ford F250, the results were quite surprising in that the truck used less E10 than straight gasoline.  The testing body did point out that this could vary from vehicle to vehicle.

[Modelcar]

Not sure from all that I've read on Ethanol that it's reduced milage in a given vehicle and price comparison is giving us much of an advantage by using it as far as the price goes....It of course would allow us to use a supply of fuel that we create right here at home.  That is an advantage.

[Anonymous]

Thanks all for the comments to the thread. 

My dad has said for years that there was a carburetor developed many years ago that would get 50 mph, but the auto makers bought the patent and surpressed it.  Considering they can get at least 35 now why not 50?

Here is the next and last question and answer on Ethanol.

 

Why not eliminate the tariffs?

Well, the idea behind the tariffs is to foster domestic production of ethanol. But amid the ongoing furor over high gas prices the idea of repealing the levy has gained momentum in Washington. Though it would probably annoy ethanol producers like agricultural giant Archer Daniels Midland, removing the tariffs could have some benefits. It would help ease price pressures and would likely encourage Brazil to boost its ethanol production. However, it's probably not a short-term solution.

Brazil is undergoing an ethanol revolution far more drastic than that in the U.S. Flex-fuel cars which can run solely on ethanol are widely available and the ethanol supply is short enough that the government recently reduced the mandatory ethanol content in gasoline from 25% to 20%.

[vsmith]

In my first post on this thread I was saying I was considering trading in my Frontier crewcab for a Scion or a PT cruiser...well I did it got a Scion xB...got tired of feeding the pickup truck.

 

Its as big inside as the Frontier, gets 35mpg, drives like a sports car, is quieter, and so is a really fun car to drive. So now maybe I can start doing more driving trips with my camera...

 

PS Talking about cars and milage...

 

I recommend a movie that will show you how promising technology can be absolutly crushed by the status quo.... "Who Killed The Electric Car" is a fascinating documentry looking at the EV1 how it was built by a research wing of GM and what caused it to be not only removed from the road, but crushed and shreaded to remove all trace of it by an industry suddenly very frightened by the new technology that could have in a few years posed a serious contender to the gas engine. I wasn't a fan of electrics before, I've driven a few of them and yes the limited range was serious drawback, but the long term potential was definetly there. After seeing this, I was surprised, but not shocked, at the myriad of forces that doomed these cars...watch it and you'll understand why Japan still has the American market firmly in their grip and why GM may go the way of the Studebaker in a couple years...

 

If you cant make it to the theater, keep an eye out for it at the Blockbuster in the next couple months.

[Modelcar]

...It's almost impossible to speculate what crude prices will be down the road....Look at the political mess we have in the mid east now...Will it be stopped, will it escalulate into all out war....Iraq.....Iran....So many variables out there now.  No way of knowing.  Right now, it sure doesn't seem good for a good normal cycle going forward.  We sure hope this fighting mess can be quickly stopped before it ruins the world economy.  Of course all the personal disruptions, loss of life, etc....Terrible.

[Anonymous]

I JUST HEARD ON CNBC THAT THE PRICE OF CRUDE COULD GO AS HIGH AS $200.00 DOLLARS A BARREL WITH IN THE NEXT 3 TO 5 YEARS WHICH COULD PUT GAS PRICES UP WELL OVER $10.00 TO $15.00 A GALLON. ALLAN.

[n012944]

Go back to the original Railfanning and High Gas Price thread which was started over 2 years ago and check out the prices listed in it.  Don't just consider what gas prices were last year, but take into account what they were 2 years ago.  Right now, people are having to make hard choices when considering gas prices and other things which they need.   

 

Saw something on the news last week that said Americans are paying 355 million dollars more a DAY for gas than they were 3 years ago.

 

 

Bert

[zinker]

I haven't had time yet to read this entire thread, but I do have a resource that may be of interest. This is;

<http://permaculture.com> - "alcohol can be a gas".

Their FAQ is worth reading.

http://permaculture.com/alcohol/faqs.shtml

I heard an interview with David Bloome from permaculture.com on a radio talk show a few weeks ago and he made a lot of sense to me.

