What happen to Milwaukee Road?

[erikem]

Cadotte Pass is about five miles north of Rogers Pass on the Continental Divide. It was the historic crossing of the Divide in the area. The old Pacific Railroad surveys all included it as a probable crossing and when one of the surveyors, Isaac Stevens, came back later as Governor of the Washington Territory, he proclaimed the creation of the Washington Territory as he stood on its eastern boundary and looked west from Cadotte Pass.

The USGS maps show Cadotte Pass to be 2 miles NNW of Rogers Pass (where highway 200 crosses the Continental Divide). It is at the upper right hand corner of the Cadotte Creek 7.5 minute Topo.

Looks like Cadotte Pass would not have been practical without some sort of tunnel - my eyeballing the topo suggests that a 3 to3.5 mile tunnel would have allowed for crossing the divide with a maximum elevation of 5,000 feet and mild grades. A much shorter tunnel would have been possible with steeper grades and/or a lot of curvature. Coupled with a 5 mile tunnel under St Paul Pass, this would have made for a nice low grade crossing of Montana.

Would have been interesting to know if the Milwaukee was planning to electrify the Cadotte Pass line if it had been built - and a long tunnel under the pass would have been easier with electricity rather than steam. A related question is whether it would have made sense to extend the electrification on the line between Melstone and Harlowton - perhaps extending it to the division point of Miles City?

[MichaelSol]

In 1879 and 1880, Milwaukee made surveys from Chamberlain and Evarts, South Dakota through Wyoming, past Salt Lake, to Eureka and to San Francisco, California, but those were the last I am aware of.

[Anonymous]

I'm curious, did Milwaukee ever have it's sights set on entry into California like the GN?

[MichaelSol]

QUOTE: Originally posted by kenneo

Is Cadette Pass the same place as what the USGS maps show as Rogers Pass which goes from the Blackfoot River to the Dearborn (I think that is the name -- it also has a road over it, I think) River to the Sun River.

Anyway, I can't seem to find a Cadette Pass.

And would the MILW have gone North from Clearwater, MT, at the end of track of the Blackfoot River Line, basically following Montana 83 up through Swan Lake, Kalispell, then along Montana 424 to US 93, then Northwest to Eureka and on into Canada towards Elko and Cranbrook BC??????

Cadotte Pass is about five miles north of Rogers Pass on the Continental Divide. It was the historic crossing of the Divide in the area. The old Pacific Railroad surveys all included it as a probable crossing and when one of the surveyors, Isaac Stevens, came back later as Governor of the Washington Territory, he proclaimed the creation of the Washington Territory as he stood on its eastern boundary and looked west from Cadotte Pass.

GN had looked at Cadoltte several times for a mountain crossing as did NP, UP, Soo, CP, and Milwaukee. Indeed, GN engineer P.S. Hervin had suggested the Pass to Milwaukee's C.A. Goodnow, and so Goodnow sent a team of surveyors up there.

Records suggest that Milwaukee had looked at two routes north to Canada in this area.

By the Fall of 1912, Milwaukee survey crews had located a line from Bonner, Montana up the Big Blackfoot and Swan Rivers to Kalispell and up the North Fork of the Flathead River to the Canadian border [Letter, P.S. Hervin to Hogeland, October 15, 1912. Great Northern Archives] and to the proposed South East Kootenay Railroad, and eventually to the Canadian Pacific. [Great Falls Leader “Milwaukee Plans Within Great Falls,” September 19, 1912. “It is hoped to start next year on the Missoula-Kalispell-Fernie line. The Canadian Pacific will be let into Montana over Milwaukee rails from Fernie.”]

The first route, following the Swan River valley and then up the North Fork, not only had a final survey filed but the ROW was purchased and shows on 1918 Valuation studies.

That complicated land transactions in the Swan for over half a century. Realtors had to disclose that "not only are you purchasing this beautiful meadow, towering trees, cascading brooks, herds of dancing deer, magnificent elk, and wily bear, and a wonderful site for your mountain cabin, but you also have a mainline Right of Way of the Chicago, MIlwaukee, St. Paul & Pacific Railroad Company going right smack through the middle of it all."

The MILW finally sold the ROW off in the early 1970s. The entire valley had been holding its collective breath for years and years, and there was a great sigh of relief.

[kenneo]

This stuff about the WIM is interesting.

