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What happen to Milwaukee Road?

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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, May 20, 2006 2:59 PM
Excuse me for jumping in with this question for all the MILW experts This is one that I have never heard a answer for. Milw plotted a line from Tacoma to Yakama that was only partly built (Elby east about 5 miles) Was the land (right of way) that was plotted ever purchased, aquired by MILW, or was it just a map plot The real question is what happened to the land rights?
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Posted by MichaelSol on Saturday, May 20, 2006 2:01 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Kevin C. Smith

QUOTE: Originally posted by MichaelSol
Milwaukee had 76% of Port of Seattle traffic, 60% of Port of Tacoma, and 23% of overall Washington State traffic compared to Union Pacific's 15%. Milwaukee's Kansas City blocking from the Pacific Northwest got to Kansas City faster than BN's, even though BN had the shorter route to Kansas City.

Best regards, Michael Sol

Despite the MILW's preponderance of traffic from Seattle & Tacoma, the smaller share of the total Washington state has me curious. Was this because NP and maybe GN had more/more productive branch lines to draw traffic from outside the port cities? Or were there enough other urban areas that the GN/NP served that the MILW didn't? My ORG's show a lot of NP lines in Washington State, but that doesn't mean a lot of traffic.

Well, from a historical perspective, there were five major rail lines: Union Pacific, Milwaukee, Great Northern, Northern Pacific, and SP&S. The average market share would be 20%. Milwaukee was above average.

If Union Pacific is removed, Milwaukee is still above the average remaining market share of GN, MILW, NP and SP&S of 21%.
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Posted by MichaelSol on Saturday, May 20, 2006 1:07 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Kevin C. Smith
Since the PCE was the "last man in" to Sea/Tac area, how long did it take for the MILW to gain that lion's share of the traffic?

Probably not long. GN's western terminal was really in Everett, and NPs in Tacoma. Each served Seattle on essentially branch lines. It was an important echo from the Northern Securities battle that both E.H. Harriman and William Rockefeller decided jointly to build into downtown Seattle, cooperated in the effort, and UP even loaned Milwaukee $5 million at one point when Wm Rockefeller couldn't find his checkbook.

GN's lines west earned only about $20 million in 1913; the CM&PS already earned $13 million. Since Everett was a pretty busy port in those days, Milwaukee probably already had the lion's share at Seattle.
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Posted by MichaelSol on Saturday, May 20, 2006 12:14 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

The historic and current trend regarding PNW westbound intermodal is that it's always been light. Mostly auto. Most PNW westbound has been and is still PR export stuff, while import intermodal dominates eastbound. LA and SoCal's a different story, lot's of domestic westbound intermodal aka Santa Fe.

Hmmm, Ken should know this.........

For the period in question, 1974 or thereabouts, Port of Seattle was handling about 8,000 TEU's per month import eastbound. The Port had a defined preference for working with the Milwaukee and Milwaukee's Tokyo office seemed to develop better relationships with the ocean carriers, mostly APL, Sea-Land, Japan Six and K-Line.

Going through a bunch of data and making some extrapolations, I can suggest that BN had about 14 revenue export TEU's westbound into Seattle per day. Whether that is technically "negligble" compared to Milwaukee's 100 or more import TEU's eastbound, I guess is it a matter of perspective. ["Seattle Harbor Container Traffic," Port of Seattle Planning and Research Department, January, 1978. p. 52].

Port of Seattle's Planning and Research Dept was cranking out all sorts of scenarios for growth. Interestingly, several of the studies don't even mention westbound intermodal traffic.

Recent historical trends through the Port of Seattle show that import intermodal continues to grow at 4.8%, export intermodal at 3.8%, and westbound empties continue to grow at 4.2%. Currently, the ratio is about 2.2 to 1, in favor of eastbound intermodal.