It should be noted that this is a very politically charged issue. The very first post on this thread which bemoaned the injection of politics into the discussion was itself pretty political. It would be impossible to discuss this intelligently without getting into the politics of energy policy. I could only hope that the discussion stays reasoned and intelligent - regardless of the viewpoints raised.

[james saunders]

.....James:  I've not said hello on here to you yet....We're in central Indiana, USA and enjoy hearing the news from down under.  So our greetings from Muncie.

Quentin

 

Thanks for the greetings i look forward to conversing more

Regards,

[sarahd]

LOOKING AT EVERYONES RESPONSE I HAVE TO ADMIT I'VE GOT IT PRETTY GOOD;MY JOB TAKES ME DOWN OLD ROUTE 66 EVERYDAY,MY COMPANY PAYS THE GAS ON THE VEHICLE I DRIVE AND I GET TO WATCH ALL THE TRAINS GOING BY ON THE BNSF MAINLINE. I DRIVE A TRANSIT BUS OUT TO SILVER LAKES WHICH IS FIFTEEN MILES OUT OF VICTORVILLE,CA HALFWAY TO BARSTOW. MANY TIMES I HAVE EXTRA TIME SO I CAN SIT BY THE MAINLINE AND WAIT FOR THE TRAINS. ITS REALLY COOL,SINCE I AM NOT TOO BUSY AND IN ORO GRANDE I ALMOST ALWAYS GET CAUGHT AT THE CROSSING WAITING FOR A TRAIN.THEN THOSE BNSF TRAINS ALWAYS ALOT OF THEM,THANKS TO MY JOB I CAN RAILFAN AND CRUISE WITH THE TRAINS EVERYDAY. GAS AT 3.31 A GALLON;TOO MUCH.

[CNW534]

I have a Ford Explorer Sport Trac with a 4.0 litre V-6.  It takes exactly one 15-gallon tank to get to Rochelle and another to get back home.

I thought I'd try a tank of E85.  It was 20% cheaper than regular unleaded.  I had to stop in Janesville to fill up.  I got 25% less MPG with the E85.  It ended up costing me MORE for cheaper fuel.

Mark

[Modelcar]

.....James:  I've not said hello on here to you yet....We're in central Indiana, USA and enjoy hearing the news from down under.  So our greetings from Muncie.

Quentin

[james saunders]

Friday morning fuel was $A1.369 a LITRE, and that afternoon it was $1.225 a LITRE, explain that. and as I believe that is about $6.50USD. maybe more?

[Modelcar]

....Another glitz.....I just had to write the post above twice as the first time I tried to send it I got...."SERVICE UNAVAILABLE''....and then lost it of course and had to re do it....

Quentin

[Modelcar]

.....I noted too we don't see any more of his posts.

Quentin

[chad thomas]

Quentin,

I don't know if Mark is still in Iraq, but I did notice all his posts disapeared again.

[Modelcar]

Yes, Jim and the gasoline price side of it is increasing too....Just last evening crude reached 78 plus dollars a bbl and already today {this morning}, here in Muncie it went to 3.00 a gal for N L Regular.

So I hate to imagine just where it really is headed.  Now especially with the new unrest and almost complete breakout of new fighting in that area {mid east}, once again....It looks to me at least for a while like we're on the way up in price....maybe close to 4 bucks a gal.  We don't know how far ranging this mid east fighting might extend once again.  So crude up....stocks down....That's not too good for incumbents in an election year.  Not good for anyone.

Quentin.

PS....Anyone know if M. Hemphill is still in Iraq....?

[Anonymous]

Go back to the original Railfanning and High Gas Price thread which was started over 2 years ago and check out the prices listed in it.  Don't just consider what gas prices were last year, but take into account what they were 2 years ago.  Right now, people are having to make hard choices when considering gas prices and other things which they need. 

I hope people view this thread as a way to teach about the current alternatives which are available now.  We must do more than we are currently doing to lower our dependence upon oil.  As more and more people look to Hybird vehicles their cost will come down and be more affordable.  I will definately consider one in another year or two when I look to replace my current 97 Ford Ranger.