The UP built North from Huntington to Halfway down the Snake. Idaho Power put the entire line under water with its dams. This would ahve been the cost effective route to operate freight trains since it is one steady grade of a couple of hundred miles to descend about 2,000 feet instead of going over Burnt River, Telocast and Blue Mountain as they do now. They still could use most of that route by either following the Powder River from North Powder down to Halfway and then to the Snake and North or continue on over Telocast as they do now, but hang a right at Union and go down the Grand Ronde River to the Snake and then North -- which would eliminate the Blue Mountains. The Joseph Branch is still in place for about 1/2 the distance down the Grande Ronde.

[kenneo]

Is Cadette Pass the same place as what the USGS maps show as Rogers Pass which goes from the Blackfoot River to the Dearborn (I think that is the name -- it also has a road over it, I think) River to the Sun River.

Anyway, I can't seem to find a Cadette Pass.

And would the MILW have gone North from Clearwater, MT, at the end of track of the Blackfoot River Line, basically following Montana 83 up through Swan Lake, Kalispell, then along Montana 424 to US 93, then Northwest to Eureka and on into Canada towards Elko and Cranbrook BC??????

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by MichaelSol

Well, the "Park" line was Potlatch, and the Elk River line was Milwaukee.

I do recall that Potlatch had talked about an extension south into the Clearwater country, but that surveys had found the terrain "too rugged." Milwaukee had surveyed past Elk River, down Elk Creek into the Clearwater. A Potlatch predecessor, the Clearwater Timber Co. filed a survey in 1909 to build the "Orofino & Eastern RR" to buid north from Orofino to connect with the Milwaukee at Bovill. Weyerhausers were involved, and Charles Weyerhauser had wanted to build "a big dam" over the North Fork of the Clearwater, and extend the Milwaukee Road from Elk River over the dam to Orofino.

Another survey was done in 1918-1919, and a Milwaukee engineer, J.A. Chamberlain, estimated in 1922 that a 41 mile mainline could be built for $2.7 million, presumably from Elk River. I drove that route about 30 years ago, and it looked practical.

During the 1920s, however, management at CTC was going through a period of "musical Weyerhausers" and although a RR was built to Lewiston, the Depression hit and CTC was folded into Potlatch.

Well, that's interesting. Thanks for looking that information up for me Mike. Elk Creek does drain into the North Fork, which confluences with the Clearwater just west of Orofino. And there is a "big dam" now, Dworshak Dam, on the North Fork near the confluence. I suppose one could have run a railroad over such a dam, but I don't know that such would have been necessary to achieve a decent railroad guage from Elk River down to the Clearwater.

If Weyerhauser was envisioning a dam similar to Dworshak, then you have a 600 foot high dam about 6 miles west of Orofino. That would have meant a 100 foot to the mile climb from Orofino to the dam crest, about a 2% climb, not to bad. Then of course you're across the river to the west side of the Canyon, which is the prefered side for building a railroad from the Clearwater to Elk River. So from the dam top at 1600' elevation to Elk River at 2900' elevation is a gain of 1300' elevation with 20 miles of grade at about 65' feet to the mile, about 1.3% grade, pretty decent. Contrasted with a grade starting at river level to Elk River, about 2000' at 20 miles is 100 feet to the mile or 2% grade. So I'm not sure why Weyerhauser thought a railline over such a dam would be necessary, unless he was envisioning something farther up the canyon, perhaps near today's Dent Bridge.

The larger question would be - Why build from Elk River to Orofino at all? What would be the end game there? On the Blackfoot Branch and the Great Falls branch you had a potential second mainline over Cadette Pass. On the Seely line, you had a tapping into Canadian coalfields and a possible connection with the CP. The Elk River branch itself tapped some prime timber country. But what did Orofino offer? Orofino is dry rocky country. Potlatch and it's associated predessessors had no mill there, although Potlatch did own lots of timberland east of Orofino north of the Weippe Prairie, and they did build a mill in Jaype in the 1920's which was reached by the 4th sub of the Camas Prairie Railroad owned by NP and UP. Did Milwaukee covet the grain fields of the Camas Prairie south of Orofino (which would have required another long up grade to reach the prairie)? Or did they envision running a line along the Clearwater west to Lewiston, and perhaps the south bank of the Snake River to the Tri-Cities and Hanford (where Milwaukee already had a branch from Beverly at the foot of the Boylston grade)?

