Ideas on railroad re-building

[chad thomas]

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

I agree - all of them (more or less) - although in some cases it would probably be better to build new lines from scratch rather than resurrecting older ROW's from the late 1800's. My understanding is that those old RI ROW's weren't exactly "engineered" in a way that would make them useful today.

You also should have included some of the lesser known Western ex-railroads, like....

12. Tonopah & Tidewater - a good north south alignment that could have been added to down to LA/San Diego and up to the inland PNW. North south routes may be a better fit today than traditional east west routes.

13. Nevada Northern + UP's ex Twin Falls (ID) to Wells (NV) - same thing, a north south alignment that could be stretched farther to connect more logical terminals.

14. The Modoc line - once a somewhat viable alternative to UP's OSL routing for traffic between the PNW and UP's central corridor.

15. BNSF's Havre to Great Falls, Great Falls to Helena, and Helena to Butte segments - part of the erstwhile I-15 corridor between Alberta and LA. Too bad UP and BNSF can't cooperate more for such multi-carrier alignments.

There's probably more, but I want to point out that such rebuilds probably should not simply relay track on the entire old grade. Be better to do some realigments to avoid certain grades and such.

12. The Tonopah & Tidewater was one of three routes south of the area known as the Bullfrog mineing district. Dureing it's day it might have made sense but there is really nothing to justify it's existance today. It runs through some of the most desolate and unpopulated areas and was prone to flooding in the Amagosa canyon and Crucero areas and subject to long closures. For a north south route the Las Vegas & Tonopah would have made a more viable route as it would end in a major population center. Even the longest lasting route, the Carson & Colorado / SP Jawbone and the Mina branch could not retain enough traffic to justify itself. After the C & C quit, the rails retreated from Tonopah to Mina where a mineral reload existed for a while but eventually the Thorne - Mina segment was abandoned in favor of trucking minerals to Battle Mountain on the Overland route. The remainder of the Mina Branch exists basicly to serve the huge munitions depot in the Hawthorne area. Even that segment was in jeapordy in the early 90s and the depot was told to "use it or loose it" (by the ICC?) when the SP threatend to abandon most of the line.


13. The Wells branch of the UP was basicly a shortcut from the Pacific Northwest to the northern California markets for lumber products vs the extra 300-400 miles to Ogden and back. It would make little sense today as this traffic can run directly down the Cascades on home rails all the way.

As for the Nevada Northern, guess what. It looks like it is going to be rebuilt (most track still exists on this route). It will be used to haul coal to a couple power plant to be built in the Steptoe Valley north of Ely / McGill. The line was successfully repurchased from the LA DW&P recently and they have one last legal hurdle to overcome and it looks like that will happen soon. If I recall, service could begin within a couple of years. And of course the Nevada Northern Musem will be able to run the whole line. They will also rebuild the segment between Shafter (ex WP connection) and Cobre (ex SP connection) for the Museum trains even though the coal trains will likely not use this segment. But as far as the NN being a through route that's not going to happen. Any route to the south would have many treacherous mountan crossings to deal with. Even the existing line up to Ruth is STEEP and windy.


14. I might be a bit biased on this one, as I lived on the Modoc for many years, but I think this abandonment was a mistake. Yes, Much of the traffic on the Modoc could just as easily be rerouted to the Oregon line, but this line was a valuable bypass that prooved it's worth several times when Donner or the Feather River routes were shut down due to adverse weather / landslides that are a frequent problem in winter. It could also have been a viable route option for BNSFs Overland traffic in and out of central / southern Oregon as opposed to sending it north through the funnel.


Of course I would love to see all these lines back in action but the reality is I don't think I will see any of them rebuilt in my lifetime (Nevada Northern excepted).