And now for today question and answer about Ethanol.

 

Is ethanol cheaper than gas?

Surprise, surprise, it isn't. The move this spring by more regions to use ethanol means that demand has spiked, driving up prices. On Monday, the New York harbor price was around $3 per gallon compared with about $2.28 for gasoline (before being mixed with ethanol). In other words, for now ethanol is helping to increase prices at the pump, not to push them down.

So ethanol production and distribution are also controlled by market forces, right? Only to a certain degree. In addition to heavily subsidizing the ethanol produced domestically, the U.S. government levies a 54 cent per gallon tariff on imports from other countries, such as Brazil, a lower-cost producer. This, of course, discourages the U.S. from importing cheaper ethanol.

 

 

[Anonymous]

Naa. Higher gas prices mean that the public will drive much less. And won't spend as much as they use to. I for one thing I have already cut back on my Railfanning by 90%. Allan.

[chicagorails]

well these higher oil prices spell one thing for rrs and thats more buisness
 if oil reaches 100 dollars a barrell, will the rrs be able to handle a 25% or more increase in truck trailer and domestic container traffic??   whats the limit the average double tracks mainline rrs can handle in 24 hours?  100? 125? 150? 175? 200? ....................time to tripple track!!!

[spbed]

Well last year if gas was $2.40 per gallon & now it is $3.00 that is a difference of $0.60 per gallon which mean for every 10 gallons you buy it cost only $6.00 more then it did last year. If you have say a car that gets you 20 miles per gallon then you can go 200 miles before filling up again. I would think most rail fanners do there rail fanning near there home so I would say for a big $6.00 bucks more then last year they can still railfan. Even if you do 1,000 miles your additional cost would be only $50.00 more vs last year. 2,000 miles would be $100.00 more then last year.based on my equation 

[chicagorails]

things are heating up again in the mideast, and north korea and iran and lebanon and isriel are not getting along so this spells higher oil prices on the market. go solar.

[Anonymous]

The current news is reporting that oil is topping $76 a barrel.  I expect we will see a rise in the price of gas by tomorrow night at midnight.  How much?  My guess is anywhere between 1 to 3 cents a gallon.  Currently in my local area our prices range from $2.81 for regular unleaded to $3.04 for premium unleaded. 

And now for the next installment in the guestions and answers about Ethanol.

 

So where can I find ethanol?

There's a good chance you're using it already. It's mixed into gas in many regions of the country including the corn-belt Midwest, and states like California and New York which had already banned MTBE. The regions making the transition this spring are the Northeast and parts of Texas.

Cars in the U.S. can normally drive on E10, a mixture of 10% ethanol and 90% gasoline, that is sometimes called gasohol. It's how Americans usually take their ethanol. Relatively few cars available here are "flex-fuel," meaning that they can run on much higher concentrations of ethanol. The fuel E85, which is 85% ethanol, is sold at some gas stations concentrated in the Midwest.

 

 

[Anonymous]

Here is today's question and answer. This deals with what modelcar was talking about yesterday. [^]



Doesn't producing ethanol on a large scale use a great deal of energy?


Yes. Some ethanol skeptics have even argued that the process involved in growing grain and then transforming it into ethanol requires more energy from fossil fuels than ethanol generates. In other words, they say the whole movement is a farce.

There's no absolute consensus in the scientific community, but that argument is losing strength. Michael Wang, a scientist at the Energy Dept.-funded Argonne National Laboratory for Transportation Research, says "The energy used for each unit of ethanol produced has been reduced by about half [since 1980]." Now, Wang says, the delivery of 1 million Briti***hermal units (BTUs) of ethanol uses 0.74 million BTUs of fossil fuels. (That does not include the solar energy -- the sun shining -- used in growing corn.) By contrast, he finds that the delivery of 1 million BTUs of gasoline requires 1.23 million BTU of fossil fuels.

Producing ethanol could get more efficient soon as new technologies help farmers get more corn per acre of land and allow ethanol producers to get more of the fuel from the same amount of corn. The companies developing new corn technologies include chemical giant Dupont and Monsanto, which sells genetically modified seeds as well as chemicals for protecting crops.

