Interesting Little Incident On The BNSF

[Anonymous]

whatever, clown.

[richardy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ironken

whatever, clown.

My point exactly!

[zardoz]

QUOTE: Originally posted by richardy
If they ban scanners in all states, as ironken prefers, the criminals would still have receivers of some kind if they needed to monitor communications for their purpose. It seems the fact that scanners are illegal during the commission of a bigger crime would not matter to them. So banning scanners just removes another harmless hobby from the innocent people.

Exactly.

Who's mostly in favor of anti-gun laws? The criminal! Life is much easier for them if they know the citizens cannot protect themselves.

The point is, as richardy stated, is that passing laws restricting freedoms only affects law-abiding people, as they are the only ones that will pay any heed to the laws. The criminal (by definition) does not, and cannot, care about laws.

[eolafan]

Next thing we are likely to see is 50 cal. machine guns mounted on the locomotives and used to shoot railfans and a big sign on the sides of the box cars saying "Welcome to Osama, as long as you don't take pictures or use a scanner".

[Anonymous]

Kinda says it all!

[canazar]

Oh man, I am going to step in it now, ..but... been biting back and I havebeen reading some of your thoughts, now here is mine. You will either agree or disagree. Either support it, or will hate me. Fine.


Some of you guys yack and complain so much about your loss of rights and "the Terrosits won!" You should sit down and take a good look around....... a REALLY good look around and be thankful instead of [banghead]ing.

If Big Brother wants to look over my shoulder and watch me pee.... Fine, I dont care... I am proud how it swings in the wind.

My family lives in this country. If it means keeping safer cause some guy wants to ask me questions...? FIne, mind if I grab a seat, I got nothign to hide.

You want to see what life is like when its really bad? Wanna know how scary life could be? Want to know what the one of the most life dangering things you could do? Ride a bus to work in Isreal. Heaven for bid you want to go out and have dinner......

On, Sept 12, 2001how many people were complaining we didnt do enough? . Amazing how so many of you have gone back to thinking its Sept 10th.

I am sorry, how many terror attacks have we had since? Exactly. Obivously, something has worked and some poeple are busting their***to keep up the record. If someone asking me some question is my part. Hell yeah ask away, I am an American, how can I help?

Anyone remember the little dereailiment of the Amtrak here in Phoenix back in the early 90's? Pretty sure that was a white dude (s). Some poeple in the G Squad havent forgotten that one, like alot havent forgotten what happen to the in LA back in the 30's.

Hate to break it to you people, but waching trains is kinda wierd and fairly unknown in this day and age to people who dont know about us. So yeah, you got a bunch eletrical equipment in the car and some bad***photo gear standing by yourself? Guess what, better be prepared to explain your self. Doesnt bother me. In fact, I have made some pretty good RR freinds cause, someone said, "Excuse me, what are you doing?"


Oh, cause you think your a middle age white dude thst gives you a get of jail free card cause your not a terrorist? Freakin please...... Anyone on law enforcement knows some guy who is 2 bit terrorist wont stand there, they will pay a white guy to do it.

You see trains and Oh My God! An unpatched whatever.... Mr-G man sees you stareing at the most senseitive mode of transprortation and hunderds of cars of chemicals, gasses, and military shippments.

You see this country owes you. I see it as I am greatful to be in this country.


Done ranting. Sorry if I offend you, I am sorry. Above rant is my opinion. chances are then what you wrote, offended me.

Best Regards,
John

[eolafan]

Oh, I agree with you fully...the only thing I would like to suggest is "we" spend more time and resources going after the "kingpins" like Bin Laden and less breaking down little doors of some poor *** in Baghad who somebody "screwed over" just to get a little juice with the man. Just like the cops getting their giggles over arresting a local street peddler of drugs while the drug kingpins are going fee. Kill off the kingpins and the rest will wither and die on the vine for lack of anybody to lead them. This works for just about any criminal or terrorist enterprise or group.