The only abandoned routes (out west) I see being restored in my lifetime are the Milwakee Road's Cascade crossing (Snowqualamy ?sp? Pass) and mabee back to eastern Washington. And the Pheonix line to Wellington (I belive rails are intact there). But only time will tell.[;)][8D]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar

LVJJJ....Larry, some of the bike riding people that came forward to help to establi***rails on abandoned RR ROW's have by their actions preserved the route of many former RR's that could possibly be used in the furture whereas that would not have been possible if they had not done so....I'm one of them and by the way, I don't drive a large SUV....Do drive a 3.0L automoblie {that accomplishes good mileage}, and a small pick up...{V6}.

Ummmm, have you got any pictures from the C&O biketrail?....I'd particilarly like to see those old bridges down town if you have any. [8)]

[Modelcar]

Larry....I agree, I would like very much to see any Trail returned to it's original use....A railroad, if in fact the circumstances had changed to merrit for that to happen.

[Anonymous]

Finally I see a topic as far fetched as I like to dream. I've heard arguments and even done some curious digging on how one might try to open up an old rail line. I came up with a figure of roughly 1,000,000 dollars a mile no matter if the line was preexsisting or not. although when you want to try and pull a dream into reality ,being able to show it once was real helps. Me I was looking at the former LS&MS {NYC} that ran through my town. I researched and found this line's only real problem was Vanderbuilt underestimated the NKP and then diverted way too much funding away from the line until it basicly collapsed from lack of upkeep. Don't get me wrong, I am a locomotive in front ,caboose in back ,romantic railfan. But finding out this line was electrified and ran steeple cabs and trolly cars was an interesting fact to uncover, as well as the fact that the line did not survive on freight traffic, but passenger traffic!!!! And what is one of the biggest complaints of potentual rail passengers??? Trains don't really go anywere!!!
Lets not forget that most of the lines in question were not built for freight customers!! When these lines came into being was in an age before automoblies and super highways. Passengers were a big reason one town was connected to another by rail 100 years ago. I am one for seeing these lines returned..not for freight but passengers as they were originally intended for. Of course I have been a student of history enough to realize that when the freight railroads gave up their passenger business they lost a lot of public favor. I think they gave up too soon and why they are afraid to resume a potentually profitable business is beyond me....perhaps costs are a bit high to risk it.
Anyway, I believe that if some of these segments were relaid in light rail {why does that sound like cussing to me??} and the railroad actually does go were people commute to everyday then you have a good reason to restore any old right of way. I can see it happening....maybe not in my life time but one day there won't be any oil left at all anywere. and the wisdom of our for fathers cutting these paths to everywere will come back to light

[Modelcar]

AntiGates....Send me your email address {mine is on my bio}, and we'll fix you up with some Trail / rail shots.....Can't put them on here.

[ValleyX]

Actually, I have read but can't document that the railroads, when built, were primarily interested in hauling freight until they discovered that they could make money hauling people. Maybe I read it on the 'net.

Another railroad that is still in place but unlikely to be resurrected is the LE&W/NKP/N&W/NS between Lima and Portland, IN. NS leased the portion west of Lima to the Indiana state line to R. J. Corman and actually sold them ten miles of it between Celina and St. Marys, OH. With the saturation of traffic that nearly paralyzes the former Wabash at times west of Fort Wayne, one has to wonder if todays' managers wonder what those people were thinking ten or twelve years ago.

[Anonymous]

What about the Flagler line to Key West?

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by pgberkin

What about the Flagler line to Key West?