[zugmann]

And a lot of thsoe articles use old data from the 1970s....

Every new plant built today is more efficient. And on the plus side, the source is easily renewable. (can't say that with oil)

Subsidize a farmer or subsidize a Saudi.

[Modelcar]

...There doesn't seem to be any easy answers for our high price of fuel Jim.....I've read articles that it requires almost as much energy to create ethanol as can be benefited from it. Understand vehicles using it produce less mpg too.....
Our N L gasoline reg. price {last evening}, was still at 3.09.....and Diesel at some places was the same amount. They are getting us conditioned when we {if ever}, find prices at say...2.75, will make us ru***o it believing they have a bargin for us.

[Anonymous]

I noticed that our prices went up 2 cents a gallon about 3 days ago. Now we are at $2.81 for regular unleaded and $3.01 for premium unleaded. I have a feeling this time it won't drop like it did last time. I think we are stuck at this price or even more for the rest of the summer.

Does anyone know if the gas reserves that were promised to be released have been released ??? [?] I would think if they have that our price would have come down some.

Now for the next question and answer.



Are there any problems with ethanol?


Oh, yes. Ethanol can't travel in pipelines along with gasoline, because it picks up excess water and impurities. As a result, ethanol needs to be transported by trucks, trains, or barges, which is more expensive and complicated than sending it down a pipeline. As refiners switched to ethanol this spring, the change in transport needs has likely contributed to the rise in gas prices. Some experts argue that the U. S. doesn't have adequate infrastructure for wide ethanol use.

Also, ethanol contains less energy than gas. That means drivers have to make more frequent trips to the pump.

[Anonymous]

Here is the next question and answer. I hope as we do these that we do learn something. [;)]



Beyond high gas prices, why is everyone talking about ethanol?


It's becoming an increasingly important part of the fuel supply, and has the potential to become still more crucial. President George W. Bush and members of Congress have expressed support for ethanol use. And this spring, refiners in parts of Texas and the Northeast have been replacing a gasoline additive called MTBE (for methyl tertiary-butyl ether) with ethanol. MTBE, a chemical used to oxygenate fuel, can contaminate drinking water. Ethanol, which does not present the same danger, can serve the same purpose in fuel.

That's not all. The 2005 energy bill requires that the U.S. boost its ethanol production to 7.5 billion gallons by 2012, up from about 4 billion in 2005. This sounds like a whole lot of ethanol, but bear in mind, last year the U.S. slurped up almost 140 billion gallons of gas.

[Anonymous]

How much energy is used to distill Alcolhol Vs the net amount recived?

I mean you use fertiliser derived from oil to grow the corn,,,energy to pump water to irrigate the corn,,,tractor fuel to harvest the corn. Diesal to power the trucks and the trains to deliver it and natural gas to boil and distill the beer into ethonal...
Now you have to use more diesal to power the Unit trains to deliver the Fuel to a tank terminal and then tanker trucks to get it to the gas station....When do you break even?

Oil in tractors to harvest the corn

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by chicagorails




takes 3 gallons water to process i gallon eth. some towns fighting plants from being built cause of fear of low water tables and drought.


i dont see any problems with the use of solar cars. they had solar vehicles on the moon so why not here? answer, the oil billionares want to stay billionares!!![:(]

This question does mention that the water is seperated from the alcohol mix. What is then done with the water I don't know. However, it possible could be used again there in the process.

I agree with your second statement. THAT is exactly why nothing has been done much more than lip service from our elected officials for the last 30 some years.


Here is today's segment for the questions and answers. The source was an AOL News Article.



What exactly is ethanol?


The fuel is derived from plants through a fairly straightforward process. In one common method, corn is first ground into a fine powder, mixed with water, and then heated. An enzyme is then added to convert the mixture into sugars before yeast is added to ferment it. The resulting liquid, called "beer," is about 10% alcohol. A distillation process then separates the alcohol from the rest of the mixture before the remaining water is removed. The result is essentially pure alcohol. A small amount of gas is added to render the liquid undrinkable. Then the fuel can be used by itself or as a supplement to gasoline to power cars.

