Ideas on railroad re-building

[Modelcar]

...And continues in the Muncie area with roughly 30 miles and about 7 mi. more under construcion on the south end......

[MP173]

I moved to Northwest Indiana in 1977 and C&O was still running it's trains directly on the Cincinnati route into Hammond and then Chicago.

Sometime in the late 70's they abandoned the route from Malden (south of Valparaiso) to Hammond, possibly due to Erie Lackawanna's demise (not sure about that). Trains, including the Cardinal, were routed (from south) to the old Pere Marquette route at LaCrosse, In. north to Wellsboro. A loop track was in place to run the freights from a north direction to the east-west B&O line. It was a great place to be in the late 70's as there was an operator there that controlled the line to LaCrosse.

I got to know the operator there really well and would spend the day there watching the action...GTW running it's GP7/9's long hood forward, B&O mainline, the C&O trains plus the Cardinal coming off the B&O and heading down a welded rail branch line plus a local coming south out of Benton Harbor.

The second trick operator was a cute little freckled redhead...never built up enought courage to ask her out.

Good days.

ed

[Modelcar]

...In all our discussion of the "used to be routes", I'm sure most of us would like to see them back in operation as viable rail routes needed to haul our merchandise, etc...even people across some of them. Reality is they were shut down becaue something caused them to be costing too much resources against what the route shipping was bringing in....With the trends of transportation in this country I don't see much hope to find hardly any of the routes reinstated. It really seems a shame to abandon such engineered routes because once that happens all kinds of changes occur to obliterate the routes and most can not be restored. The building of Trails on these routes at least preserves the basic ROW if, and it's a big if they would ever be needed as rail routes again. Guess we can hope, but that's about all I see towards seeing much rebuilding of any of the routes again. The depot in our city was derelict to a point it was a disgrace in appearance but now after the Trail was established the depot is a great sight again and useful building {as the Trail Head in our area}...and it still looks like a railroad station.

[SALfan]

Re # 6, the old SAL between Richmond and Jacksonville: as far as I am aware, the two big chunks that are abandoned are Petersburg, VA to Norlina, NC and between Savannah, GA and Jacksonville, FL (corrections welcome). Both areas are traffic deserts, and Petersburg-Norlina is crooked and hilly as well. Don't believe there would be major problems from NIMBY's about rebuilding them, because there aren't many people in those areas to be affected. My limited grasp of RR economics says CSX would be much better off to add track to the ex-ACL as needed.

[Anonymous]

Thanx for the input everybody. Maybe someday if I'm in Indiana I'll go bike riding over the former C&O. I never realized how expensive railroads were to build or operate until recently. I suppose BNSF, UP and even DM&E will probably expand their lines to quadruple track before ever bringing back the Cowboy line or the Sheldon-Rapid City route. I still think that as long as the former Rock Island ROW from K.C. to St. Louis is still intact it would be great for passenger train service since the line is fairly straight as opposed to Gateway Western, NS or the former CB&Q between those cities.
Although it's hard to tell what new lines will be built or what potential ROW's will be re-built I do know this. In about 30 years there will be at least 100 million more Americans. I think the capacity issue will be more problematic in the West where the railroads were built at a time when so few lived there and little trade was coming in from Asia. Not to mention the more challenging landscape that would hinder building new lines. In any case I think it will be interesting to see how the railroads solve these problems in the future.

[dmitzel]

I understand why the Montana Gov is upset about BNSF's grain rates and lack of (rail) competition. Too bad it didn't need to be this way.

When the Milwaukee filed for bankruptcy in '78 (or was it '77) the trustee was looking for a buyer towards the end. However, only the State of South Dakota was really interested - they did eventually purchase the segment from Ortonville, MN to Terry, MT. Montana was somewhat interested, but chose to pass. Idaho was indifferent and Washington was definately not interested. Sort of hard to save the PCE when most of the states it traversed said "No, thanks."

I imagine that many of them wished they decided otherwise, but things were different in the '70s and '80s with too much rail capacity back then. If someone had a crystal ball back then and could have forseen the container explosion from Asia perhaps something could have been done, but that something would have likely been a Federal Government effort at railbanking since the industry didn't have the financial strength to do it alone.

Sure, it would be something for the UP to run Seattle/Tacoma to St. Paul on the old MILW and connect to the C&NW (former Omaha) line to Milwaukee and Chicago. Too bad that the Milwaukee trustee saw more $$$ from the scrapper than the Feds or UP ever offered. About all you could hope for is the BNSF re-laying the Ellensburg to Lind, WA segment, but I hear that most of the ROW in Ellensburg proper is occupied by a University - lots of NIMBYs in acadamia.

Speaking of re-laying abandoned ROWs and NIMBYs, one only has to see how long it has taken DM&E to get their Powder River extension off the ground (and through the court challenges) to see how hard this is, and they haven't even turned a shovel-full of dirt yet. Not to mention western S. Dak. and Wyoming are about the most lightly inhabited spots left in our country.

Food for though, anyway...

[Anonymous]

Funny when you contemplate the concept of Nimbyism along side the discussion we've had here about lineside residential groups protesting train horn noise.