I think there's a highway built on top of it.[xx(]

[Anonymous]

For NKPgator.
I disagree with you that light rail is like cussing. Having spent 7 years on the board of directors of a large transit agency I have an insight to light rail vs heavy (freight and conventional passenger) rail. The railroads will not give up their ROW just because a transit agency wants to tear it up for light rail. After all the BNSF, UP, and others are in business to move freight and need their tracks to operate. What we bought was under utilized or out of service lines going to the center of a town. The metrics of rail service has changed in the last 100 years. No longer is there a rail line up every alley in metropolitan areas to serve warehouses, factories, etc. These have moved to the suburbs and most of the terminal railways have greatly diminished in size (length, not width). What remains is the lines of several independant rail lines that went to down town areas. These remain from before the merger craze in the last 25 years. Thanks to mergers much of this track is redundant as the merged lines are using the best line to get through the town. At one time there were 7 class 1s in Dallas. Now there are two. (There is a third, KCS, however it terminates here and does not cross the town) We managed to purchase the redundant lines for future conversion to light rail. By definition light rail typically only goes 10-15 miles from the center of town. Anything longer would call for commuter (heavy) rail. A transit agency is wise to buy these redundant lines when they are available. Even if your current plans do not call for light rail on a given corridor buy it anyway. Who knows how the transit patterns will change in 10-20 years. You NEVER will get it any cheaper and after it is built on forget reverting it back to rail service. Disused corridors typically go for 1/2 to 1 million per mile and typically are 100 feet wide. This is the optimum width to run a two track light rail system and still have room for a third line to handle any freight that a shortline may develop. Think of the cost to buy a 100 foor strip through any town. NOBODY's treasury is big enough to do this. So do not curse light rail. It is still 4' 8 1/2" wide and employs pobably more sophisticated signalling than a heavy rail line. Yes, the cars do not look like a Harriman coach but a train ride is a train ride.

As to cost to lay a track on an existing ROW figure on 1 million per mile. Forget rehabbing the old line. By this time the ties are rotton and the rail is usually too light to be useful in todays service. Call the junk man and hope he will remove it for tha salvage value. This investment is for a good high speed rail line without any signalling. Figure the same investment per mile for signalling and catenary if you electrify. Our total investment including ROW, trackwork, signalling, catenary, yards and cars averages 45 million per mile. Railroading is not for the faint at heart.

[Modelcar]

Yes, highway Rt. 1 was extended out to Key West after the Hurricane of the mid '30's destroyed much of the RR and it was not rebuilt. More recently most of the bridges have been replaced with new, and wider ones. Most of the old RR ones are still in place but disconnected.

[Anonymous]

Yeah, I know...I thought there was some room here for whimsy.

[Anonymous]

#8! The Erie was/is my all-time favorite line and of course is the only one here in my area that was torn up.

Mike Rapchak Jr.
Hammond, IN

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by pgberkin

Yeah, I know...I thought there was some room here for whimsy.

Maybe you're on to something there. As the water isn't too deep there, perhaps a shallow tunnel would be in order? The view would be somewhat boring for the engineer, but none of those pesky crossings to worry about.[:)]

[Anonymous]

Being a South Dakota boy, 2,4, and 1 get my vote. And as long as we're dreaming, let's open up Tennessee Pass again.

Choo-Choo-Wayne

[tunnelmtrfan]

I think all the lines should be rebuilt and recommissioned. Particulary the CRIP, KC to Denver, granted the Kyle (Railamerica) owns the line but 25 MPH is not a very profitable gain without the further loss in profit for track condations. Also with all the ethonal plants being built, maybe there is a chance of raillines being rebuilt.

[mudchicken]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tunnelmtrfan

I think all the lines should be rebuilt and recommissioned. Particulary the CRIP, KC to Denver, granted the Kyle (Railamerica) owns the line but 25 MPH is not a very profitable gain without the further loss in profit for track condations. Also with all the ethonal plants being built, maybe there is a chance of raillines being rebuilt.

(1) UP bought Sandown to Belt Jcn [Denver East Belt Line] as a Denver Bypass and will go to work rehabbing it once the legal mess created by Colorado & Eastern(Gary Flanders et. al) is cleaned-up. This includes flattening an old hotel at old Stapleton.

(2) RailAmerica/Kyle got a physical plant that is in much better condition now than it was in the early 1980's-1990's. Much of it is 40 MPH now thanks to Roadmaster Van DerVeen and crew. East of Belleville (to KC via Clay Center) and Mahaska (to Omaha via Fairbury)is gone or out of service.