[zardoz]

canazar,
I happen to agree with most of what you wrote. However, I believe that what we railfans experience is just a tiny bit of what is happening to our country. Yes, this arguably the best country to live in. For now.

What bothers me are the trends I see:

Loss of an individual's right to protest wherever they want.

Erosion of the right to free speech.

The near-elimination of our 4th Amendment rights against unlawful (read "just because the cop suspects") searches.

Being seen as a "traitor" if you question the actions of the government instead of blindly believing everything they tell us.

And a lack of "terror" attacks does not in any way imply that anything the government has done regarding the harrassment of citizens has made the slightest difference; you attribute effect to a cause, even though you merely imply the cause.

And I do not think anyone that is operating with their lights on has gone back to thinking it is 9/10. The Patriot Act has seen to that (interesting how those laws were named "Patriot Act"; perhaps that was done so that anyone who questioned any of it could be reduced to a "non-patriot", which to some people feel is just one step away from being labeled a terrorist.

And the reason I complain about the loss of rights is BECAUSE I "sat down and took a good look around".

Every law that has passed that in some way restricts our freedoms has always been paraded as something we "need" to protect yourselves, either from some external evil empire, or from ourselves.

For example: seat belt laws. Who the hell is that supposed to protect? Me? What if I do not like to wear them? What if I am more converned about being hit broadside and having the seatbelt hold me in place as the other car crashes through the driver's door? Should I not be able to choose for myself the level of safety I need? And is it just a coincidence that most states have now passed laws the give the piggies the right to pull you over for not wearing one? Whom am I risking other than myself? A victimless crime if I've ever heard of one. Yet we have these new laws.

Are we so afraid of death that we are willing to live an existence that is so much less than what the Lord must have intended for us? For a people that claim to be so religious, we sure seem afraid of meeting the maker. Seems rather contradictory, doesn't it?

And I can assure you, that if my wife/mother/father/brother/whatever was killed in the 9/11 attacks, and someone asked me if I would be willing to give up personal liberties for the rest of my life to save them, I would decline the offer. And if a relative of mine would be asked the same thing to save my life, I would be outraged if they agreed.

I value freedom and liberty that much! As a famous man once said, and most citizens have forgotten, "Give Me Liberty of Give Me Death".

By turning this once-great-and-wonderful country into the United States of Surveilence, it seems to me that the very things we are trying to protect are things we have already lost.

[canazar]

Mr Z..

Well, I have to respectfully agree with you... Your right on alot of things . In this day in age alot of things have been taken to far. Civil laws, HAO's, imposeing in our descions and choices being made by others because they think they know more about me than I do Who the hell are you to tell me I cant smoke when I want to? I like my guns thank you. No, it is Merry Chrsitmas. I will say the Pledge they way it was ment. I do not fear God . My own quote I like so much..., This is one country that will put the wants of so few, above the needs of so many.

But my point of my post was not above the freedoms and point of poiltical debates, and the turn of country in a whole. Yes, it is changeing, but it is a changieng world. Like the Steam, to F, to AC. The world is changeing and the rules have to as well. The bigger, the village, the more idoits you will have.

It was about railfanning. In general and if you read some of the posts, some strong, some weak, but the scent of "our world is coing to an end and we are goign to go to jail cause we a got scanner" is there, and that just rubbed me the wrong way. It is is the way it is, perosnally, I do not think it is that bad as everyone says. For me and my son, it has been great. Just wish some folks would keep it real and quit haveing the attitude they are above others.

Best Regards
John k

[zardoz]

canazar:
Agreed.

Thanks, John.

Jim

[richardy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by canazar
[
If Big Brother wants to look over my shoulder and watch me pee.... Fine, I dont care... I am proud how it swings in the wind.

In Oklahoma that is a felony, it will get you arrested, fined and posted, including picture, on the registered sex offenders website for ten years with yearly photo update required. Oh, they don't post on the website what you were charged with so it looks like you are a real sex offender. Still want Big Brother looking over your shoulder?