All the "cat call" invective faulting them for buying a house close to the tracks, if they didn't want horns blaring in their ears.....so here the table is turned, the residents living lineside are getting involved proactively BEFORE the potential problem resumes, and now the residents are faulted as "NIMBY's" ....

[Anonymous]

In S. Jersey we are relaying a small part of what was once the West Jersey & Seashore connection to the Reading's Cape May branch. We have dug up a lot of the old ties.This track was removed in the early 1970's. Th trees are 4-6 inches around. The track gang spent 2 weeks cutting trees. This will now become a team track to hold about 6 cars. Wish we could go all the way.
Ron Baile
Cape May Seashore Lines RR

[RKFarms]

Interesting topic- a few thoughts.
Chicago-Cincinnati: current AMTRAK route (Monon, P&E to Indy, C&O to Cincy) is underutilized and mostly in decent shape. Not exactly direct, but it is already built.
Toledo-St. Louis: old Cloverleaf is long gone in western Indiana. I live 3 miles from this line and remember it well when it was active. It has a lot of curves, goes through a lot of small towns and is EXTREMEMLY unlikely to be resurrected. I would love to see the old Monon get more traffic-I cross it every day on my way to work and rarely see a train or hear one on my radio.
Overall, I don't see the economic justification for any of these, but it's a nice dream.
Pat
WC Indiana

[Anonymous]

Just like in any business, nothing happens without it making economic sense. Railroads are land intensive. They have some real disincentives in reacquiring RoW that has been sold. Have you seen the price of property these days?
I'm nostalgic about the old Erie from Meadville through the Southern Tier of New York State, and all the branches heading North and South off of it, but that doesn't make it sensible to resurrect them--unfortunately.
But it is fun to dream....

[Anonymous]

Since we're wishing here, is there anyone else who'd like to see the old UP/D&RGW Tennesee Pass Line open back up?

[nobullchitbids]

For those who remember the off-topic question:

The Chessie steam special may have used the Reading northern, but at one point it also used former Nickel Plate # 759 (so the original poster is correct).[;)] The S-3 Berkshire was employed because Chessie's Kanawha Berkshires essentially were S-3 knockoffs (as a matter of detail, one needs only to switch the sandbox and the dome).[oX)] Unfortunately, none of the Kanawhas were kept; [xx(] fortunately, several of the S-3s were.[:)] Give one a little paint job, engage in a little make-believe, and gadzooks! -- we're running a model railroad![4:-)][8D][8D][8D][8D][8D][8D][8D][8D][8D][8D][8D][8D][8D][8D][8D][8D][8D][8D][8D][8D][8D][8D][8D][8D][8D][8D][8D][8D]

Last S-3 I saw was the 755 at Conneaut, Ohio (is it still there?).[%-)] There was a Kanawha once stuffed at or near the Cleveland Zoo, but it was in horrid shape when I saw it and victim of much vandalization.[}:)] I wouldn't be surprised to learn it was long gone today.[V]

[Anonymous]

Sort of a new rail. The old New York Central from South Bend, IN to Streator, IL.

During the 50's Railroad Magazine had thought the NYC would double track that route in favor of the direct to Chicago. It saved 1 1/2 days getting a train from the Santa Fe to Elkhart, IN. I KNOW they can use that relief.

Unfortunately, if they did, our museum in North Judson could have a problem. The engine terminal in right on the old right of way. In Knox, the post office sits on it. Almost all the grade is still in, just some problems in the towns.

If you need rails east, the Pennsylvania is still in place through Indiana. When NS ran it, they found that even though it is dark territory and 40 MPH, trains from Ft. Wayne to Chicago beat the Nickle Plate route between the same points. The Nickle Plate is carded at 60 MPH, but runs south, then back north to meet up the the Pennsylvania in Valparaiso.

[gapotter09]

I believe the North Creek Branch of the Delaware & Hudson from Saratoga Springs to Tahawus. What New York State has started, I hope it completes the entire distrance.

[Anonymous]

I got good news for nobullchitbid. Hoosier Valley Railroad Museum in North Judson, IN HAS a C&O 2-8-4. It is Number 2789 and is in a stripped state in our engine house. We are SLOWLY working on it. In fact, alongside it is a ELCO S-1 that is being extensively repaired to bring it up to FRA standards. The diesel is 4 months older than its' steam stable mate.

If you are excited, US 30 to US 421 South to IN 10 East to North Judson. Museum is open all Saturdays, some members around Sundays.

[Anonymous]

Abandonded Rock Island and Pennsylvania Railroad Lines that meet or almost meet have to be considered for rebuilding for some type of rail transportation: Heavy Freight, Heavy Commuter, Light Commuter, and Mono-Rail.

Andrew F.

[Modelcar]

...You mean my memory may have served me correct on that 759...Wow...

[daveklepper]

In a lot of cases single track lines exist on what were double-track rights-of-way (either prepared for double and never installed or removed during downsizing), and double-tracking existing lines may be the answer.