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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, May 20, 2006 11:33 AM
The historic and current trend regarding PNW westbound intermodal is that it's always been light. Mostly auto. Most PNW westbound has been and is still PR export stuff, while import intermodal dominates eastbound. LA and SoCal's a different story, lot's of domestic westbound intermodal aka Santa Fe.

Hmmm, Ken should know this.........
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Posted by erikem on Saturday, May 20, 2006 10:33 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by solzrules

QUOTE: Originally posted by erikem

QUOTE: Originally posted by kenneo

My dad was born in Terry, MT, and grew up there and told me many "yarns" about the MILW during the 1920's. Michael Sol's father and grandfather worked for the MILW, also.


Interesting - my dad was born in Miles City, but my Aunt and older uncle were born in Terry - my grand father's first job in the US was helping his brother-in-law Bernie Kempton with the horse teams used for grading the PCE through Terry. Last time i was in Terry was for a family reunion - staying of course at the Kempton Hotel.

Have you seen a copy of "Wheels across Prairie County" put out by the Prairie County Historical society ca 1970?


Never heard of it. What is it about?


A history of all of the families who lived in Prairie County, which includes Terry. I don't recall seeing much of anything about the MILW, but it did touch quite a number of people there.
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Posted by solzrules on Saturday, May 20, 2006 1:16 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by erikem

QUOTE: Originally posted by kenneo

My dad was born in Terry, MT, and grew up there and told me many "yarns" about the MILW during the 1920's. Michael Sol's father and grandfather worked for the MILW, also.


Interesting - my dad was born in Miles City, but my Aunt and older uncle were born in Terry - my grand father's first job in the US was helping his brother-in-law Bernie Kempton with the horse teams used for grading the PCE through Terry. Last time i was in Terry was for a family reunion - staying of course at the Kempton Hotel.

Have you seen a copy of "Wheels across Prairie County" put out by the Prairie County Historical society ca 1970?


Never heard of it. What is it about?
You think this is bad? Just wait until inflation kicks in.....
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Posted by erikem on Saturday, May 20, 2006 1:05 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by kenneo

My dad was born in Terry, MT, and grew up there and told me many "yarns" about the MILW during the 1920's. Michael Sol's father and grandfather worked for the MILW, also.


Interesting - my dad was born in Miles City, but my Aunt and older uncle were born in Terry - my grand father's first job in the US was helping his brother-in-law Bernie Kempton with the horse teams used for grading the PCE through Terry. Last time i was in Terry was for a family reunion - staying of course at the Kempton Hotel.

Have you seen a copy of "Wheels across Prairie County" put out by the Prairie County Historical society ca 1970?
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Posted by CMSTPP on Friday, May 19, 2006 12:59 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by solzrules

QUOTE: Originally posted by rebelfdl

I've been following this thread since the beginning...valid arguements all around...

BUT...Of the major contributors to this thread...
How many worked for MILW...
Where in the company....
If not, where is your info coming from????

Just to clear things up for us non-MILW people....


Books, my friend. Books and these threads.
But mostly books.


I agree I must have 15 books on the milwaukee and I have learned so much from them. I have learned a little on the forum such as the PCE. But yup it's mostly books and I never did see the milwaukee road running. I wasn't yet born.

James
The Milwaukee Road From Miles City, Montana, to Avery, Idaho. The Mighty Milwaukee's Rocky Mountain Division. Visit: http://www.sd45.com/milwaukeeroad/index.htm
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Posted by nanaimo73 on Friday, May 19, 2006 9:40 AM
Speaking of books, has any got the updated "Electric Way Across the Mountains" ?
Are there any changes from the earlier version ?
Dale
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Posted by solzrules on Friday, May 19, 2006 8:47 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by rebelfdl

I've been following this thread since the beginning...valid arguements all around...

BUT...Of the major contributors to this thread...
How many worked for MILW...
Where in the company....
If not, where is your info coming from????

Just to clear things up for us non-MILW people....