The old UP/KP has come full circle from near abandonment in 1990 to being a double track candidate within 10 years (transcon bypass & relief valve). As work on this line continues, Kyle gets UP detours on occasion from Salina to Limon. UP is spending a bunch of $$$ on the lines between Salina-Limon-Denver-Cheyenne. Looked lately?

[SALfan]

I'd like to see the old RI Choctaw Route from Memphis to Oklahoma City reopened. Always wished Santa Fe had bought it when the Rock quit. Guess it isn't needed now because BNSF has other ways to get to Memphis, but as long as we're dreaming . . . .

[JanekKoz]

Four comments.

First, Hodde is correct in assuming that CSX wished it had not abandoned the B&O Parkersburg line, so say several top CSX officials. A quick look at the C&O line to the south, Sandpatch to the north, what CSX is hauling today AND what CSX would like to haul and one can understand why.

Second, when talking of following money and making decisions on returns on investment, most of the talk has centerd on today's railroads doing the funding / work. Yes, some of that is and will happen. However, the future for rail expansion is tied to public involvement and that involvement is begining to happen too. RRs, in particular the Class Is, were vey reluctant to participate in any public infrastructure projects, or accept any public money, for fear that it could pave the way to open access on their lines. However, the RRs, in particular NS, have warmed to public money and are actually pursuing it. And where there is public money and desire, many things are possible. Evidence the states clearing routes for double stack service. Most recently, Congress appropriated $90 million to increase COFC capacity on NS from VA's Tidewater to Ohio. And how about the new Hudson River tunnels to Penn Station? What private RR could afford that? But for NJ, NY and the Feds its possible and well under way to fruition. Oh, and let's not forget the freight tunnel fom NJ to Brooklyn. Yes, its still in the discussion stage, but it presently has a greater than 50-50 chance of coming to fruition - because NYC wants it badly.

Third, where the public is involved, non-financial factors are also treated differently. The DM&E expansion to the Powder River Basin is primarily a RR initiaitive. Ergo, it has faced a multitude of hurdles, to include NIMBYs. However, in NJ, when Union County decided to resurrect a long abandoned line (Rahway Valley) and the NIMBYs came out in force, the county and judges told the NIMBYs to pound sand. The rails are now going back in.

Fourth, new ROW is a very difficult and thorny proposition. Many transportation folks would like to have new allignments for old ROWs, or completely new routes. This is still quite possible in the mid and far west. But in high-density metro areas, such as the northeast corridor, that may be a bridge too far, even for the politicians. Evidence the Acela Express use of tilt technology to overcome the curves in New England because Amtrak and al of the many state governments involved could not swing a deal to straighten out the line. There is a lot of talk of building a parallel Interstate highway to I-95, but it is just talk becasue no one can figure out how to aquire the ROW. So the discussion devolves to widening the present I-95 - bet even that is facing problems in aquiring the requisite land along the existing ROW in many places. So the talk shifts to an increasing role for rail, but again, when more infrastructure is needed, the space is hard to come by.

[CMSTPP]

You forgot the most important part of the milwaukee road. I would like to rebuild the the Milwaukees line from Butte, Montana to Harlatton, Montana. The reason i'm going to rebuild this line is for the scenery. Not many people are able to see things that are high in the mountains.. The milwaukee road ran at 4450 above the ground in the mountains. I don't remember how high Butte is above sea level but as the line came over the mountains the town could be seen from high above. I do have a video of the line as a little joe and three SD40-2s came over decending into the valley.
Harlatton is 4000 feet above sea level with the same kind of view as the milwaukee trains came over the mountains. This stretch I believe is about 200 some miles long and I would love to build a passenger line from these to towns. Then I would get permission to tie in with one of the larger railroads that comes through and run to Minneapolis and possibly Duluth.