However, knowing the geology of both the Elk Creek/North Fork canyons and the Potlatch River canyon, I don't see much difference in "difficulty" as far as construction goes, but at least the Potlatch River canyon is more direct to Lewiston (about 40 miles as the canyon goes), and one could still build from there up to the Camas Prairie, or build on down through Hell's Canyon south to the Treasure Valley and a UP connnection. The Elk River line from St. Maries to Bovill only has one short section of steep grade at Sherwin Summit (2.5%), while the line east from Bovill to Elk River runs over three distinct summits with 3% grades. A line from Bovill down to Lewiston would be ideal by comparison, e.g. a straight shot down. If the end game was Lewiston and either west to Hanford and/or south to the Camas Prairie or Southern Idaho, why would the railroad burden itself with a very difficult operating environment via Elk River?

[MichaelSol]

Well, the "Park" line was Potlatch, and the Elk River line was Milwaukee.

I do recall that Potlatch had talked about an extension south into the Clearwater country, but that surveys had found the terrain "too rugged." Milwaukee had surveyed past Elk River, down Elk Creek into the Clearwater. A Potlatch predecessor, the Clearwater Timber Co. filed a survey in 1909 to build the "Orofino & Eastern RR" north from Orofino to connect with the Milwaukee at Bovill. Weyerhausers were involved, and Charles Weyerhauser had wanted to build "a big dam" over the North Fork of the Clearwater, and extend the Milwaukee Road from Elk River over the dam to Orofino.

Another survey was done in 1918-1919, and a Milwaukee engineer, J.A. Chamberlain, estimated in 1922 that a 41 mile mainline could be built for $2.7 million, presumably from Elk River. I drove that route about 30 years ago, and it looked practical.

During the 1920s, however, management at CTC was going through a period of "musical Weyerhausers" and although a RR was built to Lewiston, the Depression hit and CTC was folded into Potlatch.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by MichaelSol

The WI&M operated from the Milwaukee at Bovill, south to Forks, then swung west to Palouse. The "Park" line left the WI&M about half way between Bovill and Forks and headed south towards Park and had a wandering operation in the hills south of Park and Elk River. That line was built by Morrison Knudsen for Potlatch Co. in 1929. Milwaukee operated its own line from Bovill to Elk River.

WI&M was owned by Potlatch until 1961, when Milwaukee Road had moved ahead of an NP/GN effort to gain control of the line, and bought it outright from Potlatch. BN bought the line from the Milwaukee March 5, 1981.

It generated good traffic for Milwaukee. Bennett Lumber gave Milwaukee 75% of its 2000 mile line haul traffic. Bennett complained in 1981 that BN was offering slower service and cycle time than the Milwaukee had in 1978. Bennett owned its own cars and so that was a significant problem for Bennett.

So by your recollection Milwaukee never studied a possible extension of the Elk River Branch on down to Lewiston ID via the "Park" line? That would be suprising to me, since Potlatch was formed by all the various other logging companies in the 1920's, and a lot of intercompany product was moving between the various mills. The pulp mill in Lewiston was built in the 1940's or 1950's I believe, and since it required a lot of wood chips, I would think the rail traffic potential for chip trains between St. Maries and Lewiston was present back then. Is it possible Milwaukee handed off chip cars and other wood products cars to NP at Palouse via the WI&M, and the NP from there took them on down to Lewiston?

[MichaelSol]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cornmaze

QUOTE: Originally posted by MichaelSol

Milwaukee derangement syndrome.

I'm not deranged about anything. Certainly not about the Milwaukee Road. It's dead and buried for many years now and I'm at peace with that.

2) The Trustee was described by Milwaukee VPO Paul Cruikshank as "difficult" after receiving the BAH report -- he also suffered a perforated ulcer after finding that his arguments in favor of abandonment of the PCE would, under the consultant's view kill the possibility of profitability, while shutting down the part of the railroad that would enable the system as a whole to regain profitability. My comments were based on the comments of a key insider coupled with the actual reports which showed "a problem" with the prior projections made.

Apparantly he resigned for health reasons, and not out of shame as you suggested earlier. That part you made up.

Well, from the Grand Champion of making things up, it is an interesting thought that you impose your practice upon others. I suggested that stress over a horrendous financial miscalculation may have contributed to his perforated ulcer. He was upset. There is no doubt about that. He had stated publicly that MILW could not be reorganized with the PCE. He had stated that to the ICC, to the Bankruptcy Court, to the FRA, and to the general public.