[Anonymous]

I have always been of the opinion that abandonment of the B&O Parkersburg line was a colossal mistake--especially since portions of the route had undergone considerable work to improve clearances. Some cost study must have "proved" this was a good economic move (thru trains had to be drastically rerouted!) CSX probably wishes they had that capacity/route today.

[Anonymous]

The ones mentioned are great choices to be sure, but I would also have to add the Old Western Maryland Railway Thomas subdivision from Thomas to Elkins. Now that friends, was railroading. The Black Fork grade was something to behold, especially in the Autumn. I should know since I worked there many years ago.
R K Shamer, former WM ATM.

[rails39]

With the senitiment in Washington DC to move people will never happen

Rails39

[Anonymous]

Think about dreaming BIG! Jay Gould, when he built his Wabash Pittsburgh Terminal Railroad, had vast plans. ROW was acquired to permit four tracks. It was graded and most bridges/tunnels were built for double track. And lastly only a single track was laid. Talk about going downhill in a big way.

[Modelcar]

I was just thinking of the WM when the last post mentioned of it.....And above Dave mentions of the double track ROW's still in existence above and probably many available to build on if necessary. My thoughts go over to the WM ROW through southern Pennsylvania...Meyersdale, Garrett, etc....The line for the most part I believe was single track but I note bridges {at least some of them were constructed for double track}...I cite the example of the massive Salisbury Viaduct near Meryersdale. A trestle about 1500 ft long was designed and built for double track but the 2nd track was never installed. That massive trestle is now part of the east / west trail through that area and has a concrete walkway on top of it with steel framed and wire fencing on it's sides....Really a great place to look around from on top of it...{roughly 80 or so ft. high, maybe more}. The ex B&O east / west line is right under it and heading for the mountain crossing east of Meyersdale and Sand Patch.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper

In a lot of cases single track lines exist on what were double-track rights-of-way (either prepared for double and never installed or removed during downsizing), and double-tracking existing lines may be the answer.

Excellant point.

I am often impressed to see relics of instances where forward thinking railroads secured the right of way needed and made preliminary preparations for future expansion. Often as long as a hundred years ago.

We have a number of bridges here that despite being dual track, one can see that the builder designed the abutments to be ready made to accept additional parallel spans.

And I suspect that preexisting infastructure such as that, weighs into the decision on which routes will be kept, and which are expendable.

[Anonymous]

You bet I would like to see Tennessee Pass reopened.
For that matter, there will come a time in the not too distant future when most all rail lines will be reconsidered for reopening or the relaying of rail as the price of operating a private vehicle will be prohibitive.
Even busses will not be energy efficient enough .

[LVJJJ]

Follow the money. When it becomes profitable, all kinds of rail lines will open and re-open. Nothing happens in this world unless and until there is money to be made. When it becomes too expensive to run trucks on deteriorating hiways, shippers will turn to the next cheapest alternative, railroads. Thank God railroad companies aren't afraid to run over all of the bicycle-riding (and SUV driving hypocritical) environmentalists that might be lying in their way. Larry (formerly in Las Vegas now in Blaine, WA).

[Anonymous]

Although it's not included in your above list, I would like to see the branch of the
Erie RR from Salamanca to Dunkirk, NY, be rebuilt. This was the first railroad to
reach the Great Lakes from the East (1853), and contributed greatly to the development
of the area, although Buffalo eventually stole their thunder. Since this would be solely
for the benefit of us historical nuts, chances of it happening is from none to nil.

[Modelcar]

LVJJJ....Larry, some of the bike riding people that came forward to help to establi***rails on abandoned RR ROW's have by their actions preserved the route of many former RR's that could possibly be used in the furture whereas that would not have been possible if they had not done so....I'm one of them and by the way, I don't drive a large SUV....Do drive a 3.0L automoblie {that accomplishes good mileage}, and a small pick up...{V6}.

[LVJJJ]

modelcar, since it sounds like you would not be opposed to re-opening the r/w that you ride on, I am not referring to you. It's true that the rails-to-trails movement has preserved many rr-rights-of-way (during my tenure as a planner, helped preserve railtrails here in NW Washington), however many of those who support the trails will allow re-opening the rails only over their dead bodies (I hope they'll make good ballast). I'm not a casual observer of government regulations & environmental extremists, as I worked for Whatcom County Planning for over 20 years as a zoning and subdivision administrator ('73 to '00). I sadly watched as the art of compromise (regarding planning and zoning) disappeared in a cloud of environmental extremism. The hypocracy of the environmental elite who promote the green agenda while tooling around in their SUV's, drives me nuts, cause I was in the middle of the fight for over 2 decades and I hate dishonesty. Now I am a consultant for the overburdened, tax-paying, land owner who finds his property held hostage because the greenies (i.e. anti-capitalists who are heavily invested in the stock market) have been able to win over the legislatures and courts. Hopefully, since we are both on the Trains website, we are still on the same page. Larry in Blaine.

[Anonymous]

as a scenic RR, the old Chehalis Western from Chehalis, Washington (on I-5) to South Bend, Washington, on Willapa Bay, would be fantastic, particularly if a good small stem engine were available to haul the train. Love the bridge at Raymond across the Willapa River what a scenic great!!!