It's a dream but I plan to make it real![;)][swg]

James

[Anonymous]

Here's a light rail idea. When the old CA & E quit, the CTA had to stop it's trains at Forest Park. With all the congestion on the Eisenhower expressway, it seems a natural to extend tracks back to at least LaGrange Road. There is the matter of the cemetery and the court house parking lots, but a modern 'elevated' structure could carry the tracks over all of that, the river, and First Avenue too. Even a pedestrian bridge over the river, from the Forest Park station to the court complex, would be helpful.

[Anonymous]

Hey everybody, the Rock Island line across Missouri between K.C. and St.Louis was
the only line NOT flooded out in the Flood of '93. As far as the ROW, US 65 at the Ionia turnoff,
all of that dirt fill is gone as US 65 is now a divided four-lane highway at that point. A new
longer bridge along with dirt fill would have to go back in place. Something to think about.

[tormadel]

QUOTE: Originally posted by NKPgator

Finally I see a topic as far fetched as I like to dream. I've heard arguments and even done some curious digging on how one might try to open up an old rail line. I came up with a figure of roughly 1,000,000 dollars a mile no matter if the line was preexsisting or not. although when you want to try and pull a dream into reality ,being able to show it once was real helps. Me I was looking at the former LS&MS {NYC} that ran through my town. I researched and found this line's only real problem was Vanderbuilt underestimated the NKP and then diverted way too much funding away from the line until it basicly collapsed from lack of upkeep. Don't get me wrong, I am a locomotive in front ,caboose in back ,romantic railfan. But finding out this line was electrified and ran steeple cabs and trolly cars was an interesting fact to uncover, as well as the fact that the line did not survive on freight traffic, but passenger traffic!!!! And what is one of the biggest complaints of potentual rail passengers??? Trains don't really go anywere!!!
Lets not forget that most of the lines in question were not built for freight customers!! When these lines came into being was in an age before automoblies and super highways. Passengers were a big reason one town was connected to another by rail 100 years ago. I am one for seeing these lines returned..not for freight but passengers as they were originally intended for. Of course I have been a student of history enough to realize that when the freight railroads gave up their passenger business they lost a lot of public favor. I think they gave up too soon and why they are afraid to resume a potentually profitable business is beyond me....perhaps costs are a bit high to risk it.
Anyway, I believe that if some of these segments were relaid in light rail {why does that sound like cussing to me??} and the railroad actually does go were people commute to everyday then you have a good reason to restore any old right of way. I can see it happening....maybe not in my life time but one day there won't be any oil left at all anywere. and the wisdom of our for fathers cutting these paths to everywere will come back to light

Problem here is for some reason commuter trains are unprofitable (and I'm not the person that knows why). You would think thousands of people going back and fourth everyday would be a cash cow but it isn't.

[tormadel]

And the Rock Island between St Louis and Kansas city is still there. I read a CRIP historical society article about it last year. I forget who the owner was but he was sued and won against many local and state agencies in MO that had illegally removed bridges and overpasses, paved over crossings. Also against private citizens who had taken it upon themselves to push rails into the ditch in suburban KC where it ran through they're back yards. The line had never been officially abandoned just not in use for years so they had had no right to do these things. And supposedly these state agencies were being required to replace all these structures and crossings at no cost to the railroad. I don't know if it has been finished of if the shortline had run any trains over the whole length yet.

[Kevin C. Smith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tormadel
Problem here is for some reason commuter trains are unprofitable (and I'm not the person that knows why). You would think thousands of people going back and fourth everyday would be a cash cow but it isn't.