[canazar]

QUOTE: Originally posted by richardy

QUOTE: Originally posted by canazar
[
If Big Brother wants to look over my shoulder and watch me pee.... Fine, I dont care... I am proud how it swings in the wind.

In Oklahoma that is a felony, it will get you arrested, fined and posted, including picture, on the registered sex offenders website for ten years with yearly photo update required. Oh, they don't post on the website what you were charged with so it looks like you are a real sex offender. Still want Big Brother looking over your shoulder?

You completely missed the point. Not sure if you misunderstood my post or were too busy trying to scare me to fully understand what I was saying. If Big Brother or the G-man wants to check on me, or check me out.... Fine. I have nothing to hide. Nothing. I got a good family, my gun is legal, I own a nice business, I pay taxes, my front yard is raked and I like football and the dog even has his tag. I take comfort in the fact the Goverment is looking for the bad guys. Because they missed the last time in Sept. Also didnt see some white guy named Tim coming either. I am sure you know who he was. Hey, I know it is a different world than it used to be. Thats a fact of life. I am perferctly willing to lose "just a little of my freedom or time of my day" to keep it all from some joker who wants to blow it all up. Or, what good is it to have all your freedom you want and privacy if the family you loved is dead. Hey, strong and cold I know, but thats the bottom line.

Real world example of what I mean.
2 months ago I went on a rail fanning trip along the BNSF Trans-Con around Flagstaff Arizona. I had pulled over off the I-40 on neighborhood rooad exit and walked up over a bridge that was over the railroad tracks. Small two-lane brige. Granted, I probably should not have been up there, no side walks and all but it was only 30 mph and traffic was very light. A train was coming and well, it was just too good of a spot to watch just one.

Well, wouldnt you know it, I was done, walking back down a Department of Public Safefty Officer pulled by. (Kind alike a State Trooper to some of you, or maybe Highway Patrolman) And slowed and asked if I was OK... "Oh yeah, I am sorry, was just upwathcing trains. I am parked down there" and pointed to my truck. "Oh, Ok" he said and pulled on away, but to my surpruse, he pulled up behind my truck that was parked just off the road in the dirt. Gues it was slow day and he was bored.

So, he gets out of the car just as I walk up. he had enough time before I got there to run my plate and call it in I am sure. "So, what brings you out here again?"

Now, this is where the "attitude" comes into play. Sure, didnt have much right to do anything. I could have said **** off and given him greif. In which case, he would for sure sweated me, wasted his time trackign me down, wanting to know why I was playing hard to get. He would have wasted energy and time on me that could have used, to get someone who was breaking the law or who was up to no good. At the minimum, the next guy he saw wathcing trains was going to get a bad, bad day.

But nope, I went all out to be nice guy. Thanks for doing your job. I coulda been a bad guy. Told why I was there, explained I was camping and over night road trip, hunting trains, what cat I say?. He asked for I.D., asked all the questions. Asked what was in the truck, "ya know got any weapons or drugs?". I said, "well since you mentioned it, I do have a hand gun in there", told him it was mine, legal, good to go, be more than happy to show it to you, in the red back pack. Looked in the back of the truck through the window and after a few said, "no, that's ok." He asked me some of the same questions again, to see if I was lieing. Nope told him the same responses agiain. Why not, its the truth. So after about 15 minutes of this, it turned to pleasent how's the weather chat. But then, I heard the horn and enough time had gone by, another one was coming... "Hey, go catch that one" pointing to my video camarea, "I got to go anyways" Have a nice day he said and on he went. I waved bye as I ran back up the bridge.




And thats it. Im off the[soapbox]

Best Regards
John K

[richardy]

I did not miss your point and I was not trying to scare you. I was presenting an example of the extemes that sometimes government will invoke predicated on our protection. I am all for the government protecting us but I'm not that confident, at least at the local level, they have the common sense to accompli***he task.

In OK the Highway Patrol have a ten contacts (not tickets) per eight hour shift quota. Wonder if AZ has something similar and you became a contact in his report?