Now he had a multi-million dollar consulting study in his hand which stated exactly the opposite; that MILW could not be reorganized without the PCE. Everything he had done as Trustee to make the PCE inoperable, everything he had testified to, just came crashing down. Instead of saving the Milwaukee, he had probably made it impossible to successfully reorganize the Milwaukee based on a completely backwards understanding of the situation. This was Stanley E.G. Hillman. Pillar of the Chicago financial community. He was upset. Senior executives have said so.

I am sure that had nothing to do with his perforated ulcer and resignation, and that your apparent alternative, that it was just a coincidence, makes much more sense.

Kind of like getting hit by a train and dying.

Just a coincidence.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by kenneo

Was just over on the BNSF web site on another mission and decided, while there, I would check the NW Division Map for the WIM. Map shows the Saint Maries (STMA) operating Spokane and Saint Maries (not starting at Plummer Jct) and a line South to Bovill (the Elk River Line of the WIM) and the PCC as operating between Bovill and Palouse and then North to Lakeside Jct and also South to Pullman and Moscow.

Are the rails still in place? BNSF says the road is in operation. I think not, and if I am correct, it is this sort of thing that spreads information problems.

Eric,

Potlatch bought the St. Maries to Bovill line and the portion of the PCE from Avery west through St Maries to Plummer Junction and the UP connection, called the St Maries River Railroad. The portion from St. Maries to Plummer is run as a common carrier (due to the presence of other rail clients in the St. Maries area), while the portions from Bovill to St. Maries and Avery to St. Maries were run as strictly Potlatch affairs. The Forest Service then sued Potlatch to obtain the PCE ROW from Avery to Marble Creek for a new highway, so that line was eventually torn out. Also, the PCE portion from Avery to either St. Regis MT or Haugen MT was bought by a guy named Edwards who had hoped to use it as a future secondary mainline for either BN or UP, but the Forest Service sued him as well to get the line, which is now part FS road, and part Hiawatha Bike Trail) The UP still runs the branch from Plummer to Spokane, and I was told by someone that UP handles BNSF cars from the SMRR.

BN operated the line from Bovill to Palouse until about 1998 when a minor flood took out about 10 feet of track embankment. BN then embargoed the line from the Bennett mill at Princeton to Bovill, although it would have been pretty easy to repair the flood damage (solzrules could have done it in a day with just a wheelbarrow and a shovel!). BN then sold the line to WATCO under the PCC label, and WATCO decided to play SCRAPCO and tore out the rails and ties from Bovill to Harvard (near Princeton). The ROW is still intact, but of course property owners along the way have decided to make their usual claims to the ROW hear and there, although most of it is still accessable by recreationists.

The SMRR is currently cut off from the nation's rail grid by that trestle collapse over Benewah Lake. Potlatch is currently trucking product to Plummer for UP reload, and to Spokane for BNSF reload. Last I heard Potlatch was going to repair the trestle, although no sign if such is evident as of last weekend.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by MichaelSol

Milwaukee derangement syndrome.

I'm not deranged about anything. Certainly not about the Milwaukee Road. It's dead and buried for many years now and I'm at peace with that.

2) The Trustee was described by Milwaukee VPO Paul Cruikshank as "difficult" after receiving the BAH report -- he also suffered a perforated ulcer after finding that his arguments in favor of abandonment of the PCE would, under the consultant's view kill the possibility of profitability, while shutting down the part of the railroad that would enable the system as a whole to regain profitability. My comments were based on the comments of a key insider coupled with the actual reports which showed "a problem" with the prior projections made.

Apparantly he resigned for health reasons, and not out of shame as you suggested earlier. That part you made up.

[MichaelSol]

BN bought the old WI&M in 1981 from Milwaukee, connecting with the WI&M at Palouse at the old NP connection from Spokane. Potlatch Corp then bought the Milwaukee line from Bovill north the Milwaukee mainline, and bought the Milwaukee main from Avery to Plummer, May 15, 1980. So Potlatch's old RR was owned by BN, while Potlatch was now the owner, again, of a railroad which it named the St. Maries River RR. Potlatch didn't want to serve any other shippers and so became a private carrier. St. Maries to Avery. Big mistake as the ROW, Avery to St. Maries, was mostly over federal land with a reverter clause and so the instant that STMA was no longer a common carrier, USFS took the ROW back.