The main problem isn't the volume (that's good) but the wildly uneven flow of it. If you have 100,000 commuters a day spread out evenly over 24 hours you can make full use of your track, equipment, stations and staff. But given the usual rush hours (say, 8:00-9:30am inbound and 4:30-6:00pm outbound) you have to have enough locomotives and cars, tracks on which to run them, cleaning & storage yards to keep them, stations (with parking!) with platforms long enough to load/unload them and conductors, ticket sellers, dispatchers, signals, etc. to handle all the business offered during those times-and virtually unused the rest of the day (and weekends and holidays). Your facilities have to be that much bigger to fit everything into them in two huge events and instead of earning money 24 hours a day they have only 3 hours to earn it (to pay for the extra large installation). Since commuters travel so often, even minor fare increases make a large impact on their budget (a $100.00 increase on my annual Amtrak trip on the CZ is a minor inconvenience; a $2.00 increase on a 5 day a week, 50 weeks a year commute is a bite!), so ticket prices have to be kept low. With so little to pay for such a costly fixed plant, the whole financial operation collapses under it's own weight.

[Zwingle]

Did some Googling...
If this is correct, the former Rock Island's St. Louis subdivision is now owned by the Missouri Central Railroad. However, the following page was last updated in 2000. Have no idea the current status, although the history of the line is very interesting:
http://members.tripod.com/mo_central_rail/history.html

[FJ and G]

I am a firm believer that all railroad ROWs should be preserved, if not for the RR then at least for a linear park or bike trail (but preferrably a railroad). Once linear space like that is gone, it reverts back to original owners and ensuing development will effectually kill any chance of that space ever opening up again.

Chances are, the railroad was built when there were a lot more wide-open spaces in this country. With each abandonment, that linear open space disappears.

A real shame.

[Zwingle]

Of course it all depends on who owned the land to begin with. Out west, much of the land was granted to the railroads outright. However, in many other cases the ROW is merely an easement for the sole purposes of railroad use. Once the railroad is done with the land, the easement vanishes and thereafter the landowner can do with his own property as he wishes. That is why the state of MO is having to pay the owners of the Katy ROW that was improperly taken for use as a nature trail. As more and more landowners are realizing their rights, the Katy Trail is going to wind up costing the state a fortune indeed.

As much as I love seeing old ROWs preserved, I also understand the problem with private land being taken for public use. However, a lot of rare grasses and prairie flowers live exclusively along old ROWs. Conservation groups may have better luck as preserving old ROWs than the trail-makers.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by FJ and G

I am a firm believer that all railroad ROWs should be preserved, if not for the RR then at least for a linear park or bike trail (but preferrably a railroad). Once linear space like that is gone, it reverts back to original owners and ensuing development will effectually kill any chance of that space ever opening up again.

Chances are, the railroad was built when there were a lot more wide-open spaces in this country. With each abandonment, that linear open space disappears.

A real shame.

Anyone with a future need for that land can always negotiate a fair price with the reverted landowner, just like the railroad originally had to.

Of course, market conditions won't make that cheap, but that is just business.

Keeping that land vacant with no one paying property tax year after year just because someone MIGHT want to build a rail road some day, seems a little foolish as well. Especially when there is a farmer or other entity involved, who can put the land to good use, after re-aquiring.

Contemplate if you will, a large wheat farmer who sold an easement across his field, bisecting it in two because the RR wanted it that way..

After many years the line is abandoned, a scrapper buys the rail, and the land just sits.

Why SHOULDN'T the farmer make his farm whole again?

[DaveBr]

Has anyone thought about changing the time for 12 hours? for the train schedule.Whereas the people that ride the train could see different sceanery.
Would that take a lot or little work? Davebr. Thats on all the long
distance trips.

[FJ and G]

The Anti Gates

Depends on your definition of "public good." Years, decades, actually a century or more (most likely) when the land was used for the railroad, it was deemed in the public's interest. Most of the original landowners have been dead for a long long time.

To make use of the RR now for the linear space reasons I listed, would, of course depend on how one values the land for the public's good.

I believe a few states (Okla., NH, etc), have acquired rights b/c they believe it to be in the public good. Others have chosen not to.