[dharmon]

There is a delicate balance between defending, from a military point of view, or protecting from a LE POV, and not restricting freedoms. To answer the cries of something has to be done, the pendulum of action swings one direction. It may not always be the right course of action and will find criticism. The pendulum swings back the other way to the cry of civil liberty. The demands of complete protection and complete freedom, at no cost and without creating any hardship on anyone are making the social contract very difficult to maintain.

Dan

[zardoz]

QUOTE: Originally posted by canazar
Real world example of what I mean.
2 months ago I went on a rail fanning trip along the BNSF Trans-Con around Flagstaff Arizona. I had pulled over off the I-40 on neighborhood rooad exit and walked up over a bridge that was over the railroad tracks. Small two-lane brige. Granted, I probably should not have been up there, no side walks and all but it was only 30 mph and traffic was very light. A train was coming and well, it was just too good of a spot to watch just one.

Well, wouldnt you know it, I was done, walking back down a Department of Public Safefty Officer pulled by. (Kind alike a State Trooper to some of you, or maybe Highway Patrolman) And slowed and asked if I was OK... "Oh yeah, I am sorry, was just upwathcing trains. I am parked down there" and pointed to my truck. "Oh, Ok" he said and pulled on away, but to my surpruse, he pulled up behind my truck that was parked just off the road in the dirt. Gues it was slow day and he was bored.

So, he gets out of the car just as I walk up. he had enough time before I got there to run my plate and call it in I am sure. "So, what brings you out here again?"

Told why I was there, explained I was camping and over night road trip, hunting trains, what cat I say?. He asked for I.D., asked all the questions. Asked what was in the truck, "ya know got any weapons or drugs?". I said, "well since you mentioned it, I do have a hand gun in there", told him it was mine, legal, good to go, be more than happy to show it to you, in the red back pack. Looked in the back of the truck through the window and after a few said, "no, that's ok." He asked me some of the same questions again, to see if I was lieing. Nope told him the same responses agiain. Why not, its the truth. So after about 15 minutes of this, it turned to pleasent how's the weather chat. But then, I heard the horn and enough time had gone by, another one was coming... "Hey, go catch that one" pointing to my video camarea, "I got to go anyways" Have a nice day he said and on he went. I waved bye as I ran back up the bridge.
And thats it. Im off the[soapbox]

Best Regards
John K

And you do not feel that was over the bounds of the Fourth Amendment? Then I do not know if anything I could say will get you to reconsider.

After you told him what you were doing, and he said ok, that should have been the end of it. RIGHT THEN AND THERE. You gave him no reason for him to ask you those other questions, and especially no reason for him to want to search your vehicle. NO REASON WHATSOEVER. Unless you actually believe that what he was doing in any way enhanced the security of our country.

Don't get me wrong. If terrorists were actually responsible for the 9/11, then this country must do what it can to prevent this from happening again. But this can be done without turning the US into something resembling a totalitarian police state. And as long as most people seem willing to give up some of their rights for the illusion of safety, this situation will continue.

Where does it end? How far are you willing to let the authorities go to enhance your "safety". How about random house searches? Government monitoring of the internet? Sound absurd? We already must allow the cops to search your vehicle for "reasonable suspicion". And what exactly is "reasonable suspicion"? Long hair? No hair? Being a minority? Being white? Standing on public property just watching trains? Do I sound paranoid? You bet!! And for good reason.



BTW, canazar: I am not directing this specifically at you, even though I used your story as a catalyst for my rantings. I mean no disrespect.

[canazar]

None taken what so ever. This is good debate.

Well, I can see this issue from both sides. It wasnt that long ago I used to volunteer with the Sheriffs Office. I have been in that same postion enough times to know what he was thinking. You take any chance you can get to find the bad guy. Granted I havent done alot of stops, my a couple dozen, compared to others who do it for a living. You would be shocked how often people who are breaking the law, and yo woudl never expect it.