Books, my friend. Books and these threads.
But mostly books.
You think this is bad? Just wait until inflation kicks in.....
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Posted by greyhounds on Friday, May 19, 2006 7:38 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by greyhounds

QUOTE: Originally posted by kenneo

Originally posted by rebelfdl

I've been following this thread since the beginning...valid arguements all around...

BUT...Of the major contributors to this thread...
How many worked for MILW...
Where in the company....
If not, where is your info coming from????

Just to clear things up for us non-MILW people....



I can only speak for myself, but I worked WITH the MILW at Portland. Michael Sol and Randy Stahl did work for the MILW. I had a job offer from the MILW in the early 1970's and did not accept. The reasons, however, had nothing to do with the Company.

My dad was born in Terry, MT, and grew up there and told me many "yarns" about the MILW during the 1920's. Michael Sol's father and grandfather worked for the MILW, also.


Well, that helps explain his emotion which I'm convinced is excessive and actually crosses the border of irrationality.

What did Mr. Sol do for the old MILW?

BTW, I myself worked for a forwarder, the Illinois Central Gulf (I left as Asst. Director Intermodal Market Development and Pricing), and RoadRailer.
"By many measures, the U.S. freight rail system is the safest, most efficient and cost effective in the world." - Federal Railroad Administration, October, 2009. I'm just your average, everyday, uncivilized howling "anti-government" critic of mass government expenditures for "High Speed Rail" in the US. And I'm gosh darn proud of that.
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Posted by greyhounds on Friday, May 19, 2006 7:31 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by kenneo

QUOTE: Originally posted by rebelfdl

I've been following this thread since the beginning...valid arguements all around...

BUT...Of the major contributors to this thread...
How many worked for MILW...
Where in the company....
If not, where is your info coming from????

Just to clear things up for us non-MILW people....



I can only speak for myself, but I worked WITH the MILW at Portland. Michael Sol and Randy Stahl did work for the MILW. I had a job offer from the MILW in the early 1970's and did not accept. The reasons, however, had nothing to do with the Company.

My dad was born in Terry, MT, and grew up there and told me many "yarns" about the MILW during the 1920's. Michael Sol's father and grandfather worked for the MILW, also.


Well, that helps explain his emotion which I'm convinced is excessive and actually crosses the border of irrationality. I mean Sol actually believes there was minimal "westbound intermodal" in the 1970's.

Ask him for a source on that - he has no reply. He can't reply, because stuff like that is not true. He made it up to fit into his contrived version of reality.

The BN started Intermodal train #3, from Chicago to Seattle in 1972. The UP was also running decidated westbound IM service from Chicago to the PNW by the time I started working for a Freight Forwarder in Chicago in 1975. The MILW had no dedicate transcon IM service. They were getting left beind in the railroads' growth market.

And I'm still waiting on a phone number Sol said he'd provide to back up one of his emotional claims.

BTW, I myself worked for that forwarder, the Illinois Central Gulf (I left as Asst. Director Intermodal Market Development and Pricing), and RoadRailer.
"By many measures, the U.S. freight rail system is the safest, most efficient and cost effective in the world." - Federal Railroad Administration, October, 2009. I'm just your average, everyday, uncivilized howling "anti-government" critic of mass government expenditures for "High Speed Rail" in the US. And I'm gosh darn proud of that.
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Posted by kenneo on Friday, May 19, 2006 3:41 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by rebelfdl

I've been following this thread since the beginning...valid arguements all around...

BUT...Of the major contributors to this thread...
How many worked for MILW...
Where in the company....
If not, where is your info coming from????

Just to clear things up for us non-MILW people....


I can only speak for myself, but I worked WITH the MILW at Portland. Michael Sol and Randy Stahl did work for the MILW. I had a job offer from the MILW in the early 1970's and did not accept. The reasons, however, had nothing to do with the Company.

My dad was born in Terry, MT, and grew up there and told me many "yarns" about the MILW during the 1920's. Michael Sol's father and grandfather worked for the MILW, also.
Eric
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Posted by Kevin C. Smith on Friday, May 19, 2006 3:35 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by kenneo
(NOT MR - that is the McCloud River)...