MILW had developed the Bennett traffic as well as Scott Paper Mill traffic, so ironically, when the big Potlatch Mill shut down at Potlatch, the old WI&M line was dependent on STMA, former Milwaukee Road originated traffic, for its continued survival. BN decided to sell and, although Montana Rail Link looked at it, WATCO was the only bidder May 24, 1996, combining other purchased BN lines to form the Palouse River & Coulee City RR (PCC)

I understand the track has been removed between Harvard and Bovill. Nothing is moving between Bovill and Plummer's on the STMA, but Potlatch has apparently decided to repair the Benewah Trestle, so that will change soon.

[kenneo]

Was just over on the BNSF web site on another mission and decided, while there, I would check the NW Division Map for the WIM. Map shows the Saint Maries (STMA) operating Spokane and Saint Maries (not starting at Plummer Jct) and a line South to Bovill (the Elk River Line of the WIM) and the PCC as operating between Bovill and Palouse and then North to Lakeside Jct and also South to Pullman and Moscow.

Are the rails still in place? BNSF says the road is in operation. I think not, and if I am correct, it is this sort of thing that spreads information problems.

[kenneo]

So the BN then sold the WIM back to Potlatch and is now operating the St. Maries-Plummer line and the WIM as the Saint Maries RR?

Does my memory serve me correctly in that the WIM had a connection (with the NP?) with the BN at Palouse? This line East of Palouse -- would this be the same line that the BN tore up to thwart the UP and the short line that the UP and BN had created to do the grain hauling for them?

[MichaelSol]

The WI&M operated from the Milwaukee at Bovill, south to Forks, then swung west to Palouse. The "Park" line left the WI&M about half way between Bovill and Forks and headed south towards Park and had a wandering operation in the hills south of Park and Elk River. That line was built by Morrison Knudsen for Potlatch Co. in 1929. Milwaukee operated its own line from Bovill to Elk River.

WI&M was owned by Potlatch until 1961, when Milwaukee Road had moved ahead of an NP/GN effort to gain control of the line, and bought it outright from Potlatch. BN bought the line from the Milwaukee March 5, 1981.

It generated good traffic for Milwaukee. Bennett Lumber gave Milwaukee 75% of its 2000 mile line haul traffic. Bennett complained in 1981 that BN was offering slower service and cycle time than the Milwaukee had in 1978. Bennett owned its own cars and so that was a significant problem for Bennett.

[Anonymous]

Mike, Eric, and/or arbfbe,

How much do any of you guys know about the Elk River branch in Idaho and the WI&M? One interesting relic of rail activities in the Bovill area is an old railbed running along the Potlatch River Canyon from a connection with the WI&M just south of Bovill to Little Boulder Campground, where there was a logging camp at one time. The line continued south to the Park area, and this part is now part of the main FS road to Park.

Were operations on this line strictly Potlatch, or did WI&M or Milwaukee handle any switching duties on any part of this logging line? Did Milwaukee have any sights set on using this line as a jump start to an eventual line south on down to Lewiston via the Potlatch River Canyon? That would've made sense since Potlatch had (and continues to have) operations from St. Maries to Clarkia to Bovill (along the old Elk River branch of the Milwaukee) and it's main pulp and paper mill down in Lewiston, and there was and is a lot of inter-commodity haulage of logs, unfinished lumber, wood chips and hog fuel between these points.

PS - I believe the line from St. Maries to Bovill continued in Milwaukee operation right up until the PCE abandonment.

[Anonymous]

On a sad note, we found the remains of one of your guys' grain hoppers just west of Peedee siding. We estimate she'd been there at least 30 years. Wasn't much left of her but the shell. It looks as though bears or sheet metal workers made short work of her, she was pretty well cut up.

A rather poignant reminder of better times........[:(]

[kenneo]

QUOTE: Originally posted by MichaelSol

The Big Blackfoot Railway Co. Milwaukee built this to serve its sister company, Anaconda, and its forest operations in the Blackfoot Valley of Western Montana. It was part of an overall concept to develop a faster mainline through Montana, over Cadotte Pass to Great Falls (this is why that enormous Milwaukee Depot is in Great Falls), to Lewistown, then east to Melstone. A 1% or less crossing of the Continental Divide at about the same elevation as the GN crossing at Marias Pass.