Good example of this? We working a large detail in part ofPhoenix when we saw a car over in a dark parkign lot. We pulled up to see what was the matter. We pull up and nice younger (middle 20's) lady in the car. I walked up and just to say hi and make sure she was ok. We were thining maybe car trouble or something. She was very nice indeed, never had any reason to wonder. She said she just pulled over to check directions on her map and didnt want to be in the street. Oh, good on you then Mam, have nice eveing. As my partner turned, to walk away, he caught a glimpse of a bottle shoved down in between the seats. Long story short. She was legally drunk, was arrested for DUI and her 3 year old daughter was taken out of the back seat and given to the father who had to come pick her up. We never knew she was drunk. Didnt smell it, didnt think about it. Never even looked for it. But there she was, a woman driving around drunk with a little girl in the back seat.

Now granted, my deal was kinda of a stretch. But same rules aplly. looking back what happend to me? Nothing. I spent a few extra minutes of mine time and spent more shootin the breeze with a cool dude. And I got to see another train out of it.

I can see how you will see it as overbearing. I just see it differently since I have been on the other side of the coin. Its tough. People yell you for harrasing them. Then they yell at you cause you dint see the bad guy steal your stero. . He was just doing his job keeping all types of baddies off the street.

To each his own I suupose. Par tof life. That why we have regular, and light beer[:)]

[domefoamer]

How many photos of a train do you need to figure out how to place a bomb, twist a rail or otherwise disrupt its progress? All these secrets have been caught on film, from "The General" through countless Western movies. And how many photos do you need to figure out a train's schedules and vulnerabilities? None. How many blurry photos of trains can you make surreptitiously, from a cell phone camera or a passing car? As many as you want. So why would a serious terrorist plant himself in official view, wasting his time and maximizing his visibility? He wouldn't, except as a diversion from some actual attack. All this harassment of rail photographers amounts to is operational practice and CYA measures for the security squads.

[domefoamer]

Wait, I get it now. They're on the lookout for the fearsome photographer known as Anz El Adumz. Recognizable by the black prayer shroud he wears on his head as he pivots his large-format camera east, towards Mecca...

[techguy57]

(Warning: May be considered off-topic by some)[}:)]

Canazar, Zardoz, Eolafan, dharmon among others- I just wanted to say that even though there are some here who'd be upset because this thread is only vaguely discussing trains I'm glad to be able to talk with you guys about this kind of thing. It is good to know that regardless of what side of the political fence each of sits on (of course some of us probably straddle it too[:D]) that we can discuss our views and not simply throw a fit if someone disagrees with our opinions and beliefs.

I do hope you guys didn't misconstrue my posting about the scanners, I don't see any harm in them myself, I was just trying to illustrate that sometimes we, as a society, can be commiting minor infractions of the law without even knowing it. I didn't ever think that operating my scanner while in the car would be an issue, but had the Michigan Highway patrolman decided to make it one, be it of his own accord or from my giving him reasonable suspicion, he could have made it an issue. Thankfully we both decided to be cool about it and let it go. He gave me a warning (very nicely as well) and I simply turned the scanner off. We both understood that since I was from out of state I probably didn't know better and that was it. I hate using ignorance as an excuse, but in this case it was no big deal, kinda a "no harm, no foul" situation. Please understand that I am in no way claiming that by having to turn off my scanner equals the end of civilized society nor does it equate with the loss of my civil liberties. As I said, I was simply referring to the situation to call attention to other situations that might occur.

(Warning: Next section may be considered me on my soap box)[soapbox]
I understand that the folowing is not what you were arguing John (canazar) but I personally think there is merit in discussing it further. It is the right of anyone reading this to agree or disagree with my statements. All I ask is you do so in a respectful manner.