Thanks for the reminder! I can't believe that there used to be so many reporting marks to keep track of-or that I used to know them (at least the Class I's). Oh, the world has changed, indeed...
"Look at those high cars roll-finest sight in the world."
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Posted by kenneo on Friday, May 19, 2006 3:28 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by CMSTPP

I like to pronounce it....... Erie lack-a-money!!!![:D][:P][(-D]

This is the only thing I know about the Erie Lakawanna.
This will be interesting.

James


OK guys, author a new thred for the "E-L"

BTW, a good part of the EL is still around, but when CONRAIL was made, EL became a part of it by law, and CR abandoned bits and parts that did not fit their business model. Some "abandoned" parts have been returned to service.
Eric
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Posted by kenneo on Friday, May 19, 2006 3:22 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Kevin C. Smith

QUOTE: Originally posted by MichaelSol
It is true the PCE was remarkably compact -- not a lot of little branch lines wandering all over, and the ones such as Moses Lake were suprisingly productive. But that was the point. The PCE basically shot from the Twin Cities into the ports at Tacoma and Seattle, then Portland. That was 1770 miles of long haul, 1,916 including Portland. Add in the Louisville traffic and there is a 2600 mile line haul.


I seem to recall-in the dark recesses of my faulty memory-the TRAINS "Professional Iconoclast" suggested that two railroads that would work best for his proposed integral train system to bring Pacific Rim traffic to population centers in the east would be the MR and Erie. The Milwaukee Road because it was one of the transcons that ran through to Chicago, so there would be only the Chicago terminal interchange and both railroads had minimal branchlines compared to long haul mains to help eliminate rehandling and delays...FWIW


Your FWIW is spot on. It has been not noted (to my knowledge) that the logical merger combination would have been the MILW (NOT MR - that is the McCloud River) and the EL, even though CNW was not all that bad a choice. EL terminated in the New Jersey port area across from Manhatten and contained at least two TOFC terminals. There were only two natural land bridge routes that I know of that could have operated direct - no rubber I/C - between the Pacific Northwest and the East -- MILW (Portland, Tacoma, Seattle) via Chicago to NJ via EL and MILW,Chicago, GTW, CN, CNE to Halifax. Not even CN single line from Vancouver was the equal.

Add in the Louisville connection and through the SOU you have direct access to most of the South. What an opportunity --- wasted.
Eric
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Posted by Kevin C. Smith on Friday, May 19, 2006 2:53 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by MichaelSol
Milwaukee had 76% of Port of Seattle traffic, 60% of Port of Tacoma, and 23% of overall Washington State traffic compared to Union Pacific's 15%. Milwaukee's Kansas City blocking from the Pacific Northwest got to Kansas City faster than BN's, even though BN had the shorter route to Kansas City.

Best regards, Michael Sol


Fascinating-I had no idea. A couple of questions come to my mind...

Where ARE those cars keys (a perennial problem) of mine?

Despite the MILW's preponderance of traffic from Seattle & Tacoma, the smaller share of the total Washington state has me curious. Was this because NP and maybe GN had more/more productive branch lines to draw traffic from outside the port cities? Or were there enough other urban areas that the GN/NP served that the MILW didn't? My ORG's show a lot of NP lines in Washington State, but that doesn't mean a lot of traffic.

Since the PCE was the "last man in" to Sea/Tac area, how long did it take for the MILW to gain that lion's share of the traffic?
"Look at those high cars roll-finest sight in the world."
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Posted by Anonymous on Friday, May 19, 2006 2:43 AM
I've been following this thread since the beginning...valid arguements all around...

BUT...Of the major contributors to this thread...
How many worked for MILW...
Where in the company....
If not, where is your info coming from????