Also part of a surveyed (and purchased) line to Milwaukee's vast coal and timber reserves north of the Canadian border in the Crow's Nest region. That line would have come down the Swan Valley and connected to the Big Blackfoot Railway at Clearwater.

BBR ran from Bonner Jct east of Missoula, up the Big Blackfoot River; line ended at Cottonwood, but was graded to Ovando and Brown's Lake. The survey over Cadotte Pass was done under the project name of the Great Falls Western Railway.

Michael --- Thanks. I had known this as the Cottonwood Branch. That is my name for it as I don't know what the MILW called it. This routing would definately have been a more direct route, but it seems that everybody had to build to Butte. Now almost nobody is in Butte.

[kenneo]

QUOTE: Originally posted by arbfbe

There were some employee photos presented at the Lewistown MRHA convention. One showed the tilted tunnel above Sage Ck. Basically, the earth at the top of the tunnel was moving faster downhill than the earth at the bottom of the tunnel was moving downhill. The concrete portals and lining was holding the shape reasonably well but had that tower of Pizza look going for it.

I'll take mine with Pepperonie and crumbled Bacon.

Crum --- seems like this was not a good place to build a railroad.

[arbfbe]

There were some employee photos presented at the Lewistown MRHA convention. One showed the tilted tunnel above Sage Ck. Basically, the earth at the top of the tunnel was moving faster downhill than the earth at the bottom of the tunnel was moving downhill. The concrete portals and lining was holding the shape reasonably well but had that tower of Pizza look going for it.

[MichaelSol]

The Big Blackfoot Railway Co. Milwaukee built this to serve its sister company, Anaconda, and its forest operations in the Blackfoot Valley of Western Montana. It was part of an overall concept to develop a faster mainline through Montana, over Cadotte Pass to Great Falls (this is why that enormous Milwaukee Depot is in Great Falls), to Lewistown, then east to Melstone. A 1% or less crossing of the Continental Divide at about the same elevation as the GN crossing at Marias Pass.

Also part of a surveyed (and purchased) line to Milwaukee's vast coal and timber reserves north of the Canadian border in the Crow's Nest region. That line would have come down the Swan Valley and connected to the Big Blackfoot Railway at Clearwater.

BBR ran from Bonner Jct east of Missoula, up the Big Blackfoot River; line ended at Cottonwood, but was graded to Ovando and Brown's Lake. The survey over Cadotte Pass was done under the project name of the Great Falls Western Railway.

[kenneo]

QUOTE: Originally posted by arbfbe

While there are a couple sections of line with problems account blue shale the scenario you have presented concerning the Northern Montana line is quite an exageration. One tunnel was daylighted by the railroad after shifting soils moved the concrete lining to a tilted state. Who could build a tunnel through soils so soft the wind could blow it away?

Well --- I really wasn't sure I should even repeat that story just in case someone might come to believe it just like some "believe" that the PCE was a failure ecause it got abandoned.

The only thing I could think of would be such a steady and forceful wind against the tunnel mouth face (the open cut part) that could blow the dirt away. I am glad that my original thought (RIIIIIIIIIIGHT) was correct.

Now, the tunnel tilted?

QUOTE: There are still segments the Central Montana Railroad and Montana DOT's highway section deal with near the town of Square Butte that seem to be in a constant state of movement. One of the large trestles on the line needed stabilization on some of the piers to keep it from sinking into the ground.

From this I am to understand that part of the Montana Northern is operating as the Central Montana? What would be the route(s) of this line? Obviously, former MILW, but what parts.

QUOTE: These problems are complicated and expensive to deal with but represent a very small portion of the line from Harlowton to Lewistown to Great Falls and the numerous branch lines in the area. If the line had ever achieved secondary mainline status with construction west of Simms towards connection with the Blackfoot Branch and construction east towards the mainline at Miles City , I am sure the MILW would have rerouted the tracks to avoid these problematic segments.

Didn't they have a connection to Miles City via Judith Gap and Harlowton? Or are you speaking about the line that extended East out of Lewistown via Grassrange towards the Mussellshell, basically along Montana 200?