I'm relatively a young buck at the age of 27(well, I will be in like 2 weeks)and those of you who have chatted with me before know I'm not shy about giving my opinion. I tend to see thing from a similar standpoint as Zardoz. I see an erosion of not only our civli liberties, but the rights granted to us by our country's constitution. I don't mind playing by the rules, but why should I be expected to if the elected officials (politicians to sheriffs to judges) of this country don't have to play by a simlar set of rules. You can call me a bleeding-heart liberal or whatever you like but that doesn't change the fact that when the President of the United States (for the record, I'd feel this way no matter the last name of the President) goes on the air "live" and says he can order surveilance and bypass court orders because he is the Commander-in-Chief it makes me squirm a bit. I'm concerned because as he is the President of the United States, one of the most important leaders in the world and in a extremely high profile position of power, I feel he should want to go through the proper channels so as it would appear to those not as familiar with our country that he isn't attempting to abuse his powers. This country was founded with checks and balances in mind and, in my opinion, this is a situation it is easy to see why. I won't even go into detail regarding my thoughts on the secret intercepting of terror suspects.

I'm not so naive to believe that things like this haven't happened before. I'm quite sure that they have. But times indeed are changing. Technology is making information on anything and everything more and more readily available and like it or not we have to accept the truth of it. Our techniques and plans need to change too. We need to understand that in order to make allies we need to treat them in the manner that they actually want to be treated, not how we think they want to be treated. Most importantly we have to be aware that while 9/11 showed how resilient and unified we can be as a nation, it also showed that even the great United States are vulnerable.

As Dan said earlier, security is a fine line. I do understand this. But its also a two-way street if we are truly a country founded on freedom from oppression. Those out there enforcing do need to have some weight to throw around in order to keep this country secure. But they also need to be aware so that they aren't crossing the line abusing that very same power.

Thanks for some great debate guys and thanks for letting me put in my [2c]

Mike

[wadegexe]

The stretch of BNSF mainline east of Everett Wa to Snohomish is a good place to combine two hobbies, bicycling the county road and railfanning. Many good photos of crews and trains come from there, some of them of the crew snapping a shot of me! Only time I ever had a problem with anyone was when I caught a person in a plain sedan pointing his radar gun at a westbound stack train entering Lowell yard outside Everett. He got awfully upset at me and threatened to call the police if I didn't stop. Seeing as he was parked on a city street, I just smiled and pedalled on. Remember, it's just a hobby.

[route_rock]

Ok here it is in a nut shell folks.
1 Government monitoring of the internet? Already goes on. Your ina public forum NSA can come in and read what you write. So what about e-mails? I can go to your server and track your e-mail and even read it if so inclined. Encrypt it you say? No Such Agency again my friends!
2. Who did the pres say he authorized those so called eavesdropping tapes to be done on?AAnyone calling in from a known terrorist hotbed and any one calling out to them.Its LEGAL FOLKS! You are transmitting radio waves on a cell phone or a sat phone and I can hear them too if I want to with my scanner. Nothing in the Constitution about listening in to cell phone calls picked up by a sattelitte over the said areas. Canada listens to us we listen to them. We share info thats the way it is.
Matter of fact just by mentioning NSA I bet some crazy program picks it up and they scrutinize me . Whatever like posted before nothing to hide. Point is I dont see Gestapo officers kicking your doors down, I dont see people shot in the streets or being oppressed or loss of civil liberties. You have fallen for hte hype my friends. i will go with Rons best line " Trust but verify"
Here it is, the people clamoring about this knew about it for over a year!!! They are mad the elections in Iraq went well so lets start a full scale flame of the pres claiming how hes doing somehting illegal to americans! As bad as Kerry lying about our troops and that Murtha moron saying the army is a shambles! 30 years my butt he was a reservist over 3/4 of that period.Anything for a sound byte I swear. K off the soap box now .
BTW I see a railfan out on my stretch of BNSF I wont call the cops, I may take your pic as a joke ;) But I am not that anal about getting a reward .

[zardoz]

QUOTE: Originally posted by route_rock
Its LEGAL FOLKS! You are transmitting radio waves on a cell phone or a sat phone and I can hear them too if I want to with my scanner. Nothing in the Constitution about listening in to cell phone calls picked up by a sattelitte over the said areas.