Just to clear things up for us non-MILW people....
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Posted by Kevin C. Smith on Friday, May 19, 2006 2:37 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173

Hey....lets talk Erie Lackawanna.

ed



Actually, if anyone wants to start that thread, please do! Minus the (sometimes excess) passion on this thread, I have learned WAY more about the CMStP&P and PCE than I had absorbed over the past years since its demise. I'd be more than happy to learn as much about E-L or, specifically the Weary Erie. All I can say that I know (and I've learned to temper that by saying it may not be so) is the supposed Wall Street maxim, "There are three certainties in this world-death, taxes and no dividends on Erie common."

I'll be anxiously awaiting the new thread, "What happened to the Erie?" Or Erie Lackawanna...
"Look at those high cars roll-finest sight in the world."
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Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, May 18, 2006 11:19 PM
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Posted by CMSTPP on Thursday, May 18, 2006 9:47 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by solzrules

[(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D]


Yup!!! When I first heard that I didn't know what to think at the time except laughter. It would be interesting to know what exactly happened to them.

James
The Milwaukee Road From Miles City, Montana, to Avery, Idaho. The Mighty Milwaukee's Rocky Mountain Division. Visit: http://www.sd45.com/milwaukeeroad/index.htm
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Posted by solzrules on Thursday, May 18, 2006 9:45 PM
[(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D]
You think this is bad? Just wait until inflation kicks in.....
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Posted by CMSTPP on Thursday, May 18, 2006 9:43 PM
I like to pronounce it....... Erie lack-a-money!!!![:D][:P][(-D]

This is the only thing I know about the Erie Lakawanna.
This will be interesting.

James
The Milwaukee Road From Miles City, Montana, to Avery, Idaho. The Mighty Milwaukee's Rocky Mountain Division. Visit: http://www.sd45.com/milwaukeeroad/index.htm
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Posted by solzrules on Thursday, May 18, 2006 9:36 PM
Did the Erie Lackawanna also abandon most of its trackage due to corporate mismanagement, poor maintenance, and illicit competition brought on by the over-regulation of the ICC????[(-D]

Sorry. It just sounded funny.

Was the Erie Lackawanna a big road or no? I don't know much about it.
You think this is bad? Just wait until inflation kicks in.....
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Posted by greyhounds on Thursday, May 18, 2006 7:08 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173

Hey....lets talk Erie Lackawanna.

ed



Did Stanley For Example work there too?!
"By many measures, the U.S. freight rail system is the safest, most efficient and cost effective in the world." - Federal Railroad Administration, October, 2009. I'm just your average, everyday, uncivilized howling "anti-government" critic of mass government expenditures for "High Speed Rail" in the US. And I'm gosh darn proud of that.
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Posted by solzrules on Thursday, May 18, 2006 6:08 PM
Nice pictures!

Sometimes it is the best way to relive history.

You think this is bad? Just wait until inflation kicks in.....
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Posted by MP173 on Thursday, May 18, 2006 6:08 PM
Hey....lets talk Erie Lackawanna.

ed
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Posted by CMSTPP on Thursday, May 18, 2006 5:54 PM
All right, here they are.


This one I did a couple of years ago and I still think it looks good. This would be an EF-5, the four set of box cabs all four units the same size.


This I did last summer and both sets are EF-3s. This one turned out the best.
You can tell how better I have gotten just by looking at the this one.

At the moment I am working a new picture. It shows Amtrak F40phs coming out of Chicago's Union station. This one is going to be pretty cool.

Hopefully this starts something new...???.......

James
The Milwaukee Road From Miles City, Montana, to Avery, Idaho. The Mighty Milwaukee's Rocky Mountain Division. Visit: http://www.sd45.com/milwaukeeroad/index.htm
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Posted by solzrules on Thursday, May 18, 2006 3:11 PM
Geeze guys! I just liked the engines.
I was still in diapers when this happened.
I can see that 29 years don't change a thing.
You think this is bad? Just wait until inflation kicks in.....

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