Ethanol has three advantages, at least in theory: It's renewable, it can be domestically produced, and it burns cleaner than gas. The world's largest producers of ethanol are the U.S., which makes it primarily from corn, and Brazil, which mashes the stuff out of sugarcane.

[Trainmaster.Curt]

Well, i don't have a liscense or a car. But i do have a trusty Italian Fiori bicycle, and the CPR main line and the CEMR Pine Junction are all in biking distance(Was just railfanning there today), and the CNR main line is biking distance from my place. Plus many buses in Winnipeg run close to rail routes, so i am lucky. But i guess for the rural country railfan, a car is a must.

[Modelcar]

We're at prices now that almost a year ago they were using excuses such as "it's the fault of Katrina, etc....}. We all know what some of the reasonings are....and it's not supply and demand. Just two weeks or so ago we were purchasing N Leaded here for 51 cents a gal less then today....!!!!

[Anonymous]

I noticed last week that our gas prices went back up and we lost EVERYTHING that was gained over the last month or so. We are again at $2.79 for regular unleaded and $2.99 for premium unleaded. I will have to look tomorrow and see what our price has jumped to now.

Isn't it funny how QUICKLY the prices will rise on bad news but good news seems to have little effect upon lowering the higher prices? !

[Modelcar]

Right...crude today was a bit over 75 dollars a bbl.....and gasoline price here in central Indiana is now 3.09....Diesel: 3.09

[Anonymous]

I just hearn that crude hit an all time high of $75. Gas prices are up too $3.oo now.

[chicagorails]

about 100 plants operating now, with around 50 or more being built and in early stages.

will there be enough corn for cows and cars?? more farm land is being gobbled up by suburbs and malls.

what if there is a bad drought?? no corn, back to oil.

takes 3 gallons water to process i gallon eth. some towns fighting plants from being built cause of fear of low water tables and drought.

i dont see any problems with the use of solar cars. they had solar vehicles on the moon so why not here? answer, the oil billionares want to stay billionares!!![:(]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jhhtrainsplanes

Here is some info about companies who are developing ethanol.

http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/jun2006/nf20060612_5577_db016.htm?campaign_id=search


Currently ethanol is not reducing the price or demand for gas/oil. Some articles I have read said it is actually jacking the price up some. [:0]

I hope to post some more info on ethanol in the next few days that will give us more info about it.

I don't use ethanol anymore. Regular unleaded is cheaper.

[Anonymous]

I hear that the china thing is causeing gas prices to severely go up.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jhhtrainsplanes

Here is some info about companies who are developing ethanol.

http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/jun2006/nf20060612_5577_db016.htm?campaign_id=search


Currently ethanol is not reducing the price or demand for gas/oil. Some articles I have read said it is actually jacking the price up some. [:0]

I hope to post some more info on ethanol in the next few days that will give us more info about it.

OK

I am going to start the info I promised but just have not had time to post. I have a series of questions and some answers about ethanol that are interesting. You can make your own judgement on ethanol after reading the info I will post.

Here we go.

High gas prices are making other fuels increasingly attractive, one alternative fuel that has received much attention is ethanol. Some hail ethanol, which can be derived from many plants including corn, wheat, barley and sugarcane, as a savior of American energy policy, while others see it as a fad popularized by its heavily subsidized corporate backers.

The reality is complex. Though still a tiny industry compared to gas, ethanol could become a more prominent part of the U.S. and world fuel supply in coming years.

Still, as ethanol's public profile rises, there's plenty of misinformation swirling around and a host of questions. What exactly is ethanol? How is it made and used? And is it really a viable alternative to gas? Here's what you need to know now.

I will start the questions tomorrow. [;)]

[Modelcar]

...One more thought....Initial cost of vehicle is higher. {The diesel one}.

[Murphy Siding]

Originally posted by Simon Reed

The price of diesel does'nt seem to factor into this thread. I realise that you American chaps don't tend to go for diesel autos. Could anyone explain why, out of curiosity?

Simon: Diesels don't really like colder weather. In the northern climes,we have blended fuel.#2 #1 diesel, to keep from jellying

Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.

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