I would think that if they were thinking of building a secondary line that they would have followed Montana 200 to Circle and then headed Southeast to Glendive and then back up the Yellowstone to Fallon to make their connection to the "old" main line East to Aberdeen. Even if they had continued on to Sidney, they, in theory at least, could have "followed" the Missouri back to the main at Mobridge.

Blackfoot Branch. From where to where?

[kenneo]

QUOTE: Originally posted by MichaelSol
the unfortunate quote "I happen to be one of those people who thinks the aesthetics of a place are improved by putting a nice transmission line through it."

Especially if you are Montana Power Company.

Michael, if you ever "find those guys" let me know. They took a lot of my money in advance phone charges paid. I don't have kind words.

Their phone service (long distance, at least) was excellent. The rest was not.

AARG

[MichaelSol]

QUOTE: Originally posted by arbfbe
For a similar debacle check out the Montana Power bankruptcy. Just the quick highlights. Take a blue chip electrical and gas utility that has paid dividends for nearly 100 years. Move in a new manager who decides the company should be in the fiber optics business instead of regulated power. Never mind deregulation is immenent and there is surplus fiber optic in the ground at the time. So Montana Power investors lose it all. Hundreds of millions of dollars gone in a relatively short time. Bob Gannon has yet to apologize to all those people who got screwed.

Oh boy, I am still looking for Bob Gannon. MPC's former legal counsel saw me at a reception a few weeks ago and came up to say hi. Hard to even be civil to those guys. Montana Power Company always had close ties to Milwaukee Road. Same owners/directors early on; Wm Rockefeller, H.H. Rogers, John D. Ryan. Identical orange and black corporate color scheme.

Chairman Joe McElwain's first job was on the Milwaukee Road, I think his Dad worked for the Milwaukee in Deer Lodge, and MPC President Paul Schmechel was the Board Chairman of the NewMil group. They ran a good power company, although Joe McElwain's enduring legacy is the unfortunate quote "I happen to be one of those people who thinks the aesthetics of a place are improved by putting a nice transmission line through it."

[MichaelSol]

QUOTE: Originally posted by arbfbe
While there are a couple sections of line with problems account blue shale the scenario you have presented concerning the Northern Montana line is quite an exageration. One tunnel was daylighted by the railroad after shifting soils moved the concrete lining to a tilted state. Who could build a tunnel through soils so soft the wind could blow it away? There are still segments the Central Montana Railroad and Montana DOT's highway section deal with near the town of Square Butte that seem to be in a constant state of movement. One of the large trestles on the line needed stabilization on some of the piers to keep it from sinking into the ground.

The stretch (highway, RR, take your pick) between Arrow Creek and Geraldine is just remarkable country., all folded and convoluted. Seems like the soils there are in a sort of constant slow motion movement.

[arbfbe]

QUOTE: Originally posted by n012944

QUOTE: Originally posted by Randy Stahl

What pisses me off are the large assortment of people who never set foot on the MILW property forming opinions from WHAT ????
All of us on the Milw knew exacly what was going on , the trains for the coast were moving in endless fashion .
If you weren't there.... SHUT YOUR HOLE !!!

Maybe it was they were moving so slow from all the slow orders they just never seemed to end[:D] But anyways, I am sure that the PCE was doing so good that the trustee, the ICC and the bankruptcy court were just plain blind as to what was going on out there. Sure, right.[X-)]


Bert

Bert,

I see you are still clueless about all this. Please note the BAH studies recommended the MILW management keep the long haul to the Pacific Northwest where the growth potential existed and stop the hemmoraging in the midwest where there was even more competition for the short haul. Management and the trustee elected to ignore this advice. The axiom in transportation economics is to work the long haul rather than the short haul. Milw management and the trustee ignored this basic truism in transportation. Perhaps they were so full of the "truth" or "common knowledge" the PCE was wrong to build they spent their time trying to correct this 50 yr old 'mistake' they quit trying to make it work. Certainly there were other managers who had a plan and desire to operate at a profit what current managers wanted to cast off. The New Milwaukee and SORE folks were not given the chance.