Point is I dont see Gestapo officers kicking your doors down, I dont see people shot in the streets or being oppressed or loss of civil liberties. You have fallen for hte hype my friends.
Here it is, the people clamoring about this knew about it for over a year!!! They are mad the elections in Iraq went well so lets start a full scale flame of the pres claiming how hes doing somehting illegal to americans! As bad as Kerry lying about our troops and that Murtha moron saying the army is a shambles! 30 years my butt he was a reservist over 3/4 of that period.Anything for a sound byte I swear. K off the soap box now .
BTW I see a railfan out on my stretch of BNSF I wont call the cops, I may take your pic as a joke ;) But I am not that anal about getting a reward .

Lets see, where do I start?
Actually, it IS illegal in the US to modify a scanner to receive cell phone transmssions. Some of the older scanners (made before cell phones came on line) could pick up in the 800mhz band, but any scanner built within about 10 years is designed to bypass those frequencies. I see no problem there: a phone call should be private.

As far as your gestapo comment, and also about being shot in the stgreets. Rather an extreme example, don't you think? But if it ever comes to that, historians will point to this time as when it all began.

You do not see anyone oppressed or denied civil liberties?????????? Perhaps your age has something to do with that. You have spent most of your adult life living under these conditions, so it is unlikely you would notice it. That's one of the things that concerns me. Young people growing up these days have no idea of what liberties people in the US once had. So they have no reason to be upset. As long as they can download their favorite pop hits, and play their video games, all is right with the world. The only hype I see is the propaganda purveyed by the fox "news" channel.

And what was all that about the president, and starting a flame war? You are the one trying to incite. Please do not turn this into a partisan argument. Kerry, Bush, whatever. The House and Senate are far more responsible for policy than the figurehead of the president. They're all puppets. I just wonder who is pulling their strings.

And yes, I know about how the government can already monitor emails with the Eschelon computers. After all, DARPA was the agency most responsible for developing the internet in the first place. And most of the 13 servers that run the internet are located in the US.

My point is that if "We The People" do not stop this government abuse of power soon, eventually we will not be ale to stop it at all. Eventually there will be a law prohibiting you from doing something you like to do. THEN you will cry, and wonder how it could have got that way.

[techguy57]

QUOTE: Originally posted by route_rock

Who did the pres say he authorized those so called eavesdropping tapes to be done on?AAnyone calling in from a known terrorist hotbed and any one calling out to them.Its LEGAL FOLKS! You are transmitting radio waves on a cell phone or a sat phone and I can hear them too if I want to with my scanner. Nothing in the Constitution about listening in to cell phone calls picked up by a sattelitte over the said areas. Canada listens to us we listen to them. We share info thats the way it is.

Route Rock-
I'm not questioning the legality of the wire taps and eavesdropping. The issues I take are two-fold:
1)- As you said, "Anyone calling in from a known terrorist hotbed and any one calling out" being monitored as a terrorist threat, in my opinion, is extreme. That's not to say I don't understand the rationale behind it, I just don't agree with it. Our country was founded on freedom and our legal system founded on the idea that we are innocent until proven guilty. In this case it seems we aren't practicing what we preach. We are considering any one in this category guilty until they prove otherwise and even then we are still holding them under suspicion. Again I do understand the President's and even our government's motives however I don't think we are acting as a perfect example to the fledgling democratic Iraq we are supposed to be mentoring.
2)-I repeat my statement that I would feel uncomfortable with the President of the United States claiming it was okay for him to order surveilance and bypass the noraml process of having a judge provide a court order regardless if the President's last name was Bush, Clinton, Roosevelt, Lincoln or Washington. It may be a small issue and it may be that is there is plenty of precedent by those who have occupied the office prior to our current President, it still makes me nervous that a President would insinuate, no matter how petty the subject matter, that being Commander-in-Chief can supplant legal safeguards. Again, I don't think it sets a good example of democracy, especially in countries already looking at us with a critical eye. It's bad form.

Finally, thanks for realizing that all of us nutjobs who like trains aren't a threat[:)] What can we say other than it's an odd hobby but a fun one. Next time I'm down in your neck of the woods I'll be sure to wave. [:D]

Mike

[vsmith]

Very very funny reading all this about listening to telephone broadcast signals and whether its legal or not...

Anyone here remember the first generation of cordless phones back in the late 70's and early 80's? like the retro one Sarah Jessica Parker has in her apt in the early episodes of Sex and the City? The big one with the big ol antenna on it? yes, that one, Well a friend (back in the day) told me that early analog phones like those used RADIO waves to transmit and that if you knew where to tune on your home stereo you could actually here them talking! I didnt believe it till he showed me how he could tune into his neighbors (who had one) phone by him calling him up and me listening in another room! Perfectly legal! Anything you can receive over an open frequency is perfectly legal to listen to, like CB's or shortwave HAMM radio. Remember those?

Ah those were the days! Radio Shack still sold radio kits, Computers were still the realm of thick lensed geeks (and a 186 processor was cutting edge!), new cars still had carburators, Pac-Man was cutting edge game technology, and no one had ever heard of the Internet save a few professors and researchers. [:D]

[StillGrande]

QUOTE: Originally posted by richardy

QUOTE: Originally posted by canazar
[
If Big Brother wants to look over my shoulder and watch me pee.... Fine, I dont care... I am proud how it swings in the wind.

In Oklahoma that is a felony, it will get you arrested, fined and posted, including picture, on the registered sex offenders website for ten years with yearly photo update required. Oh, they don't post on the website what you were charged with so it looks like you are a real sex offender. Still want Big Brother looking over your shoulder?

Wow! going to the bathroom is a felony in Oklahoma! No wonder the people there are so angry! [:D]

[richardy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by StillGrande

QUOTE: Originally posted by richardy

QUOTE: Originally posted by canazar
[
If Big Brother wants to look over my shoulder and watch me pee.... Fine, I dont care... I am proud how it swings in the wind.

In Oklahoma that is a felony, it will get you arrested, fined and posted, including picture, on the registered sex offenders website for ten years with yearly photo update required. Oh, they don't post on the website what you were charged with so it looks like you are a real sex offender. Still want Big Brother looking over your shoulder?

Wow! going to the bathroom is a felony in Oklahoma! No wonder the people there are so angry! [:D]

If you are not in a designated restroom, yeppers.

[BigJim]

QUOTE: We'd better watch out for those railfans. Everybody knows they're crazy and no one knows what they're liable to do.
The Art Bell Conspiricy Squad.[alien]

That's pretty good. I will admit that I do have to tune into the ol' ding dong just to hear what to look out for next[alien][alien][alien]

On a more serious note;
As a railroader, for the most part, I have had no problems with railfans. Many of them, I either know or am familiar with and they are well behaved and pose no danger to themselves or the RR.

I do have one nagging problem though that kind of sits in the far corners of my semi-conscious mind.

These guys with scanners and computers and being able to hear and see everything the dispatcher does. Well, it just doesn't sit quite right with me. Sure, it is a great tool for the honest railfan. In one way I'm glad for them. I know very well how boring it can be waiting on a train.

HOWEVER, with technology making such rapid advancements, how long will it be before someone figures out how to start throwing switches and changing signals? Hopefully at least not until after I retire!

Any other T&E's out there have a thought on this?

[chad thomas]

What differance does it make weather someone up to no good has a scanner or not?

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by chad thomas

What differance does it make weather someone up to no good has a scanner or not?

Chad Chad Chad....If you DIDNT want to ride the Runaway Train...

...you shouldnt have gotten on at the last station![;)][:o)][:p]

[:D]

[chad thomas]

Hmm, A runnaway train that makes station stops? Only if I can stand on the cab of a old Geep doing 50+ in a sub zero snow storm, and headed for boarded up tunnel at the end of the line.[;)]