It is not the ICC's job to tell railroad managers they are on the wrong track. When the abandonment petition is presented to them they have limited issues they can consider. The ICC is not the trustee there to represent the shareholders. The ICC is there to represent the shippers. If the trustee can show they can preserve the health of the company by taking the actions presented and shippers will not be 'harmed' by the abandonment beyond what they would suffer if the railroad went bankrupt due to high costs vs revenues they will approve the abandonment. The ICC only works with the evidence provided to it. They are not an investigative body in the proceedings. The do not hire consultants like BAH to give their opinion. The MILW did do that study, decided against that course of action and so did not present those findings to the ICC. Since none of the parties interested in maintaining the lines management wanted to abandon had the funds nor access to the corporate records to hire BAH to do it all over again to present the findings to the ICC the regulators did not get to see that information. They ruled on the issues they were presented in a manner they were statutorilly able to rule on.

The trustee probably had to present the BAH findings to the bankruptcy court. They are not there to represent the shippers nor the employees but the stockholders. Since none of the stockholders seemed to have an interest in operating a railroad but just wanted to cut off the bleeding no one else presented an alternative plan to the trustee. Everyone just knew there was excess capacity in the PNW and the PCE was a mistake all along. The trustee and the courts followed the ICC findings and decided to concentrate on the short haul in the face of the economics of transportation.

Congress elected not to get involved. Jimmy Carter had other peanuts to roast.

Bert, you just are cheerleading for the wrong set of people here. You have picked quite a set of losers to hitch your wagon to. You should have been there. For a similar debacle check out the Montana Power bankruptcy. Just the quick highlights. Take a blue chip electrical and gas utility that has paid dividends for nearly 100 years. Move in a new manager who decides the company should be in the fiber optics business instead of regulated power. Never mind deregulation is immenent and there is surplus fiber optic in the ground at the time. So Montana Power investors lose it all. Hundreds of millions of dollars gone in a relatively short time. Bob Gannon has yet to apologize to all those people who got screwed. Ken Lay has gone to the grave without apologizing to America for his mismanagement and malfeasance and the MILW managers and trustees probably are secure in the thought they did the best they could under difficult circumstances. Never mind others could have done better during that time but were not given the chance. The MILW managers and the trustees had no plan to run the railroad, only a plan to shorten it up enough to sell it off to someone else and they did just that. Hardly the best and highest use of the assets in their control as others tried to point out to them. They did it anyway. Their activities were criminal, though legal.

[arbfbe]

QUOTE: Originally posted by kenneo

What??? No recent controversies?

A part of the MILW that has not been talked about much (or at all?) is the Montana Northern (or was it Northern Montana) Branch from Harlowton to Great Falls. Right out in the middle of the "flatlands" up towards Great Falls there is or was a series of tunnels. Story I have heard is that part of the line was built over Bentonite and every time is got wet, the line moved, and then every time it got dry, the line moved again. I also heard that one of the tunnels litterly blew away leaving a daylighted tunnel.

Is all of this true??

While there are a couple sections of line with problems account blue shale the scenario you have presented concerning the Northern Montana line is quite an exageration. One tunnel was daylighted by the railroad after shifting soils moved the concrete lining to a tilted state. Who could build a tunnel through soils so soft the wind could blow it away? There are still segments the Central Montana Railroad and Montana DOT's highway section deal with near the town of Square Butte that seem to be in a constant state of movement. One of the large trestles on the line needed stabilization on some of the piers to keep it from sinking into the ground.

These problems are complicated and expensive to deal with but represent a very small portion of the line from Harlowton to Lewistown to Great Falls and the numerous branch lines in the area. If the line had ever achieved secondary mainline status with construction west of Simms towards connection with the Blackfoot Branch and construction east towards the mainline at Miles City , I am sure the MILW would have rerouted the tracks to avoid these problematic segments.

[kenneo]

What??? No recent controversies?

A part of the MILW that has not been talked about much (or at all?) is the Montana Northern (or was it Northern Montana) Branch from Harlowton to Great Falls. Right out in the middle of the "flatlands" up towards Great Falls there is or was a series of tunnels. Story I have heard is that part of the line was built over Bentonite and every time is got wet, the line moved, and then every time it got dry, the line moved again. I also heard that one of the tunnels litterly blew away leaving a daylighted tunnel.

Is all of this true??

[solzrules]

This is somewhat Milwaukee related - I drove past the remains of the beer line today on the east side of Milwaukee. The rails were quite rusty. Nothing unusual there except that they have been rusty for weeks now. Usually there is a switch job that runs out of North Milwaukee yard at least a couple if times a week (WSOR does the switching, I believe). I wander if the last remaining customers have finally given up or if there is just no business going on the line right now? Anybody know????